Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 21st November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I shall be addressing my remarks only to certain parts of this somewhat hybrid Bill, starting with the provisions for legal aid cuts. Obviously all departments—indeed all of us but we are discussing departments—must share the burden of these cuts. The legal aid system may indeed have become bureaucratic and expensive. In 2009-10 it spent more than £120 million. But as one young lawyer’s e-mail pointed out, the average salary for a young legal aid lawyer is £25,000, which is comparable to that of a teacher or policeman. So quite clearly other parts of the system need attention as well as what we pay lawyers.

Upstairs in Committee on the Welfare Reform Bill, one of our major concerns is to see that the most vulnerable sections of our community—children, the disabled, those with special educational needs and their carers—are protected as far as possible from the otherwise laudable attempts by government to get those who could be in work back into employment, an aim which would be even more laudable were the jobs available. But with the many changes that the LASPO Bill brings, the need for expert legal advice for vulnerable groups will be of even greater importance if the resulting, long-term costs for this group are not to escalate, as other noble Lords have mentioned. A particular area of concern for SEC, the Special Educational Consortium, is that young people with SEND aged between 16 and 25 who are not in school, or not in provision formally designated as a school, will be outside legal aid. Nor apparently does it cover young people with a learning difficulty assessment, which sets out the support they need beyond school; that is, in a college. As SEC points out, help and advice in that particularly difficult transition to adulthood can be important for SEND families.

Equally worrying, the Equality and Human Rights Commission points out that the new criteria for receiving legal aid for private family law may well mean that fewer victims of domestic abuse will be eligible for support. The basis for these concerns is that almost 50 per cent of family court cases where a report is ordered may have involved domestic violence. Government reassurance that legal aid advice will be available beyond doubt in these circumstances is therefore important. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, made that point clearly.

We all know that imprisonment of children is both expensive and ineffective, with 80 per cent of those imprisoned reconvicted within a year. It is therefore good to see, not least because one-third of children currently remanded to youth detention are subsequently given community sentences, that Clauses 91 to 94 of the Bill, dealing with youth detention, place two sets of conditions on the court before a child can be remanded. The Government are rightly commended for this by the Prison Reform Trust, and for giving the court in Clause 73 extra powers conditionally to discharge the young offender or indeed to give a second referral order.

I turn to what follows, or should follow, from sentencing and punishment: rehabilitation. As the Prison Reform Trust points out, young men aged 18 to 20 are disproportionately represented in the prison population and clearly have not been, and are still not being, diverted from falling into a repeat pattern of offending. A much more focused approach to rehabilitating young offenders is needed. The Prison Reform Trust gives as examples two successful intensive-alternative-to-custody schemes run by Greater Manchester Probation Trust and West Yorkshire Probation Trust, both of which have achieved good results.

However, it is surely even more important to focus, much earlier in a child’s life, on early intervention. We now have conclusive evidence from Frank Field, Graham Allen and others that this approach is the way forward. The Government are again to be congratulated on taking an important step by committing to early testing of all children at the start of their primary schooling. Funds for further research are still needed to identify those chaotic families with many generations of offending behind them as the real targets for extra help and supervision. If this is achieved it will not only help to ensure useful and satisfying lives for such children, but will be saving a considerable amount of the literally millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money spent unnecessarily on prisons.

Last, and certainly not least, I turn to women. As the CAB and Equality and Human Rights Commission point out, indirect discrimination is unlawful unless it can be objectively justified. Yet over the past 15 years numbers of women in prisons have doubled. Many of these have themselves been victims of serious crime, domestic violence and sustained sexual abuse. One-third lose their homes and, worse, around 18,000 children are separated from their mothers. In 2009, women accounted for 43 per cent of the 24,114 incidents of self-harm in prison, although women are only 5 per cent of the total prison population. One essential amendment, backed by PRT, NCW and others—and certainly backed by me—would be to require the Government to produce a strategy to promote the just and appropriate treatment of women in the criminal justice system. When he replies, I would be very grateful if the Minister could give us any hope that the Government will indeed consider producing such a strategy.

Young People: Politics

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am not sure whether that particular part of the Localism Bill will have an impact in the way in which the noble Lord implies. As I have just indicated, the Government are taking a great deal of care and attention, particularly about individual registration. Going back to the original Question, we are taking particular care to try to ensure that young people register to vote.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

Will the Minister assure me that there will be young apprenticeships available for young people which will in fact enable them to give some of their time to the sort of projects suggested? I think that there is rather a dearth in the number of young apprenticeships available for young people.

[Lord McNally]

On the contrary, my Lords, one of the things I think this Government can take pride in is the funds that they have made available to extend apprenticeships. I think that over the months ahead we will see apprenticeships increasing in exactly the kind of areas in which the noble Baroness has asked for them.

Prisoners: Sanitation

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

It is not helpful to suggest that it is disgusting to ring a bell to open the cell door in order to use the toilet. As my noble friend said, that applies to fewer than 2,000 prisoners in a prison estate of nearly 88,000. They have to do that because in certain prisons it is physically impossible to put in the facilities that would be desirable.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

The independent monitoring board makes no mention of women. Will the Minister confirm that this grossly offensive practice—I stress those words—of slopping out does not apply in women’s prisons? If that is so, does not equal treatment mean that this should be an equally unacceptable practice in all men’s prisons?

[Lord McNally]

It is an unacceptable practice. I understand that the only time people are asked to use a removable bucket to slop out is if there is a breakdown in the system. I am assured that in no part of the prison estate do women have facilities other than in-cell facilities.

Social Mobility Strategy

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords—

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, we have not yet heard from UKIP. May I suggest that we do so and then hear from the noble Baroness?

[Lord McNally]

I am not sure that I can—all my briefing for the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, refers to Europe, so I am not sure. I also see too many educational experts around for me to play this one on the hoof. I do know—as we all know over our lives—that some of the most inspirational people we have ever met have been our teachers. We also know that some of the people who take the toughest jobs and help the very young people we are talking about are teachers in deprived areas. So I am not going to make any comments on teacher quality. I am pleased with the scheme that encourages graduates to go into teaching for a time. It is a very good idea and I am pleased that some of them, having experienced it, stick to it. But I am sure that the noble Lord is right that a high-quality cadre of teachers is part of the solution to social mobility.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, perhaps I may take a rather different line. Quite a lot of criticism has been coming in the direction of the Minister, but I should like to congratulate him and the coalition Government on the approach that they have taken to the issue, particularly the fact that the issue now appears to be high up on their agenda. However, as we are referring to the life-cycle approach, I should like some reassurance that this will include, and not place in a separate category, the need for early intervention as described in the two important reports by Frank Field and Graham Allen which we have discussed in your Lordships’ House. That alone would enormously help the whole business of social mobility.

[Lord McNally]

I fully accept what the noble Baroness says. With regard to the source of those reports and Alan Milburn’s involvement, I hope that we can attempt this with some degree of cross-party consensus. It is not the case that we have just discovered the problem of social mobility; as I said before, it has been around for a long time. Without playing prolier-than-thou, I come from a working-class background and in my childhood I was surrounded by what I call the aspirational working class. My father, who was a process worker, was one of the best-read men I know. How we instil in some of the more deprived families the kind of aspiration that there was in, say, the Welsh mining community and other, older working-class communities, I do not know. As my noble friend Lord Dholakia said, one sees it in some of the immigrant communities. There are factors that hold people back but poverty and deprivation are not the only ones. That is why just throwing money at some of these problems is not the solution either.

The fact that this has been announced—slightly differently from the way I announced it, evidently—by the Deputy Prime Minister, with the machinery in place overseen by Alan Milburn to check against results, means that this is not just about motherhood and apple pie but is a genuine attempt, building on some of the work of our predecessors, to be tested against results, to try to deal with a problem that, as I say, has challenged our society since at least the Second World War.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 7th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newton of Braintree]

My Lords, those of your Lordships who were in the Chamber about an hour and a quarter ago when I was assiduously seeking to gain some brownie points from my Front Bench in order to have some cash in the bank to spend later will know that later has now come. Before I say anything else, I perhaps ought to declare some kind of interest in that I chair a mental health trust which runs a low-secure unit and provides mental health services to a young offender institution in the vicinity. That does not make me an expert in the sense that many of those who have spoken are experts, but it gives me an interest in the matter.

I do not want to make many points because they have all been made, and I cannot think of a word, so far, with which I have disagreed. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, understated the position: there has not, so far, been a word that I take to be supportive of the Government’s current position, including, if I read them aright, the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Eccles, which I took to mean, and I agree with them, that this is not an issue of whether Ministers are accountable—of course they are accountable—it is a question of how that accountability is best exercised and through what machinery it is best exercised. I share the views expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Ramsbotham, and others that this line that independent oversight of the youth justice system is no longer required is, frankly, a heresy that flies in the face of all historical experience. We are all agreed that when the YJB was set up, the system was a mess and needed improving. We are all agreed that it has been improved. What we do not agree is that because there was a mess that has been to some degree improved we should now go back to put the whole thing into the same type of machinery that created the mess in the first place. That is the proposition we are being asked to adopt.

My final point, except one, is that I am slightly saddened by all this because of the link that has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, with the admirable White Paper Breaking the Cycle. This is inconsistent with the spirit of Breaking the Cycle. It is certainly an approach that, if persisted in, could alienate many of us, including me, who very much support the thrust of Breaking the Cycle and who believe that it is productive and a sensible way forward. I really do hope that the Minister will be able to give us some hope of further thought, discussion and compromise on this.

Indeed, I was much attracted by the idea that was introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, of a possible NDPB with non-executive directors. That could be a better mechanism, but, whatever else, we need something other than just abolishing the YJB, the proposition that is implied in the schedule at this stage. I do hope that my noble friend will be able to give us some hope of change.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I shall, at what looks like being the end of this debate, be very brief. I, too, am a huge supporter of the Youth Justice Board, particularly in its latter years. Frances Done has done a quite remarkable job, as I think we have all said. We have had such a compelling debate that I really cannot bring myself to believe that the Minister will be able to reject such a range of compelling arguments.

I will make just one point that is pretty much based on what my noble friend Lady Howarth has just said. I really do think that built into the system as it is there will be a likely growth in the number of young people who are deprived and who are in huge danger of continuing their life in the criminal justice system. Just think back to Keith Joseph and his “cycle of deprivation”. That said it all. Let us face it; we did not do much to reduce the number of those coming into that cycle until quite recently. I hope that what we have seen the beginning of will contribute to that, but we need to look much more widely. Early intervention will certainly be one of them—and I mean very early—as well intervention as at other stages at which problems are identified.

I thank the Minister for the way in which he has kept us informed and for his latest letter on 3 March. I am concerned that the type of big society that the Government are backing will have different approaches in different areas. We have the Youth Justice Board, which does a marvellous job of co-ordinating different departments and putting the whole view to others to take note of. However, in the future, so far as I can see it, we will have individual bodies with their own views, which the Government encourage. What about the bodies that, frankly, do not think that this is a priority? My question to the Minister is this: what are the Government going to do to encourage them to change their minds? They must have something up their sleeve —I will not call it a bribe, but I think that that is what I mean—to change their policies and to realise just how huge the long-term cost will be in not addressing this whole subject.

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords, on behalf of Her Majesty's loyal Opposition I give my wholehearted support to the amendment moved so ably in the names of my noble friend Lord Warner and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. I declare an interest because, as the Minister knows, I too was a Minister with responsibility for the YJB at a number of stages.

I bow to no one in my admiration and affection for the Minister, and I commend him for his bravery in seeking to reply to what has been an overwhelming debate. However, I urge him, perhaps with great expedition, to take immediate advantage of the very kind and generous offer which my noble friend Lord Warner made to him and to submit himself to the intensive supervision and treatment so that he can be restored to his previous good conduct. We know that for someone who has always been of good behaviour, returning to good behaviour is easier when the treatment is swift and direct, so let me assist.

I hope that it is by way of comfort when I say to the Minister that when considering this amendment I reasonably anticipated—although I did not see who would be here—that one would expect to hear from the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Lords, Lord Dholakia and Lord Elton, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, my noble friend Lord Beecham and the noble Baronesses, Lady Linklater and Lady Howarth. I have to confess that I was surprised that their ranks were swelled by the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, and I was warned that the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, could be added to the list, because he was not on it before I entered the Chamber.

All that I can say to the Minister is that when I was in a similar position to that which he now occupies and was privileged to be a Minister, the one thing on which I could absolutely rely was the trenchant support which the Youth Justice Board would rightly receive from all sides of the House. One of the first leading the charge when he sat on the Liberal Democrat Benches would always have been the noble Lord, Lord McNally, ably assisted or led by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. He is only lucky that several other noble Lords are not also here—the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and others—to swell the ranks. But he can imagine what they would all be saying to him at this moment. The Tory Benches have been distinguished today by our hearing from the noble Lord, Lord Elton, but the Minister knows well that the Chief Whip—the great noble Baroness, Lady Anelay—had she been on the opposite Benches, would have given two barrels in relation to these issues too. I hate to tell the noble Lord that my estimation is that he has been holed below the water and that his ship is sinking fast. Of course, there are a number of things he can do to rectify that situation.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, believes that the Youth Justice Board has done a splendid job and has achieved much. What I do not understand is why he thinks that the job of the YJB is over when the vulnerability of those young people, who are still ensnared by criminality and the tentacles of dysfunction, means that they persist in needing the specialist care and holistic treatment which the YJB so ably provides. I say holistic because, as has already been made clear in the very eloquent and informed speeches which have gone before me, the YJB encompasses issues which are far broader than those which remain the preserve of the Ministry of Justice.

The board’s success has rested in no small part on its ability to draw together issues which are the responsibility of a number of different government departments—the Ministry of Justice, the Department of Health, the Department for Education, the Department for Communities and Local Government, and my old office of the Attorney-General—together with local and other public authorities in the third sectors. As such, youth justice is now a national system, albeit that it is primarily locally delivered. It really has enabled an array of agencies in criminal justice, which need to work in an integrated way with a range of organisations providing services to children and young people, to do so. As a consequence, the youth justice system is necessarily complex and I know that the noble Lord understands that complexity. Therefore I am puzzled as to how the innovative multi-agency work that the Youth Justice Board does so well, and which it has hitherto been able to develop by working in unison with all the other agencies, is going to be continued.

Prisons and Young Offender Institutions: Education and Training

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am afraid that that is not in my briefing but I will write to the noble Baroness and put the information in the Library. It is important to engage prisoners of all ages into the concept of learning, and I am sure that a writer in residence will be a spur to that end.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, considering the sizeable percentage of prisoners with mental illness, can the Minister tell us what the Government propose to provide the necessary education and training to meet the unique and challenging needs of this population?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I hate to keep saying “Shortly a paper will be published”, but the Department for Education is about to publish a Green Paper on special education needs, which will look again at the special education needs of prisoners. One of the things pointed out in the Green Paper published by the MoJ—it is still open for consultation for another four days—is that far too many prisoners have undetected mental problems. We are making every effort to ensure that opportunities and facilities are in place to detect and help to treat those problems.

Prisoners: Diet

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

A number of these issues will be discussed in the Public Bodies Bill that is going through this House. I am hoping, at some stage during that Bill, to be at this Dispatch Box explaining our policies on these matters. The issue of victims is not simply about victim support groups; it is central to getting at the basic causes of crime and of reoffending. We have a system where 50 per cent of our prisoners reoffend. If we can cut into that, we are cutting down the numbers of prisoners and the victims of crime.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that one way both to improve the health of the prisoners and to train for the future might be to run a celebrity chefs course as part of the full-time work that the coalition Government are going to be introducing?

[Lord McNally]

I am not a great fan of celebrity chefs, but that is just a personal opinion; I know how popular they are. The Prison Service has recently been invited to consult on food, nutrition and behaviour within the young offender institutions, and the School Food Trust, a non-departmental body set up by the Department for Education and Skills, is looking into that with the Howard League for Penal Reform. I understand that it is operating on the basis of work done by Mr Jamie Oliver.

Prisons: In-cell Sanitation

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Absolutely. I have read this report and followed it up. Prisoners lying back on their Dunlopillo mattresses watching colour television before taking a Jacuzzi is the image of prison life given in some of our popular press. Prison life is grim and sometimes downright unpleasant. Whether that meets with approval or not, it is the reality.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

Having listened to what has been said today, I think that we cannot tolerate this situation and I hope that putting it right will be top of the agenda for prison governors, NOMS and everybody. At least as a temporary measure, if any of this is going on in prisons where prisoners are still locked up during the day, could I ask that we encourage the firms that the Government are thinking of encouraging to set up a business or factory within the prison so that at least the prisoners can be employed during the day?

[Lord McNally]

As we have already been doing, we will certainly consider the idea of in-prison work. The dilemma is whether you have toilets in a cell, which is not itself particularly pleasant when you also eat your meals in that cell and share it with another person, or an efficient system of release to a wash block where toilet facilities are available. That is what is used in 3 per cent of the prison estate. I am not sure that I can give the noble Baroness or any noble Lord an early solution to that dilemma.

Prisons: Young Offenders

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 21st July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I can assure my noble friend that suitable, adequate and proper training is exactly what is under way. It has been suggested, particularly in the media, that some of these techniques were in general use. The techniques are for when an unarmed officer is under attack. I have looked at the manual and at some of the techniques highlighted by the media. On almost every occasion, the last line is: “The member of staff exits”. These are not techniques to inflict pain on young people; they are techniques to enable unarmed, unprotected members of staff who under attack, often by large and quite violent young people—we use the word “children” very casually—to escape from those situations.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, in view of the considerable concern that has been expressed about these techniques, which have been used even quite recently, will the Minister undertake to ensure, while the review is under way, that a report is made to Parliament of every incident that takes place?

[Lord McNally]

No, I do not think that I can do that. There are regular reports and there is a body that reviews these incidents. I share some of the concern, but we are talking about 3 per cent of young people who are put into custody. As I emphasised in response to a question the other day, this is very much a last resort. The number of people going into custody has fallen dramatically in recent years—I pay tribute to the Front Bench opposite for what it achieved—but we also have a duty of care, both to the staff who deal with these often very violent young people and to other inmates, who may themselves be the subject of attack. I have committed to visit two of the institutions, to look at them and to talk to the staff. As I said, a thorough review has taken place and a new manual will be published imminently.

House of Lords: Working Practices

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 12th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, with the many different and time-consuming activities of your Lordships’ House, I have come to think about this issue of continuing reform and updating the House’s processes and working practices rather late. Therefore, I particularly thank the Leader of the House for this fascinating and extended debate on the subject. I have now begun to look at the different papers that have been produced, including the Library note that was produced only last Thursday. What a wonderful job the Library does in keeping us informed on so many issues, as we all know. I express my considerable admiration for all the detailed thought, hard work and expertise that these and the previous reports—to which they refer—have over the past decade, since the removal of the hereditary Peers, clearly entailed. They illustrate the value of the huge range of expertise and experience that your Lordships’ House contains. I am one of those in your Lordships’ House who, like my noble friend Lord Luce, is opposed to the coalition proposal for a fully or mainly elected second Chamber. As such, I am certainly not opposed to making more democratic and effective use of our time and resources and, in particular, meeting our citizens’ demands for rather more openness, clarity, public involvement and knowledge of how we go about our duties.

The number of detailed recommendations contained in these papers is considerable. I have immediate very positive reactions to a few points, such as more pre- and post-legislative scrutiny, and clear description of and justification for Bills before this House. I very much like the idea, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that there ought to be some method of letting us know which parts of Bills coming from the other place have not been discussed, so that we can get straight on to those. Setting up a Leader’s Group, now that that has been decided, is clearly the best way forward for the consideration of the totality of the issues before us.

Looking through the papers, I was also immediately struck by their underlying similarity in two essential respects, which will need rather more specific action. First, although there is and will be a need for some form of usual channels, in their present form, the hidden, rather secretive way in which they operate is viewed as rather less than democratic by those not within their magic circle. Secondly, the way the House operates needs to take Back-Benchers’ and Cross-Benchers’ interests more obviously into account. Several noble Lords have made this point, not least the Leader of the House himself. Furthermore, the interests and needs of the wider public should be taken into account as well as those of Cross-Benchers and Back-Benchers.

My thoughts on this go back to my own entry, nearly 10 years ago, to the House as one of that first batch of appointed, so-called—rudely—people’s Peers. Coming directly from chairing the Broadcasting Standards Commission, it was a surprise to find that no House of Lords communications Select Committee existed for this crucial and growing area of importance. Not surprisingly, I set about trying to secure the establishment of such a body, not least because a little research showed that nearly 100 Members of your Lordships’ House had experience, expertise or interest in this area.

The formal approach we made to the Liaison Committee when Lord Williams of Mostyn was Leader of the House certainly produced a hopeful reaction to the suggestion that the committee be set up after the Communications Act 2003 became law. Sadly, though, when that time arrived, he was no longer with us and the reaction of the next Leader—the noble Baroness, Lady Amos—was, frankly, bewilderingly different, rejecting totally the need for any Lords communications Select Committee. However, by that time, an informal group from all sides of the House had come together and eventually, after a strong debate in the Chamber, the Select Committee on Communications was indeed set up. Since then, under the distinguished and expert chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and many important reports later, the considerable value of its work has by all accounts been very widely recognised. However, the fact remains that during the earlier difficult period, it had been almost impossible to find out why “the establishment” was being so stubborn about everything. It was all conducted in a secretive manner. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, was kind enough to say that the decision had probably tipped in the right direction because of the extent to which I had made rather a nuisance of myself.

From that I come to one suggestion for fairly immediate change, which is no more than an imitation of the change recently accepted in the other place; namely, that there should be a greater willingness in your Lordships’ House to enable decisions to be taken by a ballot of the House itself—for example, to decide whether a specific select or other important committee is to be established or, if that is thought to go rather too far in favour or popular choice, at the very least to decide who the members of that committee are to be, and who is to be its chairman. That suggestion is not a way-out novelty. As we all know, it figures in several of the papers being considered today. As it is already happening in another place, why should it not happen here in our own?