Lords Spiritual (Women) Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 12th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, should declare an interest as a vice-president of WATCH—Women and the Church—which has campaigned for women clergy and bishops for more years than most of us care to remember.

I, too, congratulate the Government on bringing this Bill to the House so quickly after we debated the Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure in October last year. During that debate, as we have already heard from him, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury—the right honourable Justin Welby—assured us that the swift promotion of women to this House was a matter close to his heart. He has clearly shown us that. Even better, the Government have fully supported him, and one gathers through the usual channels that so do all sides of the House.

I gather that some in the church and the press—and even, it would appear, in this House—are concerned that the pressures on a new woman diocesan bishop in managing the role of being a bishop and Member of the House of Lords would be too great. I should have thought that the vast majority of your Lordships are in no doubt at all that the talented and long-serving senior women in the church are more than capable of undertaking those roles. They have long faced scrutiny, criticism and worse, and will no doubt be well prepared by those experiences for their duties in both their diocese and in Parliament.

I particularly congratulate the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York—the right honourable Dr John Sentamu—on the wonderful service of consecration of the new Bishop of Stockport, the right reverend Libby Lane, on 26 January in York Minster. Many of us watched the service, although most of us may have done so from a distance. It was an overwhelmingly joyful occasion in which both the archbishops and virtually all the bishops of the Church of England laid on hands, as well as a large number of retired bishops, along with visiting women bishops from the Anglican Communion overseas and from the Porvoo and Meissen churches. The number of bishops present must have exceeded 150—almost as many as we have here with us today.

Given the great pleasure of seeing the first female bishop consecrated in the Church of England recently, it was sad that within a week the underlying divisions within the Church of England had begun to emerge once again. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester will remember that in October last year I asked the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury in this House whether archbishops would continue to consecrate all bishops in their respective provinces. From his response and further debate in the other place I understood,

“that in the normal course of events, archbishops will consecrate all bishops, but … there will be circumstances when an archbishop is ill or overseas”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/10/14; col. 724.]

Then, he might delegate.

Yet only one week after the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York had consecrated the first female bishop through the laying on of hands, he chose not to put his hands on the new Bishop of Burnley, although he was present at the time. He invited, as noble Lords will know, other bishops who were “acceptable” to the new bishop to lay on hands in his place. There were only three such bishops. Thus, the contrast between the two services in that sense could not have been greater.

This is still an important matter. Indeed, the issue of whether archbishops would consecrate all bishops in their provinces was a key issue for the General Synod when it considered the legislation on women bishops. It was not able to agree on that, or even to reach a compromise. The archbishops then issued a statement that they would take each consecration on a case-by-case basis. Put simply, there are those in the Church of England who hold that once a bishop has laid hands on a female priest in ordination or on a female bishop in consecration he is no longer acceptable to consecrate members of the self-styled “traditional Catholic” wing of the church. This is a notion of “taint”, however it is described by those who propose it.

We should not forget that it has been a source of anguish among all women in the church since alternative arrangements were introduced for ordination under the Act of Synod 1993. The risk in all this is that, far from achieving the “highest degree of communion” between those who accept and those who do not accept the priestly or episcopal orders of women, the church may find that it has created two quite separate genealogies. There is a further risk that the precedent set in York Minster may become the new normal when consecrating traditional Catholic bishops.

Finally, in this context, I hope that as I am lucky enough to be speaking just before the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, he could give us his views on what level of confidence women and their supporters can expect in relation to the first primate who is a woman—in particular, whether she will truly be free to take each consecration on its particular merits in the way in which the archbishop and the Second Estates Commissioner described last October. Or might her discretion, in effect, be fettered by precedent? If the archbishops are willing to refrain from consecrating traditional Catholic bishops, might they not be creating a reasonable expectation on the part of the traditional Catholic wing that this practice will continue? I hope that if he has time, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester will be able to reassure me on these points.

In conclusion, I pay tribute and give particular credit to the nearly 8,000 women priests up and down this country who serve their parishes and communities brilliantly and will no doubt take inspiration from finally seeing female bishops take their place in your Lordships’ House. May we wholeheartedly support the Bill to enable this day to come soon.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 122A and 139. Amendment 122A and government Amendment 139 both aim to address the problem of what happens to the anonymity granted to children in court proceedings when these children turn 18. This is obviously a pressing issue thanks to the case of JC & RT, as we have already heard, in which Lord Justice Leveson ruled that Section 39 reporting restrictions expire when a child reaches 18. I gather that that case is subject to appeal.

The government amendment seeks to create a new lifelong anonymity order, but this cannot be granted to defendants: so these new orders allow a court to provide child victims and witnesses with anonymity post-18, but not child defendants. As far as I am aware, this means that the only way for a child defendant to be granted post-18 anonymity would be for them to seek a civil injunction. Unless they have such an injunction, the press, or individuals on social media, will automatically have the right to identify any child defendant as soon as they reach 18.

I understand that the Government’s position is that they do not want all child defendants automatically to be granted post-18 anonymity, but will there not be some cases in which the court should have the ability to impose lasting reporting restrictions? What about cases where a child is found not guilty of an offence? What about cases where vigilantism is a real possibility? Amendment 122A would allow defendants to be subject to the new lifelong anonymity orders and would provide courts with the means to impose restrictions if they choose. This may be the most sensible way forward.

Under Amendment 139, child victims and witnesses will have to show that their evidence or co-operation would be diminished if they were to be granted post-18 anonymity. Under the current law, victims and witnesses do not have to meet any tests to be granted the same anonymity. Like my noble friend Lord Listowel, I am concerned that this test may deter victims and witnesses. I am also concerned about what will happen when proceedings have already concluded and the child victim or witness has now reached 18 years of age. Presumably, anyone over the age of 18 who has ever been a child victim or witness and who does not want to be identified will have to go back to court and apply for one of the new orders that the Government propose. Surely it is unlikely that most people will know that they can do this. Even if they did, would legal aid be available to assist them?

This is a serious issue if victims and witnesses in historic cases start to be named in the press without their prior knowledge. This is likely to deter potential victims and witnesses from coming forward, as well as being potentially harmful to those identified. Like my noble friend Lord Listowel, I hope that the Government will take these concerns into consideration and, in particular, come back with a rather more acceptable amendment at Third Reading.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a rather intimidating debate so far, in the sense that I notice that two of the three noble Lords who have spoken did so from their tablets. To the public mind, tablets in your Lordships’ House are probably seen to be what most of us take at some point during the day. Anybody who thinks that we are not a modern House should take account of what has just happened.

I support the speeches of all three noble Lords—in particular, that of the noble Earl, who opened cogently the debate on the amendment, which also has my name upon it. I am concerned that there should be a discretion vested in the court to allow anonymity for defendants. One could think of hundreds of examples where this would be just. I shall give the House one, which involves a situation in which parents have been instrumental in the child committing a crime. It may be the father who is a thief and has given the child the stolen goods to look after; or it may be a mother who is involved in some other offence in which she relies upon her child to protect her and, for example, warn her if the police are appearing.

For any of your Lordships are devotees of film noir, in a recent episode of that splendid drama, “The Bridge”, an animal rights terrorist involved his brother in a terrorist act and the brother undoubtedly committed criminal offences—we will have to wait and see whether he is prosecuted in the next episode—for his brother’s protection. It is self-evident that there will be cases such as the more real examples that I mentioned earlier, in which there should be a discretion in the court to protect the child from being named.

We are not saying in this amendment that it should happen. We are saying that surely it could happen. I hope that the Minister will tell me that I am wrong— I would be delighted if he did—and say that powers either exist or will shortly exist that will leave this discretion within the criminal court. There are, as the noble Earl said, civil powers that could be used, but these are complex and difficult to access, and we have the problem that legal aid is not necessarily available for such cases. We therefore need to ensure that children who have committed crime and may be only marginally to blame for their involvement have this protection.

We know that historically there are some cases of great notoriety in which, after the child’s release from custody, lifelong anonymity has been granted. It would be right to at least give the criminal court the power to grant such anonymity for a period, so that the notoriety of the child is protected, even if the merits indicate that this matter should be dealt with by a civil court at a much later stage.

I agree also with the noble Earl’s comments in relation to victims and witnesses. Child witnesses are often very intimidated by the prospect of giving evidence. They know that they are going to be cross-examined and face what may be an unpleasant experience. They will be told that the experience is sometimes well controlled, which is true—but unfortunately it is far from always well controlled. If we are to value the need to obtain child witnesses, particularly in abuse cases and matters of that kind, we should have stronger provision than is contained in the Bill. With those views, I support the amendment and the amendment spoken to by my noble friend Lord Marks, and hope that the Government will say that they would like to take another look at these provisions.

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Moved by

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

144: After Clause 69, insert the following new Clause—
“Giving evidence at remote sites
In the Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999, after section 30 (aids to communcation) insert—“30A Giving evidence at remote sites
(1) A special measures direction may provide for persons eligible for assistance under section 16 (witness eligible for assistance on grounds of age or incapacity) to give evidence at a remote site.
(2) For the purposes of this section, any facility may be designated as a remote site where the court is satisfied that all of the following criteria have been met—
(a) the facility must be suitable for hearing evidence;(b) the facility must be absent from the court building;(c) the location of the facility must be appropriate to meet the needs and promote the welfare of the witness; and(d) the arrangement must not prevent the witness from being able to see, and to be seen by—(i) the judge or justices (or both) and the jury (if there is one);(ii) legal representatives acting in the proceedings; and(iii) any interpreter or other person appointed (in pursuance of the direction or otherwise) to assist the witness.””

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 144 and 145 together, as they both concern the use and availability of special measures for child victims and witnesses during a criminal trial. The amendments relate specifically to remote live link sites, which allow children to give their evidence away from a court building and with registered intermediaries —communication professionals who help children communicate with the police, legal representatives and the court.

These new clauses are supported by the NSPCC, Barnardo’s and Victim Support. I am sure that noble Lords will agree with me that never before has such a stark spotlight been shone on child abuse, with increasing numbers of victims coming forward and arrests made. It is clearly important that we should be doing everything in our power to support child victims and witnesses to give their best evidence and minimise the trauma of their court experience. NSPCC research found that more than half of young witnesses experienced stress symptoms ranging from sleeping and eating problems, to depression, bed-wetting and self-harming. A child’s evidence can be crucial in deciding the outcome of a case. Where this involves sexual abuse, they are often the only witnesses. However, the current special measures designed to support children in these circumstances are being used too inconsistently.

The purpose of these new clauses is to highlight the urgent need to increase their use and availability. The new clause proposed in Amendment 144 requires the availability of a remote videolink site away from court for all young witnesses. I share the view of the NSPCC that a criminal court is not an appropriate place for a child and that no child should give evidence in a court building unless they expressly wish to do so. The hostility, unfamiliarity and alien nature of the court and the proximity of the defendants and their supporters all serve to make a child’s experience far more traumatic. This can increase the likelihood of a child failing to give their best evidence and justice not being served. Indeed, in some cases children are so upset by their time in court that they are unable to give their evidence at all.

It is now 25 years since the landmark Pigot report recommended that children should give evidence in surroundings and circumstances that do not intimidate or overawe them, and yet a recent FOI request by the NSPCC showed that there are currently only a handful of remote sites across England and Wales where children can give evidence by videolink away from court. Judge Pigot’s recommendations were made in 1989, well before the dawn of the digital age. It does not seem right that in 2014, when people are able to make video calls to the other side of the world in a matter of seconds and prisoners routinely give evidence from their cells, that still only 1% of children have the option of giving evidence away from a court building. Establishing a remote link is not prohibitively complex and can cost as little as £10,000 to £12,000.

I welcome the Government’s recent commitment to ensuring that there is one remote site in each court region by March 2015. That is a welcome step in the right direction but there are only six court regions across England and Wales. This commitment is nowhere near the level of ambition we should expect for our most vulnerable victims. My amendment would ensure that remote sites are available to all children who require one. I would welcome clarity on the Government’s commitment to remote sites beyond establishing one in each court region.

In their recent package of measures for victims, the Government announced the rollout of pre-recorded evidence. This will undoubtedly make a huge difference to vulnerable children, reducing the delay and trauma involved in giving evidence during a live trial, but will the Minister give his assurance that children will be able to pre-record their evidence at a location away from a court building? I see no reason why remote sites should not be routinely used for this purpose, but this will require a concerted effort to increase their number.

The new clause proposed in Amendment 145 requires the availability of registered intermediaries for all children under 11 years of age—another valuable special measure which child witnesses are eligible for but which is used far too infrequently. Even bright, normally developing children find court communication methods and language challenging simply because of their age. Research has shown that 90% of children under the age of 10 reported being unable to understand the questions they were asked in court.

An intermediary is an officer of the court who facilitates communication between vulnerable witnesses and the criminal justice system. Unfortunately, just 3.8% of young witnesses in England and Wales have access to a registered intermediary to help them understand what is happening during a trial. This stems from a stark shortage in numbers and a low awareness of the benefits of the service within the criminal justice system. Judges widely agree that RIs provide enormous value to the handling of cases involving young witnesses. Yet, astonishingly, there are fewer than 75 in England and Wales to support the 21,000 children giving evidence each year. Even after accounting for a recent recruitment drive by the Ministry of Justice, we are still a very long way from a sustainable service which addresses the level of need.

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[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the attention that he has given to both the amendments. I also thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for what he said.

It is encouraging to hear that the Government are doing their best to increase the number of registered intermediaries, but one would need to know a little more about just how fast it is likely to happen. Obviously, I will read carefully what has been said by everyone in this debate. For the moment, I will withdraw my amendment, but it is possible that we will be back with another comment at a later stage.

Amendment 144 withdrawn.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, earlier today I spent some time with an academic who left a young offender institution at the age of 15 without any qualifications. He has some sympathy with what the Government are proposing. As my noble friend said, the impulse to put education at the heart of meeting the needs of these young people is absolutely right. My difficulty, I am afraid to say, is that there is so little detail in what the Minister is proposing that I can see many very poor outcomes arising from it. As parliamentarians, we need to know more about what is going to be delivered to these young people.

I visited the Orchard Lodge unit that my noble friend described and, like him, I was most impressed by the high quality of multidisciplinary services that these young people receive. There may be lessons to be learnt from the research into the educational outcomes of looked-after children. I think that Professor Sonia Jackson was the academic who first drew attention to the disparity in educational outcomes between looked-after children and the general population of children at the end of the 1990s. This is relevant because many among the population in the secure estate have come from local authority care. She wrote to me recently, updating her research and looking again at the continent. She found that the United Kingdom has the best statutory framework for looked-after children and care leavers that we know of. That is a great endorsement of what this Government and the previous Government have done in terms of the legislative framework around these vulnerable young people. However, she also found that we have poorer educational outcomes than many countries on the continent. She ascribed this to the fact that we have such low expectations in terms of the educational qualifications of those who work near these young people.

As I mentioned earlier, in Denmark 90% of staff in children’s homes have a degree-level qualification and in Germany 50%. However, only 30% do in this country. As an authority was telling me recently, less than half of the managers of children’s homes have a degree-level qualification. If we are looking carefully at the policy to improve educational outcomes for our troubling, and often very troubled, children, we must take on board what my noble friend has said and his example from Missouri, where units are staffed by people with degree-level qualifications. I am reminded of the very interesting fact that the principal indicator for a good educational outcome for any young person is the level of qualification of their parents. If a parent has a degree, it is likely that their child will get a degree. It seems to make sense to look at the level of qualifications of people who work near these young people and to ensure that, as far as possible, they are well educated, so that those young people are likely to do far better in their own education.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, for the first time I have some hope that there may be an answer to the problem of that part of the Bill that has troubled everyone on all sides of the House, and which will never work in practice no matter how well intentioned it may be. We have now had from my noble friend a very clear outline of the sort of institution that would make sense.

As we all know, so many of the children who end up in this position not only have had appalling backgrounds but often have had no education at all. One of the first things needed is a basic test of the extent to which they are able to read or write. I hope that the Minister will take this issue away and be persuaded that his proposals are absolutely no good and will not have the support—let alone the extra cost that they would involve. They would provide a solution that would be totally unsatisfactory.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to support the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. In his introduction, he gave a very comprehensive analysis of the secure college proposals and came up with positive alternatives, which he has every reason to believe would be more favourable than the secure colleges model.

I want to concentrate on one particular aspect that, as far as I know, no other noble Lords have looked at, and that is the costs involved. As I understand it, an adult male prison place costs about £40,000 a year; a place in a male young offender institute costs about £80,000 a year; a secure training centre place costs about £140,000 a year; and a place in a secure children’s home costs about £210,000 a year. Not surprisingly, those costs are completely dominated by the staffing ratios, which are what control the costs of running prisons. When I put the issue to the former Minister, Jeremy Wright, regarding the proposed staffing levels for the secure colleges, his answer was that that would be a matter for the company that was bidding for the contracts. However, this is fundamental to the cost and the quality of the education provision for young people in custody.

Why are the Government so reticent in talking about what they hope to be the running costs of these institutions when they are up and running? Like all noble Lords, I have had many briefings on this matter, and there was reference to a cost of £60,000 a year per boy in a secure college. I have not found any further reference to that and I do not know whether the figure is right, but the House would be better informed if we knew exactly what the Government aspire to in reducing the per-year costs of having boys in these secure colleges. The Government should not be reticent; there is nothing wrong with trying to save costs, but the Committee would be much better informed if it knew what cost they aspire to.

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[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Listowel. Article 1, as he said, of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines a child as a person under the age of 18. In 2010 the Government made a commitment to have regard to children’s rights when developing law and policy affecting children. In the majority of the youth justice system, 17 year-olds are rightly treated as children and so are entitled to the same protection as all other children. The police station is the only part of the criminal justice system where 17 year-olds are not—uniformly, at any rate—recognised as children.

At present, one other anomaly remains: 17 year-olds are still not entitled to the protection afforded to other children when they are cautioned. However, I think we all welcome the fact that Clause 32 rectifies that. Of particular concern is the fact that if they are detained by the police, 17 year-olds are not entitled to a local authority bed—my noble friend made the point firmly that they must still be detained in police custody.

Police custody is an intimidating and frightening environment that is unsuitable for children, particularly the sort of children who are as damaged as those who are likely to be in that situation. We have heard about the tragic consequences that can result, and I offer my condolences to the family of Kesia Leatherbarrow, the 17 year-old who was found dead following detention in police custody. By contrast, local authority accommodation has trained staff. As my noble friend Lord Listowel has mentioned on many occasions, trained staff are important in such situations. They are more supportive and far more appropriate.

I cannot see the rationale for denying 17 year-olds access to local authority beds. It is clearly desirable and is in keeping with the UNCRC. The Government are still making progress in other areas to ensure that 17 year-olds are treated as children in the youth justice system—for instance, under Clause 32. I urge them to do the same with regard to the provision of local authority beds, and to accept the amendment.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, the Committee is indebted to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and to other noble Lords who have spoken in the debate, for raising a matter of concern and for pointing out the inconsistency that now applies, particularly in regard to the welcome change that the Bill incorporates, and to which other noble Lords have referred, about having an appropriate adult present when a 17 year-old is being charged or interviewed.

Noble Lords have spoken in moving terms about the problems faced by vulnerable young people in the circumstances that the amendment addresses. Clearly, from their point of view, it would be highly desirable for a different sort of accommodation to be made available. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who has not participated in the debate, might agree that it is better from the police’s point of view if they do not have responsibility in an area where, as the noble Baroness has just pointed out, they do not have the expertise to look after vulnerable young people who might be capable of inflicting harm upon themselves in a difficult and unusual situation.

Both sides of the equation, as it were, argue for a change and a degree of consistency across the legislative framework. It would, however, be desirable, if it has not yet been undertaken, to consult with the Local Government Association representing local authorities in England and Wales to ensure that the local authorities have an awareness that this will, necessarily, impinge to some degree upon their responsibilities, and for an adjustment to be made in the financing that would no doubt be required to provide a safe, temporary haven for these young people before they make their court appearance. If the Minister is unable to give an unequivocal response today, I join others in hoping that, between now and Report, matters might be progressed.

This may be seen primarily as a matter for the Home Office but it is clearly of interest for the Ministry of Justice and I hope that the two departments between them—possibly with, as I said, the involvement of the Department for Communities and Local Government and maybe even the Department for Education, which has a potential interest in respect of children’s services—might come to a fairly rapid conclusion about what is not an inherently complex matter in a way that would satisfy the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and, more particularly, those who have undergone a traumatic experience with their own children and do not wish to see that repeated in respect of other 17 year-olds and their families.

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[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, I also support the noble Lord, Lord Low, and other noble Lords on Amendment 55A, which will help meet the needs of a vulnerable group of people. As we have heard, they are children and adults dependent on someone who is sent to prison. This amendment is supported by the Families Left Behind campaign, which includes a number of organisations that offer support to the children and families of offenders through direct provision of services, advocacy and research. One such organisation is the children’s charity Barnardo’s, and I declare an interest as one of its vice-presidents.

In an Oral Question last year, I asked the Government to give consideration to this issue by putting measures in place to protect vulnerable children. Barnardo’s has found that children of prisoners are a highly vulnerable group who are twice as likely to experience depression and problems with mental health, alcohol and drug abuse. They are more likely to live in poverty and poor accommodation or to be part of the care system. We have recently been hearing about how many children and young people have been abused while in care—something which destroyed their lives for ever and imprisoned them. Sadly, many of these young people go on to offend and are disproportionately represented among young offenders. These children suffer through no fault of their own.

The reasons for parental imprisonment often relate to family problems, including domestic violence or drug and alcohol abuse. This is not a perfect environment for any child to be brought up in. It can seem to them that the whole world is against them. Despite all this, there is currently no requirement to identify any child or dependent adult that an individual remanded or sentenced to prison may be leaving behind. Believe it or not, there is not even the slightest check on arrangements for their safety, care or well-being. Therefore, these children—as we have heard, there are around 200,000 of them—are unlikely to be offered any targeted support because often there is no record of them and no requirement to identify them. Disturbingly, they are not known to children’s services.

This is why Barnardo’s and the Families Left Behind campaign call for the introduction of a statutory duty on courts to ask whether an individual has dependants when they are sentenced or held on remand, in order that it can be confirmed that appropriate care arrangements are in place. This will not impact on courts’ resources or create any additional work. It will just be a case of asking two simple questions. Barnardo’s has found that defendants will not necessarily volunteer this information without being asked.

Therefore, I ask the Minister whether the Government will create a statutory duty on courts to identify defendants who have children dependent on them. By collecting this data, we will be better placed to detect vulnerable children with a parent in prison and ensure that these children get the support they need. Like the Families Left Behind campaign, I believe that Amendment 55A will ensure that children and adults are better protected when their loved ones are in prison.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I, too, have had correspondence from those very concerned about this issue. I do not intend to take up your Lordships’ time by going further into this whole matter, but in as far as this is not already in place it clearly needs to be, and the sooner it is put into effect the better. I am still rather surprised that it does not exist automatically as a natural procedure in court.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede]

My Lords, first, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Low, for not being in the Chamber for the whole of his contribution. I wish to make a couple of points. The first is that this is good practice within magistrates’ courts at the moment. Certainly, every court I have sat in has made these inquiries. Nevertheless, I take the point that it may not be universal practice and it may not be a statutory requirement.

Secondly, I wanted to pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blair, about informing the schools and so on. It seems to me that this amendment does not go that far; all it does is allow the defendant to make a telephone call. Some of the defendants I see in front of me would make a telephone call, but one might not have confidence in the telephone call that they made. Therefore, I think there needs to be a more active inquiry by, for example, social services or the probation service about the possibility of dependants at home. Nevertheless, I agree with the objectives of the amendment. I look forward to the Minister’s response about the practicalities and also whether the amendment goes far enough.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

This is not so very different from what we already do with online gambling websites where age verification and licensing are the key and where the Government took a strong line to protect children and young people with a very high degree of success. I hope the Minister will recognise that these amendments seek to put a similar regime in place. I beg to move.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I was pleased to add my name to Amendments 42A to 42D tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her comments earlier. As noble Lords will know, I have been concerned about content on the internet for some time and have tabled amendments to previous Bills on age verification for certain websites. I also have the Online Safety Bill which is currently before your Lordships’ House. I extended my Bill in this Session specifically to deal with some of the concerns which have been raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, so I am grateful to be able to discuss these important issues today.

As a result of the Audiovisual Media Services Directive 2009, the Authority for Television on Demand has regulatory powers over “TV-like” on-demand programmes that include those which provide explicit pornographic content. ATVOD is already taking welcome action to address services that are based within the EU and has set out in its annual report, which was published last week, how in the year to 31 March 2014 it took action against 16 services operating across 20 websites because these services featured hardcore pornography that could be accessed by under 18 year-olds.

However, there are two current concerns. ATVOD already assumes that these regulations apply to R18 video works—that is, hardcore pornography that can be legally supplied only by a licensed sex shop in offline form—but has argued that it is not clear and that it could be subject to legal challenge. In 2013, the Government said that they would legislate to ensure that material that would be rated R18 by the BBFC is “put behind access controls” and would,

“ban outright content on regulated services that is illegal even in licensed sex shops”.

I understand that in April the Government announced that they would implement this policy before the end of the year. This is welcome news in relation to EU services, and I would be grateful if the Minister could give us an update on progress on implementing this commitment.

The second issue, which is the one that these amendments aim to address, is that ATVOD is concerned that young people are accessing hardcore pornography rated R18 and stronger through tube sites that tend to operate outside the EU and which will not be affected by the change I have outlined above as they fall outside ATVOD’s jurisdiction. As noble Lords have heard, in March 2014, ATVOD issued a report entitled For Adults Only? Underage access to online porn. The report contains shocking statistics on access to pornographic websites that are outside its control because they are based overseas.

Noble Lords have been given quite a few of the relevant statistics by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that I was going to read out, such as the fact that one in 20 UK visitors to an adult website during a period of one month, December 2013, were under age, and that 23 of the top 25 adult websites visited by UK internet users provide instant, free and unrestricted access to hardcore pornographic videos and still images. Moreover, none of the eight most visited adult sites has in place a robust mechanism to prevent underage access and all offer on the home page free access to hardcore porn videos which are equivalent to those passed as R18 by the BBFC, or indeed are even stronger. I must repeat one statistic because it really is so horrendous. Only one of the 1,266 adult websites identified in the ATVOD research as having been visited from the UK in December 2013 was a service that is regulated in this country.

I am sure that noble Lords will agree with me and with the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, who has put the case so clearly and splendidly, that this is really unacceptable and that the time has come to address these issues. As a result of its research, ATVOD has made a series of recommendations, one of which is to establish a licensing scheme for foreign pornography websites based outside the EU which are being accessed in the UK. A condition of the licence should be that hardcore pornography can be provided only,

“in a manner which secured that under 18s could not normally access the material”.

Amendments 42A to 42D would set up such a licensing system. I hope that the Committee will support these amendments and that the Minister will confirm that that will be the case. I should also like to hear his views on ATVOD’s proposal that the blocking of payments to services could be implemented if a service is unlicensed or a licensed service breaches the licence conditions.

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[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, experienced practitioners in residential settings, particularly local authority secure children’s homes, always tell me that the key to behaviour management and to avoiding escalation into using force is building relationships with the staff.

I was grateful for the Minister’s careful and considered response to earlier concerns. However, I go back to the staffing because in this country there seems to be such an underestimation of the level of qualification, understanding and support and development that staff need to work with vulnerable children, certainly those in our children’s homes, which I frequently visit. Ninety per cent of staff in children’s homes in Denmark have a degree-level qualification. In Germany, the figure is 50%, whereas in this country it is 30%. That was the situation about five years ago. Yet in Denmark and Germany half of children in care are kept in residential settings, so they have a far lower level of complex needs. We have far less qualified staff working with more vulnerable children. I am afraid that is a common experience across our children’s services in this country. We underestimate the skill involved in working with children who have been deeply damaged and the need to have really well qualified, reflective practitioners.

I visited Rainsbrook Secure Training Centre shortly after the death of Gareth Myatt while he had been restrained. My sense from that visit was that there was great regret but that it was okay: procedure had been followed. That generally sums up the culture in this country. We train staff up to be competent and follow procedure. In certain circumstances that is exactly right. What those on the continent have done is to recruit and select people who can think and who are deeply reflective, and who are trained to understand child development. They work hand in hand with mental health professionals to reflect on their relationships with young people and get the best from them.

If the Minister is successful in getting contracts for qualified staff who understand child development and, because they do that, work with mental health professionals to reflect constantly on their relationships with young people, we will be able to avoid the use of force as far as possible. In a large institution, however, it may be more problematic. There have been 16 deaths of children in custody since 2000; all of those have been in the larger institutions, the YOIs and the STCs, and not one in a local authority secure unit. Obviously they have had more children go through them, and that is important to bear in mind. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I shall share just a brief word, because I was unaware that we were going to be dealing with this clause. If we had been told that there are already minimum rules for restraint in existence, and bearing in mind strongly what has been said about the damage that would almost certainly have been done to these children over a number of years, as the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, stressed, then I think that it would be a really dangerous scenario to assume that what was described as two pain infliction methods would be the expected way of dealing with severely damaged children. They would be likely to be far more dangerously infected with these sorts of policies going into adulthood.

I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us that an extremely careful look will be taken at whatever forms of restraint are to be used. The point made about properly trained staff, who know what they are doing, is crucial too.

[Baroness Linklater of Butterstone]

My Lords, the Joint Committee on Human Rights has found,

“that it is incompatible with Articles 3 and 8 ECHR for any law, whether primary or secondary legislation, to authorise the use of force on children and young people for the purposes of … discipline … we recommend that the relevant provision in Schedule 4 of the Bill should be deleted, and the Bill should be amended to make explicit that secure college rules can only authorise the use of reasonable force on children as a last resort; only for the purposes of preventing harm to the child or others; and that only the minimum force necessary should be used”.

The children and young people who are in custody are the most needy and difficult in the system, as we have already agreed, and present many and ongoing challenges. That is why it is so important that force is never, or extremely rarely, used. It is also why the experience and training of staff is paramount. I have seen expert, careful and skilled staff manage a potentially explosive situation and ensure that calm prevailed without any need to use force. It was most impressive.

Force tends only to provoke force and exacerbate situations in a distressing way. It also legitimises the use of force by staff and sends out the very same message to the young people, which, of course, is precisely the opposite of what is needed. That is why it is so important that we have much more detail on what the training, skills and experience of the staff who are likely to be employed in the secure college will be. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us an explanation and reassurance that special attention is going to be paid to this issue. An establishment of the scale planned by the Government is likely to create the most challenging environment that anybody working in this field will ever have had to deal with.

It appears that MoJ officials are planning to outline their expectation of when force can be used, but we urge that primary legislation remains the proper place to ensure proper safeguards. However, I understand that it is highly likely that the passage of this Bill will be completed before the final version of the rules is published, thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny. I hope the Minister can give some clarity on this.

Criminal Justice and Courts Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for her amendments to Clause 28, because it is clearly very important we get this right. In particular, I support the principle of Amendment 36C, which clarifies that the images can be “real or simulated”. I know the Government have amended the Explanatory Notes to clarify this point, but it seems to me that what is in the statute will be the key issue when the case is before the courts. With the increasing use of computer-generated images, surely it is right for us to clarify that these images are covered. The importance of such clarification is made in relation to children in the Protection of Children Act 1978 with the definition of “pseudo-photographs”. Why should a similar clarification of “real or simulated” not be made here when we are dealing with extreme pornographic images?

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for explaining to the Committee the details of the meeting that a number of us attended last week. It was one of the most horrible meetings I have ever had to attend, but it was extremely informative. It showed the way the BBFC very diligently performs its role and achieves what most people in Britain want to see: it enables adults to view as much as they could possibly wish to—provided that it does not harm anybody else—but it is quite clear in the classification of materials and tries to limit those materials to which it would be preferable that there was no access.

The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, is absolutely right—she has much more experience of dealing with these matters than many of the rest of us. The key factor we kept coming back to was whether something was real or realistic or could be assumed to be real for a number of reasons. We were shown a particularly horrible image that was a cartoon. There was no way that anybody could view it and consider it to be real, but what it showed was truly gruesome. In the end the BBFC had not classified it.

The Minister may say there are different elements in these amendments that are technically deficient. However, I hope that he might be able to accept some of the points being made. This is a work in progress. The way the internet is taking over this form of very adult entertainment is still unfolding; the law is clearly currently way behind the producers of it and needs to be changed. This may not be the definitive answer, but the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has put forward some very helpful suggestions.

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[Baroness Grender (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise for having been unable to attend Second Reading. I will speak in particular in favour of Amendments 37, 38 and 39. To hear people talk about revenge porn, you would think it had only just been invented, but the divorce in 1963 of the Duke and Duchess of Argyll involving the infamous image of a headless man tells a different story. The dramatic difference is that of course today we have the ability to reproduce a picture a thousand times without the permission of the individual concerned. I will focus on one aspect of this, which is the motive to hurt or humiliate the individual.

I do not believe that on the whole the motivation is sexual gratification, as outlined in Amendment 40. Perhaps I may put before the Committee three case studies that will help to illustrate this. The first is of a lady who was with her partner for two years. They planned to buy a home together so it was a trusting relationship, but after it broke down, her ex published photos of her and labelled her as a “whore” and a “slut”. He even set up an identity pretending to be her and invited humiliation and insults. When she went to the police they were unable to help, and the website refused to remove the images, in spite of regular requests.

The second example is that of a woman whose images were posted on a website called myex.com. The images spiralled from website to website gathering views, comments, abuse and humiliation. While some porn sites actually responded to the woman’s specific requests to remove the images, myex.com did not. She currently remains terrified of family and work colleagues seeing the images. We need to be conscious of the fact that men can also be victims, although most are women. I cite the case of a 29 year-old man who exchanged images having been sent fake images by his girlfriend. His ex has shared them, particularly with his work colleagues.

These cases are ones that involve not naïve teenagers—although obviously I believe that they should be protected as well—but people who have been in trusting relationships where the trust has broken down. What has been done is something that we should clearly define as a crime. These people are our sisters, brothers, daughters and sons, and what they need is protection against these vile acts that are committed without their consent. The inflicting of pain and humiliation is the only motive, and the individual who publishes such images should know that when they do it, they are committing a crime. I hope that the Minister will reflect that when he considers a possible amendment to the Bill.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I support the principles behind Amendments 37 and 40. The internet, as we all know, is a fantastic resource, but it can also be a source of harm to children and, in this case, to adults. Noble Lords were clearly grateful for the very positive spirit with which the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, agreed to consider suggestions for tackling revenge pornography when the issue was raised at Second Reading, and I hope very much that he will continue to work with the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, and other noble Lords who are interested in these amendments. We must make sure that a robust solution is found to this increasingly worrying problem.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Friday 18th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, it has been an amazing day so far. I think that we are about three-quarters of the way through. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, I have had amazing numbers of letters. I have the solid bunch of them all here with me and every single one of them is against the Bill. It is only fair to put that into the balance.

The last time that the House was asked to consider a Bill to legalise what is being called “assisted dying” was shortly after I joined it. The first thing that I did when I saw the Bill tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, was to look back at the Bill that the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, presented to the House eight years ago. The thing that struck me immediately was the title. The noble Lord, Lord Joffe, presented the Assisted Dying for the Terminally Ill Bill, but this Bill is the Assisted Dying Bill. Is that just an attempt at brevity or is it significant? The noble and learned Lord is insistent that his Bill would not offer assistance with suicide to anyone who was not terminally ill, but I cannot help thinking that, if I were presenting such a Bill and I had in mind that it might subsequently be extended, I might well think that it ought to have the more general title of Assisted Dying Bill rather than the narrow one that the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, used eight years ago. But maybe I am being overly suspicious.

Moving on from the title, I noted that the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, set out a procedure for a doctor who supplied lethal drugs to a patient to report doing so. It also contained provisions for a monitoring commission to examine these reports to ensure that the law had been complied with. Yet when I turned to the Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, I saw none of this. There is no requirement for a doctor to report, nor is there an arrangement for ensuring that the terms of the law have been observed. The Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Joffe, contained a requirement, in line with the Oregon assisted-suicide law, that a doctor who had any doubts about the mental health of a person seeking assisted suicide must refer that patient for specialist examination. Once again, there is nothing like that in the Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer.

I raise these issues because those who argue for a law of this nature are insistent about what they call upfront safeguards, but there is nothing upfront or indeed safeguarding here. All that the Bill contains are broad and general statements of whom it is meant to apply to. These are not safeguards. It is not enough to say that having two doctors agreeing on a request is a safeguard. This is quite literally a life-or-death Bill and we need to be able to assess whether it is safe to unleash it on the public.

We are told that all this will be settled later by others and that we should focus on the principles of the Bill. Surely, though, safeguarding the public is itself a central principle of all legislation. To give the green light to a Bill with such far-reaching consequences for the safety of vulnerable people simply on the basis that it sounds fine in principle, without being given even a hint of how those people might be protected, would be nothing short of a dereliction of our duty as legislators.

Social Welfare Law

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Peterborough on his excellent and moving maiden speech.

Like all noble Lords who have spoken so far, I welcome this comprehensive and insightful report which the commission led by my noble friend Lord Low has published. It could not have had a better or more insightful chairman.

Reductions in legal aid and other funding for advice and legal support are having a serious impact on the ability of poor and vulnerable people to access justice. It is this theme on which I wish to concentrate in my contribution to this debate today. The Low commission report highlights the plight of a number of members of the public hit by the loss of legal aid to assist them. They face the kind of everyday legal problems which loss of a job, disability or other crises can throw at them. Examples given in the report include a young couple who were unable to get their landlord to undertake essential repairs; a person in debt who started suffering from severe anxiety and depression and is in danger of losing their house and job; and a disabled person who lost their benefits after being wrongly assessed as fit for work.

In the Government’s latest equality impact assessment, published after the changes to legal aid were introduced last year, a disturbing picture is painted of how these changes will impact on people who are protected by equalities legislation. Around 19% of the general population can be classified as disabled, but 54% of the people who sought advice under the legal aid scheme for benefit problems were classed as disabled. All but a small number of benefit appeal cases were cut from the scope of legal aid. This will mean many of thousands of disabled people going without the legal help they need. In housing cases no longer covered by legal aid, 61% of the clients are women. Organisations opposed to the changes in legal aid, such as the housing charity Shelter, point out that higher numbers of women seek housing advice as they are often left on their own to provide for children or have been forced to move from the family home because of violence or other abuse. Disabled people are also much more likely to face problems with disrepair due to poor housing conditions. Disrepair cases are often small in value and therefore not suitable for no-win no-fee arrangements. However, if they go unresolved, this can have severe consequences for family health.

Black, Asian and minority ethnic communities are more likely to face all of the social welfare problems with which the Low commission report deals. Some 86% of immigration problems previously covered by legal aid involve people from BAME communities. Often they face problems such as proving their status to claim state benefits such as their pension after a lifetime of working legally in the UK—an issue which will be publicised by a report soon to be published by the Legal Action Group. As the former vice-chairman of the Equal Opportunities Commission, the discriminatory impact of the changes to legal aid on people protected by equalities legislation is of particular concern to me.

Aside from these concerns over equality, there are practical considerations. When people get into difficulty in their daily lives, they need to be able to get the right information and advice as early as possible. If this information and advice is no longer available, they could become unemployed, homeless and/or in debt. Then not only will they suffer distress but the state will incur increased costs. Where legal support—whether in the form of legal help or legal representation—is also not available, the number of people who will then try to represent themselves will increase and the courts and tribunals will have to adapt to deal with this increase in unadvised and unrepresented litigants.

Likewise, when systems that are supposed to support people fail to function effectively, those individuals require extensive help, often including specialist and legal skills, to have their needs met. In its paper, Towards a Business Case for Legal Aid, Citizens Advice argues that the state has to pick up the cost of homelessness, poor health and the other consequences of people not receiving early advice on civil justice problems. It estimates that £1 of expenditure on legal aid saves the state around £6 in other spending.

I am sure that all my fellow Peers are heartened by the recent evidence of some upturn in the economy. However, if the experience of previous recessions is correct, it will be some time before the advice needs of the sort of people I have referred to will reduce. Many advice agencies are reporting an increase in demand for services while they are being forced to cut back due to cuts in legal aid and other public spending. For example, in April 2013 Shelter reported a 40% increase in the number of callers to its advice line seeking help with housing-related problems. I also note that, in a recent report, the Cabinet Office accepts that,

“there seems to be a pattern of rising demand”,

for advice,

“during difficult economic circumstances”.

This is hardly surprising.

It is for this reason—the increasing demand for advice and, above all else, the need to assist the sort of people facing the difficult circumstances I am describing—that I urge the Government to look seriously at implementing the recommendations of this excellent report. Everyone, regardless of their sex, ethnic background or disability should have the right to equality before the law. There are some excellent suggestions in this report which will certainly help, but I am deeply concerned that the reduction in the availability of legal aid, as well as other advice services, is putting the fundamental principle of a democratic society at risk.

Children and Families Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, I am particularly glad that the debate on the probing amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Northbourne did not take place at the end of the Committee session last Wednesday. We are being allowed to take a much deeper look at this important area. Reducing the number of dysfunctional children needs a lot more attention paid to it. On prevention through early intervention, Frank Field and Graham Allen have said it all. Parental responsibilities are enormous, and children need to feel safe and loved, as my noble friend rightly emphasised.

A really good plus is that today families are beginning to share the bringing up of children. Fathers are often much more practically involved in their children’s upbringing. It used to be the case that mother would say, “You wait until your father gets home. He’ll deal with you”. Not any more. Fathers themselves gain great enjoyment from this sort of relationship, and that is very pleasing to see. Young people have to learn about what is needed to bring up today’s children. They have to know about the substantial dangers that children have to face as they grow up. There are new communications techniques and things that can be found on the internet. Also, with fellow children at school, there are things like sexting and sending pictures that no one would want to have shown around. This may be a probing amendment but, my goodness, it is important and should make us all think very carefully about how wide this subject is. I am sure that the Government are fully aware of the importance of this issue.

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)]

My Lords, in a personal capacity I very much support this amendment. I have been an officer to the Parents and Families Group for a long time. The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is chairman of the group. I fully agree with the remarks made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, on the importance of family relationships on how children emerge. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, it seems absurd that the only law we have in this country relates to property and not to responsibilities. In all conscience, we are keeping responsibilities on local authorities, on schools and on all kinds of people in this Bill. However, to some extent, those who have prime responsibility for bringing up children should be made to recognise that they have such responsibilities. As the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, said, the Scots have this law. It is a good law and there is a lot to be said for copying their example.

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, for the reasons already given, which I will not repeat, I, too, support this amendment.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I was intending to support Amendment 57 when we spoke earlier on Amendment 56. However, it is clearly essential that governors, sponsors, head teachers—those responsible for what goes on in the school—are alert to what is set out here. The point I make about this—others have made it too —is that there are a lot of amendments dotted all over this paper referring to different aspects of what we are discussing, so we are going to come back to this again and again. The ear-bashing and encouragement that the Minister has had will help to indicate the right way of making these important issues completely plain. It is crucial that what the school stands for is made clear to the pupils. I could not be more supportive of the importance of getting that principle across.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I again thank all contributors to this debate. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, said, we will return to some of the issues in different guises during the passage of the Bill. That is partly what Committee stage is for: to look at these issues and see where we can clean up the Bill.

Since 1998, all schools have been required to provide a balanced and broadly based curriculum which prepares pupils for the opportunities, responsibilities and experiences of later life. This includes academy schools by virtue of Section 1A of the Academies Act 2010, which is reflected in their funding agreements.

Legal Aid

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 11th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I have significant concerns about all these proposals. However, I shall focus my comments on the impact that they will have on children and young people.

This generation of children and young people is a particularly important one upon which we will all need to depend. Regrettably, they are facing unprecedented challenges in achieving their potential and negotiating a smooth path to a happy and successful adulthood. The phenomena of high youth unemployment, rising youth homelessness and widespread adolescent mental health difficulties are well documented. They help to highlight why it is incumbent upon our lawmakers to ensure that children and young people are able to receive all support to which they are legally entitled and to consider what impact new policies and laws will have on young people.

I understand that the Government have yet to publish any kind of age impact assessment relating to these proposals. This is highly regrettable and I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure the House that the Government intend to publish such an assessment. If they do not, there is surely a danger that they will be in breach of their commitments and undertakings, including those under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, to protect children, and that the changes will be open to legal challenge.

In the mean time, we should all listen carefully to expert voices, such as that of the Children’s Commissioner, who has expressed her concern that the legal aid proposals that we are debating today will have a disproportionate and profoundly negative impact on children and young people by curtailing their access to justice. I am indebted to JustRights for its detailed assessment, which makes it clear that children and young people’s very safety and well-being would be jeopardised if the proposals were to be implemented. In other words, the changes would have major implications for child protection as well as for access to justice.

I shall give two examples. I shall not go into trafficking in detail because it has already been dealt with by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig. However, the Court of Appeal has recognised the importance of treating people who have been trafficked as victims. The proposals would take away a crucial route to protection for trafficked children and young people who are extremely vulnerable to sexual exploitation, abuse and violence. Extraordinarily, even British-born babies aged less than 12 months will be excluded by the residence test. Also, the removal of prison law from scope will deny children and young people in detention access to legal aid. These young people are in another exceptionally vulnerable group, often with learning difficulties or mental health problems. Many will have endured troubled childhoods and spent time in care. It is simply inhumane to deny them a crucial route to challenging and preventing bullying and abuse in prison or obtaining support to aid their resettlement on release.

Meanwhile, limiting the circumstances in which judicial review can be brought will have a devastating impact on young people. For example, where a local authority has not, as corporate parent, provided the correct package of support to a young person in care or a care leaver, or has housed a young person in unsuitable accommodation, the circumstances under which its decisions can be challenged will become very limited. The power imbalance inherent in the relationship between the individual and the state, and between a child or a young person and the state in particular, necessitates mechanisms for challenging decisions and unfair treatment by state authorities that, if left unchallenged, can often have devastating consequences for the young person well into their adult lives.

We are all aware of the Government’s need to find savings but this cannot come at the expense of weakening our systems for protecting vulnerable young people and exposing them to abuse, homelessness and destitution. Common sense tells us that these proposals would cost the public Exchequer far more in the long term than the Government hope to save. This is confirmed by rigorous research for Youth Access, which shows that a young person with a legal advice problem typically costs local public services as much as £13,000 before they manage to obtain advice. Much of this cost falls on councils, social services, housing departments and on the NHS. Huge savings could be made by ensuring earlier advice.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, and the noble Lord, Lord Bach, reminded the House that its support for protecting access to legal aid for children and young persons was abundantly clear during the passage of the LASPO Act. Indeed, I remember it all very deeply myself. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will tell us how the Government intend to ensure that children and young people will be able to continue to receive age-appropriate legal advice and representation if they push ahead with these ill conceived proposals.

Offender Rehabilitation Bill [HL]

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, we could have a debate now, although it is a very thinly attended House, but it may assist the House if I explain that the reason why I am not bringing forward a government amendment now, as I said in Committee that I would, is simply to do with the machinery of getting clearance through something called HAC. I am not sure whether it is still a secret that Cabinets have committees, but that stands for the Home Affairs Committee. It is my intention to table an amendment for Third Reading, which I hope will cover the concerns expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. I promise to consult him on that amendment, and that might be the occasion for a full debate on the subject, perhaps with the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, restored to health and ready to make a contribution.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, despite that important announcement, I want to say a very few words in support of the amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. When we are taking into consideration the special needs of women and the fact that they might have been subject to domestic violence and have all sorts of other problems that need special attention, we should also remember the damage that imprisonment is likely to do to their family and the potential damage to future generations of children, who are much more likely to offend. I did not intend to take up time; I just wanted to remind. The Minister might like to remember those points when addressing the points that he has told us he is going to address.

[Lord Woolf]

My Lords, in view of what the Minister has said, which I take as a very positive indication to the House and to me, I do not propose to press the amendment further at this stage.