Child Poverty

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 29th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Of course, and the noble Baroness will know that I have spoken at length on this matter and that there are a number of exceptions to this particular policy. But I stick to our view that there is a balance to be struck between helping those people in the way that we do, not having the two-child policy and, equally, being fair to the taxpayer. I know that the noble Baroness will never agree to that.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that many of these families are taxpayers and in paid work?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Absolutely. As I have said before, I do not think that we will agree at all on this—but, as I say, we are not minded to move on this policy. Both noble Baronesses will be well aware of our position on this.

There are encouraging signs that the economy has now turned a corner. Inflation has more than halved from its peak, delivering on the Prime Minister’s pledge, and is forecast to fall below 2% in 2024-25. Food price inflation is at its lowest since January 2022, at 4%, and wages are rising in real terms. We remain committed to a strong welfare system for those families who need it, and have uprated working-age benefits by a further 6.7% from this month and raised the local housing allowance to the 30th percentile of local rents, benefiting 1.6 million private renters in 2024-25.

Some questions were raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lincoln and also alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about social housing, which is an important subject. Their questions were linked to items of damp and mould; they asked what the Government were going to do about this. The Government have now introduced Awaab’s law through the Social Housing (Regulation) Act 2023, which gives the Secretary of State powers to set out new requirements for social landlords to address hazards such as damp and mould in social homes within fixed time periods. We are now analysing the responses to the consultation, and then we will publish a response setting out findings and bringing for secondary legislation as soon as possible.

What I should say, which think was alluded to by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, is that everyone has a right to a safe and decent home. Since 2001, the decent homes standard, the so-called DHS, has played a key role in providing a minimum quality standard that social homes should meet. We are currently reviewing the DHS to ensure that it sets the right requirements for decency, and we will publish a consultation on a proposed new standard soon.

Personal Independence Payments

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point. It chimes with what I said earlier, which is that we need to target our resources in the right place and be sure that individuals are looked after in terms not of the end result but of the process. That is extremely important. I will make this point again: where an individual has severe conditions, it must be right that we, the state as a compassionate country, look after them, and we need to be able to provide a better focus. This is, again, one of the reasons why we are bringing forward this Green Paper.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, it is common ground among commentators that claimants who have realistic work prospects should be offered high- quality employment support. Why do the Government have so little confidence in their own policy that they feel it necessary to impose benefits cuts and the threat of sanctions, risking greater poverty and even destitution, rather than the life of dignity promised in the DWP press release?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will know, you can claim PIP whether you are in or out of work. More than 5 million disabled people are in work. One of the aims is to continue to encourage those who are disabled to take up some form of work. I say again that it is incredibly important that this is done in a measured and targeted way in line with the needs of the individual.

Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee stage
Monday 22nd April 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

Is it not one of the dangers that this is a deterrent to people claiming these benefits?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I have a response to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about signals. The signal is where the criteria or rules for benefit eligibility appear not to be met, and Parliament will have agreed those rules.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Yes it would. Landlords are in scope. We will filter this through in terms of the business as usual. If we receive any information—

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

Given that, has the department done an assessment of the likely impact on landlords being willing to take people on housing benefit? It is already an issue that landlords are reluctant to take housing benefit recipients, but, with this, I could see the market completely freezing for people on benefit.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I clearly cannot go far enough today, but, because this is important and we are in Committee, I need to give some further reassurances on where we are in the process in terms of filtering. If I may conclude my remarks, I will finish this particular point. This is all part of the test and learn, and I give some reassurance that we are working through these important issues in relation to appointees and landlords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My understanding is that it needs to have these powers to be able to cover the ground properly. I say again that these powers are limited, and whatever comes from the data that is requested from the third parties will end up being, we hope, limited. Even then, it may not be used by us because there is no need to do so.

The power covers all relevant benefits, grants and other payments set out in paragraph 16 of new Schedule 3B to the Social Security Administration Act 1992, as inserted by Schedule 11 to the Bill. To remove pension-age payments from the scope of the power would significantly undermine our power to tackle fraud and error where it occurs. Pension-age payments are not immune to fraud and error, as I have mentioned. I will give an example of that. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether people would be notified of their bank accounts being accessed.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

Before the Minister moves on, I asked specifically about child benefit. Could he please answer that?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I know that I said earlier that child benefit was not included. I will clarify that child benefit is not a benefit for which the DWP is responsible or has any functionality for. This measure will be exercised by the DWP Secretary of State, and we cannot use this power for that benefit.

I was in the middle of answering a question from the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock.

Child Poverty

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, these statistics cover 2022-23—a year when war in Ukraine and global supply chain challenges led to unexpected and high inflation rates, averaging 10% over the year. These factors are reflected in the statistics. The Government have since taken firm action to support those on the lowest incomes, including through uprating benefits by 10.1% from April 2023, increasing the national living wage from April 2023 and providing cost of living support worth £96 billion over 2022-23 and 2023-24.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, we have a record number of children in poverty, of whom two-thirds are considered to be in deep poverty, and an annual increase even on the Government’s preferred measure. Plus more food insecurity means more hungry children and reliance on food banks. So what was the Secretary of State’s response? “The plan is working”—working for whom? When seven in 10 children in poverty have at least one employed parent, parental employment can be only a partial answer. Welcome as it is, benefits uprating is really the minimum we should be expecting. Will the Government therefore now accept that it is high time for a new plan, which scraps the social security policies that drive worsening child poverty and sets out a comprehensive, cross-government child poverty strategy?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Setting such a strategy and targets can drive action that focuses primarily on moving the incomes for those just in poverty—just above a somewhat arbitrary poverty line—while doing nothing to help those on the very lowest incomes or to improve children’s future prospects. Therefore, we have no plans to reintroduce an approach to tackling child poverty focused primarily on income-based targets. Having said that, perhaps I can reassure the noble Baroness that my Department for Work and Pensions consistently works across government to support the most vulnerable households.

UNICEF: Child Poverty Rankings

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 28th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The Government like to read all reports and regard this one with a great deal of interest. However, our argument is that it is hard to give these findings much weight, due to the methodology used to create this ranking. Let me explain. International comparisons of poverty rates are difficult, due to differences in the frequency and timing of data collection and the approach taken to gather this data.

I shall go further. UNICEF’s ranking uses two measures: recent rates of relative child poverty and the percentage change in those rates over an arbitrary comparison period. There are issues with both measures. First, in considering recent child poverty rates, the latest OECD data shows that the UK has a relative poverty rate for nought to 17 year-olds comparable to large European countries. Secondly, UNICEF’s ranking compares relative poverty rates between 2012-14 and 2019-21.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, paid work is hardly the answer, as the Minister suggested, given that the majority of children in poverty are in families with a parent in paid work. He goes on about the methodology, but he knows very well the evidence of hardship and deepening poverty in this country. Is it not time the Government accepted the case made by UNICEF and many others for a coherent, cross-government child poverty strategy?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Baroness will have heard me say this before, but we believe that the best route out of poverty is through work. We are committed to a sustainable long-term approach to tackling child poverty in particular—the subject of this Question—and supporting people on lower incomes to progress in work. She will know that in April 2023, we uprated benefit rates by 10.1%, and working-age benefits will rise by 6.7% from April 2024, in line with inflation. But we are very aware of the pressures that quite a few households are experiencing.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2024

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, in my opinion, the provisions in the instrument are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. The Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order increases relevant state pension rates by 8.5%, in line with the growth in average earnings in the year to May-July 2023. It will also increase most other benefit rates by 6.7%, in line with the rise in the consumer prices index in the year to September 2023.

The order commits the Government to increased expenditure of £19 billion in 2024-25. It ensures that state benefits maintain their value relative to the increase in the cost of goods and services. It means that most state pensions will gain value relative to that increase. Indeed, the proposed increase to state pensions would be the second highest on record—second only to the increase last April.

This will meet the Government’s commitment to the triple lock, benefiting pensioners who are already in receipt of basic and new state pensions, and younger people who are building up future entitlements as a foundation for private saving. It will raise the level of the safety net in pension credit beyond the increase in prices, and it will maintain the purchasing power of benefits to help with additional costs arising from disability.

For those receiving support linked to participation in the labour market, the Government announced a range of employment and conditionality measures at the Autumn Statement. These measures maintain and improve work incentives. This allows us now to strike a balance in support of those who are in low-paid work, who are looking for work or who are unable to work by linking the increase in the rates of universal credit to the increase in prices.

I will now address state pensions in more detail. The Government’s commitment to the triple lock means that the basic and full rate of the new state pension are uprated by the highest of the growth in average earnings, the growth in prices or 2.5%. This will be 8.5% for 2024-25, in line with the conventional average earnings growth measure. As a result, from April 2024, the basic state pension will increase from £156.20 to £169.50 a week, and the full rate of the new state pension will increase from £203.85 to £221.20 a week. All additional elements of the state pension will rise by 6.7%.

The Government are committed to supporting pensioners on the lowest incomes. The order therefore also increases the safety net provided by the pension credit standard minimum guarantee by 8.5% from April 2024. For single pensioners, this means it will increase from £201.05 to £218.15 a week, and for couples it will increase from £306.85 to £332.95 a week.

I turn now to universal credit, jobseeker’s allowance and employment and support allowance. The Social Security Administration Act 1992 gives the Secretary of State discretion on whether to increase the rates of benefits such as these, which are linked to participation in the labour market. Given the employment and conditionality measures I mentioned earlier, he has decided to strike a balance in support by also increasing the rates of these benefits by 6.7%, in line with the increase in the consumer prices index.

As a further measure to reinforce work incentives, the monthly amounts of universal credit work allowances will also go up by 6.7% from April 2024. They will increase from £379 to £404 a month for those also receiving support for housing costs, and from £631 to £673 a month for those not receiving support for housing costs. Noble Lords are aware that these are the amounts a household can earn before their universal credit payment is affected if they have children or if they have limited capability for work. The 6.7% increase will also apply to statutory payments, such as statutory maternity pay, statutory paternity pay and statutory sick pay.

I turn finally to benefits for those with additional disability needs and those who provide unpaid care for them. The rates of personal independence payment, disability living allowance and attendance allowance will increase by 6.7% from April 2024, in line with the increase in the cost of goods and services. As we have debated previously in other contexts, the Government recognise the vital role played by unpaid carers. This order also increases the rate of carer’s allowance by 6.7%, from £76.75 to £81.90. Unpaid carers may also access support through universal credit, pension credit and housing benefit. All these include additional amounts for carers, which will also increase by 6.7%. For a single person, the carer element in universal credit will increase from £185.86 to £198.31 a month. The additional amount for carers in pension credit and the carer premium in the other income-related benefits will increase from £42.75 to £45.60 a week.

In conclusion, the draft Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2024 implements the Government’s commitment to the triple lock. It provides for a real-terms increase in the value of the safety net in pension credit, it maintains the purchasing power of benefits for additional disability needs and for people providing unpaid care to people with those needs, and it strikes a balance in universal credit by maintaining both work incentives and the purchasing power of benefit income. I commend this instrument to the Committee.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I of course welcome the inflation-proofing of benefits and the temporary lifting of the local housing allowance freeze in April, but—I fear this speech is a series of “but”s—I find it, frankly, insulting to those affected. I should say that the Minister is not included in this but, from the Prime Minister down, the uprating is constantly lauded by Ministers as a record amount, an additional support, as if it represents a great act of generosity which somehow justifies the lack of action on a number of other fronts. The inflation-proofing of benefits should be the default position, avoiding the months of speculation, fuelled by government sources, that have caused considerable uncertainty and anxiety for benefit recipients in and out of work.

Moreover, there is a number of reasons why the increase in line with inflation is far from generous. The Resolution Foundation points out that the uprating will do no more than restore benefits to their real value on the eve of the pandemic. While there were flaws in the cost of living payments, which we discussed last year, their loss now means that many households on universal credit will be worse off in cash terms. The foundation estimates that the typical household in the poorest quarter of the working-age population could face an income fall of 2% next year. The following year, on current assumptions, private renters will face a further freeze in the local housing allowance, which, according to Citizens Advice, is an important factor in the increase in the number facing a negative budget—that is, where income does not cover essential spending.

There is also the prospect that the uprating could coincide with the abolition of the household support fund, which has acted as both a lifeline and a sticking plaster for the holes in the social security safety net. I know that the Minister can say nothing more than that this is kept under review, but local authorities, charities and potential beneficiaries need a bit of certainty, rather than to wait for the Budget, which is only a month before the outcome of this review takes effect. I really do not understand how he can tell me in a Written Answer that the Government do not have robust data on the number of English local authorities that have closed their local welfare assistance schemes which, in his answer to my earlier Oral Question, he prayed in aid, should the household support fund be scrapped. Surely, such data should inform any review of the future of the fund. As it is, we know from End Furniture Poverty that at least 37 authorities have closed their scheme.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have spoken in this short debate. Before I attend to the number of questions asked and subjects raised, I would like to say at the outset—I normally do this but, today, I give special feeling and meaning to it—that this Government really do fully recognise the challenges facing people across the country due to the higher cost of living.

Although inflation is trending in the right direction, with the Bank of England now forecasting a fall to a target rate of around 2% in three months’ time, I acknowledge that pressures on household budgets very much persist. I saw this for myself in a recent visit to the Earlsfield Foodbank. The Government are not complacent about such matters; I hope noble Lords will recognise that the Government have taken action on a number of fronts to address these concerns, which were raised by a number of Peers—four, to be precise—this afternoon. I may not be able to answer all the questions but I will do my very best.

Let me start at the outset—I do not think I have done this before—by saying that, although I acknowledge the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, I am generally disappointed that every single item was a negative. I am disappointed that nothing she said seemed to support what we have done in these regulations or what we are trying to do. We really are trying. There was a long litany of faults coming from the Government: that the uprating was not enough; on the loss of the cost of living payments; on the freeze in the LHA, which is all for the future as we do not like where we stand on that yet; on the household support fund; and on the benefits cap review, including why it was not being done.

The noble Baroness is right to ask questions but I say gently that there is no mention of the genuine headwinds that all Governments have been facing. This Government have not been alone in the experiences of the pandemic and coming out of it, as well as of the war in Ukraine. There was no indication of these whatever. It is a bit disappointing. I know that the noble Baroness will understand why I have said these things but I thought it would be worth mentioning them.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I am sorry to interrupt but I started by saying that I welcomed the inflation-proofing. That is a positive. I then warned him by saying, “All the ‘buts’ are coming, I am afraid”, but it was in the context of welcoming.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I appreciate that from the noble Baroness. We have undertaken a number of debates together; I hope that she did not mind me mentioning it.

However, questions are questions; I will start by attempting to answer one of them. After each uprating, household income will go down by 2% because of the ending of the cost of living payments. At the moment, the Government have no plans to extend the cost of living payments past the 2023-24 round of payments. Responding swiftly and decisively to the cost of living pressures has been a key priority for the Government. Over the past two years, the Government have demonstrated their commitment to supporting the most vulnerable by providing one of the largest support packages in Europe. Taken together, support to households to help with the high cost of living is worth £104 billion over the period 2022-23 to 2024-25.

As was mentioned earlier, reducing inflation and growing the economy are the most effective ways to build a more prosperous future for all. This Government are committed to halving the rate of inflation; they have pretty well achieved that. However, to be helpful to the noble Baroness, an evaluation of the cost of living payments is under way. This seeks to understand their effectiveness as a means of support for low-income and vulnerable households. This will be made public when it is ready.

The noble Baroness mentioned the household support fund. She probably second-guessed my answer, which is that this is kept under review in the usual way. It has been used to support millions of households in need with the cost of essentials. For example, 26 million awards were made to households in need between 1 October 2021 and 31 March 2023. More than £2 billion in funding has been provided to local authorities via the household support fund since it began—that is, October 2021. More than 10 million awards were made between 1 October 2022 and 31 March 2023.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked why we are not going to increase the benefit cap. She cited the fact that the Secretary of State has an obligation to review at least once every five years. We believe that there has to be a balance. The benefit cap provides a balanced work incentive and fairness for hard-working taxpaying households, while providing a safety net of support for the most vulnerable. She will know that the Government increased the level significantly from April 2023 following the review in November 2022. The proportion of all working-age households capped remains low, at 1.3%, and these capped households will still be able to receive benefits up to the value of gross earnings of around £26,500, or £31,300 in London. For single households, this is around £15,800, or £19,000 in London.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about benefits levels and how to measure them. There is no objective way of deciding what an adequate level of benefit should be as every person has different requirements depending on their circumstances. However, we will spend £276 billion through the welfare system in Great Britain this financial year, including around £124 billion on people of working age and their children. Over the past two years, the Government have demonstrated their commitment to supporting the most vulnerable by providing one of the largest support packages in Europe, which I mentioned earlier.

The national living wage, which I also want to mention, is set to increase this April by 9.8% to £11.44, on top of the increase in April 2023 of 9.7%. This represents an increase of over £1,800 in the annual earnings of a full-time worker on the national living wage, and it is expected to benefit over 2.7 million low- paid workers.

Household Support Fund

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the Household Support Fund; and what plans they have for (1) the future of the fund, and (2) the role of local crisis support generally.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, an evaluation of the current household support fund scheme is under way to better understand the impact of the funding. The current household support fund runs until the end of March 2024, and the Government continue to keep all their existing programmes under review. Councils continue to have the flexibility to use funding from the local government finance settlement to provide local welfare assistance. As with all government policies, this remains under review.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the discretionary household support fund has acted as a vital lifeline come sticking plaster, filling some of the holes in our totally inadequate social security safety net. If, as is feared, the sticking plaster is torn off from April—just two months away—it will leave and deepen a gaping wound of dire hardship. Will the Minister therefore convey to the Chancellor the urgency of the calls from local authorities and civil society groups for the fund to continue for at least a year, followed by a proper long-term strategy for local crisis support in place of last-minute, ad hoc funding decisions?

Department for Work and Pensions: AI

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 5th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We are certainly working very hard to look at and mitigate delays, and AI will over time be a game-changer for that. To manage and mitigate risk, we have produced a risk framework, in line with the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. We are setting out AI governance and an approach to AI enablement which will be transformational.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall pick up on what my noble friend said about digital stop and search, because there is growing concern about the potential for hidden bias in the use of algorithms to detect social security fraud. What steps has the DWP taken to prevent such bias, with potentially discriminatory outcomes?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises an important point. We are committed to building trust in our use of AI and are fully aware of the risks of the technology, as discussed at the UK AI safety summit. Where AI is used to assist its activities in the prevention and detection of fraud within UC applications, DWP always ensures appropriate safeguards, and bias is something we are very alive to. It will very much depend on the input of data and we have some risk profiles in place to ensure that we adopt best practice in that respect.

Employment and Support Allowance

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, employment and support allowance is one of the working-age benefits potentially under threat because it is rumoured that it may not be inflation-proofed next year, given the inflation rate announce d today. Given that many benefits have already been subject to a series of cuts since 2010 and the growing evidence of acute hardship among recipients both in an out of work, will the noble Viscount make the case within government for full inflation-proofing as strongly as possible?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I should remind the noble Baroness that we uprated by 10.1% in 2023, and I take her point. I can reassure her that the process leading up to April 2024 is beginning; I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will be looking very carefully at all the evidence, and announcements will be made at the appropriate time.

State Pension Underpayment Errors

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 16th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point about home responsibilities protection, which is one of the issues that we are looking at in a timely fashion. We will be providing estimates and next steps for corrective action in the summer. Obviously, we are looking to move at pace to resolve these issues.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount’s Written Statement last week celebrated the fall in fraud and overpayment error in the social security system as a whole, but it rather glossed over the increase in underpayment to £3.3 billion. That is money which is not going into the pockets of people who need it. Do the Government not think that under- payments are as important as overpayments, and what are they doing to minimise underpayments?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Of course they are important. Any underpayment is incredibly important, as I am sure the noble Baroness would agree. The department became aware of issues with state pension underpayments in 2020 and, as mentioned earlier, the issues go back several decades and through different Governments. We have taken immediate action to investigate the extent of the problem and are carrying out highly complex scans of computer systems. Correction activity commenced on 11 January 2021; I say again that this is an important matter and we are moving at pace.

Health and Disability White Paper

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 20th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point: small employers are five times less likely to provide access to occupational health services than large employers. Only 19% of SMEs provide occupational health services for their staff. Bearing in mind that, as I said, this must be a game-changer, we have a number of supporting initiatives in place: developing the test for a financial incentive and market navigation support for SMEs and self-employed people; working with the occupational health sector to identify better ways to support development; and delivering a £1 million fund to stimulate innovation in the occupational health market.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked about sanctions, but I do not think that the Minister answered her, so perhaps I will ask the question in a different way. Can the Government guarantee that work-related activity will be voluntary for those receiving the health element?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

It will be, but, as I mentioned to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, we have a number of matters to work through, which is why I have said that it will take time. Sanctions are part of this: for example, in November 2022, the universal credit sanction rate was 6.51%. Sanctions underpin conditionality and are a key part of a fair and effective welfare system, so it is right that a system is in place to encourage claimants to take reasonable steps to prepare for and move into work. We need to keep our eye on this.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2023

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Grand Committee

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

That is fine; I accept that. I think we can leave it at that.

I will start by tackling a couple of issues that were raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, towards the end of her speech. She made some good points that completely chime with what the Government think. We totally understand that a number of individuals are suffering as a result of the war in Ukraine, the pandemic and cost of living issues generally. I completely acknowledge that; I hope the Committee understands that.

Let me start on why childcare has not been included; perhaps I can help. Regardless of the number of hours that they work, eligible parents can claim back up to a generous 85% of their childcare costs each month, up to the maximum amount of £646 for one child and £1,108 for two or more children. The vast majority of UC claimants receiving a childcare element do not hit the UC childcare caps. In fact, between August 2020 and July 2021, 92% of universal credit claimants receiving a payment for the UC childcare element were eligible to receive the full 85% of their childcare before the earnings taper.

So we believe that our policy provides fairness in the welfare system between those receiving out-of-work benefits and those in work by putting in place a reasonable cap on the childcare costs that a household can have reimbursed through UC, in each assessment period. We believe that the childcare policy aligns with the wider government free childcare offer in England and our similar funded early learning offers in the devolved nations. We keep childcare under review. We know that childcare costs are extremely high; I am certainly aware of that. I cannot add anything more to that, only that the Committee should be aware that we are aware of these issues. I will stick with that.

Secondly, the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised a perfectly reasonable point about food back usage. I am aware from a previous Oral Question in the Chamber of various Peers’ strong concerns and the comments that have been made. I chime with those as well. As the noble Baroness knows, food banks are independent, charitable organisations and our department does not have a role in their operation. What she and the Committee should know is that we are looking to give some feedback from a series of questions posed by the Family Resources Survey. We hope that these will be published next month and will give the Government some idea about usage. It is very much our wish that food banks are not needed. We need to continue to work as hard as we can to look at the reasons behind their usage. We can all guess what they are; I have given some flavour of that this afternoon.

On the same theme, I will touch on inflation. This leads to a number of important points raised by noble Lords, in particular the extremely good point from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on the increase in food prices. We are all concerned about the price of certain food items rising particularly steeply. Like many countries around the world, and as the noble Baroness knows, the UK faces the challenge of high inflation. We will continue to provide support through cost of living payments, which have been well rehearsed in this Committee and in the Chamber, while increasing state pensions, benefits and the benefit cap levels by 10.1%.

To help the Committee, the CPI stood at 10.1% for the 12 months to January 2023, down from 10.5% in December. This monthly decline was principally driven by lower rises in motor fuel. The Bank of England predicts that the CPI will continue to fall. The OBR states that government action has limited the severity of the recession and protected 70,000 jobs, and that it will take 3.4 percentage points off inflation by the end of March. This will contribute to a fall in inflation, which, as the Prime Minister has said, is expected by mid-year.

This leads quite neatly on to some of the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies. To paraphrase, the general gist of their question was: why can we not uprate more frequently using a more up-to-date CPI figure? That is a fairly reasonable question. The Secretary of State undertakes an annual review of benefits and pensions. As I mentioned earlier, the CPI in the year to September is the latest figure that the Secretary of State can use. This is crucial to allow sufficient time for the required operational changes before new rates can be introduced at the start of a new financial year.

All benefit uprating since April 1987 has been based on this particular timing. Given the volumes involved, the technical and legislative requirements and the interdependencies across government, we state very firmly that it is not possible to undertake the uprating exercise any later than currently timetabled. I do not say this to be particularly cheeky but I wonder whether the comments might not have been quite so critical of this timing issue for the higher uprated figure had there been real evidence today of a much lower level of inflation, so all those people would be getting more than the level of inflation—perhaps I should not go there.

I turn to the local housing allowance—the LHA—which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and others; yes, we had 10 minutes on this in the Chamber earlier. I am not sure that I can really add to what I have said. I genuinely believe that the £1 billion that we invested in 2020 to provide support for private renters by increasing the rate to the 30th percentile was the right thing to do. It is a fact that it has been frozen but it is also a fact that the discretionary housing payments—DHPs—and homelessness protection grants are helpful. I say again that we believe it is right that we defer to local councils and local authorities to make the right decisions in terms of how to target the funds that we have given them, including to people who are generally suffering and are on the lowest incomes. It is up to them to decide what to do.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

Perhaps I can ask again the question that I asked this afternoon but in a slightly different way. Let us take somebody whose local housing allowance is well below the rent that they are paying and they are on benefits. They are probably struggling anyway because, as we have heard, benefits have been cut in real terms in recent years—if benefits had not been cut since 2010, people might have been in a better position that they are to withstand the current cost of living crisis. Let us say that they also live in an authority where the local housing allowance budget is under great strain; according to Shelter, some authorities are really struggling because demand is so high. What is the Minister’s advice to them? What should they do? There is no point saying, “Go to the local authority”, because there may not be any money there.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I take note of that; I am certainly not dismissing what the noble Baroness says. It is a legitimate point that she raises. I hope, though, that she will acknowledge that it is right that the money we give is properly targeted to those who are in genuine need. I would like to hear of issues where they are not particularly targeted. If the money is going to people who do not need it, that is an issue, but the main thing is that the money should go to people who are genuinely in need. However, it does not just rely upon that; it relies upon the other initiatives that I have already mentioned.

To pick up on what the noble Baroness said in her remarks, the local housing allowance rates are not intended to meet all rents in all areas. In areas where rents are more expensive, those in receipt of benefits have to make the same decisions about where to live as those not claiming benefits. May I just leave it that we probably will not agree on this and that I will take away what the noble Baroness has said? It is important, I acknowledge, that local authorities follow through and give support to those who are in genuine need in all areas.

I will move on to the transitional element—that is, the uprating and the link to universal credit and transitional protection, which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies. As they know, TP provides eligible claimants time to adapt to UC by protecting entitlement at the point of migration to universal credit. TP is neither intended to replicate permanently nor be an indefinite increase in benefits. I therefore acknowledge that it erodes. This ensures that UC entitlement for those managed migrations will gradually align with new claimants in the same circumstances. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked how many people will see a less than 10.1% increase due to the interaction with transitional protection; I will need to write to him on that point.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I asked that question as well. Will the Minister write to me about how many will be affected? I had hoped that he might be able to bring those figures today.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

If I had been given advance notice of the questions, I might have been able to.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

The noble Viscount was. I am sorry but the very reason I raised it with him earlier this week was so that it might be possible to bring the figures today.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

In which case, I apologise. I would normally take note and come back with some answers. Of course I will include the noble Baroness; in fact, I will include any Peer who has taken part in this debate in my letters about anything that I am not able to answer.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said that the Government need to be clear about why we are raising the guaranteed minimum pensions by 3%. For the pre-2016 pensioners, the Government meet the difference; for post-2016 pensioners, we do not—however, these people benefit from transitional protection. I hope that gives some form of an answer.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised communication. A fact sheet covering the policy change was published on GOV.UK in August 2021—I see that she is nodding at that—which invited people to write to the department if they wanted an explanation of how they had been affected by the policy change. One request for compensation has been received so far, which is interesting. As of 25 January, we do not yet know the outcome of that claim, but I hope that provides an answer.

The noble Baroness also asked about the benefit cap increase linked to child poverty. As she will know, the Government are fully focused on tackling the root causes of poverty, such as children’s education and parental worklessness, to improve the lives of people in our country. She will know that the best way of doing that is for us to have a strong economy and get people into work. As mentioned earlier, the proposed levels will mean that households will be able to receive benefits up to the value of gross earnings of around £26,500, or £31,300 in London.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about low pay and whether the Low Pay Commission—the LPC—would include in its deliberations the adequacy of benefit rates. I thank the noble Baroness and will draw the Treasury’s attention to that.

There are a number of other questions that I need to answer, but we probably need to draw a halt, as time is running short.

Local Housing Allowance Rates

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the freeze in local housing allowance rates.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, the local housing allowance policy is kept under regular review. We monitor the average rents and shortfall levels for claimants to assess the impact of the policy. A significant support package was announced in the autumn Budget, including uprating benefits by 10.1% and extending the household support fund for 2023-24. Further support—discretionary housing payments—is available, and since 2011, nearly £1.6 billion in DHPs have been provided to local authorities.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, this further freeze in private rental support means that two-thirds of lower-income private renters must cover at least a quarter of their rent from elsewhere. For many, this means a real cut in the value of inadequate benefits that are supposed to cover basic needs such as food. Cash-limited local authority discretionary housing payments are no answer, especially as their budgets have also been cut. Does the Minister accept that one consequence of this freeze is likely to be increased homelessness? What is his advice for those faced with a growing, unaffordable gap between help with housing costs and actual rents?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I absolutely hear the noble Baroness, because we recognise that rents are increasing—there is certainly lots of anecdotal evidence of that in the press. However, the challenging fiscal environment means that difficult decisions were necessary to ensure that support is targeted effectively. That is why the Chancellor announced at the Autumn Statement a substantial package of cost of living support to target the most vulnerable households. As I mentioned earlier, one of the initiatives for those who require additional support is the discretionary housing payments available from local authorities, which are best able to target those funds.

Universal Credit: Benefit Cap and Two Child Limit

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 24th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how many families in receipt of Universal Credit are subject simultaneously to the benefit cap and the two child limit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, both policies aim to introduce fairness between households claiming benefits and taxpayers who support themselves solely through work. We estimate from published statistics that fewer than 30,000 households were impacted by both policies in April 2022, which is under 1% of households on universal credit. These families may benefit from additional financial help, such as the cost of living payment and discretionary housing payment, if they need additional support to meet rental costs.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, in the absence of official data hitherto, the Benefit Changes and Larger Families Project estimates that at least 110,000 children are being pushed deeper into poverty because their parents are caught by both the cap and the two-child limit. Evidence of the damaging effects strengthens the case for scrapping both policies, which are far from fair. At the very least, will the Government now undertake to publish regular data on the numbers affected and monitor the impact on children and their parents?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am certainly aware of the larger families project. The latest published statistics on households on universal credit show that the majority of families—79%—on universal credit had fewer than three children, with 21% of universal credit households with children having three or more children. Having said that, it is important to note that there are a number of other initiatives where we can help families with more than two children if they get into difficulty.

Food Banks

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 9th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for his most kind words. I have clearly taken on an important but sensitive brief.

I am well aware of the issue surrounding nurses, as we all are in this House. We take this issue seriously. The first thing is to look at food bank usage. The noble and right reverend Lord might know that we have included specific questions in the family resources survey to measure and track food bank usage. The FRS is a highly recognised publication used by government and academics alike. This should draw out the information needed to look further at what we can do, particularly in the NHS sector.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the Trussell Trust identifies a social security system that provides adequate protection as key to reducing the need for food banks, which the trust thinks are not the answer. It reports that between April and September last year nearly half a million food parcels went to children. I too welcome the Minister to his new role. What is his explanation for such an extensive need for food banks among children?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Surely that comes down to the fact that there are so many areas where people are not just feeling the pinch but really struggling to feed their families; children are very much part of that. Having said that, the Government are taking substantial action to do their best to mitigate these issues. As the noble Baroness will know, from April 2023 we are increasing benefits in line with inflation. They will rise by the September CPI inflation rate, which was 10.1%.

Pensions Tax Relief: Employment and Retention

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

This is a familiar angle from the noble Lord, and I have already mentioned a number of the steps we have taken. He will know that individuals can be subject to different tax treatments depending on the type of income they are receiving and whether they are employed, self-employed or working through a company structure. I reassure him that it is very important that we find the best way to reward those at the very top, particularly our senior clinicians, otherwise they might move abroad. We must also look at those at the other end of the scale, particularly at this very difficult time.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the Minister’s response to my noble friend, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor assured us the other day that those with the broadest shoulders would be asked to bear the greatest burden. Therefore, will the Government look again at the question of higher rate tax relief and the amount of money that has been lost in that, and at whether significant savings might be made through that—leaving aside the problem identified earlier?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I can certainly take back that message. As the House is aware, we have the Autumn Statement coming up on 17 November. Although I am the first not to second-guess what might be in that, I am certain that the Chancellor and the Prime Minister will be looking at all aspects, and particularly in this respect.

Cultural and Creative Industries: Diversity

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 11th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I will certainly take that message back to Ofsted. I think I mentioned that Ofsted is, subject to consultation, taking a much more serious view on arts being taught in schools. That is something I will take back, particularly for areas of high deprivation.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, some organisations working with some of the poorest people in our society have identified access to arts and culture as a human right. What are the Government doing to make sure that children in some of the poorest areas and from the poorest families have adequate access to arts teaching in their schools?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Much of the money channelled to this area comes through Arts Council England, which has supported a number of programmes aiming to address barriers to access, including the National Youth Dance Company and Youth Music, which focuses on providing music-making opportunities for disadvantaged children. Youth Music projects support 75,000 disadvantaged children. There are other ways the money can be channelled into these very important areas.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I will have to check Hansard, but I believe I was speaking about the current system and how it is working now. I should stress that there is no quota and it could well be that these percentages are different when operated under the TEF. There is no particular expectation. I believe I was answering the question about how it might be likely to be very different.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for answering my third question, but I had two other questions specifically on the measurement of teaching quality. Can the Minister answer them in his next letter, which we are so eagerly awaiting?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

Yes, of course. I reassure the noble Baroness that I will add her points and I will look at Hansard again closely on the issues that she has raised and address them.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I am sorry to interrupt, but can the Minister tell us whether there will there be a sub-bronze level, because otherwise, if bronze is the bottom, it is very difficult to see how it will be seen as representing quality?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

As I mentioned, there has been a full consultation on this. It came down to the best way forward, which we believe is to have three ratings. I should stress, and hope that I have stressed, that bronze is a good level and is highly respected. I want to make that quite clear to the Committee, and I hope that noble Lords will accept what I have said.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, the Government wholeheartedly agree that part-time education, distance learning and adult education bring enormous benefits to individuals, the economy and employers. The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, eloquently echoed these points in some detail in her speech. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, happily provided us with useful continuity following her remarks in Committee on Monday on this subject and mentioned the importance of offering and encouraging new learning activities and opportunities for the elderly. Of course, she is quite right on that. The noble Lord, Lord Winston, raised the future needs of the economy, which again is an extremely good point in this short debate. That is not only important now but, as he rightly points out, will be even more important to the economy in the future.

Our reforms to part-time learning, advanced learning loans and degree apprenticeships are opening significant opportunities for mature students to learn. There were also powerful short speeches from the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Bilimoria, on lifelong learning, which is another important area. That was also mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone.

The OfS will promote student choice, and by allowing new providers into the system, prospective students can expect great choice of higher education provision, including part-time and distance learning. For example, we know that in 2014-15, 56% of students at new providers designated for Student Loans Company support are over the age of 25, compared with 23% at traditional higher education providers. The reforms complement the other practical support that the Government are already giving part-time students, including, for the first time ever, providing tuition fee loans. We are also consulting on providing part-time maintenance loans.

On the amendments, I reassure noble Lords that the Bill places a general duty on the OfS to have regard to the need to promote choice and opportunity for students. This duty is broad and intended to ensure that the OfS looks across the whole range of different modes of study and student needs. We have already heard a good part of the range in this short debate. I should include the subject of lone mothers, which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who made an important point about work-based students. It is important that we keep the duties of the OfS broad and overarching so as not to overburden the organisation with too many competing and overlapping duties to which it must have regard.

Placing specific duties alongside general duties might also lead a future OfS to assume some sort of hierarchy of student needs where the needs of part-time students outweigh other duties and/or the needs of full-time students. The Secretary of State’s guidance to the OfS would instead be used to ask the OfS to take forward certain policy priorities such as part-time study. It is vital that we maintain and enhance innovative forms of provision in the sector. As the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Winston, said, this will improve the opportunities for students to choose the type of course that is right for them, reflecting their diverse needs. We will of course make clear in our guidance to the OfS that having regard to innovation is part of its general role in having an overview of the sector and the role of providers.

Beyond the Bill, to help answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Rees, we are considering how best to support accelerated degrees following our call for evidence on accelerated courses and switching universities or degree, and how best to support part-time students with maintenance loans which can also support more online learning. The legislative arrangements for the Quality Assessment Committee, which broadly replicates the current role of HEFCE’s quality, accountability and regulation committee, do not specify types of institution or learning that should be represented. Where possible, members should have experience, preferably current, of higher education provision, and the majority of members should be independent of the OfS. It will then be down to the OfS to balance the range of skills and backgrounds it needs to create a successful committee, enabling it to have the flexibility to respond to challenges and priorities now and into the future.

However, I welcome the opportunity to set out how much importance the Government place on part-time learning, lifelong learning, adult education, distance learning and alternative modes of higher education delivery. I should like to answer a point raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Garden, Lady Wolf and Lady Lister, on the decline in part-time student numbers. I will be quite open with the Committee, as I should be, and say that the reasons for the decline in part-time numbers since their peak in 2008 are somewhat complex and there is no silver bullet in responding to that decline. However, our policies go further than ever before in helping hard-working people who want to gain new skills and advance their careers by studying part-time. It was the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf—

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I am sorry to intervene, but while the reasons may be complex, can the Minister give us some idea of what he believes those complex reasons are?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I do not want to go precisely into that at the moment except to say only that the Government continue to look at these complex points. The Bill addresses the issue by making sure that all the groups mentioned in this debate are being considered. In addition, outside the Bill, we are doing much for part-time learning by putting it into a generic form, and we are offering tuition fee loans for part-time students so that they can choose to study. This does not affect the tuition support available. For the first time ever we intend to provide financial support to part-time students similar to that given to full-time students, and in 2018-19 we intend to introduce new part-time maintenance loans, on which we are currently consulting.

Living Wage

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 9th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My noble friend makes some good points. The only real way of achieving sustainable increases in living standards is through focusing on economic growth, employment and reducing taxes for the low paid, as he said. Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the IMF, said recently that the IMF had,

“underestimated the growth of the UK economy”.

In a significant turnaround, the fund’s latest assessment found that the UK economy had rebounded strongly.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, welcome as the Minister’s support for decent wages is, wages cannot take account of family size. What steps are the Government therefore taking to restore the cuts in child benefit that they have made in order to protect the living standard of low-paid workers with children without subsidising low-paid employers, in the way mentioned by my noble friend Lord Haskel?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

We know that some households, including those with children, are seeing the amount that they spend on food increase but there is much that the Government are doing to resolve this. The Government provide a number of schemes to help the most vulnerable to afford and have access to nutritious foods, such as the Healthy Start scheme and free school meals. However, we also recognise the extremely valuable work of civil society in supporting local communities. There has always been a tradition in this country of voluntary and charity organisations providing support to people, as the noble Baroness will know, in addition to the safety nets that the Government provide.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I appreciated the interesting and moving speeches by the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister and Lady Pitkeathley, and the brief intervention by my noble friend Lady Tyler focusing on the challenges that parents of disabled children and carers of disabled adults face in balancing their care responsibilities with their working lives.

Being a carer can have a significant impact on an individual’s life. The Government recognise that caring for an individual with a disability can be both physically and emotionally draining. Flexible and supportive working arrangements can make a significant difference to a carer’s life by ensuring that work does not add to the carer’s stress levels. This is why it is important that carers are able to adjust the way they work to allow them to stay in work, because work can be important for a carer’s well-being and income and for maintaining social contacts. As a nation, we cannot afford to lose the talent and skills of carers from the workplace. The Government recognise that caring for disabled people can be a sudden change for an individual. It may be challenging and take a great deal of commitment from an individual to deliver the care and support that is needed.

I reassure noble Lords that my department regularly collects and reviews data on carers to ensure that we are providing the right framework to allow them to participate and thrive in the labour market. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills conducts the workplace employment relations survey and the work-life balance series of surveys which look at the effectiveness of labour market participation policies, such as the right to request flexible working, in supporting carers. The Office for National Statistics also uses the census to analyse carers’ labour market experiences.

These surveys and the evidence they provide informed the recent report on carers from the cross-government task and finish group on carers. This report highlighted the importance of flexible working and recommended that government should continue to promote the benefits of flexible working to employers. All the recommendations of this report have been accepted and are currently being implemented. An additional duty on government to conduct this research and review the provisions for carers is unnecessary because this work is already under way and government regularly collects and reviews this information.

The Government’s approach is to create a fair, flexible and efficient labour market which supports and encourages participation from all. The strategy for carers is to ensure that we create the right framework to allow them to balance their work and caring responsibilities. Clause 113 requires the Government to review the effectiveness of the right to request flexible working against the policy objectives. Supporting carers to remain in work is a key objective of the policy, and I can confirm that this review will include assessing the effectiveness of the right to request flexible working in supporting carers to participate in the labour market.

I understand the noble Baronesses’ intentions behind this amendment, and I hope I have reassured them that the Government are acting to support carers of disabled children and adults to remain in work and are continually reviewing this support to ensure that it meets the needs of carers.

Just before I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment, I wish to change the tone slightly by stating that we have almost reached the end of Report, and on behalf of my noble friend Lord Nash, I will take this opportunity to thank everyone who has spoken today and during earlier sessions on Report. We have had many thoughtful, well informed and constructive debates on a very broad range of issues, and I have welcomed the thorough approach that noble Lords have taken to scrutinising each part of this wide-ranging Bill. I hope that we can address the very few outstanding issues. I also thank the Bill team and all the officials who have supported me, my noble friend Lord Nash and colleagues across different departments for their work.

In the mean time, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend and to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for speaking in support of this amendment at this extremely late hour. I am grateful to the Minister. I thought he made a rather compelling case for my amendment when he spoke about the importance of supporting carers. He talked about enabling them to participate and thrive, but the trouble is that the present situation does not enable them to participate and thrive. I was ultimately very disappointed by the Minister’s response because it is not about simply collecting statistics, but about having a formal, structured review of the case that other countries have now accepted. Therefore I will, of course, withdraw the amendment, but I suspect that it will not be the last amendment which tries to make this case; we will table such an amendment to any legislation that offers the opportunity to do so. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, the Government understand the intention behind the amendment and I am glad of the opportunity to have this short debate on the issue today. Before I respond to this specific amendment, I should like to take a moment to set out the rationale behind the introduction of shared parental leave and the importance of these changes for families. Bearing in mind the tenor of the comments made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, about brevity, I shall attempt to be brief.

The restrictions in the current maternity and paternity system are outdated and do not reflect the way in which modern families want to raise their children. They compel mothers to take the bulk of the time off and give fathers no choice but to stay at work in the early stages of their child’s life. This approach maintains the outdated perception that a mother’s place is in the home and a father’s place is at work. It is known to damage women’s career prospects, because employers expect young women to take large amounts of time out of the workplace to raise children. It can also mean that mothers feel unsupported in caring for a child, and fathers do not feel involved in their child’s upbringing.

It is right that mothers are able to take all the leave that they need to recover from birth and to bond with their new baby. However, they should be able to return to work without sacrificing the rest of their leave. This should be available to the family to use in whatever way they choose. For some families, this will mean that the father takes on the majority of the caring responsibilities very shortly after birth. For others, it will mean mixing periods of work with periods of leave to share childcare. This Bill will make this possible for the first time. The introduction of shared parental leave and pay aims to give families flexibility in how they share childcare when they have a baby. The current arrangements are rigid and inflexible, enabling only one parent to take leave at a time and allowing parents only to “take it in turns” to care for their child.

The changes introduced by the Bill will enable parents to take leave in blocks as small as one week and will remove the restriction on parents taking leave together. The Modern Workplaces consultation, which the Government published in May 2011, set out the Government’s ambition for leave to be taken in blocks of less than a week to allow parents to take leave on a part-time basis. Unfortunately, in this instance, this worthy ambition has not been possible. I will explain why.

The UK has one of the most flexible labour markets in the world. UK employment legislation gives employers and employees freedom to agree individual contracts between themselves, without restricting them to set working hours or working patterns. Shared parental leave is flexible. It will allow parents to choose how to share it between themselves and to take leave as an individual right, in discussion with their employer. This variation in working arrangements creates a difficulty when trying to allow shared parental leave and pay to be taken in part-week blocks.

Here, I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, over the mathematical calculations. One parent may have a standard working week of 37 hours a week, or 7.2 hours per day, and their partner may work 16 hours per week working two eight-hour days. Calculating the ratio of the weekly entitlement to shared parental pay that should be paid when an individual takes one day off would be complex for an employer. However, this is magnified when a parent decides to transfer their remaining part-week entitlement to their partner for them to use. It would be even harder for small businesses, without access to an HR resource, to administer. The Government are mindful that shared parental leave and pay will be an innovative system. To add into the new system the facility to take leave and pay in periods of less than a week risks creating significant additional costs and burdens for employers.

The Government instead propose to allow shared parental leave to be taken on a part-time basis, using a principle that is already well used and understood by employers. Under existing maternity leave provisions, mothers are able to return to work for 10 individual working days without ending their maternity leave or losing their entitlement to maternity pay for that week. These are called keep-in-touch, or KIT, days. The Government propose to give parents on shared parental leave additional keep-in-touch-style days to allow part-time working on shared parental leave without affecting entitlement to statutory shared parental pay. It is intended that these days will have a different name in the context of shared parental leave, which I hope addresses one of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, because the intention for shared parental leave would be different from the intention for maternity leave. The name would reflect the fact that these days can be used to achieve a part-time working pattern or a staggered return from shared parental leave.

The Government are aware that some interested parties, such as the TUC, are concerned that there is no requirement on an employer to pay an employee more than their statutory payment when they are taking a keep-in-touch day. The Government will provide guidance to employers on how to use these provisions and will strongly encourage employers to pay an employee their full contractual rate if they work on a keep–in-touch day.

The Government believe that it is important to maintain the flexibility in keep-in-touch days to allow parents to return to the workplace for short visits. The Government do not wish to discourage these sorts of visits by forcing an employer to pay an employee’s contractual rate. However, where an employee is undertaking work, it is appropriate that that employee is paid accordingly. Keep-in-touch days are entirely discretionary for both an employee and employer to use. An employer cannot insist that an employee uses a keep-in-touch day and an employee cannot insist that their employer allows them to work part-time by using a keep-in-touch day.

As I have mentioned, shared parental leave and pay is an innovative system and will need time to bed down. It is right that proposals for leave and pay to be taken in periods of less than a week should be considered alongside any review of the shared parental leave system. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked why we do not take powers in the Bill to allow shared parental leave to be taken on a part-time basis, to be set out, in effect, in regulation. The Government are sympathetic to this proposal but without a clear policy to enable the shared parental leave to be taken part-time, regulations cannot be designed at this time. My department has explored this fully and will continue to consider it as part of the review of shared parental leave.

I hope that reassures the noble Baroness that the Government share her ambition and I ask her to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and my noble friend Lord Stevenson for their support for this amendment. The noble Baroness’s own experience is extremely important in terms of easing children back into childcare.

I will say more about this when I speak to my next amendment but I very much share the Government’s philosophy, as set out by the Minister, on shared parental leave. That is why I am so disappointed that they are not willing to go that little bit further.

I can see that there are administrative difficulties; I am not convinced that they cannot be sorted out. I am slightly encouraged by what the Minister said about changing the name of the keep-in-touch days and sending out guidance to employers about payment. I do not know whether the Minister has any figures now—perhaps he could let me know—on what proportion of such days are paid at present. It would be quite helpful to know that, perhaps before Report, in case we want to come back to this matter.

No one is asking for these regulations to be drafted now. Quite often a Bill will go through and regulations are not drafted for some time afterwards. Would it not be easier to put them in the Bill now? Even if nothing is done until the review takes place, at least they are there without having to legislate again, if by that time it becomes clear that part-time leave is really necessary for the shared parental leave provisions to fulfil the goals that we share with the Government. I hope that the Minister might be willing to think again about that. We are not asking for those regulations to be laid now, simply that the framework is there to enable flexibility in the future. On that basis, I withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I welcome this debate because it is important to ensure that the changes made by the Bill provide the right framework for modern families and workplaces. I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on the tremendous work she has done in the field of gender equality, and I know that she speaks from a position of great experience when debating these issues. As we are on the subject of gender equality, the noble Baroness raised the issue of the gender pay gap, quite rightly, through encouraging fathers’ involvement in home life. The Government agree that this is extremely important. That is why we are extending paternity pay powers in this Bill and will look to extend paternity leave and pay at a later date if we need to encourage fathers’ take-up, but I will be saying a little bit more about that later in my comments.

Greater paternal involvement brings enormous benefits to parents and children. Fathers who are engaged in caring for their children early on, as has been mentioned, are much more likely to remain involved as their child grows up. This involvement means that their children benefit from better peer relationships, lower criminality, fewer behavioural problems, higher self-esteem and higher educational attainment and occupational mobility. The Government are aware of the international evidence that demonstrates that fathers are more likely to take leave if it is reserved specifically for them and paid at a higher rate. The Government’s original ambition to extend leave reserved exclusively for fathers was set out in their Modern Workplaces consultation, which has already been pointed out. It consulted on the concept of a so-called “daddy month”, which would have reserved a portion of shared parental leave for fathers in a very similar way to the “father quota” leave entitlement proposed in this amendment.

Unfortunately at this time it is not possible to realise this ambition. The challenging economic circumstances have made such an extension simply unaffordable. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, will not be too surprised when I mirror what was stated in a response in the other place. Now is not the time to place additional burdens on businesses and the Exchequer and I realise that this immediate response will be disappointing to the noble Baroness.

The new system of shared parental leave will give families unprecedented choice about how to share the leave entitlement in the early stages of their child’s life. The Government hope that the flexibility and choice provided by the new system of shared parental leave will mean that fathers will take more time off to care for their children. The Government plan to review the decision on whether to extend paternity leave and pay by using information on the take-up of shared parental leave and pay from the series of surveys on maternity and paternity rights and work-life balance. If fathers are not taking up the new entitlement, the Government will look to extending paternity leave and pay to encourage more fathers to take leave.

The Government are taking powers in this Bill to allow for the extension of paternity pay which would enable the Government to extend paternity leave and pay at a later date through secondary legislation. I want to make that clear to the Committee. To maintain simplicity in the system, the Government consider it more appropriate to extend leave to fathers through an extension of paternity leave rather than introducing a new type of statutory leave which would be complicated to administer. Paternity leave is reserved exclusively for fathers and is already well established and understood by fathers and employers.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, mentioned an annual review. An annual review of this policy may not be possible or appropriate. The shared parental leave policy aims to encourage a long-term culture change in the UK to enable and encourage shared parenting in the early months after birth. Any assessment of the outcomes of the policy needs to understand how employee and employer attitudes, as well as behaviours, are changing. There needs to be flexibility in how this is monitored. The best source of information to understand employee attitudes is through surveys of employers and employees. This data take longer to collate to ensure that the survey includes individuals who have experienced shared parental leave. The Government believe that this is the most appropriate information to inform decisions about the effectiveness of the policy.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and other noble Lords in the Committee raised a very important issue about culture and the culture change that was necessary. I agree completely that culture change is what we need to see and the Government agree that it is essential. We will provide supporting guidance as soon as we can to help this change happen and to encourage employers and employees to embrace it. The extent to which the culture change we all seek has come about will be a critical part of the review of these reforms once they have had time to bed in.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, raised the issue of the father’s quota. If it would help, we will write to her with more details on that, in addition to the letter that I have written. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked why the level of take-up for fathers is estimated at between 2% and 8%. The impact assessment used figures from the maternity and paternity rights survey that I alluded to earlier in which fathers were asked whether they would like to take more time, if it was available. However, those are initial take-up estimates, and we hope that the culture change that I mentioned earlier will encourage a higher take-up in due course.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, who is not in her place today, are assured by the commitments that we have made. The Government will review the take-up of shared parental leave by fathers and consider extending paternity leave and pay in due course, to encourage fathers to take shared parental leave. Finally, I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that if paternity leave and pay is extended at a later date, the period within which it can be taken will also be extended. However, I hope, in the mean time, that she will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Meacher, for their support for this amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, made a very important point about the workplace culture. The experience of some of the Nordic countries is that changing the workplace culture is crucial in encouraging fathers to take leave. There is a link between the right to parental leave and changing the culture, and I hope that the department will reflect further on that.

On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, it seems to me that if both parents were more involved in bringing up their children, it might keep them together. I am not sure whether there is any evidence to support that, but we know that conflicts about who does what in the home and so forth can contribute to breakdown. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Stevenson for going as far as he was able to in the context, as I know he is sympathetic. I think we are all sympathetic, including the Minister. It is frustrating because I feel like the Minister made my case, in a sense, very eloquently, but then drew back from it by refusing to take that extra step.

I think I heard the Minister correctly and that he has made the commitment I asked for, which was that if paternity leave is extended, it can be taken later. The Minister is nodding his head, and it is very helpful to have that on the record. We now know that if paternity leave is extended at a future date, it could be taken—I hope he is saying—at any point during the parental leave period. That will reassure organisations outside that have been campaigning on this.

Unless this is what he proposes to write to me about, the Minister did not respond to my question about what plans the Government have to encourage fathers to take shared parental leave and whether he would give a commitment to consult on such plans and study what has been happening. There is a wealth of expertise—not so much mine but within this network—about what is happening in other countries. Again, I think the Minister is nodding his head, so perhaps I could put into the record that he is prepared to consult with the network of experts about how to achieve this culture change, even if we cannot go the full way in terms of having “daddy leave” in the legislation. The Minister has been nodding and not shaking his head in response to everything I have said. Does he want to say anything more?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I will just confirm that, as part of the review, these issues will be looked at. It is extremely helpful to have the input and the views from the Nordic countries. I suspect that officials are already looking at that but it is helpful to be nudged in the right direction. We will certainly be looking at this in addition to the other aspects of the review.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, I thank the Minister, but we do not want to wait for the review in 2017-18 before steps are taken to try to achieve this culture change. The culture change needs to be achieved alongside the introduction of shared parental leave. Again, I hope that a commitment will be made to thinking now about how to make that change, rather than waiting for a formal review. Unless the Minister has anything else he wants to add on this point, I will withdraw the amendment.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I rise only to say to the noble Baroness that I will be happy to continue these discussions with her. I stated earlier that I have not made a commitment to come back before 2018 and I would not want to do that today. Clearly, it is in everyone’s interests to make this work, and I have already said that we need more time than the noble Baroness has indicated in her remarks to ensure that the review comes through. However, we are happy to commit to consulting expert organisations both at home and abroad on how to achieve the culture change, which is something that I alluded to earlier.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

I am grateful to the noble Viscount and for the constructive way in which he has engaged in this debate. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Payday Loans

Debate between Baroness Lister of Burtersett and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am very certain that it will be part of the discussions. I can give no guarantees, but the whole point of the summit is to discuss these important matters further.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

My Lords, what action will the Government take to ensure that the monthly payment of universal credit on top of benefits now being delayed for a week does not send more people in poverty into the hands of payday lenders, as has been predicted?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Baroness makes a valuable point on the transition to universal credit. When it is complete, we estimate that there will be approximately 8 million universal credit claims. My colleagues in the DWP and the Treasury are working together to produce the right sort of advice, and they have made clear that some claimants might need additional help to budget. We are working with the advice sector to provide the appropriate advice.