Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Baroness Hussein-Ece Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Lloyd of Berwick
My Lords, the Minister has not advanced this evening any of the arguments that she advanced at the beginning of January for repealing Section 3 of the 2006 Act. I will therefore leave those arguments on one side.
Instead I will turn to the arguments advanced by the Minister in the other place. He asserted boldly that Section 3 of the 2006 Act should be repealed because it was not a core purpose of that Act. With great respect, that is exactly what it was. Section 3 was in a sense the core purpose of the 2006 Act, that purpose being to bring together for the first time in legislation equality rights with other fundamental human rights. The specific duties under Sections 8 and 9 were to be the means of bringing about that core purpose. That was the very point made by Professor Sir Bob Hepple in his report. He said that Section 3 is important because it states for the first time what he called the “unifying principle”. It is most unfortunate that the Minister in the other place, when he came to his reply, did not reply to that argument or to any of the arguments advanced in the other place; sound arguments and convincing arguments, they were all, unfortunately, left aside because there was no time to deal with them.
There is a hint, elsewhere in what the Minister said, that Section 3 is undesirable because it would, as it were, take the commission’s eye off the ball to the exclusion of the important duties under Sections 8 and 9. There was never much danger of that. In any event, the commission has now made it clear, if I am right, that it would now welcome the retention of Section 3. If that be so, surely we should leave it at that.
It is not often on these occasions that we should resist the view of the House of Commons at this stage of ping-pong. However, the Government have not given one single solid reason why we should repeal a provision that both Houses were in agreement on as recently as 2006. As I have said, the Minister did not deal with any of these arguments in his reply. We should give him another opportunity of doing so, and another opportunity to the other place to see if they agree with those arguments or not. For that reason, I will vote for the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I pay tribute to the work and the steely determination of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. She has been inspirational in her continuing support for what she believes to be an important principle and issue. Many of us share her passion and determination.
It is very poignant that today we are again debating the general duty of the Equality and Human Rights Commission and its principle on the 20th anniversary of the terrible racist murder of 18 year-old Stephen Lawrence, and on the day of the memorial service that was held this afternoon in his memory, which I understand was attended by the Prime Minister and others.
Last month at an event to launch a book about the Macpherson inquiry, Doreen Lawrence said that, as a mother, for 20 years she had not been able to grieve and find closure because she had been forced to fight for justice, year after year. There are still individuals out there today who were involved in this murder and who have not been brought to justice. She wrote to the Prime Minister last November asking that he does not row back or seek to water down hard fought equalities legislation that all political parties came together to put on the statute book so recently to protect those who need protecting.
Huge progress has been made over many decades, particularly since, for example, my own family came to the United Kingdom, when racism and discrimination was rife. However, there is still much to do to ensure that our society becomes more equal, and that we maintain and build on such positive work, particularly since the Macpherson inquiry and its findings. It is irrefutable that more than a decade later, the Macpherson inquiry can rightly claim to have led to an overhaul of Britain's race relations legislation which created much stronger anti-discrimination powers that can be found anywhere in western Europe. Attitudes towards racism and policing have now changed as a result. However, there are still very many people and communities who need to be protected and encouraged to achieve their potential and not be limited by prejudice or discrimination. We need the commission to have the tools, the ability and the duty to monitor the progress in our society.
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Baroness Hussein-Ece Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I apologise for not being able to be present when this amendment was debated in Committee. However, I have read the debate and the balance of opinion clearly lay with the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton—not surprisingly, given the powerful speech she made and the one which she has also made today. It is a privilege to support an amendment moved by such a respected champion of equality and human rights, who I would like to call my noble friend. In doing so, I wish to address just two points that emerged during the debate in Committee.
First, the Minister argued that the general duty contained in Section 3 “creates unrealistic expectations”. She went on to acknowledge the importance of the statement contained in the general duty and suggested that it could,
“be replicated in the commission’s own strategic plan”—[Official Report, 9/1/13; col. GC 61.]
or mission statement. Surely, however, that is to undermine her own argument because if the problem is one of unrealistic expectations, they would still be created if replicated in a strategic plan or mission statement.
The other main argument put forward in the debate was that repeal of the general duty would not make any difference anyway, as it is of symbolic rather than practical importance. This is the official stance taken by the commission itself. I have two responses to that: first, as a number of noble Lords noted in Committee, this justification was challenged by Professor Sir Bob Hepple of Cambridge University. He argued that Section 3 has an important legal function and that without it equality law would be “rudderless” and would lack the “important unifying principle” that Section 3 provides, and which the Joint Committee on Human Rights welcomed in its report on the Equality Bill. However, even if the significance of the general duty were more symbolic than practical, symbols matter in politics and we should not underestimate the symbolism of removing the section. The deluge of e-mails that I have received in recent days defending Section 3 is a testament to the power of that symbolism.
At a time when politics has become increasingly managerial and uninspiring, I find it rather wonderful that the Equality Act contains an aspirational, visionary statement of intent. Moreover, the European Commission study on national equality bodies advised:
“In order to fully realise their potential in promoting equal treatment for all, equality bodies should develop a vision of their role within the administrative culture and society”.
It is a sad day if the vision enshrined in the legislation is now struck out. As the British Institute for Human Rights argues, it sends a worrying message that the Equality and Human Rights Commission,
“is to be a compliance factory with no real ambition or purpose”.
I fear that the suggested alternative put forward by the commission in its briefing, namely that it should be,
“a national expert on equality and human rights”,
and the strategic regulator for equality offers neither ambition nor visionary purpose but is, as the British Institute argues, purely descriptive, as the noble Baroness has already said. It offers mundane prose where Section 3 offered the poetry of high ideals.
I hope that the Minister will have thought again in the light of the support for this amendment in Committee and the public concern now being expressed. If not, should the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, decide to test the opinion of the House, I hope that noble Lords will support her. The amendment will cost nothing, but it will provide reassurance that the work of the Equality and Human Rights Commission will continue to be framed by a vision of society in which each of us without exception is treated equally and with dignity and respect—the core principles of human rights.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I associate myself with what has been said by the noble Baronesses, Lady Campbell and Lady Lister. I do not want to repeat what I said at Second Reading—we had a very full debate then—but I was disappointed that we continue to hear that removing the general duty was a bit of tidying up and that it would have no effect whatever on the work or legal responsibilities of the commission. The question that has been put a number of times, including by myself, was then why do it? Why do something if it will have no impact at all? I am afraid that the reply has not given me much confidence.
I strongly believe that the Government have a choice between a strong independent body that is committed to promoting and safeguarding our values, which I believe are British values, independent of the Government of the day—whichever colour—or we go for the option of a watered-down, less independent, weaker institution, which in time would be rendered merely an enforcement agency or regulator without the vision and underpinning that is so important. I cannot think of another organisation, independent or statutory, that does not have some sort of mission statement or a duty to promote or do something. This is the only organisation of its kind in this country. Are we suggesting that the Equality and Human Rights Commission does not need such a mission or values, which were very much fought over and arose as a result of cross-party agreement when the Equality Act 2006 was debated and enshrined?
I said at Second Reading, and it is worth saying again, that the then Opposition gender and equality spokesperson Eleanor Laing, MP, spoke of how important it is that the general duty is ambitious and wide ranging. With the change of government and apparently as part of an unwritten agreement, this seems to have changed for whatever reason, and I am disappointed.
There is an opportunity here for the Government to say what sort of organisation we want. We have a choice, but I also think that maybe we need to take a step back. Perhaps this is not the right place to debate what sort of mission statement or general duty an organisation as important as this, with such a multifaceted function, should have at this stage. We evidently need more time to consider this. It cannot be resolved via this Bill on the Floor of the House.
Will the Government take this away and consider the type of organisation they want and what they want it to do? As I said, in line with other organisations, if not in this country then in the world, it should have some form of agreed mission statement incorporating its aims, responsibilities and duties to the taxpayers and citizens of this country. The Government should do this in consultation with the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and bring it back to the House. Will the Minister respond to that?
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, Amendment 76 concerns equality impact assessments and would reinstate statutory requirements to undertake them as part of the public sector equality duty. An equality impact assessment involves assessing the likely or actual effects of policies or services on people in respect of disability, gender and racial equality. While equality impact assessments are not legally required, they have been widely adopted as an effective and efficient means for public authorities to undertake proper consideration of equal opportunities. They are described by the authorities that use them as,
“a positive force for the delivery of real equality”.
Moreover, case law suggests that these assessments provide robust evidence documenting how decisions were reached. Indeed, case law has confirmed that to have due regard to equality, a public authority needs to gather sufficient information about the impact on equality, give such information proper consideration at a formative stage of decision-making and consider whether any negative impact can be eliminated, mitigated or justified. Authorities are also advised to have some kind of audit trail to show that the actions they took comply with the duty. Therefore, while it is true that the courts have never held that there is a requirement to complete a written equality impact assessment or that having an equality impact assessment itself is sufficient to show compliance with a duty—especially if it has been completed with a purely tick-box or form-filling mentality—the main components of a good-quality, substantive equality impact assessment process are what the courts have held to be necessary in order to have due regard to equality.
It does not help to ensure public authorities’ compliance with their duty to have the Prime Minister and other government Ministers simply dismissing equality impact assessments as wasteful, bureaucratic and unnecessary exercises. Rather than calling time on equality impact assessments, as the Prime Minister did at the CBI conference in November 2012, we believe that these vital assessments should be enshrined in legislation. We therefore call for an additional amendment to be made to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill that would require public authorities to assess, consult, publish and monitor the likely impact of proposed policies.
This becomes even more important when, days after the announcement of a review of the public sector equality duty by the Secretary of State, Maria Miller, the Prime Minister announced that public sector organisations will no longer be required to undertake equality impact assessments as a means of fulfilling their obligations outlined in the public sector equality duty. Instead, these important assessments have been dismissed as unnecessary.
Repeated government announcements about equality law being burdensome red tape, the declaration of the Prime Minister at the CBI conference, and the dismissal of equality monitoring by the Communities Secretary Eric Pickles as unnecessary, intrusive and a waste of taxpayers’ money, fuel our concerns about the removal of these assessments. Indeed, I was reflecting that it would be nice if this Government actually made some positive announcements about equality impact assessments and how they are necessary to judge the impact of how public money is spent and used. Just saying, as the Prime Minister did, that,
“We have smart people in Whitehall who consider equalities issues while they’re making the policy. We don’t need all this extra tick-box stuff … so I can tell you today, we are calling time on equality impact assessments”,
seems to me to be a somewhat facile assessment of what is a useful public sector tool.
It is notable that the review of the public sector equality duty comes after the Government were criticised by the EHRC for failing to abide by the requirements within it. Furthermore, despite its membership including four Conservatives, not one Labour politician has been appointed to the steering committee that is reviewing this. Will the Minister tell us when the steering group looking at the public sector equality duty is due to report? My understanding is that it has been further delayed and that it will not now report until the summer. How is the steering group conducting its inquiry and who is it inviting to talk to it about the public sector equality duty?
Will the Minister also comment on a recent blog for Liberal Democrat Voice by the BIS and Equality Minister Jo Swinson? She seemed to imply that the duty has actually held policymakers back from properly considering equality. She said:
“As Liberal Democrats, we do not think equalities should be about ticking boxes and regulatory hoops—it’s too important to be relegated to an administrative duty. Advancing LGBT, gender, disability and race equality will only be achieved by putting equalities at the heart of every department”.
She is right about that, but you also need to see the effects of the policies you are pursuing.
The Minister needs to address two issues. First, if you do not have an equality impact assessment, how will you assess the effect of the work of public authorities? Secondly, if the body that is reviewing the public sector equality duty reports back that it does not think it is necessary, what will the Government do with that information? Are we going to find ourselves at the end of the summer in a situation in which the Government completely stop looking at the impact of any of their policies, spending commitments and decisions on factors such as age or gender, or on any of the different groups, such as LGBT people, covered by equality legislation? I am at a loss to know what direction the Government think they are taking with this so-called regulatory reform. I beg to move.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment, to which I have added my name, as it seems to me there is an awful lot of misinformation regarding the benefits of having an equality impact assessment as part of the public sector equality duty. The noble Baroness has just mentioned tick-box exercises and bureaucracy, and described how this provision can be seen as a burden. However, it is an important tool and has been successfully used to assess the impact of public services and of government policy on vulnerable people. For many decades this was not the case. I cite my experience of working in a health authority before the public sector equality duty came into force, when it was very much up to the relevant health authority to assess whether different sections of the community or different groups received the same level of service, whether they could access that service and, indeed, whether the service was even appropriate. The public sector equality duty has gone some way to ensuring that vulnerable people, who are not always able to articulate the fact that they are not accessing a service or not benefiting from public services, are catered for and is an important way of ensuring that services are tailored to the local community. As I say, it has achieved some success.
I am not going to defend in your Lordships’ House every aspect of the way that this provision has been implemented. Of course, there is always room for improvement and greater accountability, and the amendment tries to address that. However, we must ensure that equality and the right of access to services is open to all, regardless of who they are or their background. Concerns have been raised about the way in which the steering group that has been mentioned has been established to review this issue. There does not seem to be a lot of transparency in the way that the review will conducted. There is also a lot of concern about the independence of the group given that everybody on it seems to be from a political party. I know that there is somebody from the Liberal Democrats on it but I have had no contact with that person. I would like to know how the group will take evidence and evaluate whether equality impact assessments should be changed or, indeed, removed. I, too, would like more information about this steering group which has been charged with this very important task.
As I say, the duty encourages proactive action to close equality gaps in health provision for different ethnic and other groups, and to ensure that services meet the needs of those who use them. It provides an important evidence base to support provision that is effective and efficient and ensures that services provide value for money, so it has served an important purpose. I hope that the Minister will accommodate some sections of this amendment and will look at equality impact assessments as a way of assisting the provision of services as opposed to being detrimental to them. I declare an interest as a commissioner of the Equality and Human Rights Commission when it instigated a review of the Treasury’s compliance with the duty as regards the 2010 spending review. The public sector equality duty can make a huge difference if applied purposefully, and was seen by people in the Treasury and, indeed, by people in government as a helpful thing to do. Aspects of that spending review, such as its impact on women and minority groups, might not have been considered, so the duty was seen as a positive and helpful measure. I hope that the Minister will say how she thinks we may continue on a positive note by rolling this out.
Baroness Prosser
Before speaking to this amendment, I should like to clarify for your Lordships any question of a possible conflict of interest. I was until 3 December last year the deputy chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. At that point, I had served two three-year terms and my appointment terminated. I therefore no longer have a direct interest in the commission but I do of course retain a general interest in both the commission and its work.
Turning to the matter at hand, perhaps I may express to noble Lords my overall view of the value of this part of the debate on Clause 57 and why this group of amendments is so important to the future of the commission and to equalities in our country more generally. The ability of citizens to feel and believe that they have an equal chance in life and, importantly, to feel and believe that their Government think they should have an equal chance is key and central to the development of a harmonious and comfortable society. At this particular time, with its harsh economic circumstances and shortage of employment opportunities, it is common for those who are struggling to lay the blame for their plight on those less familiar to them.
Situations such as these require Governments to be strong and forthright in making clear their support for tolerance and fairness, and to speak loudly of the value of legislation and government machinery which helps people to enjoy equal rights and to access recourse to justice when those rights are violated. Comments from government which continually link equalities legislation with red tape, bureaucracy and burdens undermine the confidence of citizens and allow for the growth of intolerance and unfair behaviour. The purpose of this group of amendments is to enable the Government to be seen to recognise that the Equality and Human Rights Commission is a valuable, serious and important tool in delivering and regulating equality legislation in this country. It would put the commission on the same footing, for example, as the National Audit Office, the Electoral Commission and the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman.
Strengthening the commission’s accountability to Parliament has been endorsed by the United Nations International Co-ordinating Committee chair. In a letter to the then Minister for Equalities, Theresa May, the ICC chair, Dr Mousa Borayzat, suggests that the Government should use the opportunity of this Bill to strengthen the provisions of the Equality Act 2006 in areas related to the commission’s independence.
Parliamentary scrutiny of the appointment of the commission chair has already taken place. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, appointed in November of last year, appeared before the Joint Committee on Human Rights. That extra interest and study of the recommended candidate not only adds to the status of the appointment but involves and includes Parliament in the process. Greater knowledge and greater transparency ensue. Amendment 77 calls for this process to be extended to the appointment of commissioners—again, increasing knowledge and transparency—and I look forward to the Minister’s response on that point.
Amendments 78 and 79 seek to rectify the current unsatisfactory position whereby the commission’s annual report and accounts and the strategic plan are presented to whichever Secretary of State happens to have the current responsibility for equalities generally. Since its inception, the commission has reported to four different Secretaries of State, each of whom has had equalities added to their already busy portfolio of responsibilities. Changes to the responsibilities of those Secretaries of State have meant that the commission has been shuffled around Whitehall depending on where the Secretary of State came from. It is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. Given that the rights and responsibilities contained within the equalities agenda touch every single adult in the land, is it not more sensible and more appropriate for Parliament to oversee and question these important reports and plans?
Finally, I turn to Amendment 80, which calls for the commission’s budget to be approved by Parliament. Two dangers arise from leaving the situation as it is. First, the current practice is for a budget allocation to be drawn up and allocated to the Government Equalities Office. This money then gets separated out with a share going to the EHRC. This hardly helps to instil any sense that the commission can maintain a healthy independence from government. Secondly, and most seriously, the EHRC is internationally recognised as the national human rights institution for England and Wales. Crucially, financial health and independence are central to our being able to maintain that international recognition.
In 2012, the UN General Assembly adopted the Belgrade principles. These relate to the relationship between NHRIs and national parliaments, and they include several mechanisms for closer relations between parliaments and national human rights institutions. For example, parliaments should develop a legal framework for the NHRI which secures its independence and its direct accountability to parliament. The principles also suggest that parliaments should invite members of NHRIs to debate their strategic plan and/or their annual programme of activities in relation to their annual budget. These amendments would enable government to state clearly that arrangements in this country most certainly comply with the Belgrade principles.
None of these amendments should concern the Government’s desire to go easy on regulation or so-called red tape. They are all designed to help the Government to promote their commitment to the equality and human rights agenda and to send a message to the citizens of Britain that government believes in openness and transparency and the delivery of equal opportunities for all. I beg to move.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I shall not keep the House too long as the noble Baroness, Lady Prosser, has given such a comprehensive introduction to this group of amendments, to which I have added my name. There are just a few points that I should like to add.
The steps outlined in the amendments are, as I see it, enabling. They enable the commission to fulfil its mandate more effectively and to achieve more balance between independence, accountability and transparency. They build on recent developments such as the first pre-appointment hearing of the commission’s chair, as was mentioned.
I declare an interest as a commissioner of the Equality and Human Rights Commission until last December. I am all too well aware that the commission is very keen to advance its relationship with Parliament and to have the ability to work across government departments. As has been said, the current arrangement has acted as a hindrance and has not oiled the wheels, so to speak, to enable the commission to work more effectively with other government departments—something that it should be doing. It has the responsibility to work with all departments across government, given its wide-ranging remit. The current arrangement of going through the Government Equalities Office has limited this to an extent. I see the commission’s responsibility for assessing how the Government comply with, for example, domestic and international equality rights obligations as a positive development and a strengthening of its relationship with Parliament.
At Second Reading, I said that setting the budget is so important that it needs to be done in a more timely, transparent and effective way. I was at the budget-setting process last year. I remember being at a board meeting in February when the commissioners still had no idea what their budget would be from 1 April. That is not satisfactory or acceptable, and it needs to be addressed. Taking these amendments on board would go some way to addressing this and making sure that the commission becomes more transparent and accountable and is allowed to function. We talk about a red tape challenge, but it goes both ways. There has been a lot of red tape attached to this commission from its inception. It has almost been bound and gagged at birth and has not been allowed to function properly. This is a way of releasing it to an extent, while keeping some important checks and balances in place.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I agree completely with the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece. I have written down “micromanagement by the Government Equalities Office is a bit of a red tape challenge that the Government could probably do well to look at”, so our thoughts were heading in the same direction. I see this group of amendments as continuing the positive discussion that we had in Grand Committee, where the Minister started to explain where the Government were going and what the direction of travel was. I see this group of amendments as part of that process and discussion, and I congratulate my noble friend Lady Prosser on her introduction.
What we are essentially addressing here is how the EHRC can deliver its statutory responsibility to assess how the Government comply with their domestic and international equality and human rights obligations, how it can best do that and how it can be independent in doing so. It seems to us that parliamentary accountability would provide the commission with that appropriate independence from Government to fulfil its role impartially. I hope that the Minister will accept something that I said in Grand Committee: this is not a means of stopping the Government setting the overall policy direction on equality matters. Everybody accepts that that is the Government’s job. However, it means that our Commission for Equality and Human Rights, apart from anything else, has the necessary independence to from time to time be critical of the Government and hold them properly to account.
Disability Services
Baroness Hussein-Ece Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, for securing such an important and timely debate. I also thank Scope for the excellent briefings it made available, and the Equalities National Council for its very insightful report and studies.
There are at least 1 million disabled people from black and minority ethnic backgrounds in the United Kingdom. We know that many face considerable difficulties in their daily lives yet are unable to access the services that they need. We heard in the most recent census about the demographic changes in our society that mean that there will be many more BME disabled people in future. It is therefore important that provision and policies are developed in a timely way for disabled people who rely on these services.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Ouseley, I care for my disabled mother, who is 80 and whose language skills are not very good. She cannot read English very well, despite being in this country for many years. I do not know how she would cope without me. She probably would not be able to remain in her home without my family’s support.
I will talk today about the plight of disabled children from black and minority ethnic backgrounds. I declare a personal interest in the issue; I have a grandson who has disabilities and special needs. He receives support from a number of excellent voluntary agencies. The report rightly highlights the problem that BME disabled people’s needs and views have fallen between the two policy areas of disability and race equality. Finding ways to bring these two policy fields together is becoming more urgent and important for developing effective support. This is a classic example of how people from BME communities struggle and face double discrimination.
Yesterday I was in Grand Committee, arguing against proposals to make changes to the Equality Act and to the remit of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. The case was made very strongly by many noble Lords that we need to retain a strong and robust commission that retains its general duty to promote work that enables disabled people, as well as people from other protected groups, to participate in society with dignity. That phrase came across quite strongly yesterday. The commission should also retain a duty to promote and encourage favourable treatment of disabled people and to work towards eliminating prejudice and hate towards disadvantaged groups, which include disabled people from BME communities.
The noble Lord, Lord Boateng, asked an important question about the Red Tape Challenge that I will repeat because it is so important. When it was launched, I was very concerned that the Equality Act, a piece of primary legislation that affects the lives of so many people, was included in its remit. Will the Red Tape Challenge be used to reduce the public service equality duty? This is exercising and concerning many groups that rely on it.
Nearly half of all minority ethnic disabled people live in household poverty, compared with one in five of the population as a whole. Overall, we know that families from minority ethnic groups caring for a severely disabled child are even more disadvantaged than white families in a similar situation. Families’ experiences, needs and circumstances vary across ethnic groups.
Carers for people from BME communities are not always aware of the support that is available to them. A key way of addressing this would be for social care services to develop stronger links with local BME communities. I was struck by the case highlighted in the report of Anwar, a 16 year-old boy with complex physical needs and learning difficulties. It is a very good example, and sadly by no means unusual. For several years, Anwar lived alone in an unadapted flat above his family’s corner shop. He had no wheelchair and no way of getting down the stairs independently. He was not in school or able to access any services, and his only contact was with his family. Although they visited regularly, if he wanted to leave the house he had to be carried down the stairs by his brother. It was not until a neighbour told the family about a local support group, which he learnt about having met them at the local mosque, that Anwar’s circumstances changed. A support worker ensured that he was allocated a social services care package, given a wheelchair and eventually rehoused in an accessible ground floor flat, where he is able to live independently. As I said, this is a typical case.
Stigma is also a big issue that affects many minority communities. It can lead to social isolation, with families and carers struggling to cope behind closed doors for fear that they will be made social outcasts and blamed or in some way held responsible for their child’s disability. During my 16 years as a councillor in inner-city boroughs in Hackney and Islington with high levels of disability among BME communities, I spent much of my time on casework when people came to me to raise these issues. Many Turkish families came to see me because they had got nowhere with mainstream services. Because I could talk to them in Turkish, I was able to act as an advocate and try to get the most basic services for them. It was heartbreaking that they had to come to their councillor to get these services. What would have happened had I not been there? That is the test.
The report mentions that it is more usual for Muslim and Hindu communities to face social isolation and stigma. Recently I heard of a Turkish father struggling with his severely autistic child whose behaviour was extremely challenging. His wife had attempted suicide because of the strain of the situation and the lack of support. The father, whose English was not great, was the main carer and was unaware of the support that was available to him to apply for. Thankfully, he was referred to an excellent charity, Centre 404, based in Islington, where a Turkish specialist worker was able to help him apply for additional services such as much-needed respite support. We have heard how interpreting services and advocacy play a key role in this sort of case and in many others. Are the Government encouraging local authorities to ensure that advocacy is available to BME communities and carers? It can make such a difference in enabling a better and dignified life as opposed to an existence.
The examples I mentioned illustrate the reality that the mainstream social care system—my noble friend Lord Addington touched on this—is effectively adversarial. In effect, people compete for services. The most articulate and assertive—or those whose families or carers are the most articulate and assertive—are more likely to succeed and to get the right services. Specialist knowledge and research is also needed into ways of accessing support. For many families and carers from a BME background, it is incredibly difficult to navigate through the system to get the additional support that can make such a difference to their life chances and to their ability to fulfil their potential. Stigma and social isolation are widespread among carers for the disabled from a BME background, especially women.
The report highlights the importance of services operating at local level having close relationships with community groups such as mosques.
One of the key recommendations, which has already been mentioned, is that following the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination there have been recommendations from Scope and other race equality groups that the Government develop a national race equality strategy. I want to underline the importance of this and ask the Minister if this is being taken seriously. These issues urgently need national leadership. Some of the concerns that I and others have raised are that, going by the proposals to reduce the duties that I mentioned earlier, the present mood music and signals are not encouraging. I will also ask the Minister about equality impact assessments. When producing new policy or legislation, as recommended, will these important matters continue to receive support?
Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Baroness Hussein-Ece Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
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Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I, too, support Amendment 27 and associate myself with the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, and other noble Lords who tabled it. I will try not to repeat anything that has been said. I, too, am dismayed and frankly puzzled that the Government are proposing to remove Section 3 and the general duty on the Equality and Human Rights Commission. This was discussed at some length in 2006. That was before my time in this House, but I followed the debate very closely. It was a relatively short time ago and all parties at the time agreed to these principles. I understand that the objectives were discussed extensively with business, NGOs and others in the field.
I will draw attention to one interesting quote. Eleanor Laing MP, speaking as shadow Minister for women and equalities, said:
“The important thing about clause 3 is that we all admire the aspirational nature of the general duty within it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 30/11/05; col. 36.]
If we fast forward to the present day, we see that having a wide-ranging, aspirational duty is seen as a hindrance to the Equality and Human Rights Commission in carrying out its work effectively. In briefings that I have attended it has been mentioned that the duty is too wide-ranging and that the commission is not able to focus sufficiently on a narrower remit. I apologise for not declaring an interest: I was a commissioner at the Equality and Human Rights Commission for three years until last month.
I would like to know what has changed. I still have not heard any compelling or rational argument about what has changed, and why it is proposed that the commission should no longer have a duty to promote work to eliminate prejudice and hate towards these protected groups. What has changed in our society since this relatively new Act, which is still bedding down, came into force? Are we a more equal society? Has something happened that some of us may have missed? Is racism declining? Is hate crime falling? As the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, mentioned, just today we read in the newspapers that Stephen Lawrence’s brother has launched a legal battle against the Metropolitan Police, claiming to have been stopped by the force up to 25 times purely because of his skin colour. This is still a very common experience for many black and Asian people. This comes at a time when one in five young men—21%—in young offender institutions identifies himself as Muslim, compared with 13% in 2009-10. We have 60% unemployment among young black men. Race and disability hate crime is unfortunately still rising. What has changed such that we need to take away the general duty from the Equality and Human Rights Commission?
I would also like to know what is wrong with promoting good relations. Why is that now seen as a hindrance to the commission’s work? What is wrong with promoting good relations between different sections of society? No other statutory body has this remit. If it were to be taken away who would do this work? Who would show the leadership that is needed to tackle these issues? Who would understand them? Which non-government statutory body would be able to take this up? I strongly suggest that this is not the time to weaken the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s remit.
Is this the time to be sending out negative signals, which were mentioned earlier, and to be seen watering down and neutering this country’s main race, equality and human rights watchdog? I have heard it said in briefings that this will make no difference. If this is to make no difference, why are we doing it? Surely it is better to have a wider remit that is aspirational and that allows the commission the freedom to tackle some of these issues and carry out in-depth reviews, as has been done before. What is wrong in allowing this to happen? Surely the perception and the signal that not allowing it sends out is that this Government do not value race equality, or equality for disabled people and other protected groups.
On the issue of good relations, it has been repeatedly pointed out in briefings that since its inception the commission has not always functioned properly. There were problems and nobody can duck that, but it has made huge strides in the last few years. The organisation has reformed and slimmed down a lot, and in its work has been far more strategic and effective than in some other reviews that have been carried out. It is important to note that promoting good relations between members of different groups has allowed the commission to work in relation not just to race, but with groups such as Gypsies and Travellers who, sadly, do not have the protection that other groups have. It has been able to look at interfaith relations and hate crimes, as mentioned; causes of violence against women; intergenerational issues; and highly stigmatised groups, such as people with mental health problems or HIV/AIDS. These are serious issues that need to be tackled. The Equality and Human Rights Commission is best placed to understand interracial and inter-religious tensions and advise on the best way that they can be addressed. In proposing the removal of these clauses the Government are doing more damage than they realise.
Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, I rise to support what the noble Baroness has just said. One of the first things that I did when I joined the House of Lords was to speak in favour of admittedly a similar aspiration provision, but in my view appropriately. It might have been on an amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Lester, in legislation in 2000. The concept eventually found its way into the 2006 Act.
When Parliament agreed this provision it was on the basis of discussion with a wide range of organisations. It was widely welcomed. Why? We do not have a fair and unprejudiced society. It may be that everyone in this room is fair-minded, but fairness and good relations between groups do not exist when, for example, Gypsy, Traveller and Roma people are harassed about where they can live. The noble Baroness mentioned that young people now describe themselves as Muslim in larger numbers. Gypsy and Traveller children dare not describe themselves as Gypsies and Travellers, because of the things that have happened to them.
We have a society in which children with disabilities are bullied in school. Members of minority groups that make up our society are denied jobs because of stereotyped expectations. Old people are despised and neglected. The ordinary self-respect that people need, particularly children, is undermined. This is at the expense of social cohesion and an ordinarily decent society. I support this group. I think that it is necessary to give the EHRC a proper strategic approach to help bring about a fair society.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I, too, have put my name to this amendment to move towards greater direct parliamentary accountability for the Equality and Human Rights Commission. As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, this could be advantageous as a tidying-up exercise. It needs to be done. Given all the criticisms that the commission has faced from individuals and others, some of which have been about its accountability to Parliament, I am slightly disappointed that the Government, in drafting these various changes, did not take the opportunity to look at making the commission better able to fulfil its mandate as Britain’s equality regulator and national human rights institution in accordance with the Paris principles, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, said.
Unfortunately, the commission has come under sustained attack. Some of that has been quite intense and some of it has been justifiable, but a lot of it has been rooted in the past and has not recognised the work that the commission has done, how much progress has been made and how much the commission has moved on from those early years when the three organisations came together.
In terms of greater accountability, I think that what is proposed would be desirable. It would ensure greater transparency and openness. It would assist the commission in its statutory responsibility to assess how the Government comply with their domestic and international equality and human rights obligations. Parliamentary accountability would provide the commission with more independence from the Government in order to fulfil this role rather more impartially. At the moment, we do not have the best of both worlds. The commission is partly accountable to the Joint Committee on Human Rights and it is partly accountable to the Minister through the Government Equalities Office. As the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said, that relationship has not always been positive; it cannot be deemed to have been a successful relationship.
There has been turbulence as a result of reorganisation. With each reshuffle—every couple of years, it seems—the equalities unit and, by virtue of that, the commission have been shunted about. I think that it is on its fourth or fifth government department. As was said, it was initially under the Department of Trade and Industry, then the Department for Communities and Local Government and then the Department for Work and Pensions; then it was standalone and now it is with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. That does not provide the organisation with the stability and continuity that are needed. These constant changes have in some respects been detrimental to the commission’s work and some of the blame for that has to lie at the door of the last Government, as has been acknowledged.
There have also been problems with the sponsoring department. The commission has never had, certainly in the three years when I served there—others may bear me out on this—the independence to act as other non-departmental public bodies have been able to. For example, permanent senior appointments have always been at the behest of Ministers giving the go-ahead. I found myself in the situation when, after the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph and other newspapers criticised how much was being spent on consultants for temporary positions, we advertised at great expense for a permanent chief executive. That was then stopped because, for whatever reason, it was not deemed to be the right time. That meant that there was another delay. The acting chief executive continued and it was a couple of years before we had a permanent chief executive in place. The same has happened with other senior appointments when the commission was not given permission by the Government Equalities Office, through the Minister, to appoint a permanent director for various positions. It was quite unfairly pilloried in the media for wasting public money when it did not have the independence to make such appointments. If we are going to have an organisation which we want to be independent and robust, it has to have freedom in that regard.
In order to retain the commission’s “A” status as a UN accredited national human rights institution, it needs to be assured and shored up. On occasion, there have been letters threatening to remove the “A” status of the commission purely because of activities from government departments that have been outside its control. It is time to allow the commission to have the consistency, the stability and the independence that it needs but also to be robustly accountable to Parliament. Models for other regulators and national human rights institutions have already been mentioned. There are others, including Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, and the Electoral Commission, which we could look at and which work perfectly well.
Accountability to government would allow the commission to work across government bodies. That has been a problem, particularly when the commission has wanted to look at issues which do not come under the remit of the sponsoring committee or department. There have been problems about working cross-department as well. This proposal would give it the freedom to do that and would satisfy the Cabinet Office test for independence and accountability against which all public bodies are reviewed every three years. It would also allow the commission to formalise relationships and fulfil its mandate as a regulator, which it has not been able to do. I strongly recommend that the Government look at this and I will be very interested in what the Minister says in reply as to whether the Government will look positively at this.
I know that in previous discussions—I am grateful that the Minister has made herself available for discussions and briefings—the Government have not felt that this is an issue and that it should not be touched. It is interesting that for other things legislation is needed, whereas, so far, something that would make this organisation far more accountable is not deemed to be needed, although I am hoping to hear a more positive reaction today. The appointment of the chief executive and of commissioners would be subject to parliamentary ratification. For those who have followed some of these things in the media recently, the last tranche of appointments of commissioners has not been exactly exemplary and probably would not have been tolerated at other organisations.
In terms of the commission being directly responsible, it could respond directly to parliamentary questions rather than the Government responding on the commission’s behalf, which is the problem at the moment. The commission’s budget also could be set by Parliament, rather than the arcane situation that exists. I seem to remember that as late as the end of February/the beginning of March of this year, the commission still did not know its budget for the coming financial year, which would be unheard of at any other organisation. I strongly endorse this amendment and believe that it could strengthen the independent requirement in Schedule 42 to the Equality Act 2006.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
My Lords, I am sympathetic to the object of the amendment. I just want to supplement that great summary of the history given by the noble Lord, Lord Low, by adding one or two aspects.
When the previous Government introduced the 2006 Act, I was was pressing for something on exactly these lines and I was concerned about the Paris principles. Thanks to the creativity of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, in particular, we were able to write into that Act some guarantees of the independence of the commission which are still there and I am delighted to see will remain. We removed all the bossy, ministerial interference provisions that were originally in the 2006 Act and that would have given powers to Ministers to intervene all over the place in the commission’s work. All those were wisely removed by the previous Government. We then introduced an express provision stating that Ministers were not allowed unnecessarily to interfere with the commission—that is still in the 2006 Act. We also introduced an obligation on the Minister to make sure that enough funds were available to ensure that the commission could carry out its work effectively in accordance with its statutory duties. We also introduced a merit requirement for appointments. All those are still there.
One of the great problems, however—it has been referred to by my noble friend just now—is that the commission when it was set up became the orphan of Whitehall; that is, no major government department was willing to take responsibility for or ownership of it to give it the backing that it really needed. I can say as someone who was the unpaid independent adviser to the previous Government’s Minister of Justice and Lord Chancellor, Jack Straw, that I was unsuccessful in persuading the previous Government that the Ministry of Justice should take charge of this area, because, frankly, the civil servants at the time did not want to know. And so, a strange floating kidney was set up instead. It was not a proper department and it did not have any of the power and influence of a major government department. That led to all kinds of managerial and other failings from the beginning through lack of proper back-up within the Administration. This was not just the fault of Ministers; it was more a fault of senior civil servants, including a Permanent Secretary whom I went to, who said that they would rather not want to know, thank you very much, because it was too difficult or too hot a potato.
That is part of the background. As the noble Lord, Lord Low, has indicated, the Joint Committee on Human Rights on which I serve has several times advocated that there be proper parliamentary accountability, not only because of the Paris principles but because it is healthy in a parliamentary democracy with a body of this kind for there to be a proper relationship.
One thing to have changed since we on the JCHR made those reports is the appointment of the new chair, whom I am delighted to see in her place, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill. Her appointment was made only after the Joint Committee on Human Rights interviewed her and came to the conclusion that she would be admirably well qualified for the post. Another change is that the Joint Committee will now have the main responsibility for the work of the commission; it will not be split, I think, with the House of Commons committee. We are a Joint Committee of both Houses comprising six Peers and six MPs; we cannot be controlled by Government because one of us is a Cross-Bencher—we are the only parliamentary committee of which that is true—and we are not tribal or party-political in the way in which we conduct ourselves. We have real expertise going back for more than a decade.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
I want to come back on one point, if I may. In 2003 the Joint Human Rights Committee had three reports, and one of the clauses said that,
“as a guarantee of independence … Parliament should be directly involved in setting the budget of the commission”.
Can the noble Lord clarify that he said he could not see the point in that? He seems to be contradicting what the report said.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I was talking about an idea that I thought was being suggested—not that there be some kind of consultation but that Parliament itself, or a parliamentary committee, should agree and set the budget, rather than that being done by the Treasury and the responsible government department. Of course, it is possible to have consultation by a parliamentary committee on the size of a budget and how it is to be spent, but under our system of parliamentary government, it seems to me that the ultimate responsibility for deciding on the budget and ensuring proper accountability is through the accounting officer—normally a Permanent Secretary in charge of the department, who is then accountable to Her Majesty’s Treasury and to Parliament. We tried all of that when we looked at the Judicial Appointments Commission; we tried to ring-fence the budget of the Judicial Appointments Commission and of the judiciary as a whole, but failed to do so for similar reasons.
I am sympathetic to the idea of parliamentary involvement and accountability. All that I am suggesting is that the way forward is to encourage the Joint Committee on Human Rights, if it is willing to do so, with the consent of the Government, if they are willing to do so, to develop new protocols that will allow this kind of accountability to occur. I am sympathetic with the object, but I do not think that the amendment is the best way forward. Similarly with regard to annual reports, there is no reason why there should not be a report that is then scrutinised and discussed with the commission by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It seems to me to be better to have an existing piece of expert machinery than to create a new Joint Committee of both Houses without purpose.
I say all this with no authority; I do not speak for the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It has not considered that; nor do I have any idea of whether the Government is be sympathetic. I am a member of the committee suggesting that as one way forward.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I think that it is true to say that there have been unintended consequences in the way that equality impact assessments have been applied in some instances. The views just expressed by my noble friend are widely shared in some quarters. However, I associate myself with this amendment in an effort to reform what we understand by equality impact assessments and to bring to them a sense of balance. I also want to highlight their importance and not lose sight of why we had to have them in the first instance.
Of course, there has been change. The Prime Minister mentioned that these assessments would be done away with, and there has been discussion of changing the terminology used from “equality impact assessments” to “analysis of the effects”. We need to be clear about how terminology is used in decision-making. We should focus less on the production of a document and more on impact. That needs to be clarified. More clarification is needed on intentions because it seems that government policy is veering towards getting rid of these assessments. Are we to understand that there is no longer a wish to know in advance about the impact of policies on different groups of people? If so, that needs to be said clearly.
There are concerns that too much time is taken in conducting spurious or inaccurate equality analyses, and perhaps many people conducting analyses have not always understood them. Proposed new subsection (6A)(e) refers to,
“training staff in connection with the duties imposed by this section”.
There seems to be a bit of a gap between what is expected and what should be produced at the end of the process—what we are looking for as an end result. How can we be sure that government policies do not have the effect of treating some groups of people less favourably than others if there is no evidence of consideration of the likely impact on these different groups?
A recent review of government policy suggested that there was little evidence that the impact on people had been considered when plans and proposals had been circulated. Surely we do not wish to see a return to the situation that prevailed between the late 1970s and the 1990s, when the duty under Section 71 of the Race Relations Act was applied only to local government and not to other public services such as the police. It is important to recall for the record that it was not until the Macpherson report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence that the public sector equality duty was extended to all public authorities and private organisations contracted to deliver services. Asserting that equality is being considered is not the same as providing evidence. The way the evidence is produced may be contentious. I have no problem with it being more streamlined and sensible.
My final comment is to highlight something positive that took place in the past two years. The Equality and Human Rights Commission, using its unique powers under Section 11, conducted an impact assessment on Her Majesty’s Treasury, among other government departments, to assess the extent to which the Treasury had met its legal obligations to consider the impact of the 2010 spending review decisions on protected groups. This was a really positive piece of work and I commend it the Committee—it is on the website and your Lordships can read it in the report. The work was embraced by the Government and government departments that have not done this before. It was a first instance; it had not happened under the previous Government and was the first report on this scale. It gave a set of recommendations for how to target spending to ensure more effective use of public money and greater fairness across government overall. It was a very significant work, so we have some good practice on how it can happen. I urge that we look at ways of reforming but retaining this very important legislation.
Violence Against Women
Baroness Hussein-Ece Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, for securing this important debate. I, too, woke up this morning to the horrifying headline news of the 14 year-old Afghan child who was beheaded by members of her family because her father had refused a marriage proposal for her. As we debate how we have a responsibility to lend our weight to end violence against women around the world, this terrible tragedy comes as a stark reminder of the urgency of this issue.
Michelle Bachelet, director of UN Women, in her message for the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, called for bold action and decisive leadership to galvanise efforts to end the pandemic of violence against women and girls. Today, we know that 125 countries have laws that penalise domestic violence, which is a huge step forward from a decade ago, but that is not enough as 603 million women live in countries where domestic violence is still not a crime. Recently, a high-profile, educated woman from the Indian subcontinent told me of an incident where a senior official casually in conversation talked of how when he beat his wife, she knew what she had done wrong. This is by no means an unusual attitude and is not necessarily confined to poorer communities. I experienced threats of violence myself some years ago, when I set up the first project and centre to support Turkish and Kurdish women who experienced violence in the UK, from the very men who perpetrated that violence against women and their family behind closed doors, or who, often in the name of their so-called honour, which, as we all know, is dishonour, tried to control women by using violent methods.
Having laws in place is not enough. We need those laws to be properly implemented. We know that legislatures and enforcement authorities are usually dominated by men who often do not see this issue as a priority. We must do better to protect women and prevent this pervasive human rights violation. Governments and leaders must lead by example. Many Governments, such as the Afghan authorities, make promises, but it is time for Governments to translate international promises into concrete action. We need an increased number of women in politics, law enforcement and peacekeeping forces as well as economic opportunities for women. We also need educational campaigns, both here in the UK and elsewhere, that teach human rights and advocate mutual respect that will inspire young people so that the next generation can show leadership on ending violence against women.
Here in the UK, we are still working hard to eliminate and educate people in our society to change behaviour and attitudes, but according to the NSPCC sadly one in three teenage girls experience sexual violence from their boyfriends. We need to look at how women are being portrayed in some sections of the media, particularly in online sites.
In showing leadership and using our influence to progress this work internationally, will the Minister consider whether the UK will lend its support to the recommendations that Oxfam, among others, has put forward on human rights featuring prominently in UK diplomacy at international and country level with specific attention to gender-based violence, including sexual violence, and also on championing a place at the table for women in peace negotiations, in line with UN Security Council Resolution 1325, to help to ensure that gender-based violence is recognised as part of any peace process and that women’s rights are sustained over the long term?
As the noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, said, the 57th session of the Commission on the Status of Women will be held next March and will be on this theme. It is important that the UK Government show leadership at this event and support the call from UN Women and its expert group for the development of an international implementation plan to end violence against women. Will the Minister say whether this will be the case?
Crime: Violence Against Women and Girls
Baroness Hussein-Ece Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister share my concern that 10% of boys think it is okay to slap their girlfriends and that one in three teenage girls have experienced violence from their boyfriends? Does she not agree that more needs to be done to educate young men and boys in schools? The police should have a role in trying to ensure that crimes against girls in the form I have just described are reported by schools and there should be proper programmes whereby boys learn about respectful relationships with girls.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
I certainly agree with my noble friend that victims of violence extend to young girls in relationships, and that boys need to be educated. In fact, I will next week answer a Question about what is being done to help men who are inclined to this dreadful behaviour. It is worth making the point that one of the changes that this Government have made is to extend the definition of domestic violence to include violence against girls who are 16 and 17, and that is a welcome measure.
Welfare Reform Bill
Baroness Hussein-Ece Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Empey
My Lords, I thank the noble Countess for the intervention, but because of the grouping I had thought that this was like a Second Reading and I am trying to address the issue of housing—the subject of the amendment. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Newton, that the grouping is unfortunate.
The point that I am trying to get to is: it will not be possible to change the welfare system without upsetting some group or other in our community. I therefore believe that if we put the amendment in the Bill, the Minister and the Government, including their successors, will be hidebound by it. However, the Minister has also heard the widespread view in the House that we are confronted with an area of concern, particularly when children are likely to be moved from their homes, lose their schools and all that goes with that. Secondary legislation is the right place in which to put this issue but, if we believe we can go through a process of changing the welfare system and not affect a particular group in the community, we are misleading it as well as ourselves.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, I also came to the Chamber intending not to speak but to listen carefully to the arguments. I feel moved to speak because of my personal experience as a local councillor in inner city areas such as Islington and Hackney, where homelessness and poverty have gone hand in hand and where over several decades we have seen the decline of affordable housing that ordinary families can rent. The two previous Governments have to take responsibility for not building enough affordable housing. That is the fact of the matter and the elephant in the room that is not being addressed.
It therefore pains me when I hear people around this Chamber, whom I respect, saying, for example, that families are moving to upmarket areas such as Hampstead in order to live in a better area. I have never seen evidence of that. When families through no fault of their own lose their home, which might be because it has been repossessed or they have been unable to keep up with the mortgage payments, they naturally present themselves to the local authority. The local authority has to take a view in making an assessment of such families and, if the family is not dysfunctional enough, if the children or either parent do not have enough of a disability or they do not have enough points—because it is all done on a points system—there is not much that the local authority can do. Very often, those families or individuals are directed to the private sector. Local homelessness departments will usually give them a list of estate agents where they can go to find somewhere. Often, families who have lost their homes will end up in the private sector. The private sector has filled the gap, certainly where I come from in Islington, between the unaffordable private homes and social housing. It has taken up the slack there. Of course, prices have shot up because of demand. That is not the fault of people who have become unintentionally homeless.
I hear my noble friend saying that 76 per cent of the public support a cap. I do not think that anyone in your Lordships' House would disagree that there should be some form of cap and that it should not be an open-ended provision. It is the implementation, how this will work, that is worrying many of us here. We should not force out families from areas such as mine. People often think that Islington is a very rich area full of wealthy people, which it is, but it has the third-highest level of child poverty. We have the extremes: very rich people and very poor people. The very rich live in the houses that have become increasingly unaffordable for most people, and the rest live in social housing, apart from some in the middle who live in private accommodation. I want to live in a mixed community. I do not want to live in a Paris-style ghetto. I do not want ghettos such as in Paris, where the poorer families have been forced into the doughnut outside the city. We should support mixed communities. We want our children to have a healthy outlook and mix with people from all different backgrounds.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I apologise for interrupting my noble friend, but I think that she is trespassing again on a Second Reading speech, and I invite her to bring her comments to a conclusion.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
I apologise. Although we have heard the assurances that there will be transitional arrangements, I have not yet heard what those protections will be for the families who will be most affected.
Lord German
My Lords, I start by making it clear that the concerns that have been expressed from these Benches are not around there being a cap. It is essential that there should be a cap; people find it manifestly unfair that claimants can receive in benefits more than the average working family gets in wages. The concerns expressed within the amendment are about two crucial issues: homelessness and housing; and the vulnerability of children. We are looking for discussion and reassurances from my noble friend the Minister on the issues raised by the cap. Our concern is about how those policies will be ameliorated—how to find a cap that fits.
I remind my noble friend the Minister that in Committee he said:
“The Government are looking at ways of easing the transition for families and providing assistance in hard cases. We recognise that there are households for which it would be inappropriate to restrict the amount of benefit that they can receive”.—[Official Report, 21/11/11; col. GC 346.]
The Government have already announced in another place and here that transition arrangements are to be made. This is the opportunity for my noble friend to express the Government’s views on those two crucial issues contained in the amendment. These details should emerge at this stage because it is appropriate that people know the Government’s direction of travel. It is not simply a question of us accepting that you need flexibility for the future. I understand that the Government’s regulations will follow from these debates, that there will be affirmative resolutions and that the House will have the opportunity to hear and vote on the detail. We need reassurances now in the broadest terms about the issues raised in the amendment.
I appreciate that by DWP standards—the noble Lord, Lord Fowler has said this already—the numbers captured by this policy are small. However, they are small only in respect of the DWP’s overall workload, not in terms of the 67,000 families or the 220,000 children who will be affected. We cannot put aside the fact that there is personal impact.
First, I turn to the issue of homelessness. I understand—we heard it this morning in a broadcast by the Secretary of State, and it has also been referred to in this debate—that the numbers of potential reported homeless households is based not on rooflessness but on the structure of how this is measured by the Department for Communities and Local Government. I wonder what reassurance my noble friend can give that we will not find families out on the street, that we will find homes for people and that they will be accommodated. If the numbers who are classed as homeless are those who are sharing rooms, which I heard from the Secretary of State, what methodologies and transition arrangements are being put in place? After all, if people are entitled to be classed as homeless by virtue of that definition, and are sharing a room, what is to prevent them presenting themselves to a local authority as homeless, thereby generating further cost to the public purse and creating no savings whatever? What transition arrangements will be put in place to ensure—what this House is asking for—that no one should be made roofless as a result of this policy. Any savings if they were to come by having to throw the balance to another department might be illusory. I am seeking reassurance from my noble friend the Minister. We want to hear the outline of the arrangements to be put in place to ensure that we do not sustain expenditure by simply passing costs from one department to another.
We are told that the department now has extensive information on the households that will be affected by the cap. I seek reassurance that there will always be a property available—not necessarily close to the same street in which the people have lived—for the people who will be displaced and that they will always have somewhere to live. Crucially, what help will be provided in the transitional period between now and April 2013 and perhaps, beyond, given the Minister’s comments in Committee. I also ask him to outline the processes to be put in place during this transition period and to provide the reassurances needed to demonstrate that rooflessness and overcrowding are not options that the Government are considering.
A second issue, which we will come back to in another debate, is that of children. This issue is mentioned in this amendment and has been raised before. It is indeed a powerful statement that children are not responsible for the decisions of their parents, but in workless households the worst disincentive is not to aspire to work. Those of us with experience representing the poorest areas—in my case, the poorest area—within our country know that it is a dreadful stigma which we place upon our young people. I wonder whether the Minister can provide some reassurance and tell us what arrangements he is making. What support will be given to the longer term aspirations towards work for our younger people? Alongside this is the impact of a parent becoming unemployed without suitable transition arrangements.
Perhaps all these issues need to be outlined in principle now, so that my noble friends on these Benches and noble colleagues around this Chamber can decide whether the Government are keen to ensure that the impacts are going to be ameliorated by this cap.