Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Neuberger Excerpts

Friday 18th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neuberger (LD)]

My Lords, as many noble Lords know, last year I chaired the panel reviewing the use of the Liverpool care pathway. It is important that we found no evidence that it had been used to hasten people’s deaths, but it was nevertheless clear that many older people, who often have complex physical and emotional needs, were frightened that it might be used in that way. The sense of vulnerability of older people, particularly in hospital, emerged time and again. Indeed, the Liverpool care pathway review only highlighted on a small scale what came out of the Mid Staffs inquiry: that where care is less than good, it is older people, particularly the most vulnerable, who receive the worst care and are the most frightened. They should be able to trust their healthcare professionals, and now, for reasons of poor care, sometimes they do not.

That is why I do not believe that the decisions about who should receive medication to terminate their own lives should rest with doctors or our healthcare system more generally. Indeed, it is unclear that doctors themselves want to be the gatekeepers for this. Although I do not entirely oppose the prescription of drugs for the ending of people’s lives in very limited circumstances, the Liverpool care pathway review and my pastoral experience have taught me to be very careful indeed about the involvement of healthcare professionals in this matter, and I would prefer to see an examining magistrate, or High Court judge, as the person who scrutinises whether a person is of sound mind and is clear that they want to do it and is not being pressurised by relatives or others. I totally take on board what my noble and learned friend Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood said about the decision of the Supreme Court in the Nicklinson case, but nevertheless I think the principles apply. In that case, my noble kinsman-in-law, who is the president of the court, said:

“Indeed, it appears to me that it may well be that the risks to the weak and vulnerable could be eliminated or reduced to an acceptable level, if no assistance could be given to a person who wishes to die unless and until a Judge of the High Court has been satisfied that his wish to do so was voluntary, clear, settled and informed”.

An examining magistrate might also apply.

Secondly, there is the timeframe of six months. I speak as the daughter of a mother who had a prognosis of a few weeks but was in the care of the North Camden palliative care team for five years. There are many others around of whom that could be said. Six months seems arbitrary and, as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries of Pentregarth, said, possibly even unkind because suffering that is longer than six months is suffering that we should take even more seriously.

Thirdly, it does not seem to me that the requirement in the Bill that someone comes with the drugs and is with you while you do it or takes them away if you do not is the right way to go forward. My pastoral care experience is that those who want it want it for reassurance, a form of comfort blanket, if you like. They want to have the wherewithal there should they become desperate. This proposal goes nowhere towards that. If people are worried about the drugs afterwards going on to the open market, we should remember that people who have palliative care at home often have far more dangerous drugs around and no one worries that much about them.

I believe that although there is an argument for allowing people to have the wherewithal to kill themselves in very limited circumstances, this Bill does not provide sufficient safeguards and leaves too much power in the hands of doctors. I therefore oppose the Bill as it stands, but not the nub of the principle within it.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Baroness Neuberger Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Benjamin]

My Lords, I would not normally speak in a debate such as this, but this matter is very close to my heart. I thank my noble friend for bringing forward the amendment and, most of all, thank the Minister for his response. I hope that this provision will be embedded in our society to make sure that people of diverse backgrounds feel as if they matter and that people care.

[Baroness Neuberger]

My Lords, as noble Lords know, I chaired the Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity a couple of years ago. I have had lengthy conversations with the Minister on this subject. I am absolutely delighted—and want to place it on record—that we have Amendment 8 and that this commitment is now on the statute book. This really is a wonderful day.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, the Opposition are delighted to join in this outbreak of consensus and congratulate the Minister on a very statesmanlike response.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Baroness Neuberger Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warnock]

My Lords, I had no intention whatever of entering this debate but it seems to me that there is quite a serious analogy here between the teaching profession at the top level and the legal profession. There is no doubt that in a school, particularly a boarding school, part-time members of the staff, although they are respected and have authority, are not regarded as the most senior, reliable and ready to sacrifice their time. They are not, in fact, of the same level of authority as the full-time members of staff. Nothing would be more destructive of the trust which the general public have in the senior judiciary than if the Supreme Court were divided among the “real” members and the “unreal” members—the part-timers who could not take on the really difficult and complicated cases.

I rely on this analogy strongly to support the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, because I believe that, for one thing, it is quite uncertain that this provision would have the apparently desired effect of encouraging more women to come forward; and quite apart from that, it would have the disastrous consequence of dividing the Supreme Court between the top and the lower levels.

[Baroness Neuberger]

My Lords, not being a lawyer, I enter this debate with a certain amount of nervousness. However, I did chair the Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity, and I support everything that my noble friend Lord Pannick said. I disagree with the amendment for one very important reason. I want to add to what my noble friend said one important fact which comes from the evidence that the panel took from individuals and various bodies when compiling our report.

You could not put a sheet of paper between the six members of the panel, one of whom was a Court of Appeal judge, in our clear belief that flexible working ought to be available to the most senior levels. We did not necessarily use the word “part-time” because we thought that there were other ways of doing it rather than the conventional two days on, three days off. When we spoke to women who were thinking about whether they should apply to the Judicial Appointments Commission to go to the High Court, we were told time and again that unless some form of flexible working was available, they would find it very difficult.

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[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords, I rise to speak as the former chairman of the Judicial Appointments Commission. I have put my name to this amendment because I feel very strongly about this issue. I absolutely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks, have said. I think everyone now recognises that promoting diversity is a common endeavour—a joint effort to be made by the judiciary, the Ministry of Justice, the Lord Chancellor and the JAC. It is therefore important that all three have statutory responsibility, because that will focus their minds. As someone who was responsible for giving effect to the statutory responsibility of the JAC, I was always mindful of the fact that the focus really was on the JAC. Others sat around the table and said, “What is the JAC going to do?”

At Second Reading, the Minister said that this would be gesture politics. This is not gesture politics; it is about getting people to take responsibility, because there are a range of things that are outwith the responsibility of the JAC, where efforts need to be made. If your Lordships heard the debate earlier on the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, concerning part-time working, you can see how formidable the opposition can be. We need to change that culture, impose that duty on others and provide an opportunity so that real progress can be made.

[Baroness Neuberger]

My Lords, as noble Lords will know, I chaired the Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity, and I support all those who have already spoken. I love the analogy of the pregnant snail. It is now two and a half years since we reported, and with all the amazing good will that there has been—and there has been considerable good will, not least from the Minister, who has met with me regularly to see how we can take this further—the progress has been lamentably slow. It is therefore hugely important that the message is sent out widely that this is a statutory duty that applies not only to the Judicial Appointments Commission but much more widely. I particularly believe that we should also extend this to the Supreme Court.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Baroness Neuberger Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I have to say that if I was a member of a body charged with selecting a Lord Chief Justice or a president of the Supreme Court, no Lord Chancellor, however strong willed, would make me change my views unless his arguments were extremely persuasive; and I would expect the same respect for my views. We are not talking about a group of pussycats; we are talking about some very senior figures with great experience. I can see that those who have attended this Committee do not agree, but the simple fact is that we consider that our proposals strike the right balance in providing both the legitimate accountability for the executive in these roles and an independent and transparent process. They take away a political veto and put in its place a transparent involvement in a selection. I have set that out very clearly for the Committee.

[Baroness Neuberger]

I am sorry to ask the Minister this, but surely the presence of the Lord Chancellor on a committee of selection is a political statement in itself. It is worrying that the Minister should say that it removes a political presence. It just moves the position from what is a very public veto if, at the end of an independent process, the Lord Chancellor decides that he does not wish to go along with a recommendation to something that is less public but just as political. I find that really worrying, and I know that I am on record as saying that it is a constitutional disgrace.

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[Lord Woolf]

My Lords, just for the sake of the record and having put my name on this amendment, I make it clear that I support it for the reasons so admirably given by those who have spoken, including the noble Lord, Lord Deben. If I may say so, he showed remarkable acuity as somebody who is not a lawyer in contributing to this debate.

[Baroness Neuberger]

My Lords, perhaps I may add to the debate as another non-lawyer. Indeed, I totally agree with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and I very much hope that the Government will take this on board. I know that the Minister has himself been involved in the judicial diversity task force, of which the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor are in fact members. One of the criticisms that the Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity has made since it reported two years ago is that progress by that task force has in fact been remarkably slow. Although it has met, not a great deal has happened. I know that the Minister feels much the same. It therefore seems to me all the more important that there be a statutory duty on the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice, as well as on the Judicial Appointments Commission, to promote diversity. I really hope that the Government will take that on board.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

As a former judge I very strongly support the amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I would particularly like to endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, with which I entirely agree. It is a very good thing when we get some non-lawyers reminding us, but he can be assured that former senior judges support him on this.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Baroness Neuberger Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

If I may respond to the noble and learned Lord, it seems to me that it has to be one of the possibilities in the whole panoply open to those making appointments. I do not imagine that it would happen very often but it might be that someone exceptional could be appointed who would say, “I will sit during these parts of the year and will be available to you then”. I do not believe that that would bring about resentment from other colleagues once they saw the quality of the work done by people of real ability.

[Baroness Neuberger]

Much of what I had wanted to say has been said by others, notably by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy and Lady Jay. I chaired the Advisory Panel on Judicial Diversity and we took a great deal of evidence from both men and women who were either judges or interested in becoming judges. Of the many components needed to create a more diverse judiciary, flexible working was pretty near the top of the list. It was near the top of the list for people in their late 50s and in their 60s, who were not on the whole talking about looking after children—although, like the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I think one ends up worrying about one’s children for ever—but about caring for elderly parents.

Increasingly, because we are living longer, people in their 60s are caring for parents in their 80s and 90s. It is likely that people who are going to work as much as they possibly can in their 60s may still need to work more flexibly than was hitherto the case because they need to look after, or make sure that somebody else is looking after elderly parents. That point was made to me almost as much by men as by women and almost as much by solicitors as by people who came from the Bar. We must make provision for flexible working given the way that our population is ageing and that we are likely to look after parents in our 60s and 70s.

Therefore, the need to be more creative and flexible in how we think about these issues has never been greater. That was felt very strongly by people from whom we took evidence. Those people, including some members of the present High Court, also said that to them flexible working was not about working two days one week and three days the next, but about working possibly for nine or 10 months of the year and simply taking slightly more holiday than other people. That holiday, which would in fact be to allow them to carry out their responsibilities, would simply have to be factored into the system. Sending out a message to the wider world that we are not prepared to consider flexible working for the judiciary when we consider it for every other profession in the country would look very strange indeed.

[Baroness Northover]

I suggest that the debate on Amendment 115 be adjourned and that the Committee does not resume again before 8.20 pm.

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[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

I regret to say that the difficulty of that is that when one talks about equal merit one is in danger of infringing the very first requirement that all appointments must be made solely on merit and the view that has been expressed over and over again that that is not a threshold. That view was rejected by the Constitution Commission, which said that it is wrong to regard merit as a threshold, which the noble Baroness appears to have done—and perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, too. It is not a threshold. You have to get the best person.

[Baroness Neuberger]

Can I make clear what the advisory panel said on this matter? We were quite clear that the principle of selection on individual merit remains. The point that we were trying to make is that that depends on how you define merit. Your definition of merit may not be identical with mine or with that of the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. We have a way of dealing with merit. The Judicial Appointments Commission has merit criteria against which we measure. Those criteria have recently been changed in relation to some of the things that may help in these diversity questions. We said that where people were of equal merit and you could not distinguish to say that one was better than another, you could then use the tipping point. Some people have liked that and some have not. Since we now have the availability of that in legislation, all six of us—without being able to put a sheet of paper between us—agreed that that was the right way to go.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

I am still replying to the debate and the debate is still going on but it is quite apparent that I will not persuade the noble Baronesses. In those circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.