Registration of Marriage Bill [HL]

Baroness Meacher Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 26th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I wholeheartedly support the Bill and congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans on sponsoring it. It is long past the time when mothers’ names should have appeared on marriage registers and I share the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, that it is truly remarkable that it has taken all these many years to reach this point.

I particularly support the comments which I believe will be made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell—the speaking order is not ideal but we will manage—about the need for legal recognition of humanist marriages and the opportunity for this Bill to bring that about.

I introduced the amendment to the same sex marriage Act 2013 which provided for legal recognition of humanist marriages. The objective of my amendment was taken up by the Government, who tabled their own amendment making provision in law for humanist marriages to be legally recognised, a move that had broad support in both Houses. This is nothing controversial. The limitation of the Government’s amendment, however, was that it required a ministerial order to bring this provision into being.

Since then I have patiently attended many meetings with Ministers who have assured us that they are making progress. However, we are now in 2018 and this section of the 2013 Act remains to be brought into effect. The aim of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, as I understand it, is simply to ensure that progress is made on this issue. Legal recognition of humanist marriages would be hugely popular and would require nothing else except adding the term “humanist marriages” in some document which already provides special provisions for Quaker marriages. It is not exactly complex or time consuming. Given Brexit, I understand that one cannot have time-consuming matters, but this is not one of those.

When humanist marriages are already overwhelmingly popular in Scotland, Ireland and elsewhere, surely it is past time that legal recognition is given in this country. I therefore hope there will be a consensus across the House that, five years after the law permitting legal recognition of humanist marriages was passed, a small amendment to this Bill to activate this provision should be agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the point I am making is that to amend the existing law on marriage to make provision for legally valid humanist ceremonies would involve a huge range of issues.

[Baroness Meacher]

It is already in law that humanist marriages should be recognised legally—all it needs is a ministerial order. It does not need, in a sense, to be in this Bill. What would be wonderful would be an assurance from the Minister that she will take forward the need—with some urgency, five years on—for a ministerial order and have it done. It does not need any further legislative change.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What the noble Baroness says is quite helpful, and I am very happy to discuss this matter further. The point I am making today is that this is a very narrowly drawn Bill, and to expand on it in any way would risk the Bill in its passage through your Lordships’ House. I am simply pleading with noble Lords to stick to the content of the Bill. We can certainly have discussions about humanist marriages outside the Chamber, but this is the plea I am making. I am not denigrating in any way what noble Lords have said, but the minute we start adding to or amending Bills like this, the more we are in danger of them not securing their way through.

The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, asked to see draft regulations before Committee. It is our aim to make a draft of the affirmative regulations available before Committee. The noble Baroness also asked for clarification on the definition of parent. The regulations will prescribe who can be included under the headings for both sets of parents of the couple in the marriage entry. This will enable us to keep pace with societal developments as well as family composition changes.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked if there was an intention to reform marriage law. This Bill simply modernises marriage registration, as I have said, and facilitates changes to the register entry to allow the inclusion of both parents’ names. This Bill is not at all intended to include wider marriage reform.

My noble friend Lady Morris of Bolton asked a very valid question about what is put in the entry if you do not know who your parents, particularly your father, might be. There will be provision for both parents to be included in the marriage entry, and the option to leave this blank, as is the case now, I understand.

My noble friend Lady Seccombe asked for assurances that the cost of the marriage certificate will not be raised, as she is concerned that any additional costs and processes will discourage people from marrying. Fees for marriage certificates are set at a cost-recovery basis, using HM Treasury guidance, and are reviewed annually. The provisions of the Bill would not directly lead to an increase in costs.

The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, was, I think, so perfectly content with the Bill that she just thought she would talk about sharia marriages. But I think she knows that the scope of the Bill is narrowly about marriage registration.

Consumer and Personal Debt

Baroness Meacher Excerpts

Monday 23rd October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

I was nodding as the right reverend Prelate made his point about this irresponsible lending—it is very tempting—but of course the Financial Conduct Authority was set up to be an arm’s-length body and to advise the Government on what should be done. As he rightly says, the FCA has produced a report, which it is putting out to consultation, and will be announcing some policy changes in this area. Previously, we have seen the introduction of things such as fee-free bank accounts, which are now benefiting 4 million people, and the cap on payday loans—I pay tribute to the most reverend Primate’s role in bringing that about. These are making a practical difference to people and we need action there too.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

Is the Minister aware that as universal credit is rolled out, personal debt is going to increase to unprecedented levels? This is not the fault of the individuals but results from the fact that new claimants have to wait, on average, seven to eight weeks for their first payment. They then get a payment for four weeks. It is not possible for them to survive, and of course we know that their benefits are reduced by the bedroom tax and all the other things, and then debt withdrawals. We heard this morning at a meeting that apparently people are resorting to burglary in order to pay their debts. Can the Minister help them by consulting his colleagues?

[Lord Bates]

There is no need for people to engage in any of those kinds of activities. Help is there, including in the shape of the advance, which over 50% of people now take advantage of, and which can be based on that element. We need to remember that universal credit was brought in with cross-party support, with the very purpose that it would stop the perverse incentives which meant that, under the previous benefit system, people could work more hours and be worse off, and move them to a system where people would always be better off if they worked. We now need to address the details, which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is doing.

Mental and Physical Health: Insurance

Baroness Meacher Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, some 20% of GPs suffer from depression at some time during their careers, yet GPs rarely take time off work because of course they know that their colleagues have to cover for them; there just does not seem to be any provision. Does the Minister accept that the growing number of GPs who are retiring early, or who are cutting the number of sessions they work, could be greatly eased if doctors’ mental as well as physical ill health were properly dealt with? Despite the comments that he has already made, I ask him to take this very seriously in view of the incredible crisis in general practice because of the diminishing numbers of GP hours being worked.

[Lord Bates]

While we recognise the great service and the demands placed on GPs and their practices in this regard, most people who seek support, particularly for mental health issues, are not necessarily going through private healthcare providers but seeking it through the NHS and through GPs themselves. That is why it is important to put on record that the funding going into mental health services within the NHS is at record levels—it is now at £11.6 billion—and we have the Five Year Forward View for Mental Health, under which that figure will grow year on year. That is not to be at all complacent; we are very mindful and cognisant of those important strains and how they are responded to.

Health: HIV

Baroness Meacher Excerpts

Monday 17th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

I start by paying tribute to my noble friend for his outstanding work in this field, and not least for his new book, which I have been reading with great interest, AIDS: Don’t Die of Prejudice. He makes a very strong case not only for action in the United Kingdom—which, of course, he led on, and which I hope he will agree we have maintained—but for very active work overseas. It is by being inclusive, not stigmatising, and by making sure that prevention, treatment and care are all taken forward for everybody that we will indeed turn this around.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

Is the Minister aware that many people suffering with HIV are in fact addicted to drugs and that it is the interpretation of the UN conventions that is failing HIV patients and also failing the rest of the world? As 5.5 billion people do not have access to essential pain-relieving medicines, will the Minister support the guidance being prepared by the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Drug Policy Reform, which we are doing in conjunction with the Mexican, Colombian and Guatemalan Governments? Will she support that guidance on the reinterpretation of the UN conventions?

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Baroness is right to associate this with the use of drugs, and she will also know that in those countries that have addressed needle use HIV has been reduced—for example, in the United Kingdom it is minimal. We realise the significance of this challenge worldwide, particularly, for example, in eastern Europe. I will look closely at what she has suggested.

Children and Families Bill

Baroness Meacher Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, the noble and learned Baroness says that the judges would cope with Section 1 of the 1989 Act being amended by this but I do not think we want to wait for a judicial review as to exactly what would be meant if the new words were inserted in Section 1. If they were inserted in the form that we have in Clause 11, we would have Section 1(1) saying that welfare shall be the court’s paramount consideration—if that is not a presumption, I am even more concerned about it; then Section 1(2) saying that in dealing with delay the court shall have regard to that general principle; and then proposed new subsection 2A referring to presumption unless the contrary is shown.

I have never practised in this area so maybe it does not matter, but I am very unclear as to how weighty the contrary needs to be. To put it in different terms, are we talking about the contrary shown on a balance of probabilities or beyond reasonable doubt? The noble and learned Baroness has those words in her amendment, to which I and my noble friend Lady Walmsley, who is not in her place, have added our names. I do not think they would have the same difficulty when tied to having particular regard as they would to a presumption. I become more and more confused as to what Clause 11 means by a presumption unless the contrary is shown. A presumption is a presumption.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, I rise with some trepidation to speak very briefly to Amendments 54 and 55. I welcome the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, who both recognise that there are times when fathers are locked out of contact with their children. I applaud the Government for recognising that the involvement of both parents in a child’s life, all things being equal, will further the child’s welfare. No one would question that the child’s welfare has been and must continue to be of paramount importance. There is no question about that, but there have been times when that has been lost and the feeling has been that as long as a child has a mother, perhaps that is okay. That is my concern. I fully recognise what my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss said about the research. I am not suggesting here that there have been wholesale miscarriages of justice but every single miscarriage of justice in terms of parenting one’s own children is a personal tragedy and we therefore need to take these things extremely seriously.

This is being made worse in the modern world because fathers are often intimately involved in their child’s upbringing from birth. In my day it did not happen. Father was a long way away for quite a long time so the big bonding went on with mother, not with father. Often parents are genuinely sharing the parental role. At times a father will be the primary carer—I cannot remember fathers being primary carers in my day—or maybe a better parent than the mother. On occasions a mother may be neglectful, selfish and unloving. They may even emotionally abuse their child. Of course, all these things can apply to fathers, except that fathers, instead of emotionally abusing their child, will tend to hit out. That has been one of the big problems in decision-making on parenting, separation and childcare. As a former social worker, I can say that we found it quite easy to see a bump on someone’s head but found it very difficult to identify and to codify emotional abuse of children.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

I was simply making the fundamental point that adherence to the paramountcy of the welfare of the child is the principle that should rule in all cases without exception.

I understand the problem to which this clause is directed, and I shall not repeat what has been said about where it came from and so on. There is a possibility that Members of Parliament get a slightly distorted picture of what goes on in the courts, because the people they see at their surgeries are generally not those who have won. People do not normally come along to say how well they have got on. I have never been a Member of Parliament myself, so noble Lords will understand that I am only speculating, but that is a possibility.

I believe that all judges—family judges, magistrates and so on—recognise the importance of trying to preserve the relationship between a child and both parents. I entirely agree that that should be affirmed but what I find very dangerous—and they appear in more than one amendment—are the words “unless the contrary is shown”. One can see immediately what might happen. Let us say that the wife decides that she wants to have the child. She concentrates on proving that the father is not fit or that he has done something, unless the contrary is proved. That puts a focus on what are often the most difficult issues.

I suggest that the important factor is the relationship between both parents, as expressed in the clause, and that should be one of the factors that have to be taken into account in considering the welfare of the child. It is obviously important that the relationship with both parents should be preserved if possible. A factor in the checklist that includes that would obviate a great deal of the difficulty that this kind of clause could produce in putting a focus on one party trying to show that the other party is not suitable for some reason or other. It would be much better for the judge or magistrates, in approaching the matter, to take account of the fact that it is very much in the interests of the child and of the paramountcy of the child’s welfare that both parents take an interest and be involved. Precisely how that is done can be looked at as part of the general picture, but it strikes me that focusing on this as a separate matter is very likely to make matters worse rather than better.

It is some time since I had experience of the working of the courts but I used to, and much of what I learnt then remains with me and was part of what I had in mind when the Children Act 1989 was formulated. It is also fair to say that the criteria set out in that Act have proved to be a considerable international instrument in developing justice for children. Therefore, I have a very strong affiliation to what was in that Act and I am not keen to see it much changed. So long as the change is an improvement, I welcome it, but one has to be careful that one does not distort the principle while making improvements.

[Baroness Meacher]

The noble and learned Lord referred to the clause possibly generating parental attempts to downgrade the other parent. Does he agree that that is absolutely the norm at present? That is what parents do and women are particularly good at it. They really go for the father and try to discredit him. I suggest that we already have that in spades.

[Lord Mackay of Clashfern]

It is the job of the judge to do his or her best to lower that. As I say, it is some time since I had experience of dealing with this issue but I have had that experience. However, it is counterproductive to do the opposite and to make important, and put up as a presumption which may be rebutted, something which is absolutely at the heart of the difficulty between the parents. As the noble Baroness says, this situation often arises. I feel that a judge would be better able to keep the situation under control if he or she did not have to focus on whether or not the contrary was proved. The judge would just have to take account of the nature of the relationships and make sure that they were properly taken into account when addressing the major question of principle.

Africa: Development

Baroness Meacher Excerpts

Thursday 27th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

As my noble friend will be aware, this is clearly a major concern and it is also flagged up in the report. I note with some interest the greater success and prosperity among those countries in Africa that are making progress in this regard. Those countries should very quickly be able to see that it is in their self-interest to take this forward for their greater prosperity.

[Baroness Meacher]

I applaud the Government’s continuing commitment to the 0.7% figure for the aid budget. In view of the growing risk of weak countries, particularly in west Africa, being caught up in the trafficking of drugs, can the Minister give me some assurance about the priority being given to those very weak states to help them build up and develop governance institutions, the police, justice systems and so on in order to prevent them becoming narco states?

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Baroness is right and she will be aware that DfID’s priority is fragile states for those very reasons. I know that DfID has great concern about all the issues that she has flagged up and is doing its best to try to improve the governance and justice systems within those countries. Looking at the report mentioned in the Question, I note that half of African countries still depend on aid and the other half do not. Of the half that do, those are the ones that suffer the kind of fragility that she referred to.

Sport: Women and Girls

Baroness Meacher Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Baroness is a model we should all emulate.

[Baroness Meacher]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the outstanding work being done in many of the mental health trusts in London to promote sport among psychotic young people? We found that taking part in regular football matches, exercise and so on significantly reduces the readmission rates of these young people. Would the Minister please put pressure on her colleagues in the Department of Health to exert pressure on the commissioning bodies to promote sport among psychotic people? Without it, many of them make very little recovery over decades?

[Baroness Northover]

The noble Baroness is right to highlight mental health generally in relation to sport. Public Health England is well aware of the importance of sport in relieving depression and so on. I am very happy to take the points that she makes back but I can assure her that the Department of Health is well aware of the significance of sport in this regard.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Meacher Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 237A, which is in my name. The justification for this legislation is that it does three things. It enshrines the Government’s stated policy that health services should be built around patients and that all decisions about patients should be taken with them. No decision about me without me: that is the phrase that we have heard. The second justification is that the Bill empowers clinicians and local authorities to commission health services that meet the needs of all groups in the population and reduce health inequalities. The third justification is that the Bill will enable the National Health Service to deal with the pressure on it because of demography and increased longevity among the population by being more efficient and more effective. Those are the justifications for the Bill. It is with that in mind that I go back to a discussion that many noble Lords here this evening had at considerable length during the passage of the Mental Health Act 2007. We were all on different sides of the Chamber then, which is not a point to be missed, I suspect.

The amendment seeks to include in the decision whether someone should be placed under a community treatment order—a compulsory order, as alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford—an assessment of whether someone who is suffering from mental illness may yet have capacity to make a decision about their treatment. To put it in lay terms, someone may be ill but still retain sufficient insight into their illness to make decisions about their treatment and in particular about whether they should be subjected to compulsory treatment. It is a similar, although legally slightly different, test of capacity to that in the Mental Capacity Act, with which noble Lords will be familiar.

It is the same provision that occurs in the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003. Without going back over the ground that we covered in much greater depth in 2007, when the Scottish authorities prepared their legislation, unlike the Government of the time in England they did not simply go around a lot of different jurisdictions throughout the world where there are variants of community treatment order, pick elements that they liked and put them together. They went through a long and considered process, looking at how to bring their concept of a compulsory community treatment order into being. They did so with a greater degree of protection for people who might end up in effect being subjected to treatment against their will indefinitely. They included this concept of impaired decision-making within the Act.

Why should we revisit this decision? I was about to say that it was made by this House but it was not. This House agreed that we should include the concept of impaired decision-making; it was another place that removed it. The simple answer is statistics. When we debated what was then just a theoretical proposition that there would be community treatment orders, we were repeatedly assured by the then Government that they would be applied to only a very small group of people. Noble Lords will remember that it was envisaged at that time that there would be a few hundred people who were routinely referred to as “revolving door patients”—those patients who were in and out of acute care.

What has happened? In the first year of operation, 4,000 people—not 300—were put on to community treatment orders. There are now 7,000 people on them. I admit that we are still only a few years into the programme, but the number suggests that, first, the law is being much more widely applied than it was ever envisaged that it would be and, secondly, that practitioners are taking a precautionary approach to putting people on to compulsory treatment. In short, I suspect that a number of practitioners decide that the consequences of taking somebody off a community treatment order are potentially so hazardous to those practitioners that they are keeping people on indefinitely. That means that the situation that some of us foresaw whereby people were put on to community treatment orders from which they are unable ever to escape is happening. That seems to me to fly in the face of all the underpinning principles of this Bill.

At a time when we know that the resources of the National Health Service are going to be stretched and put under pressure in a way that they never were before, putting people on to treatment orders that they may not need is wrong. We know that lots and lots of people out there are suffering various degrees of mental distress, particularly those for whom their mental distress is not sufficiently serious that they are subject to compulsion, who desperately wish to get themselves into treatment and to see counsellors and therapists but cannot. Why take our already stretched resources and apply them to people who may not need them? I think that is wrong.

Why is this measure included in the Bill? I think it is unlikely that we will have a major revision of mental health legislation for some considerable time. In fact, there is a very good reason why we probably should not do so in that significant changes in mental health legislation happen not quite once in a generation but over a very long period when treatments and therapies have developed. Therefore, as I say, I do not envisage that we will have a major revision of mental health legislation for some years. However, I do not know whether that will be the case as I am not party to the Government’s proposals in that regard.

In the mean time, it appears that we are going to subject thousands of people to treatment that may be wrong—the only people in the country who are subjected to medical treatment against their will. It seems to me that we cannot let that carry on without looking at it in considerable detail. I suspect that the Minister is unlikely to want to go into this area at this stage, but if he cannot accept this amendment can he give a commitment that the issue will be kept under review and that we will return to it at some stage even though another large piece of mental health legislation may not be forthcoming?

[Baroness Meacher]

I apologise to the Committee and to the Minister for not being present in these debates. However, I cannot resist supporting the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, on this issue, which, as the Minister knows, we debated at length when the Labour Party was in government. I, for one, strongly supported the idea that people leaving hospital should not be put under a community treatment order, most particularly if they are no threat to others, are competent, can give consent and can make rational judgments. Large numbers of people under community treatment orders suffer with depression and the only persons at any risk at any time are themselves. At a time when we so strongly support the principle of autonomy and the right to some control over medical treatment in general, it feels completely inconsistent to throw all those principles away in this one area and say, “No, doctor knows best. Whatever you say and however competent you may be, you have no right to make a decision about the treatment”.

Having said that, I understand Ministers feeling very concerned about having the same principles apply if someone might—if they become unwell again—be a real, serious and major risk to other people. Therefore, my plea to the Minister is that he gives serious consideration at least to those who are no risk to anyone else, because the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, is right to say that while these provisions are on the statute book it is almost impossible for doctors not to impose these community treatment orders or for them then to rescind them because, if something goes wrong, they will be in the most appalling trouble. I will say no more but I wanted to add a strong voice to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker.

[Baroness Murphy]

My Lords, it will be no surprise for you to hear me say that I support all the amendments in this group. I do not really understand the need for the change in Section 117 on aftercare provisions. I am not quite sure what the tidying up is about or what the matter is with the existing arrangements. They are complicated to deliver but nevertheless seem to be utterly essential in the way in which they are currently framed. I would need to be convinced that there was some serious reason for changing them, as they apparently will be in the Bill.

As I understand it, we did not struggle with the provisions on independent mental health advocates during the proceedings on the 2007 Bill. While it is thought that parents could take the place of advocates in negotiating treatment, the proposals for independent mental health advocates for children are important in adding to the quality of services, and I support that.

The major thrust of my support relates to the amendment in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and other noble Lords. It is my fervent belief that one day we will look back in this House and be horrified at how we structure our mental health legislation. The fact that we do not have legislation on capacity-based decision-making seems to be a terrible tragedy and is extraordinary, given that we see in Scotland that it is perfectly capable of being implemented safely. We should be at the forefront of developing legislation that destigmatises mental health services and allows people to make their own decisions about treatment.

We will have to wait a long time for that, but this amendment focuses on something that many of us predicted would be overused, and I regret to say that it is all too obvious that it is being overused for the wrong people. Yes, there are some people for whom community treatment orders should be used, but if we had legislation for capacity-based community treatment orders we would still be able to implement them safely. I strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendment.