Polio

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

First, I thank the noble Lord for his recognition of one of the challenges of ministerial office, as he will know from his own experience. It is important that we recognise that vaccine-derived polio has the potential to spread, but it is rare and the risk to the public overall is limited. The majority of Londoners are fully protected against polio and will not need to take any more action, but the NHS will begin reaching out to parents of children under five in London who are not up to date. But we are asking for it both ways and for parents to check their records. Let us be clear that the UK is considered to be free from polio, but we recognise a potential risk given our world-leading surveillance of sewage.

On the noble Lord’s specific question, we are quite clear that people must come forward for all vaccines. Sometimes during lockdown people were unable to see a doctor or nurse in person, and the NHS is catching up with that anyway, but the NHS will keep sending the message to try to identify people who have not been vaccinated. At the same time, we are encouraging people to check their records. Let us be clear: we detected this very early in the chain, and it has perhaps come from someone who took an oral vaccine overseas and has excreted it into the system.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I congratulate the UKHSA and the Environment Agency on the investment they have made. When was the polio first detected—there are reports that it was detected as early as February—and when might they be able to narrow down the area in which it has been found?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. There is routine surveillance that happens anyway. However, in this case they have detected it in more than one surveillance. Quite often, it is seen as a one-off and then not seen again for some time; in this case, it has been detected at each interval of the surveillance. We know it is from the Beckton Sewage Treatment Works—in that part of London. I must be careful about the words I use here: clearly, it is mixed up with a lot of other stuff, and we must now work out how we go along the pipe, as it were, and investigate individual pipes to see whether we can locate the source. In theory, it might be possible to find individual households or streets but it is too early to do so. What we are doing here is really world-beating: it is a first and shows that we are ahead. However, one issue in being ahead is that we detect things that would not have been detected earlier, and people are worried about them.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Self-Isolation etc.) (Revocation) (England) Regulations 2022

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2022 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

My Lords, over the course of this pandemic, we have had to put in place curbs on our liberties. Many of those curbs would at one time have seemed intolerable, but they were part of our national effort to slow the spread of the virus. We have now reached the position that we have been waiting for ever since this national effort began: a time when we can roll back some of the rules that have governed our lives over the past two years.

We are able to take this step because of the incredible progress that we have made; I thank noble Lords for alluding to that in the previous debate. When this virus first arrived, we knew very little about it. People were dying. There was no vaccine. We had to make tough decisions to protect our loved ones, our healthcare staff and the British people while we built up the defences to make us safe.

Since then, our vaccination programme has put more than 140 million doses in arms. That has included a booster programme where we were the first major European nation to boost half our population. It has resulted in more than 70% of adults in England receiving the booster, including 93% of those aged 70 and over. Vaccines have given us greater protection and slowed down the advance of the virus. They have allowed us cautiously to open up the country and attempt some return to normal life. The scientific protection that we have built up, together with our greater understanding of the virus, has shifted the odds.

We must be quite clear that our fight against the virus is not over, but we are now able to take a different approach, moving away from legal curbs towards an approach based on personal responsibility and public health guidance, where we trust people to make the right decision for themselves, for their loved ones and for those around them. I hope that noble Lords will bear with me while I talk through each measure in turn.

First, the legal requirements around self-isolation are being revoked. This includes the duty to self-isolate if you test positive, the duty to provide NHS Test and Trace with details of contacts, the duty to notify an employer that you are self-isolating and the legal duty on employers not knowingly to allow someone who is self-isolating to attend work.

Rather than relying on legal restrictions, we are encouraging people to act responsibly and to follow the guidance that has been set out. If you experience any of the main symptoms of Covid-19, you should take a test. These symptoms are a new continuous cough, a high temperature and a loss of or change in your normal sense of taste or smell. People who test positive should still stay at home and avoid contact with others for at least five full days. They may choose to follow this advice until they have received two negative test results on consecutive days.

Household contacts are also advised to work from home if they can and to avoid contact with individuals who are at greater risk from Covid-19. They should also limit close contact with other people outside their household and wear a well-fitting face covering in enclosed spaces. Following this advice for 10 days after the case’s symptoms started, or the day their test was taken if they did not have symptoms, can help to protect others. Specific guidance for staff, in particular those in vulnerable settings, such as adult social care, healthcare and prisons, is being kept under review and regularly updated.

The other regulations being revoked today are the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (No. 3) Regulations 2020. These gave local authorities powers to issue directions to close, prohibit and restrict premises, events or outdoor places. They also gave the Secretary of State powers to require a local authority to issue a direction for closure. These regulations were vital for a local response to the crisis, allowing us to act with speed in response to local outbreaks, but these powers have not been used since July last year and we are now seeing fewer outbreaks, meaning that they are no longer proportionate or necessary. With these regulations revoked, outbreaks will be managed by local authorities through local planning and pre-existing public health powers, as they would be with other infectious diseases.

Although we are able to take these steps, we must remember that this pandemic is not over. There are simple actions we can all take to limit the spread of Covid-19 to protect those around us: get vaccinated, ventilate shared spaces, wear a face covering in crowded or enclosed spaces, get tested if you have Covid-19 symptoms and stay at home if you are positive. It is important that those who test positive for Covid-19 follow the public health advice to stay at home and avoid contact with others for at least five days.

We are taking additional steps to protect the most vulnerable with targeted vaccines and treatments, including offering spring boosters as we announced and the protection offered by antivirals, of which we have a greater supply per head than any other country in Europe.

In our surveillance to build up our resilience to manage and respond to new variants, we will continue to rely on the world-leading ONS survey, allowing us to track the virus in granular detail. We will make sure that we still have the ability to ramp up testing should we need to and will help countries across the world to develop their own capability for surveillance. These defences will be our first port of call in the future, rather than relying on legal restrictions, while we maintain our vigilance.

The regulations we are debating today restore some freedoms to our nation, but we have to make sure we maintain our vigilance and continue to rely on a scientific evidence approach to keep us safe. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend, both for his Answer to my Question earlier, which I would like to pursue in more depth here, and for moving the regulations today. I also pay tribute to the work that he, the ministerial team and the department have done. They have worked exceptionally hard in challenging circumstances. I declare my interest as an adviser to the board of the Dispensing Doctors’ Association.

I understand, as my noble friend said in response to my Question earlier, that the department and the Government are reaching a balance in living with Covid. The context of these regulations must be set against that background. My concern is that we are still relying on the vaccination programme. I pause and say how welcome the vaccination and booster programme has been. I particularly welcome the fourth jab being rolled out to the most vulnerable. It seems slightly patchy: we heard earlier that some in London have a date for their vaccination, but hearsay and anecdotal evidence are that people are being told that they will have a vaccination but have no date yet.

My main concern is simply this. The Secretary of State has said publicly, and my noble friend has repeated it in the House and in Committee today, that the Government hope to respond and keep the development of the pandemic under review. I welcome that but my concern is very simple: that we are removing all the tools to enable the Government to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

Regarding modelling, the Government have taken account of some of the models. Noble Lords have referred to SAGE and its sub-groups. Recent advice from the Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Modelling, or the SPI-M sub-group, included medium-term projections of the trajectory of the pandemic, assuming no future policy or behavioural changes, and estimates of the extent to which all measures and behavioural change are currently reducing transmission. That is one of the issues we looked at when coming up with the living with Covid strategy. We will continue to take a data-led approach to future outbreaks. As I said earlier, there are various ways that we will maintain that and we are very cognisant of potential inequalities.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I am most grateful to my noble friend for repeating the responsibilities of the local authorities. Were they allocated special funds to do this or are they just relying on their existing public health budgets? In other words, are they not getting any new money for this role?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am afraid I do not have a detailed answer, and I do not want to give an inaccurate one. I think I know the answer but I just want to double-check it. I will write to all noble Lords, as more than one Member raised that issue.

We see the importance of continuing to be vigilant, and of surveillance. We continue to monitor the virus and want to make sure that we have informed decisions and that everything is data-led. A number of noble Lords mentioned the ZOE app. Again, I will have to go back to the department to find out more information, if noble Lords will allow me.

In closing the debate, I thank noble Lords for their contributions. I apologise for the questions I have not answered; I will check Hansard and write to noble Lords. We should also thank the scientists, the health and social care workers, the volunteers, the life sciences industry, the postal, courier and transport workers and everyone who has helped us to get to this point. They have helped us to get through what has been a very difficult period in our lives.

We believe that the regulations before the Committee mark an essential step on our journey to living with Covid, away from legal restrictions and towards guidance and personal responsibility. Once again, I am grateful to noble Lords for raising their concerns, some of which I will have to go back to the department and check on, especially concerning the guidance and its communication. I have taken that point on board.

Throughout the pandemic we have sought to strike the right balance between the safety of the public and keeping the country open. We saw restrictions as a vital weapon in the armoury, but now we have the defences of the vaccination programme and the antivirals, along with a better scientific understanding of the virus, and can take a different approach. However, I repeat: we will keep monitoring the data, drawing on the latest scientific advice, and protecting the country through the defences we have built.

It is important that we follow public health advice should we display Covid-19 symptoms or receive a positive test result. We can all help each other in limiting the spread of the virus by getting vaccinated, ventilating shared spaces, wearing a face covering in crowded or enclosed spaces, getting tested if we have Covid-19 symptoms and staying at home if positive. Lifting these restrictions does not mean that we are ignoring the virus; it means managing the virus through the best possible guidance, as we do for other infectious diseases. I urge noble Lords to agree to these historic measures and commend the regulations to the Committee.

Covid-19: Restrictions

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2022 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they made of any available scientific advice when implementing or removing COVID-19 restrictions in England.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I refer to my work with the Dispensing Doctors’ Association.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Kamall) (Con)]

Throughout the pandemic, the Government’s approach has been informed by a wide range of scientific and medical advice and the latest data, as well as by economic, social and deliverability considerations. Ministers have always had regard to the scientific advice when taking decisions to implement or remove restrictions, but have balanced them against other considerations.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Given that the level of infections is now running at 220,000 new infections per day, and given the fact that the Government are planning to remove free testing from 1 April and have already removed the legal obligation to self-isolate, having already removed the support payments for self-isolation, how do the Government intend to protect the most vulnerable in society and NHS staff, given the Government’s new policy provisions of Living with Covid-19?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for those questions and will try to answer them as best I can. We are now transitioning to a stage where we are able to live with Covid, and we have just announced our living with Covid strategy. At the same time, we are looking at the best way to help those who are particularly vulnerable medically or economically, who should still be entitled to free tests, for example, and issues such as affordability. We continue to monitor the new variants, the BA2 and the deltacron, and we will also continue to have the ONS surveys.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Thursday 3rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend the Minister for Amendments 36 and 157. I shall also speak in support of Amendment 59 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. Before I do so, I hope your Lordships’ House will allow me to take this opportunity to thank the healthcare professionals at Guy’s and St Thomas’s, who recently looked after me so well following major surgery. Some noble Lords may have noticed my absence. I have had half my leg rebuilt and am now the proud, if involuntary, owner of a Meccano set inserted by my excellent surgeon, Marcus Bankes, and his registrar, Christian Smith. I apologise in advance if any noble Lord seeks to intervene and I dare not sit down to take their intervention as I am not sure I would be able to get back up again.

Although the pain was excruciating and the morphine, which I am weaning myself off, very welcome, it saddens me to say that that pain was compounded by the way in which I received no support from your Lordships’ House. I might as well have been dead. It reminded me that this wonderful institution remains a place whose rules and modus operandi were designed by and for rich, non-disabled men. I will say no more on the matter now, but it is clear to me that this needs to change if we are to become a stronger, more diverse, more representative House. If we do not want to be consigned to the past, we must stop living in the past. The appalling way we treat Members whose disability enforces temporary absence from your Lordships’ House is indefensible and cannot continue.

Returning to the substance of the amendments under discussion, I am hugely grateful that the Government have listened to concerns I raised at Second Reading and others raised, in my absence, in Committee. All credit goes to noble Lords for the strength and the passion with which they did this, and to the Minister for so obviously listening and taking their concerns on board. Taken together, Amendments 36 and 157 should make a real difference to the lives of all babies, children and young people in this country, particularly those with speech, language and communication needs. I should declare at this point my interest as a vice-president of the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. I know the Minister and his colleagues across government, not just in the Department of Health and Social Care but also in the Department for Education and the Ministry of Justice, share my ambition and the ambition of other noble Lords in wanting children and young people with communication needs and their families to have the best possible level of support so they can realise their potential.

To help deliver that ambition, I ask my noble friend to reflect on four things. First, I would be so grateful if he would look kindly on Amendment 59, so ably spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. This would help to close any potential accountability gap and considerably strengthen the provisions of Amendment 36.

Secondly, will the Minister pledge to ensure that all the guidance to the Bill specifically references children’s speech, language and communication needs? The statutory guidance and accountability lead for SEND is a very positive development, but it is not sufficient. The vast majority of children with communication needs do not have an education, health and care plan. This includes children with developmental language disorder—over 7% of all children—those who stammer, and those with speech-sound disorders. The guidance must, therefore, ensure that the needs of those children are supported. A model that the Government have already established for this is the statutory guidance to the Domestic Abuse Act, where speech, language and communication are listed as a specific intersectionality.

Thirdly, will the Minister agree to meet the chief executive of the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists to discuss how the guidance on the Bill can best capture those issues? Fourthly, on Amendment 157, can the Minister reassure the House that the report will include commitments to act to improve information-sharing? Finally, may I reiterate my huge thanks to my noble friend the Minister, and say how pleased I am to be able to do so in person, in your Lordships’ House? It is good to be back.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome my noble friend back and commend him for his bravery. We came into the House at the same time, and he is a source of constant inspiration to us all; I have endless admiration for him. I apologise to the House for having omitted to declare my interests when I spoke for the first time on Report on Tuesday. I refer to my entry in the register of interests, and in particular to the fact that I work with the board of the Dispensing Doctors’ Association. I am also a patron of the National Association of Child Contact Centres and a co-chair of the All-Party Group on Child Contact Centres and Services.

I again commend my noble friend the Minister for summing up and assessing the mood of the House and tabling the amendments today; I am grateful to him for that. I also support the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and her Amendment 59, which is very appropriate. I hope my noble friend will look favourably on it, and I pay tribute to the work of the noble Baroness. One of her remarks earlier on Report which struck a chord with me was about the shortage of psychiatrists and other mental health professionals, particularly for those in the age group affected by these amendments.

I endorse and support the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Farmer. He refers in particular to the family hubs, and I make a plea to the Minister to recognise, as part of a family hub, a child contact centre. Centres are usually manned by volunteers, and they do fantastic work—not necessarily in keeping families together, because, unfortunately, their role largely comes into play when families have broken, but they play a fantastic role in maintaining contact with the absent parent.

Obviously, in these constrained times, the budgets of all organisations come under increasing scrutiny and pressure, so I urge the Minister to use his good offices to speak to those in the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Education to ensure that the budget for child contact centres will be renewed not only for two years but for three years—the period promised earlier. Those centres do fantastic work, under great constraint, and I am proud to be associated with them. I wanted to use this opportunity to support the amendments and to urge my noble friend the Minister to use his good offices in this regard.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Amendments 4, I shall also speak to Amendments 23, 58 and 79 in my name. Before I start, I really should acknowledge the contribution and engagement of a few noble Lords, in particular the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord Patel, and my noble friends Lady McIntosh and Lady Blackwood for their constructive engagement with me and my officials.

We have seen the power of research as we have made our way through the pandemic, and research will continue to be essential. I agree that research needs to be embedded in the very DNA of the NHS. Earlier this week, I chaired a round table with a number of research charities and other stakeholders, and we all talked about the importance of embedding research into the NHS. A bit like the challenge I had when I was in academia, when you wanted more time for research but at the same time were told to get on with your day job of teaching students, likewise many clinicians are under the same pressures in terms of the day-to-day delivery of healthcare while wanting time for research.

We know that informed research helps to improve healthcare and health outcomes. It brings benefits to patients, staff, the NHS and the wider economy. We believe that integrated care boards will play a leading role facilitating and enabling research and fostering a culture and environment for research to flourish. To this end, the Bill currently places a duty on each ICB that it

“must, in the exercise of its functions, promote … research on matters relevant to the health service, and … the use in the health service of evidence obtained from research.”

I have, however, heard clearly from noble Lords that they want to see a step change in research. That is a request, or a plea, that I agree with, so rather than directly funding or conducting research, ICBs will primarily facilitate and enable it. However, ICBs will also have the power to conduct, commission or assist the conduct of research. This could include hosting or being a collaborating partner in research infrastructure.

I also heard from noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, that it is not clear what a duty to promote research should involve. To that end, I have tabled Amendments 4, 23 and 79 to clarify that the meaning of “promote” includes “facilitate”. I once again thank the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for his engagement. This highlights that facilitation is a subset of the range of activities meant by promoting research while retaining the breadth of a duty to promote research.

The duty is broad and could be met in a number of ways. For example, when exercising its commissioning functions, an ICB may select providers which have a proven track record of being research-active or can demonstrate the intention and capability to participate in research. The provision is also flexible so that bodies can develop the processes and structures that work most effectively, but we anticipate that ICBs would have dedicated research offices or teams to support their role in research and to encourage the conduct of research.

To ensure that research is fully embedded in local systems, we expect ICBs to consider research when preparing, with the responsible local authority, a joint strategic needs assessment articulating local research needs where they identify them. We would also expect ICBs to ensure that the joint local health and well-being strategy sets out how research needs can be met by the ICB. We have tabled Amendment 35, which is to be debated in the next group, to ensure that the research duty, along with other duties, is given particular consideration during ICBs’ planning of their strategies. We have also tabled a package of amendments to provide increased transparency, accountability and oversight of the research duties.

During the debate in Committee, my noble friend Lady Harding remarked that

“what gets measured gets done”.—[Official Report, 24/1/22; col. 47.]

We agree. Amendment 4 requires NHS England’s business plan to explain how it proposes to discharge its research duty and requires its annual report to contain an assessment of how effectively it discharged this duty. We have tabled similar amendments for ICBs. Amendment 55, also to be debated in the next group, would require that ICB annual reports must explain how the ICB has discharged its research duty. Amendment 58 would require that the NHS England’s performance assessment of each ICB includes an assessment of how well it discharged its research duty. I beg to move.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I take this opportunity to thank my noble friend for listening and acting in the terms set out in the amendments in this group, which I support on research as far as they go. I have to express my disappointment that my noble friend has not seen fit to extend his bonhomie to NICE. I have therefore tabled Amendment 29, and I am delighted to have the support of the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Patel. As set out by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, our thoughts are with the noble Lord, Lord Patel, who is unable to be with us today, and we wish him the speediest possible recovery. It is a great shame that he cannot be here today because we would all wish to pay tribute to his work historically as the forerunner of NICE. We are grateful to him for it. It is a great disappointment to me that he is not able to be here in person.

I also support Amendments 171 and 178 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, but I shall leave the noble Lord to set them out.

My noble friend has set out that the government amendments set a responsibility on integrated care boards to respond annually and to measure the research work that they have done. Quite frankly, I am a little concerned and gobsmacked as to why my noble friend is not insisting that integrated care boards do the same as regards NICE. The key provision of my Amendment 29 is:

“Within 28 days of any medicine or device receiving market authorisation from NICE, an integrated care board must update its formulary to include that medicine or device.”


I have set out other provisions, but the other one to which I draw attention is in proposed new subsection (3), which says that every year an individual ICB must report

“in a publicly accessible format”—

to me that would mean it being accessible on its website—

“all medicines and devices that have been added and removed from their formulary over the previous year and maintain an active list of all medicines and devices available on their formulary.”

Health and Care Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 9th February 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

306A: Clause 87, page 80, line 19, at end insert—
“(e) requiring the Secretary of State to facilitate sharing of information for research purposes.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require the linking of information systems to ensure engagement with equivalent international bodies and enable better sharing of data for post-market surveillance.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I support and welcome Clause 87 on medicine information systems. My amendments would simply add to the regulations on information systems. I want to explain why I want to do so and set out how.

Amendments 306A to 306C would require the linking of information systems to ensure engagement with equivalent international bodies and enable better sharing of data for post-market surveillance, and Amendment 306D would require the linking of information systems relating to medical devices to ensure engagement with equivalent international bodies and enable better sharing of data for post-market surveillance of devices. They are intended primarily as probing amendments to enable me to thank and congratulate my honourable friend Anne Marie Morris in the other place, who brought forward these amendments, and to explain why they are needed.



Registries for both medicines and devices are a critical tool in effective commissioning of medicines and in post-market surveillance, which the report by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege rightly noted is essential for patient safety. Although clinical trials can provide some evidence, this needs to be continually updated to ensure that the knowledge is current and that any adverse reactions can be monitored.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, for bringing this discussion before the Committee. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for his contribution. The information collected by the future medicine information systems has the potential to be used appropriately to support relevant research and improve the way in which we monitor medicines across the UK. However, once again, referring to the previous debate, we must be quite clear about whose data that is and the right to opt out.

Exchanging information with both national and international institutions is already integral to the MHRA’s post-market surveillance activities. Appropriate sharing of data from medicine information systems and medicine registries could also help support wider research to directly inform regulatory decision-making and to further support patient safety. Once again, we must respect patients’ concerns and their right to opt out.

The clause already provides the necessary power, by inserting new subsection (7A)(2)(c), enabling regulations to be made about the use and disclosure of information held within medicine information systems.

In regard to the noble Baroness’s admirable desire to ensure international co-operation with other bodies for post-market surveillance, medicines information systems will be established to support the MHRA developing medicine registries. As the regulatory authority, it is the MHRA’s international collaboration, rather than the information centres’, that will be key to supporting post-market surveillance. To ensure that this can continue, there are already specific powers in the Medicines and Medical Devices Act which enable the Secretary of State, and by extension the MHRA, to appropriately share information with international partners. Once again, going back to a previous debate, it is about what is an appropriate sharing of data.

As with medicines information systems, we already have sufficient legal powers to appropriately share. On the second element of this amendment, the existing provisions in Section 19, specifically Section 19(2)(c), enable regulations to address the use and disclosure of information held within medical devices information systems, providing an ability to appropriately share information within a future system. There will need to be careful consideration and consultation on the sharing and use of information, as we have previously said. However, there is a beneficial impact that the system could have in research and post-market surveillance.

In response to the specific question, I recognise the desire to see a system set up under the regulation-making powers in place, but given the importance of this matter, it is crucial—I hope that the noble Baroness reflects on the previous debate—that we take the time to get this right. Any regulations made under Section 19 and the wider system will need to be informed by extensive engagement and consultation, working closely with our partners in the devolved Administrations, so that they can deliver their full potential for patients and clinicians across the UK, taking account of the very real concerns raised about patient data. Once again, we are trying to get that balance right: better healthcare and better research feeding into health, but at the same time patients having the right to opt out.

NHS Digital is well placed to deliver and operate the medical devices information system. Alongside key partners, such as the devolved Administrations, we will consider how we can establish this system in a controlled, staged manner that builds on the confidence and momentum behind this issue.

Finally, I will be moving Amendment 306AA in my name. The amendment is supported by the Scottish Government; it is simply a clarification in wording. It makes clear that any powers or duties conferred on Scottish Ministers in relation to their role in collecting information for medicines information systems can be treated in the same way as other NHS powers or duties in Scotland and be delegated to health boards in Scotland. It is my sincere intent not only to respect the devolved settlement but to create the best possible system, one that will work UK-wide. This amendment supports that aim. It is for that reason that I ask noble Lords to support this amendment and invite my noble friend to withdraw hers.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for their contributions. I quite understand that my noble friend feels that there has to be a proper consultation, mindful of the sensitivity of patient data. I remember that being discussed during the passage of the Medicines and Medical Devices Bill in this place. It would be helpful to have an idea of what the timetable is for the consultation period and the introduction of the regulations. I do not know if my noble friend is able to put a timetable on that. Perhaps he could do that when we meet at the round table; it would be extremely helpful.

I am grateful for the reassurance he has given and for the opportunity to have aired the issues this evening. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 306A withdrawn.

Vaccination: Condition of Deployment

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Thursday 3rd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising that point. It is really important to note that, when engaging in debates such as this, it is sometimes easy to forget patients, and we should not do that. The health service should be all about patients; it should be patient-centred. I understand the concerns. One of the reasons that we originally introduced VCOD, particularly for care homes and then more widely, was that patients were very concerned and relatives of patients were concerned about their loved ones—they were terrified, given the early outbreaks that we saw in care homes. On the particular consultation, I am afraid that I do not have the information with me, but I will commit to write to the noble Baroness.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for answering questions on the Statement here this afternoon. One thing that struck me when I read through it was that

“Incredibly, over a third of the UK’s total number of covid-19 cases have happened in just the last eight weeks.”—[Official Report, Commons, 31/1/22; col. 71.]


Taken together with the point raised by one of the noble Baronesses on the Front Benches—that the Government are planning to stop publishing the level of Covid infections and deaths, and to stop testing from the end of March—what reassurance can he give us this afternoon that the Government will know where the infection is and what the level of infection is? Against that background, how does my noble friend expect to protect the NHS and care homes at that time?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question. I will be frank with her: I was not aware that the Government intend to stop publication, so I will have to go back to the department and double-check whether that is indeed true or whether it is a qualified statement. I commit to write to all noble Lords, given that it seems to be what we have heard. Clearly, as we are told, we follow the evidence, and the scientists continue to follow the evidence, so I would expect that data to continue to be collected. The best answer I can give at this stage is that I will go back to the department and investigate, and will write to noble Lords.

Personal Protective Equipment: Accounting

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord asks a detailed question, so I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I try to respond in some detail. If you look at the breakdown of the writedown, you will see that, first, about £4.6 billion was attributable to changes in global prices following the point of purchase in a highly inflated market—noble Lords will remember that even toilet rolls went up at one time. As the noble Lord rightly says, the £673 million was for stuff that had failed the quality testing or technical insurance. The £2.6 billion was for stock that will not be used for its intended purposes but can be repurposed. We are also looking at stock in excess of the current forecast requirements, which can be stockpiled, and we are also introducing a tender for testing to see whether the life of some of that stock can be extended.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, can I press my noble friend a little more closely on one issue? I speak as president of the UK Warehousing Association. I am grateful to my noble friend for his explanation. What timetable do the Government have to remove this redundant PPE equipment from the warehouses in which it is currently situated to enable stock to be stored in those warehouses which really needs to be at this time?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

There are different ways; some of it is about stockpiling stuff that is still useful and which we would use in future anyway. We are looking at research into testing whether the life of some of our stock can be extended—we are working with some of the best scientists on that. We are also looking at where we can give stock away or sell it on, as all the stock we are passing on meets WHO standards. To give noble Lords one example, we bought lots of latex gloves; usually we do not buy latex gloves in this country because of allergies and, now that we no longer need them, we can give them to a country such as Syria.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

78: Clause 20, page 17, line 14, at end insert—
“14Z39A Duty to review latest innovations with a view to local commissioning (1) Integrated care boards must review all new—(a) medicines,(b) medical devices, and(c) other health care solutions that may benefit the local population.(2) Integrated care boards must—(a) appoint a dedicated innovation officer to their board, and(b) develop and maintain a system to keep up to date with medicines and devices innovation and review suitability for patient usage, including engagement with the relevant—(i) academic health science network, and(ii) local pharmaceutical committee.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would mandate ICBs to monitor and assess innovation for the benefit of the local population.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I have four amendments in this group; I will speak to each in turn and look forward to hearing what the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, says on his two amendments.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, Lord Patel and Lord Kakkar, for supporting Amendment 78. It looks at innovation, recognising that it is an ongoing iterative process that every ICB should be aware of to ensure that patients have access to the most efficient and effective healthcare solutions of the day. To that end, is purpose is to oblige integrated care boards to formalise the obligations of the board to horizon-scan for the latest innovations, as approved by regulatory bodies, to cover their population.

This new clause would require the appointment of an “innovation officer”, or potentially identifying an officer to take up that role, and place an obligation on the board to constantly review innovative medicines and devices, as they become available. This is a separate and additional duty to that to promote research.

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[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all who have contributed to what has been an excellent debate. I welcome my noble friend’s offer to have further discussions, which I am sure will be taken up actively by all those concerned.

However, there seems to be a bit of a mismatch between my noble friend’s reply and the very real concerns expressed across the House, including by the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, in summing up. The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, said that there was insufficient emphasis and obligation for integration, and that the whole country would benefit from wealth creation—a point well made by my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones as well.

I was very moved by the reference of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to the loss of status and standing of teaching hospitals. My father, a GP, always used to say that if you want something done, have it done in a teaching hospital. My late uncle was a surgeon at the Royal Infirmary, where his students rather fondly called him “Mack the Knife”—I hope for positive reasons, because he used it skilfully, but unfortunately it is too late to ask.

We need to press my noble friend further on strengthening the obligation and making it much firmer in the Bill. Is he prepared to move in that direction? I would like to say how proud I am to be British and living in a country where we have such a strong record on research and the data available. My noble friend the Minister did not respond on where we are with clinical trials—my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones and I particularly asked him about that—and I would be very grateful if he could write to me separately. On the basis that we can have further discussions on this, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment at this stage.

Amendment 78 withdrawn.

Health and Care Bill

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 20th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, who speaks with such knowledge and authority on these issues. I will speak to Amendment 110, but first I will make some comments on the amendments spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and my noble friend Lord Black.

The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, highlights the difficulties that those of us living in rural areas have. I regret to see the downgrading, in particular, of the Friarage Hospital in Northallerton, where my father, for one, was treated to great effect. I associate myself with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Masham. I know that the Minister is familiar with these arguments now, because he very kindly spent an hour with his team listening to me on these issues. Whereas before, national health policy used to recognise and measure rural health policy, particularly as regards rurality and sparsity of population, those markers have now gone.

The House will be familiar with my work with the Dispensing Doctors’ Association. I regret the fact that, whereas my father and my brother in their time would have been rewarded by the number of patients that they had on their list, and by the distance they had to travel from the surgery to visit patients in their own homes or when called out to an emergency, that has now gone. Much of the bread-and-butter income, as I understand it, for dispensing doctors and pharmacists in rural areas is made up from dispensing. So a separate argument to be had on another day is how, from the beginning of April, I understand, those reimbursements are going to come under the cosh. I will just leave that with my noble friend; I will ask for a separate meeting with him on that. I pay tribute to the work that dispensing doctors do in rural areas under these pressures and I am delighted to be working with them in this regard.

My noble friend Lord Black spoke eloquently on osteopenia. There is a cohort of people—mainly women—who, like myself, are diagnosed with osteopenia. I had not been in the House very long when, having broken one bone six months previously, I broke another. I was sent to the fall clinic where, unsurprisingly, we were mostly women being tested to see how likely we were to have a fall and break a bone. When my noble friend said that many women could die within a year of breaking a hip, I recalled that I was told that I had an 11% chance of breaking a hip. The good news, I suppose, is that I have an 89% chance of not breaking a hip, and that is something I cling on to.

I was put on a course—as I am sure others have been as well—of very strong vitamin D tablets. Since I completed that course, I have had no further treatment, but also no recommendations as to how to prevent the condition—in my case, and I am sure in the cases of other women—deteriorating into osteoporosis. I will just leave the Minister with the thought that, given the seriousness of the condition, those who are on the cusp of descending into osteoporosis itself should perhaps be given greater guidance.

Amendment 110 is intended as a probing amendment, and I am delighted to see that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, has lent her support to it. I am very grateful to her for that. We had many debates on domestic abuse in the context of that Bill, now an Act, but domestic abuse remains a scourge in our society. While it is recognised as a crime, it is most often manifested initially in a GP’s surgery, not at a police station. In the context of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, describing the Bill as essentially an integration exercise, I believe it is important to see and recognise a victim of domestic abuse in a safe place or a safe haven—in a setting with trusted professionals, such as a GP’s surgery.

I am sure that the Minister will share my concern that there is currently no training for GPs or other health professionals enabling them, or expecting them to be able, to spot or treat an individual suffering from mental or physical abuse or to instruct them on how to engage with the police. Does he share my concern that that is indeed the case? I understand from Anne Marie Morris, my honourable friend in the other place who moved this amendment at that time, that Devon is the only health system to have a dedicated individual on the CCG board and a health and care strategy for victims of abuse. That strategy has improved health and care outcomes through training and other interventions. Surely, this should be rolled out nationally for other local health services to benefit from.

While it is welcome that the Government have agreed to take this issue into account—and I understand that the amendment was agreed in the Commons—I urge the Minister and the department to go further. ICBs should be mandated to have a strategy to deal with domestic abuse. I am sure that the Minister would agree that, if it is not mandated, it probably simply will not be done. Additionally, the role of the domestic abuse and sexual violence lead on the ICB is essential to spearhead the work in this area and to provide essential expertise. As there is only such a lead at the moment in Devon—who does fantastic work which can be seen first hand, and has been seen to help a number of related pilots roll out in that area—I would like to see this work rolled out throughout the country.

Amendment 110 therefore sets out a duty to prepare a strategy to support victims of domestic abuse using the services set out in that amendment. It asks for various consultations to take place not only with the local authority for the area within the integrated care board but with the domestic abuse local partnership board and other persons whom the integrated care board considers appropriate. I humbly submit that this is a gap in the Bill at the moment that Amendment 110 would fill.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 297J in this group, but I will preface my remarks by returning to the purpose of this Bill. The stated purpose of this Bill is to promote integration of health and care services in order to reduce health inequalities and to promote better outcomes. I have chosen, in this amendment, to speak on the issue of HIV and AIDS services. I have spoken in previous debates about access to sexual and reproductive health services such as contraception and abortion. They are two services which we would do well to look at in considerable detail, because they are services addressing issues that cannot alone be solved by the National Health Service. They are services which will only be solved by not only integration but collaboration between health and social care. Having, like many Members of this House, discussed these issues for many, many years, I come back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, the other day, that we are trying to seek integration and collaboration between two fundamentally different services. One is organised as a national and essentially top-down system, and the other is organised on a local and democratically accountable basis, with a completely different ethos.

At this point it is worth us taking advantage of the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Birmingham, and noting what he said the other day about the National Health Service. He said—and I paraphrase—that one of the best ways to ensure that the National Health Service does what we expect it to do is to ensure that it has resources, and he is absolutely right. Would that people took the same attitude to social care—but they do not, and in the matters of both sexual health services and HIV services, we see in graphic and demonstrable terms the failure to do just that.

Turning to HIV services, it is important to note that although, overall, we have a very good story to tell on HIV in this country, and a reasonably good story to tell in the last few years as we are on a path towards the complete ending of transmission by 2030, we do have some problems. Last year, the number of people living with HIV in the UK rose to 106,000. In 2020, the number of people being tested at clinics decreased by 30%, and more so in black and minority communities, where late diagnosis, with all its complications, remains stubbornly high. However, there was a very great increase in online testing. HIV is an area in which there have been and will be, over the next few years, huge technological changes in diagnosis and treatment, which the NHS and social care should be up to speed with if we are to get to the stated aim of ending transmission by 2030—which we can do. The problem is that, at the moment, we have an increase in the rate of late HIV diagnosis—it was up to 42% in 2019—and we know the concomitant costs that that presents for the health service.

Anyone who has spoken to anybody involved in HIV services, be it in social care, local authorities or the NHS, will have heard exactly the same story since 2012. Just look at commissioning. HIV testing in sexual health clinics and community settings is commissioned by local authorities; HIV testing in GP settings, where it is clinically indicated, is commissioned by NHS England; HIV testing in GP settings as a public health intervention is commissioned by local authorities; HIV testing in secondary care, where it is clinically indicated, is commissioned by CCGs; HIV testing in secondary care as a public health intervention is commissioned by local authorities—keep with me, my Lords. Home testing, which is increasingly popular, is commissioned by local authorities and by Public Health England, for some periods, at some times in the year. Is it any wonder that it is a mess? We are not taking advantage of any of this and we are letting people down. The fragmentation in this area—even for people who have HIV, who are some of the savviest patients the NHS comes across and who are up to speed, sometimes in advance of their clinicians—is really difficult and does not make sense on any level; it does not make sense on a public health level or an individual level. I do not need to go into great detail, as noble Lords can work out for themselves all the consequences of that.

It is quite interesting to talk about one piece of work that the All-Party Parliamentary Group on HIV/Aids did. We did some in-depth research in south-east London, where there are some of the most advanced integrated care services for HIV. Even there, where there is very high prevalence and they know, largely, what they are dealing with and the populations where this is the biggest problem, they struggled to make sense of this fragmented commissioning picture.

I am not asking that all this funding be put into the NHS—most definitely not, because we all know that once money goes into the NHS, it never comes out again. I think there is a case to be made for increasing budgets, not least the budgets of local authorities, which have been slashed, in order for them to carry on doing what is important, which is getting to people long before they are anywhere near being any kind of medical priority.

What I am asking for in this amendment is a formal duty to collaborate. I have no doubt that the Minister will say that that is not necessary, but we cannot carry on as at present: we are badly wasting resources when we should not be. We have enough knowledge in this Committee of the levers that make decision-makers and commissioners change what they are doing, not least when they understand that there are new and more efficient ways to meet the needs of the population. I propose this amendment with no great sense of hope, but, if he does not accept it, I hope the noble Lord will at least understand that we cannot continue with this inefficient way of dealing with known issues. We must stop failing people when we could be sorting out the issues.

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Moved by

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering]

54: Clause 16, page 14, line 47, at end insert—
“3AA Duty of integrated care boards to commission approved treatments(1) This section applies where—(a) a treatment has been approved by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence,(b) an integrated care board has not arranged for the provision of that treatment under section 3 or 3A, and(c) a clinician has recommended that treatment for a person for whom that integrated care board has responsibility.(2) The integrated care board must arrange for the provision of that treatment to the person for whom it has responsibility.(3) In subsection (1) “clinician” means a medical professional employed by or acting on behalf of an NHS Trust, NHS Foundation Trust or primary care service from whom the integrated care board has arranged for the provision of services.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require an integrated care board to arrange for the provision of a NICE-approved treatment to any patient whose NHS clinician has recommended it, even if that treatment is not otherwise available to patients in that ICB area.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak particularly to Amendments 54, 74 and 97 in this group. I warmly thank the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Hunt, for lending their support to all three amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for supporting Amendment 74. I pay particular tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and his historic work prior to the setting up of NICE; it was a great contribution that deserves to be recognised.

We are all aware of the procedure that, when a medicine is approved, it goes through two processes. First, it goes to the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, known as the MHRA, a body which checks whether a drug is safe and effectively does what it says on the tin. It then goes through a separate process run by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, known as NICE, which looks at cost-effectiveness and value for money. After those two hurdles have been passed, the medicines should, theoretically, be accessible to anyone. That is very clear in the NHS constitution, which explains that there is a legal right for people to have access to NHS NICE-approved drugs if it is right in their particular circumstances that they should. Indeed, the NICE guidelines say very clearly that there should be automatic adoption within 90 days of approval, if clinically appropriate and relevant.

For a drug then to be prescribed, it must not only have been approved by NICE but go on to the approved list of drugs in the local health authorities, called a formulary. The problem is that somebody must put the drug on the formulary and, currently, while in theory there is a system under the NHS NICE guidelines, this does not actually happen. Sadly, this results in a postcode lottery where some areas have the product on their formulary and others do not. Sometimes this is a process failure, but sometimes it is to avoid budget overspends. Therefore, I would say that it is at the patient’s expense that they are deprived of the drug.

To give an example of the problem, there is currently a drug for multiple sclerosis that patients are still waiting after 150 days to see go on to the formularies in around 25% of the local health systems across the country. There is a state-of-the-art flash monitor for type 1 diabetes, but the uptake across the country varies between 16% and 65%. What is most worrying is that those parts of the country with the greatest levels of deprivation have the lowest level of uptake.

I make a plea to the Minister: in my view, ICBs should be required to ensure that all NICE-approved medicines and devices are available and promoted to their population, because the cost of these drugs is covered by the VPAS reimbursement scheme agreed between the NHS and the pharmaceutical industry. If a treatment is unavailable in one ICB footprint, they should be required to commission the required treatment from another ICB. The Government should also promote uptake through the ICBs of NICE-approved medicines and report uptake of new medicines annually.

Amendment 54 would require an ICB to arrange for provision of a NICE-approved treatment to any patient whose NHS clinician has recommended it, even if that treatment is not otherwise available to patients in that ICB area. Amendment 74 would require ICBs to ensure that all NICE approvals are available and promoted to their population via a publicly accessible format, normally online, and to report on their uptake annually. Amendment 97 would mandate integrated care boards and healthcare providers, notably hospital trusts, to update their formularies to include all NICE-approved medicines or devices within 28 days of market authorisation, to ensure they are available for healthcare practitioners, through either their physician, for example, or prescribing pharmacist, to make available for suitable patients.

I thank those who submitted briefings to me while I was preparing for today, notably JDRF, which makes a number of recommendations on this issue, particularly in regard to type 1 diabetes. These aim to reduce inequalities, remove the postcode lotteries to which I referred and make sure that treatments, such as those for type 1 diabetes, are uniformly available across the piece. I also thank EMIG, a pharmaceutical trade association for small and medium-sized companies, for its briefing. It says that the uptake of NICE-approved medicines is critical for NHS patients to benefit from the latest and most promising innovations. Finally, I am grateful to Vertex Pharmaceuticals, which submitted a briefing that again supports the conclusions reached. Among the proposals it highlights is the introduction of a modifier to take account of the severity of a disease and efforts to more fairly consider uncertainty in the evidence for highly innovative and complex treatments for rare and severe diseases, including through greater use of real-world evidence.

On this small group of amendments, I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has to say in connection with her neat, simple amendment, which would strengthen what we are proposing to do here. I urge the Minister and the department to address these postcode lotteries and make sure that NICE does not just make the guidelines but ensures that treatments reach the formularies and ultimately the patient in question. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is taking part remotely. I invite her to speak now.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

Perhaps I may suggest, following the interventions of both noble Lords and their experience of being Health Ministers and of NICE, arranging a follow-up meeting with them to discuss this matter in more detail so that I can understand the situation more. As I am sure noble Lords will appreciate, I have been in this job for only four months and am still learning an awful lot. In fact, I am learning far more in this Committee than I have in my first four months. That shows that sometimes there is no substitute for learning on the job.

NICE has a suite of more than 300 guidelines and, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, said, more than about 1,900 medicines, spanning the whole of health and social care. It makes dozens of recommendations that can be complicated. We do not think it proportionate or feasible to require compliance with NICE guidelines but, given what I have just mentioned, I should like to consult previous Health Ministers with experience in this area and perhaps have further discussions to see what is relevant in the future.

I shall end with the CQC reviews of ICSs. We will look more broadly at the entire system of how the ICS areas are performing. A requirement for the CQC to specifically consider compliance with NICE guidelines as part of these reviews risks adding a considerable burden to this process. I can, however, assure the Committee that the Government expect the healthcare system to take NICE’s recommendations fully into account, subject to what noble Lords have told me about the performance of some CCGs. I am also aware that NICE works closely with system partners to support implementation where possible. It is probably best henceforth for me to have those conversations with the two noble Lords and any others with experience of this matter. There are more than two former Health Ministers in this House and we should have those conversations.

Let me see if I can answer some of the specific questions. As regards VPS—how do I put this in the most diplomatic way?—I have been asked to look at that issue. The industry has complained, for example, because we also have therapeutic tendering at the same time as expecting this. I am grateful to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for asking me to look into this issue in further detail. I have asked what would happen, for example, when some of the life sciences companies ask whether it makes the UK less attractive in some ways. I am assured that it does not but I am looking into this issue as part of the life sciences aspect of my portfolio.

I think that I have covered all the questions but all that I ask at the moment is to let me have further conversations. That is probably best. In that spirit, I ask noble Lords to consider withdrawing or not moving their amendments.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all who have contributed to this debate and for the number of issues that have been raised.

At the outset, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, highlighted and a number of us focused on the hurdles—as the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, described them—to be overcome. However, there has been a lot of focus on the problems of the budgetary challenge. It would be incumbent on my noble friend the Minister to meet not just with the two noble Lords he highlighted but the drafters of the amendments: myself, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Warner, and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, who sat so patiently through the whole of today’s proceedings and had to leave before this discussion was reached. As he had such success in the mental health meeting, I hope that we replicate that and take up a number of the issues raised here.