Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 21st February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I have a vivid memory of speaking at a meeting during the referendum campaign back in 2016. All sorts of speeches were made and grand ideas put forward, and then right at the end of the meeting a lady got up and said, “I don’t care about any of this. The only reason I’m voting to leave the EU is so that we can get rid of live animal exports for slaughter”—although I do not think she actually used the word “slaughter”. It was a vivid example of how people saw specific things in the referendum campaign that they knew the EU was doing that they wanted to change, and that was one.

I am disappointed in the way that the Government have taken so long to get this relatively simple Bill to come back. It is like a number of other issues on which the idea of taking back control seems to have frightened civil servants and Ministers, so it has taken a lot longer to get these things done.

I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, and the many Peers and Members of the other place who have campaigned on this issue for a long time and kept it in the public domain. I remember clearly that in 2012-13 there were lots of demonstrations in Ramsgate and Dover, when a lot of the public saw for the first time the horror of what was going on in some of those lorries, with sheep packed in them for the long journeys ahead. It is that kind of campaigning that has got us to this stage, and that is where the noble Baroness has played such a huge role.

Of course I will support the Bill but, as others have said, there are changes that could be made, and I would certainly like it to go much further. It is not acceptable, here in the House of Lords in the United Kingdom Parliament, that the Bill is not going to apply to Northern Ireland. I thank the Minister for reaching out after I had asked a question about this and having an interesting and useful meeting. I am not sure it was particularly useful in terms of changing things, but I accept that he has done his best in his role to listen to those of us who feel strongly that animal welfare should be a UK-wide matter and that ways could be found even at a late stage, in Committee, to ensure that the Bill applied to the whole country as a whole.

There is no good reason why the Bill could not have applied to Northern Ireland with an amendment clause making it clear that, when animals are exported to the Republic, a final destination must be stated when they cross over the border from Northern Ireland. The aim is to stop animals from being taken for long journeys in terrible suffering, but that will not have been achieved for the thousands of animals that will in future still be able to be transported from Northern Ireland, through the Republic and onwards into the continent of Europe and perhaps even to north Africa—much longer journeys than are happening at the moment.

As Sammy Wilson, the Member for East Antrim, said in the other place, it is a bit like Pontius Pilate; as long as the animals do not go through Great Britain, morally we can all sit back here and say, “Great, we’ve done it”, when in fact we have not changed the situation. As we all know and has been said, hardly anything has been exported over the last couple of years from Great Britain, but in all that time animals have been exported from Northern Ireland through the Republic of Ireland. It is a bit hypocritical, not from the Minister but overall from the Government, that they have tried to emphasise that Northern Ireland has been left out because of the Government’s deep concern about farmers not being able to take their cattle over the border to be fattened or to abattoirs.

On abattoirs, I absolutely agree that the ruination of small abattoirs by EU rules is also something that we should be able to act on. The £4 million sum is really very little, and that needs to be looked at.

This is not to do with protecting Northern Ireland agriculture or farmers. The truth is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, has said, as in so many other areas of legislation now—we are going to keep hearing this—European Union law overrules UK law in Northern Ireland. The Windsor Framework/protocol is making sure that Northern Ireland is once again being treated differently from the rest of the UK. There was a manifesto commitment from the Government, and yet, again, we have seen that the Government have to kowtow to European Union rules.

Another area in which it has just been confirmed we are going to have differences—again, an animal welfare issue—came after assurances from the Secretary of State that pets travelling from England, Scotland or Wales to Northern Ireland would no longer have any administrative bureaucracy. We now discover specifically that they are going to have to be treated differently, and will have to apply for pet documents.

The Government need to accept that, if they really wanted to, they could change the Bill to make it apply to the whole of Northern Ireland. The Minister did not mention the WTO, but I am sure he will say in his wind-up that we could not make special exceptions for the Republic of Ireland and the cross-border trade, which is important and needs to continue, because the WTO would rule that it was not possible under the favoured nations treaty.

However, there is an exemption in the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade of 1994, which clearly says that one of its exceptions enables states to take measures

“necessary to protect human, animal or plant life or health”.

There has been some legal opinion published which holds that Article XX, which enables states to act “to protect public morals”, is an even stronger basis for justifying trade restrictions based on animal welfare concerns. This has been used before, including in challenges in Canada, and it is set out clearly in the Explanatory Memorandum. So there is a way of doing it. It is not even as if we have to ask permission to do it. We can do it, and then if somebody wants to complain, we can take it up with the WTO if it tries to stop it.

I do not want in any way to hold this Bill up— I know that I would not be able to ever have a cup of coffee with the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes, again if that happened—but there are one or two minor but very important amendments that we could debate in Committee and that the Government could accept, if they had the will. If this is not changed, and Northern Ireland cannot be brought into it, I hope that all those noble Lords who are so supportive of the European Union and think it is wonderful, and are also desperately keen on animal welfare, might perhaps decide that it would be a good idea to lobby the European Union to get rid of its rules, which allow this terrible, horrible trade to continue, right across Europe.

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[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all 14 noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have spoken for their thoughtful and constructive comments, and in particular those, beginning with the noble Baroness, Lady Young, who congratulated me on my appointment and my first Bill. It is a pleasure to have delivered such a happy birthday present to my noble friend Lady Fookes.

As we have heard, the Bill will end the unnecessary export of livestock and horses for slaughter and fattening, and prevent the associated stress, exhaustion and injury caused by these journeys. It signals to our international partners our firm commitment to improving welfare standards for all kept animals, reinforcing our position as global leaders on this important issue. Many animal welfare groups, as well as a number of parliamentarians, have called for this ban on live exports. We know that there is also huge public support for this measure. There is clear and broad recognition that we must end these unnecessary journeys.

Before I address a number of the specific questions, I will briefly touch on two things. The first, from the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, is the bluetongue virus, which is very current. I do not have a timeframe for when this restriction will be lifted, but I will get back to her as soon as I do. The second, from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, is the welfare of animals during a transport delay. I will write and confirm the exact details of how they are looked after and how we address this issue.

I turn now to the questions asked by noble Lords. The noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady Jones, my noble friend Lady Fookes and many others queried why other species were not within the scope of the ban. I assure them that the Bill’s definition of “relevant livestock” covers all species for which there has been a significant slaughter export trade, which the Government consulted on in 2020. In the 10 years prior to EU exit, the live export trade for slaughter and fattening mainly involved sheep and unweaned calves.

Compassion in World Farming and the RSPCA, both leading campaigners on banning live exports for the past 50 years, agree that the Bill covers the relevant species to end this unnecessary trade. Responding to proposed amendments in the other place, Compassion in World Farming said that it is not aware of any alpacas, llamas or deer being exported for slaughter, and the RSPCA said that only sheep, calves and horses have been exported from Britain for slaughter over the last 10 years.

The issue of small abattoirs was raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich, the noble Lords, Lord Carrington, Lord Trees and Lord de Clifford, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hoey, Lady Bakewell and Lady Hayman, and my noble friend Lady Hodgson, so it was a popular subject today. Many asked what further financial assistance there is for small abattoirs and what work we are doing to promote and market sheep products, particularly in order to develop our meat export trade. The farming investment fund has offered access to financial support to establish new producer-led abattoirs. Now that the first round is closed, we will assess how the scheme has performed and will investigate the potential launching of a second round later this year. The Government are working with the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board and industry to help secure market access for world-class British red meat and dairy, empowering our exporters to maximise opportunities on the global stage.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, queried whether Northern Ireland could be used as a loophole for transporters wanting to export livestock for slaughter and fattening. I assure him that the requirements when moving animals to Northern Ireland would make such a slaughter trade uneconomic. Livestock transported for slaughter from Great Britain to Northern Ireland must go directly to the slaughterhouse. It would be an offence to take them anywhere else. When livestock are moved for other purposes, they must be moved directly to the holding destination and remain there for at least 30 days. Failure to do so is an offence and may result in prosecution. We will also continue to monitor volumes over the next few years as this policy takes effect.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

The Minister rightly said that, in theory, anyway, the 30-day period stops in respect of transportation from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. But what about all the animals in Northern Ireland that will not be affected by that limit, and that will go to the Republic and down to Rosslare, and on a long journey to France and then Morocco?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point. Once animals have passed into the Republic of Ireland, that is outwith the jurisdiction of the Bill. That is the current position.

I would like to address the issues eloquently described by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, concerning Northern Ireland and the Bill. I hope they will appreciate that I am somewhat constrained in this respect. Perhaps I might write to them separately on the issues they have raised.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, raised the question of negotiations with the EU on veterinary medicines going into Northern Ireland. The Government are committed to seeing a long-term, sustainable solution ahead of December 2025 that will properly support the flow of veterinary medicines into Northern Ireland from Great Britain on an enduring basis. It remains our priority to find a solution, through technical talks with the EU, that removes the barriers to supply of veterinary medicines into Northern Ireland. The Government are very clear that, in all scenarios, it is imperative to safeguard the supply of veterinary medicines into Northern Ireland. If necessary, we will deploy all available flexibilities in line with our legal obligations.

The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked about the impact of this legislation on farmers and businesses. The current position is that we expect the ban to have minimal impact. We published an impact assessment in 2021, which can be accessed via the Bill’s Explanatory Notes. We estimated the direct cost to businesses of ending live exports to be around £5.2 million across the 10-year appraisal period, or around £500,000 per year. As there have been no exports for this purpose since 2020, the impact will have further decreased.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, also asked about border control posts on the northern coast of France. EU border control posts can be operated only with the approval of the competent authority in the relevant EU member state. The majority of BCPs are privately operated, and the main barrier to date for the establishment of a BCP for livestock is the commercial viability of such a site. We have encouraged our counterparts in France to do more to support commercial efforts to construct and operate a BCP for livestock, and we continue to engage with them to try to resolve this issue.

Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme) Regulations 2023

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

It behoves the Government to take a look around and see exactly what is going on. The days of spin are over. The moment is now upon us: we need action on this. Do the Government place greater emphasis on placating a Europe that can be sometimes hostile and belligerent, rather than having the restoration of a Northern Ireland Assembly and an Executive? I hope that they do not repeat what happened in 1972.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I genuinely congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, on putting down this regret Motion and giving us the opportunity to discuss something that, as he said, needs more discussion. I thought the submission from the Democratic Unionist Party to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee was well worth a read. I hope that noble Lords who are here, and the very many who are not and never seem to come for anything to do with Northern Ireland, have read it. It is a clear indictment of what is wrong with the Windsor Framework.

Three times the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said it notes that these submissions reflect the views of the DUP and that no other submissions were received—as if somehow that implied that this was not very important. The regulations were laid during the summer. Some of us, even in this place, who have been in Parliament for a very long time find it quite difficult to know exactly when SIs are laid, how they are put forward and when things have to be in by. How does anyone expect the average small business, small shop or trader in Northern Ireland to understand what is going on in the way we need to in this place to get that scrutiny? I hope members of the committee did not mean to suggest in a derogatory way that, because there were not many submissions on these regulations, they are not important.

Both noble Lords have gone into great detail about how the regulations will work. It is very clear, the more we see what is happening with the Windsor Framework, that it has not been any kind of genuine reset or change to the protocol. It has been spun and spun as if it is something remarkable. I do not want again to go over when the Prime Minister came to Northern Ireland to tell us how wonderful this was. We are now seeing that detail, which was never looked at by many in the press lobby, who lapped up what the Prime Minister said to spin it to people in Northern Ireland that it would be brilliant. There has been criticism of Conservative and Labour Members of Parliament—but particularly Conservative and Unionist, who I would have thought would have more sense than to be taken in by a bland statement about how wonderful it would be. Many of those Members of Parliament said to move on to something different because they were fed up with it. That is not going to happen, and as the noble Lords have said, the deal is unworkable. It may not seem it at the moment, because of all that has been said about it being very early days and the structures not being in place. There is a feeling that we must be as careful as possible not to be too diligent because it should look like it is working normally, and that trade is moving back and forth just as if there had never been an Irish sea border.

Anyone reading the detail of these regulations can see clearly that the green lane is not a green lane. It is nonsensical to say that it is. It does not give unfettered access: that term is used, in my view—and, I hope, that of noble Lords—for free movement within a single market, which automatically would not have to face customs, SPS borders or border control posts.

The alternative arrangements made by the Windsor Framework are simply an alternative form of border arrangements. They do not remove, as the Prime Minister said they would, any sense of a border in the Irish Sea. This deals just with trade issues, not things such as people going as foot passengers to Cairnryan, as I mentioned in Committee the other week, and being told to get there early to go through border control. It is unbelievable that that can be said to people moving within their own country and that any Government would allow this to happen. It is extraordinary that this so-called Conservative and Unionist Government have allowed it.

As has been referred to, the very important European Union document from which all of this comes is EU regulation 2023/1231 of the Council of 14 June 2023 on

“specific rules relating to the entry into Northern Ireland from other parts of the United Kingdom of certain consignments of retail goods, plants for planting, seed potatoes, machinery and certain vehicles operated for agricultural or forestry purposes, as well as non-commercial movements of certain pet animals into Northern Ireland”.

Do not get me started on pets. I know that they are not the subject of this SI, but in the detail of this many-paged regulation, under article 12 there are three pages on what you will have to do to take your pet with you from London when visiting family in Northern Ireland. Yet the Prime Minister said there would be no problem—pets would be moved without you having to do a single thing. It is outrageous. It has not come into effect yet and, presumably, we will get a detailed SI on it, but I warn every pet owner in Northern Ireland that, if they think this is sorted, they are very mistaken.

The section of this document—which refers to all the issues we are discussing today—that is so shocking, as has been referred to already, is article 14. It will allow the European Union when it suits it, when the time is right and it wants something else to have a go at the United Kingdom for, to stop the green lane completely. It can say that, if we are not doing it properly—and it can always find some reason to say that it is not being done properly—it will stop the green lane.

We have left the EU—supposedly. Northern Ireland has not, as we know, although people had the same ballot paper, as I keep reminding people. It did not say: “If you vote to leave, you’re not actually going to leave. Only a little bit will leave, and the rest of you will stay within the EU”. This document shamelessly pertains to the Government not just of Northern Ireland but of the United Kingdom, to divide us into two. It is very different from all the other rules that apply to Northern Ireland, which apply to the EU as a whole and to Northern Ireland because it is part of the EU in that respect. However, this regulation applies just to the UK. Not only does it divide it in two, but it is far more humiliating than anything we were subject to as a member of the European Union because we have not made it.

Let us be honest. The European Union is still in charge of a substantial part of the United Kingdom and still governs Northern Ireland in many ways, this time without any involvement from us. I will not even mention the Stormont brake because it is not really relevant today, but it is complete and utter nonsense. Everyone knows that it is, but no one in the Government wants to admit it.

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[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, for tabling this Motion, and all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate today. I pay great tribute to him and his colleagues. I entirely understand the passion that underlies their concerns about this. All of us who have had knowledge and understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland over a great many decades appreciate the underlying emotions that exist on issues relating to this. Trade is so important to every person in Northern Ireland for all of us who care about the union.

We have before us two key pieces of legislation, the Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme) Regulations 2023 and the Windsor Framework (Plant Health) Regulations 2023. Both play a pivotal role in the implementation of the Windsor Framework. I am pleased to announce that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, has said, the schemes are now live and trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland is once again on a more stable and long-term footing. It is our fervent wish to successfully restore the smooth flow of trade within the UK internal market and safeguard Northern Ireland’s place in the union.

First, I would like to provide some background on the retail movement scheme regulations. The scheme establishes a robust and sustainable legal framework for the movement of pre-packaged retail agri-food goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. This framework offers traders a unique set of arrangements, reducing barriers to trade by facilitating the movement of consignments based on a single certificate, compared with hundreds of vet-signed certificates for individual products needed under the old protocol. One of the key benefits secured by this scheme is the disapplication of over 60 pieces of EU legislation for goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, ensuring a consistent approach across the entire United Kingdom. This means that goods which meet British public health, marketing and organics standards will be able to move to Northern Ireland.

We have a long-standing commitment to ensure that Northern Ireland’s businesses have unfettered access to their most important market, Great Britain. The Northern Ireland protocol guaranteed unfettered access for Northern Ireland’s businesses to the GB market. This was legislated for in the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and is reflected in the border target operating model. Furthermore, it has been raised in this debate that the instruments are contrary to the objectives of the Northern Ireland protocol listed in Article 1(2) of the Windsor Framework. In response to that assertion, I assure noble Lords that the Windsor Framework restores the smooth flow of trade within the UK internal market by removing the unnecessary burdens that have disrupted east-west trade. We are now able to achieve the long-standing UK government objective of restoring the smooth flow of trade within the UK internal market by pursuing a green lane for the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, supporting Northern Ireland’s place in the UK. We are confident that the Windsor Framework upholds our objectives to ensure that Northern Ireland’s place in the union is protected. Specifically, the framework allows for goods which meet British standards to be available in all parts of the UK, ensuring that consumers in Northern Ireland have access to the same goods as those elsewhere in the UK.

The plant health regulations pave the way for the smooth movement of plants and seeds for planting, seed potatoes and used agricultural and forestry machinery and vehicles between Great Britain and Northern Ireland when applying a Northern Ireland plant health label. The Northern Ireland plant health label scheme aligns closely with the current UK plant passport regime, making it familiar and accessible to all businesses engaged in the commercial movement of plants within Great Britain. This label will replace the need for plants and seeds for planting to be accompanied by a phytosanitary certificate, significantly reducing costs. Instead of paying £150 per movement into Northern Ireland, growers and businesses can now pay approximately £120 annually to be part of this scheme, which is the same as the cost for the UK plant passport regime.

Importantly, these regulations will also allow previously banned seed potatoes to be once again available in Northern Ireland from other parts of the UK while remaining prohibited in the Republic of Ireland. This will have a significant impact on trade between Scotland and Northern Ireland, with an estimated 2,500 tonnes of seed potatoes expected to move from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. The EU’s risk assessment process for the movement of so-called high-risk trees, a point raised by my noble friend Lady Lawlor, is being expedited. Once approved, they will move from Great Britain to Northern Ireland with the Northern Ireland plant health label. We prioritised removing bans on the movement of plants and trees of greatest importance to industry—seed potatoes and the 11 most important British native and other commonly grown trees. I assure my noble friend that hawthorn is under that definition.

The Windsor Framework has also removed the Irish Sea border for goods remaining in the UK, providing a firm legal foundation for trade and allowing everyday goods to move efficiently between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It does so while protecting biosecurity on the island of Ireland, which has been treated as a single epidemiological unit for decades. It also safeguards Northern Ireland’s privileged access to the EU single market, which has been a clear demand from businesses to protect livelihoods. These regulations play a critical role in facilitating the seamless movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reducing trade barriers, and promoting a more efficient and cost-effective trading environment. They are essential components of the Windsor Framework; I hope therefore I can convince all noble Lords to support their implementation, as we debated before the Summer Recess.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

Could the Minister clearly define “unfettered access”?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I will refer to the noble Baroness’s bulbs. I do not know why the company she bought her bulbs from returned her money and did not wish for her custom, because the movement of plants, including bulbs, to consumers is possible if it is through a registered operator, including mail order and internet sales. I hope that one day bulbs from GB will adorn her garden in Northern Ireland. In direct answer to her question on unfettered access, I say that we all want is for goods—whether bulbs or anything else—to be traded within the United Kingdom in a similar way to anywhere within GB. I want to make sure that we are working towards that, and this is not perfect, as the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, said—nothing that we pass through Parliament is perfect—but it is a considerable improvement and one that has been welcomed by many businesses in Northern Ireland. I hope that in moving towards that goal we will see greater understanding as the schemes are rolled out.

The noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, asked me about recent changes and the points raised by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe. There has been a huge amount of engagement with business, and that will continue. We want to make sure that the east-west trading discussions continue. I also want to assure the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, that we believe that even though some of the infrastructure is not yet built, the temporary arrangements are adequate; they are not perfect, and the sooner that we can have the more formal infrastructure in place, then we will see an improvement not just for trade but for the people who work there.

The Government recognise that it is vital that we are now able to restore the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. Although our retail movement scheme protects Northern Ireland from problems caused by regulatory divergence between the UK and the EU, we are seeing problematic divergence from the lack of an Assembly. We are, for example, unable to apply prohibitions on dangerous dogs UK-wide. Outside my departmental brief, we are seeing growing divergence on health waiting lists and core public services. I echo the points made by a number of noble Lords about the need to move towards some form of local democracy, which we put in place through the arrangements that have superseded the end of the sitting of the Assembly. I really welcome the comments made by the leader of the DUP indicating why it is important that decisions are taken locally.

I am grateful for this further opportunity to make the case for a greatly improved trading arrangement and for the valuable discussion. A number of points were raised of a highly technical nature, and if I have not covered them in my reply I am very happy to take them forward with noble Lords after this debate. I really hope I have gone as far as I can to convince the mover of this Motion to Regret, the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and others to not push it to the vote.

Farm Animal Welfare

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his involvement with that Act. He challenged me and the House to become more knowledgeable during our debates on it. We think that the Act will have huge benefits for animal welfare; I have two examples for the noble Lord. The Roslin Institute and Genus have developed gene-edited versions of pigs, which could improve the situation with regard to porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome, a terrible disease of that animal. The other example is pancreatic necrosis virus in salmon. We want to make sure that we are regulating this properly; we talked about that throughout debates on the Act. We now have a system in which there is transparency about how we regulate that, but I will continue to keep the House informed as we develop that.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, can the Minister clarify exactly when the ban on live animals for slaughter being exported is coming in? Is it not a fact that, when and if it does, it could not apply to Northern Ireland because Northern Ireland has been under EU rules on live animals for slaughter?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The number of live animals exported from Great Britain since Brexit has been zero—none: not one. There is one vessel, the “Joline”, which operates out of Folkestone and has the capacity to take live exports from Great Britain to Europe, and there is none going on that vessel at the moment. We still want to bring in this legislation, because there may be future demand, the infrastructure to support that trade might start up again and we want to make sure we are legislating in the right way. On the key point about Northern Ireland, that is an even more complex issue, because we are trying to resolve this through the Windsor Framework, but I will write to the noble Baroness on that.

Official Controls (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 1st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

I acknowledged that there were points of issue and clarification; I understand them. My point, however, is that an agreement has been reached which encapsulates some of those concerns. The choice is whether we accept the agreement or whether we use those grievances to reject it and consequently leave Northern Ireland in a double limbo, denied democracy in terms of a Government and an Assembly and continuing to have the uncertainty of a non-achievable protocol. I am giving some credit, for heaven’s sake, to this Government, who have taken a common-sense approach to try to secure something which many people did not think would be achievable—I personally always thought it was and we could have done it a lot earlier. I think they are whistling in the wind if they think that raising those objections is going to change the basis of what has been agreed by any fundamental and significant amount. I think I have acknowledged that, and I am suggesting we face political reality.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, and thank him for giving us this real opportunity, which we have not yet had, to discuss what came out earlier in the week from the Prime Minister and the EU. I say right away that it is very interesting to hear from so many people, not just here but everywhere, how awful things were and how they were not working, including in the framework document itself, where every single item starts with an attack on the protocol. It is very interesting because some of us have been saying that for a very long time and got quite a lot of pushback from Ministers and others, who kept saying, “Oh, no, nothing can ever change; the protocol has to stay.” I say gently to the noble Lord who has just spoken that his party in Northern Ireland, which I think has a very strong relationship with the Alliance Party, went down to Dublin with Sinn Féin during the Covid regulations to call for the rigorous implementation of the protocol. I may have missed it over the last few days, but maybe the Alliance Party has now decided to apologise for the nonsense of calling for rigorous implementation of something which has now been accepted by everyone to have been wrong and did not work.

I have sympathy for the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Benyon. I know there will be lots of things coming up tonight that will not really be his direct responsibility, but I think he will understand that those of us from Northern Ireland feel that we have to take every opportunity to make sure that our grievances and our strongly held views, particularly on the issue of sovereignty, are raised at every opportunity. I agree with everything said by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and I will not go over the specific issues on some of the pitfalls of these green and red lanes. It is sufficient to say that it was disappointing that our Prime Minister so vigorously implied that now it was all sorted; the green lanes had made a great difference, and there were going to be no checks—I think he actually used the words “no checks”.

I have spent a bit of time reading—I hope, like other noble Lords—what the EU said just after the framework document was published. I have to say, it is very different in every single aspect. You look at what the Prime Minister said, you then compare it to what the European Union is saying, and it is very different indeed.

I am afraid that this means that once again there is an over-positivity coming through from the Government, and I understand that—they want to show that they have made real changes. The reality, as the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, has pointed out is that they have not made real changes, and as each hour and each day passes, and the detail of what has been agreed is examined and scrutinised, we find more and more that it does not live up to reality.

I look forward very much—I think it will be around now or perhaps later this evening—to the first legal opinion. There will be many legal opinions over the next week or two, and it is right that the Prime Minister has said that there is time for people to study this, but the first legal opinion will come out tonight on the legality—particularly relating to the Act of Union, but on other aspects too. We are going to see some very strong legal opinions that will show that the Prime Minister has overplayed this very much.

I want to say one further thing on the green lanes, because it is important. If a trader in Bristol trades with Birmingham, and then decides the next day to trade with Belfast—part of the same United Kingdom—they must be able to trade in exactly the same way. That is not going to happen: the green lanes are going to require around 30 documents to be filled in, and then the checks that will happen will depend very much on what is in the load. If it were a genuine green lane, we would not need a green lane; we would simply be sending goods as we do to any other part of the United Kingdom.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, has gone into that in detail, and I hope that people have the opportunity to listen to some of those people who are engaged in sending lorries back and forward, what they have to go through and how this will not make very much difference. Indeed, what it will do is cause a huge divergence of trade, something that was very important to the internal market within Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I want to mention a couple of things and I ask the Minister that, if he cannot answer them, perhaps he will pass them on to someone who can. I know that the Northern Ireland Office may be finding it difficult to deal with all the questions that are going in because they do not necessarily have the answers, but somebody must have this answer because somebody has agreed and signed this agreement. For example, we now understand that Northern Ireland consumers who are buying products online, which many people do, will be able to do so only if the seller is prepared to fill in customs declarations. I ask the Minister if this is right.

If a new car exported for sale by a Northern Ireland dealer will have to be made to EU standards, not UK ones, that does not seem to me like “no Irish sea border”. At the moment the regulations and standards might well be similar, but eventually there will be divergence. There is absolutely no point to us having left the European Union if we do not take advantage of the fact that we can diverge and do things differently, and live up to the standards of our own country. So could the Minister confirm whether this is correct?

Now for something that is perhaps more in his line of understanding: we understand that the GB-Northern Ireland seed potato ban—the Minister looks more interested when I talk about seed potatoes—is not totally reversed. They will be able to be traded from grower to grower, but direct-to-consumer and retail packs are still excluded. So people who I know who grow small amounts and get their seeds from Great Britain will still not be able to have that without all the bureaucracy and paperwork that already exists. I have asked about that, and I know the noble Lord, Lord Caine, who is here, has been very kind in seeing if he can find an answer to it.

Something that matters a lot to people in Northern Ireland are their pets. We have been told by Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, that—great—everybody can take their pets, but they might need a little document. In fact, what the EU says is that people will be able to travel with their pets from GB to Northern Ireland—is it not good of the EU to let us do that?—with only a simple pet document needed and a declaration by the owner that the pet will not go into the EU; that is into the Republic of Ireland. How is that going to work? Is it not absolutely amazing that our own country is saying that you can take your pet to Wales or Scotland but you cannot take it to Northern Ireland without all this bureaucracy and hassle?

One of my favourite ones, which I have brought up before—again, I had hoped that this declaration might actually have the answer—and which also matters to people, although it is not a huge issue, is the question of duty-free. Since we left the European Union, duty-free has been restored to Great Britain, but it has not, of course, been restored to Northern Ireland. So, if you fly from Belfast to somewhere in the EU, you would expect to get duty-free, as you could if you flew from Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow or Cardiff. But you cannot, because we are still in the EU single market. Then you might say, “Great, so I’ll be able to get from Belfast to London, or Belfast to Birmingham”, as you can from Dublin to London. “Oh, no”, says the Treasury, “you can’t do that either”. Nothing in this document will say whether that has now been changed. We cannot just be left in this kind of limbo situation where we are allowed to do something when it suits the European Union but are not allowed when it does not suit it. So that is another question: what is the situation with duty-free?

I am not going to mention state aid. For anyone that is interested in that, if they look at the detail, they will see that the state aid issue has not been sorted—and neither has the VAT issue. There is a huge number of things that have not been sorted in any way to make things better.

Some of your Lordships may know Brendan O’Neill; I am going to give him a bit of publicity. He wrote a most brilliant article in something called Spiked, which I am not sure is regular reading for your Lordships. He wrote in a very amusing but serious way about what the framework document is doing. He talks a lot about the body language between the Prime Minister and the President of the European Commission and the fact that they obviously really like each other and get on well. He said:

“Behind the niceties, what we had here was the prime minister of a supposedly free nation expressing child-like glee that a foreign oligarchy had granted him permission to enact certain policies within his own borders.”


He then goes through all the things that the Prime Minister was welcoming. For example, he has welcomed the fact that, in our own country, we are now going to be allowed to have medicines travelling properly throughout the United Kingdom.

I end by saying that I am sorry that, although everyone who is here does care about Northern Ireland, there are obviously a lot of noble Lords and Members of the other place who are interested in Northern Ireland only when something terrible has happened or when something like this is causing problems for the Government. I ask your Lordships to read the document the European Union has come out with. I am afraid that it shows that our Prime Minister has overegged the pudding—I think that is the right expression—and, by doing so, he has actually treated Northern Ireland people as if they are just that little bit stupid and that they will not understand it.

I got that feeling a bit from the noble Lord, Lord Bruce —I am sorry to be seeming to attack him again, but his attitude was one of how terrible it is of the DUP to be even thinking it might not be go back into government. But it is very clear that, if the DUP does go back into the Northern Ireland Executive, it is going to have to implement this protocol. Call it what you like, but the basis of the protocol is still there and the fundamental issue of sovereignty is still there. This issue has not been solved, and this framework document—to which I refuse to give the name it has been given by the Prime Minister—will not solve the issue. I appeal genuinely to all noble Lords to read the EU document and then compare it to what our Prime Minister has said.

--- Later in debate ---

Boris Johnson never promised that. When he talked about the protocol and introduced the Bill, he said it was to fix the protocol, not to nix it. It was never advertised as nixing it. That was quite right because to do so would undermine the entire basis of the Government’s approach. The Good Friday agreement requires substantial action to meet the alienation of the unionist community, but it is also perfectly clear under that same article that action which went so far as to destroy—

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

The noble Lord talks, as many people do, about a hard border. Could he quickly define a hard border and then say why it is not possible, given the small amount of trade that goes across it, as we know, for this border to be not at the frontier but inside the Republic of Ireland?

[Lord Bew (CB)]

The noble Baroness has a point. It fits with something which I think is widely misunderstood in this House. The Financial Times, which I believe is regularly read on European matters by those in this House who are pro-Europe, had a report at the beginning of December which said that as a result of this Bill the European Union is pointing out to the Irish Government that it might indeed be the case that as a result of the Bill they will have to consider these checks, which, by the way, were considered by the Irish Government in the early phase of these discussions.

There is another very important point, which is that we have signed two international agreements. I might protest about what happened in the negotiations, but it has happened and there is now no possibility of getting nationalist Northern Ireland to accept any form of checks at the border within the island of Ireland. You can say that is emotional, you can say it is carrying it too far, but lots of things that the unionist community believes are emotional and possibly carried too far. That is just where we are. There needs to be equality of esteem for both communities. We cannot escape that. The Government’s whole case for the past two years has been based on that principle and on trying to level up for the unionist community. They have achieved considerable success with this Bill. These provisions which the Minister has to defend tonight were always advertised as being technically necessary as part of these changes. There is nothing new or surprising about them. The Government’s whole case has been based on a particular line of argument. It has now reached a terminus. We are now in a new place. There is no possibility of carrying on the argument about equality of esteem or neglect of unionists’ interests. There are things that might be done or added or whatever but, in substance, we have reached a logical moment of terminus. This has changed everything. There is no point in just talking in general terms about “I’m unhappy” or “my identity.” We now have to achieve a balance of both identities. That is the heart of my problem with point (4) of this Motion: it does not actually challenge the Good Friday agreement.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

It is important, and I understand what the noble Lord is saying about the feeling there would be—although I am talking about not at the frontier but inside—but does he not accept that there is exactly the same fear and feeling about Northern Ireland people who feel British and pro-union having a border imposed on them in their country? Why does the noble Lord feel that the border at the other frontier is so much more difficult and important than having one within our own country?

[Lord Bew (CB)]

Because as a matter of fact it actually is, and the noble Baroness knows that.

We talk about sovereignty for the people of Northern Ireland. Two years from now there will be a vote in an Assembly on these arrangements. The Assembly will have the right to consider all these matters. There will be no issue of sovereignty then, and we will know what the people of Northern Ireland think. I guarantee that you will not get a majority in the Assembly for any systematic series of checks along the internal border of Ireland—that is just not going to happen—nor will you get the unionist community to accept the protocol as was. It is always a matter of balance. It is very simple.

Many things have been said about sovereignty tonight. Suppose we meet two years from now, and the Assembly has voted and accepted this arrangement, as I think most people believe is extremely likely. All these arguments about sovereignty—“I’ve never heard anything like this”, “It’s outrageous”, “It’s imposed”—would disappear. That vote is coming. To those who are so alarmed about imposition, I say that that vote is coming.

National Food Strategy Independent Review

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 20th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Getting children used to the production of food is a vital part of helping them to enjoy it, so I am absolutely on the same side as the noble Baroness. I would like to see a great many more schemes being developed. It is probably not for the Minister to do this from here, as local schemes are best suited, but I will work with other departments to make sure that that is happening.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

Does the Minister share my disappointment that the national food strategy made no mention of the importance of physical education and sport for young people in schools? We are seeing that being very reduced—not in private schools, but it is still being reduced in our state schools. Surely for a youngster starting off, getting the opportunity to learn about sport and physical education means that they will be much healthier, whatever they eat.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that this is not my ministerial responsibility, but what we are doing in Defra to encourage people to get outside, to learn outside and to enjoy the outside is really impressive. We are working with other government departments to help her ambitions come true.

Brexit: Farmers

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

I agree with the noble Baroness that it is important to provide that certainty. For instance, the national pilot on ELM will be available for applications during this year. Information on payments and supporting guidance will be a key part of that because, clearly, we want eventually to have a very considerable number of farmers engaged in agri- environmental schemes, and for those farmers to be paid properly, adequately and punctually for them.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, I very much welcome the Government’s new approach to sustainable farming. Does the Minister agree that it is quite possible to farm in a way that produces good food and protects welfare? Will he look at the Countryside Restoration Trust, which has successfully pioneered farming for food and wildlife over the last 27 years? Perhaps he could use his influence to ask the Secretary of State to visit Lark Rise Farm in Cambridgeshire to see for himself just how easy it is to make that happen.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con) [V]]

My Lords, what has been done on that farm in Cambridgeshire, where Robin Page has been so strongly engaged for such a long time, is about the essential nature of the harmony between farming and the environment. I am very pleased that, as part of our forward plans, we are establishing an animal health and welfare pathway so that we improve the husbandry and welfare of our farm animals. That is a key part of our reforms.

Fisheries Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Wednesday 21st November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Bill makes it clear that there are principles, to which the Government will be held, that ensure that fishing will be sustainable and that our marine environment will be restored to full health. The Bill will give the Government powers to ensure that no vessel can fish in our waters unless it adheres to those high environmental standards.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Can the Secretary of State just be absolutely clear about this? At the end of March, we will leave the common fisheries policy, but then we will immediately be back in it, by giving the EU the right to make all decisions for however long the transition goes on. It worries me very much when I hear more and more Ministers talking on the “Today” programme about the transition being extended again and again. Why did he allow the Prime Minister to accept in the withdrawal agreement that fisheries would stay as part of the transition?

[Michael Gove]

I will give the hon. Lady, for whom I have enormous respect and affection, one piece of perhaps unsolicited advice: I find that in the morning it is better not to listen to the “Today” programme; Radio 3, or even Radio 2, ensures that I have a more equable morning. However, she makes a very important point about the transition period. A number of Members of this House hoped that in the transition period, when it was agreed earlier this year, the common fisheries policy would be outside, but there is one very significant departure from the overall transition period, which applies to the common fisheries policy, which is that the European Union acknowledged that from 2021 we will be an independent coastal state. Therefore, when we negotiate in the December 2020 Fisheries Council, although we will still legally be a member of the European Union, we will be negotiating then as an independent coastal state. That is why I said at the time that we need to keep our eyes on the prize of making sure that after that transition period we can have all the opportunities to do the right thing environmentally, economically and socially, as I mentioned earlier.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sue Hayman]

Well, of course, any kind of regeneration needs to cover a number of different areas, but we know that fishing would regenerate many, many coastal communities if we were able to land more fish into British ports and if we were able to change quotas. The Secretary of State has said that we have a huge opportunity here to regenerate our coastal communities through investing in fishing, but, obviously, we must have other funding as well, which is why I mentioned earlier the importance of tourism.

Let me turn now to trade. I understand that around 80% of what we catch, we export, and that 70% of the fish that we eat, we import, yet in the Bill there is no mention of trade, customs or tariffs. Labour’s commitment to membership of a customs union would reassure both processors and catchers that they could invest in their industry safe in the knowledge that they would have tariff-free access to the European markets.

I want to talk briefly about the marine environment. Labour welcomes the language in the Bill about reducing the environmental impacts of fishing, but the Bill provides only a vague future framework and does little to explain exactly what this would look like.

[Kate Hoey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the marine environment. She knows that the EU banned electric pulse fishing and then gave a 10-year derogation for Dutch boats—I think, 100 of them—to carry on with it. This really is ruining the ecosystem and the Bill does not ban it. Is this something that my hon. Friend might seek to put into the Bill in Committee?

[Sue Hayman]

Yes, my hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I can confirm that we will absolutely look at this matter in Committee.

We are asking for more detail about discard charges as well as the environmental and sustainability objectives around maximum sustainable yield fisheries management. Labour would go further on environmental protections than the provisions outlined in the Bill and would categorically oppose any move away from a science-led, ecosystems-based approach. As my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) mentioned, there is only a vague reference to MSY in the Bill, and no clear roadmap on when and how this can be achieved. We would like to know whether Ministers are still committed to it as we leave the EU. We believe that stocks should at least meet this standard by 2020 and will seek to bring that into the Bill if the Government do not.

Will the Secretary of State respond to the concerns of environmental groups such as Sustain that are worried that the Bill’s objective to gradually eliminate discards is far weaker and slower than the EU’s commitment to end discarding completely within a set deadline? This is an important point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Paisley]

I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman represents his constituents in the way he wishes, and does so valiantly. He is of course entitled to do that and to have a different opinion on this matter, but we do have to leave the EU.

I want to address the issue of how the Irish Republic currently treats its neighbour, Northern Ireland. We have the voisinage agreement, which has not been raised today. It disgusts me that the Republic of Ireland keeps talking about not wanting a hard border in Northern Ireland and says that that would be a disgrace, yet has created what is effectively a hard border for County Down fishermen by breaking the voisinage agreement time and again. How is the Irish Republic going to treat Spanish fishermen when they are not allowed to fish in British seas after we leave the EU? How is it going to treat people from other member states? If it treats them in the way it has treated the people of Northern Ireland, those fishermen will feel a hard border within Europe also.

[Kate Hoey]

The Prime Minister talks about taking back control of our fishing, yet for the last two years, the Republic of Ireland has reneged on that agreement. We could have taken back at least that bit of control by saying, “Sorry, we’re not going to let your fishermen come into our area,” but the Government have not done so.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank the hon. Lady for making that point. We all know why the Republic of Ireland has decided to have this debate about the hard border: it has taken away from its having to address the important, hard questions that it should have been considering, such as what sort of trade relationship it should have with its biggest trading partner, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It did not want to address that matter; it wanted to hide behind the issue of the hard border to confuse things and camouflage the real, important issue.

I raise that matter because according to the European Union’s most recent report on fishing and agriculture, if the Republic of Ireland does not get a trade agreement with the United Kingdom, it will lose a staggering €5.5 billion from its agri-food and fishing industry. It has been reported that the study

“prepared for the European Parliament’s Committee on Agriculture and Rural Development lays bare the full potential impact of a hard Brexit and singles out the Ireland as one of the most badly hit member states.”

Yet what has that member state done? Has it tried to help in this? Has it tried to make the voisinage agreement work? No, it has done everything to penalise Ulster fishermen and Ulster farmers, and it should be ashamed of how it has behaved.

I hope that that sends the message to the Spanish and the French that that is how the Republic of Ireland is going to treat them, and about what sort of hard border it will have when it suits it. Little wonder that we have had so many problems with the Republic of Ireland over the past two years during this negotiating period.

The Fisheries Bill should lead to a revival of our coastal towns, as we have heard from across the Chamber today, and I hope that it really does. There is one way in which we could achieve that, and I appeal to the Secretary of State and the Minister to do this. During the transition period, will they use every effort possible, and every investment opportunity available, to invest in our coastal towns and put them in a state of preparedness by increasing their production ability and improving their harbours? I hope that we can do the same for Scotland as well. It is critical that we have harbours across our nation that are able to land the catches that will be available to us and that we have processing industries in place from Argyll and Bute in Scotland to Portavogie and Kilkeel. All those things should be put in place, and we can do that only during the transition period. If we are not ready then, we will not be ready when we leave the transition period. I hope that we actually do this.

There is a fear that the withdrawal agreement, the Fisheries Bill and the transition period, when they are taken together, all mean different things to different folk at different times. As the right hon. Member for Witham said, we need clarity in this debate. We have heard something of that today from the Secretary of State, but we need to hear more. We also need to ensure that all these things dovetail properly so that our fishermen receive the clarity of language and meaning that they are entitled to. We have already heard some discussion about whether article 6(2) actually means what it says. Will it, for example, penalise our fishermen if a backstop is brought into place? I believe that it will, although the Minister assures me that it will not. We need more certainty on that point. If the Secretary of State were a lawyer, he would not be recommending article 6(2) to a client, and if it will penalise our fishermen, we should not be accepting it for one of our key industries in Northern Ireland.

The Bill fails to account for crew shortages. The immigration White Paper is not yet ready, and we will be able to make sense of this matter only when we get that White Paper. I hope that we will hear words today that will address that issue and that we will know sooner rather than later what the immigration White Paper will say about addressing the key matter of crew shortages. In addition, Northern Ireland demands fairness in how it is treated in the sharing out of quotas between Scotland, Northern Ireland, England and Wales. It is essential that we get that fairness; otherwise, it could be catastrophic for how we behave internally as a nation.

I also regret that the Bill does not refer to an advisory council to help with management. Such bodies have proved most beneficial in Norway and Australia. There is also the key issue of our Crown dependencies. The European Union is able to take fish freely from the seas around our Crown dependencies, and we need to ensure that we have some sort of an agreement with Crown dependencies such as the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Finally, I pay tribute to the Minister as he prepares for his penultimate or final December Fisheries Council meeting. I wish him all the very best as he wishes bon voyage to Europe.

Leaving the EU: Fisheries Management

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend is absolutely every right in every particular. It was instructive that when the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation was interviewed on the radio earlier today, he made it clear how disappointed he was by the Scottish Government’s determination to keep us in the common fisheries policy.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Given the assurances that I and others were given over the past year right from the Prime Minister down that we would leave the common fisheries policy at the end of March 2019, who was actually negotiating this and did they really care about fishing? I would like the Secretary of State to answer this: did the officials actually argue that we could be left out right away and that it would be nothing to do with the implementation period?

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady asks a very direct question. That absolutely was the case. We had an immensely hard-working team of officials who negotiated incredibly hard on our behalf. They were in constant touch with Ministers every step of the way, and they encountered intransigence on the part of the EU, which was disappointing—I make no bones about it—but one thing that cannot be faulted is the hard work, mastery of detail and determination of the civil servants in DExEU and DEFRA to get the very best deal for Britain, and I will not hear a word said against them.

UK Fishing Industry

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Thursday 7th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the UK fishing industry.

It is a tradition that MPs debate the UK fishing industry at the beginning of December. Such debates give us the opportunity not only to raise matters relating to the UK industry as a whole, but to reflect on proposals for the following year’s total allowable catch, which are discussed at the December Council of Ministers. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting time for this very important debate, and for holding it in the Chamber, because we have on occasions had this debate in Westminster Hall.

Fishing is a dangerous practice, and my thoughts are with the fishermen and their families who have suffered loss and injury during the past year. I thank those in the rescue services, including the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, the coastguards and National Coastwatch Institution volunteers, for their selfless service to sea rescue. I also thank the Fishermen’s Mission and the Apostleship of the Sea for their work to support fishermen and their families at times of hardship.

The result of the EU referendum was well received by our fisher folk. Whoever I speak to says that they view the future with optimism. Indeed, Toms boatyard in my constituency informs me that it has many orders for vessels on its books. We have heard the Minister and the Secretary of State confirm on numerous occasions that, at the end of March 2019, the UK will leave the common fisheries policy. As a result, the Minister will be able to make decisions about the marine environment and catches of species without attending the meeting in Brussels and haggling with 27 other member states.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Lady reaffirm that, on the day we leave the EU, there will be no more negotiations and no more trading off, and that we will be out of the common fisheries policy so that we can decide for ourselves how we co-operate with other countries over our fishing? Will we take back control of our fishing on the day we leave?

[Mrs Murray]

As far as I am aware, when we leave the EU, we leave the common fisheries policy.

The UK has given notice that it will withdraw from the 1964 London convention, which gave some nations restricted access to the 12-mile limit. The UK 200-mile or median line limit is prescribed in the Fisheries Limits Act 1976 but, once we leave, the rules for the management and conservation of fish stocks, and indeed the amount of fish that can be taken, will be governed by the UN convention on the law of the sea, particularly articles 61 to 63. There is a clear distinction between UNCLOS and the CFP in as much as the UK will be free from the principle of equal access to a common resource on which the CFP is based.

Future Flood Prevention

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Neil Parish]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. We have tried to ensure that the report is not party political. Under the last Labour Government, the spending on flooding went down in dry times and up in wet times. The same thing happened under the coalition. We can argue about the figures, but they very much follow that same pattern. The report recommends learning from what has happened and putting in the proper resilience measures.

As I said, the report discussed the Dutch system. The idea would be to set up a regional flood and coastal board and then involve local authorities and local drainage boards, where they exist, and then landowners and businesses in order to have a broad catchment basis. As such, the Government should completely overhaul flood risk management, to include a new English rivers and coastal authority that is accountable for the delivery of flood protection. The Netherlands has a flood commissioner who is answerable to the Dutch Parliament and at a local level, which provides real focus. We may not need a full management system like that of the Dutch, but we can learn many things from it, such as how to alter the system through the Environment Agency and others to make it more answerable to Parliament, local authorities, drainage boards and landowners. I am convinced that, until we get a system that works from the top down and from the bottom up, we will not make the best use of our resources, because they will always be pressed. The commissioner would be able to hold those carrying out flood prevention work to account for their performance, because we have to get the best value for money.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

The report states that firefighters provide a vital “first-line service” to flooded areas. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government should go further towards making that a statutory duty? That has been asked for throughout the past 12 years, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Rob Marris) said. Why can we not do this? Scotland has done it, Northern Ireland has done it, and I think Wales is about to do it. Surely it must happen.

[Neil Parish]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. I think the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), who is behind her, will be making some good points about the fire service. The Committee took evidence from the fire services, and their work on flooding and the time they put in are not always recognised. The Environment Agency has large pumps that can move huge volumes of water over short distances, but the fire services can pump out people’s properties and deal with things on the ground. That is not recognised enough within the system, and there is work to be done on that. It will be interesting to hear the Minister’s reply to that point. By overhauling the way we manage the whole system, we can go a long way to minimising the devastating toll of flooding on local areas and local people.

Unfortunately, the Government’s response, which was published last month, was a little disappointing. It was not up to standard and addressed our key recommendations in only a cursory manner. We then asked for more information from Ministers in time for this debate, and my hon. Friend the Minister wrote to the Committee on 16 February. We welcome her commitment to record and report, from 2018-19 onwards, on how many schemes include natural flood management. That will be important, because we must ensure that more such management is carried out. We welcome that step, but we also welcome the commitment to refresh the national flood and coastal erosion management strategy for England, which we hope will reflect many of our inquiry’s findings.

The report recommended some actions and, to be fair to the Government, DEFRA has made progress on some of those issues, including on catchment scale approaches and embedding natural flood management more firmly in flood management plans. Local partnerships have also made progress on co-ordinating action in some river basins. I think the Government agree with the Select Committee that not all flood areas fit neatly into local authority boundaries and that we need to introduce catchment areas to hold the water. We will need to speed up the water in some areas to get it out to sea, and in other areas we will need to slow the water down by introducing leaky dams to hold the water. Some areas will need to be dredged or desilted—whatever language we want to use—to get the water flowing more quickly.