Jobcentre Plus Offices: Closure

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Monday 30th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Nokes]

As I indicated, this review is part of the prime contract established in 1998. It is nearly 20 years old and expires next year. All the proposals are a part of our making the best use of that contract and looking forward to what we need to provide now and in the future.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Two jobcentres in my constituency are being relocated to another jobcentre in my constituency. I need to understand why that decision was taken. We have no evidence or anything on our equality duty. I am very concerned that in Lambeth there is still a problem with gang culture, and young people in particular do not want to move from one area to another. Will the Minister please look at this again and talk to people in Lambeth before the decision is taken?

Pensions Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

My hon. Friend, as ever, is sharp on these matters. Amendment 1, which stands in his name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale), would delete clause 20. As the Chair of the Select Committee pointed out, that would do nothing for any of the overseas pensioners who have contacted us as their MPs; it would only remove the freezing for single-tier pensioners. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) understands that point, but I just want to be clear that if we voted for the amendment, all we would be doing is creating a new anomaly.

In a sense, the Chair of the Select Committee urged us to create that new anomaly. She said that we cannot defend the old one and that we should at least not carry on with it, but by doing that we would create a new anomaly. It is not just about which side of the Niagara falls one happens to live on, because single-tier pensioners would get indexation but nobody else would. I think that we all know what would happen: we would end up back in court. My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West referred, quite properly, to the extensive legal background to the issue, because it has been tried and tested by the International Consortium of British Pensioners in a range of courts, and all have found that in many cases what the Government are doing is implementing the law of the land as it has stood for decades.

My hon. Friends the Members for Worthing West and for North Thanet went to see the Prime Minister, and I am grateful to them for doing so. My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West referred to the reply he received today from the Prime Minister—I am pleased that he replied in advance of the debate—who stated that, having reflected on their arguments, he did not feel that a further review was appropriate at this point. Obviously, the context he referred to is the £700 million cost of indexing those pensions. My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet said that they were not asking for that to be backdated, but I speculate that as soon as we start indexing pensions and stepping them back up to where they would have been, the next court case will come when someone says, “Hang on a minute. Since you froze my pension I have missed out on X amount of money, so I expect that to be paid back as well.” These wedges have a knack of having thin ends. The cost of addressing this, at £700 million a year, is already substantial, but backdating would lead to far more substantial costs, which is difficult to justify at present.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

As another signatory to amendment 1, I am disappointed by the Prime Minister’s response. Will the Minister at least admit that he personally feels that this is a terrible injustice that will have to be addressed sooner or later, because the longer we leave it the more difficult it will be?

[Steve Webb]

I was asked about the issue when I appeared before the Select Committee, and I said that I sympathised with the pensioners we were talking about. I commented that my sympathy would butter no parsnips, meaning that it would not be worth a huge amount to the people involved, but I was vilified for using that phrase. I am not quite sure what to say, but I sympathise with the point that was made.

My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West gave an example of someone on a pension of a few pounds a week being topped up by the Australian Government. I do not know about the individual case, but in general if all we did was increase that pension, we would not necessarily increase the pensioner’s standard of living, because all that would do is take money out of what they get from the Australian Government. If we are concerned about their standard of living, increasing their pension in a means-tested system would not necessarily help.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) asked about giving women between 51 and 53 a choice, and when the shadow Minister was asked for his opinion, he said that it was that we should have a review. Obviously that plays to the gallery and sounds sympathetic, but it is not actually suggesting a solution. The complexity that the hon. Lady and I have talked about is not so much that we could not give people all the information, because we could, although it is complicated to put across; the problem is that nobody knows what their future is. A woman could choose to take the single-tier pension on day one, which would look like the right thing to do because she would get more than she does under the current system, but if her husband died the next day she would not get a derived widow’s pension and she would have made herself worse off as a result.

Romanians and Bulgarians (Benefits)

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with my hon. Friend. I would simply make the point that we have to deal with the reality. Our system does not deal with the problem of people coming here solely to claim benefits. We are always keen for people who have something to add to come to the UK and add their talents and skills to help us build the economy—that has always been the principle—but we do not agree that people should find an open door and a way of coming in just to take money to which they never contributed. That is the key issue. I agree with his point, but responsibility rests with those who used to defend, but now spend their time attacking, the very position they created.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Is not the simple truth that we cannot do anything much about any of these problems? The Secretary of State might come up with one or two little changes, but the only thing that will give us back control of our own borders is leaving the European Union.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As the hon. Lady knows, given my track record, I bow to nobody in my scepticism about many of these treaties. Under the Prime Minister, we have made it clear that, should my party get elected into government next time round, a very serious renegotiation will take place, with the option of an in-out referendum. Personally, I think that is exactly the right position. This is one of the key areas over which we want to get back a lot of control, and only my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has been bold enough to say we will do that, and test ourselves against that.

Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

That is exactly the problem. Many people are taking a hard look at the financial situation and asking, “Why would I return to work?” Surely that has to end.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

Although most of us agree that there should be a cap, does the Minister not accept that the situation is different for people living in different parts of the United Kingdom? Costs are different, so common sense says that the cap should be different.

[Chris Grayling]

I was going to come on to the Opposition amendments, but I should make the point that, although this debate is not simply about money, there is no getting away from the fact that their amendments would be costly. They would cut the savings that will be generated by £120 million in 2013-14 and £130 million in subsequent years.

I have great respect for the hon. Lady, and she makes an important point, but it would be altogether more credible if it had not been made at the very last minute. I do not ascribe the blame to her personally, but what we have heard from the Labour party has been quite extraordinary. Its latest effort, in today’s amendments, is to propose a regional benefit cap set by an independent body. The Opposition have tabled that idea and want to discuss it. However, did they table it on Second Reading? No. We had an extensive debate in Committee, which included many of the right hon. and hon. Members who are currently in their places, and I have no recollection of any mention of a regional benefit cap. We then had Report, and again I have no recollection of its being mentioned. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State led on Third Reading. I have asked him, and he cannot remember mention of a regional benefit cap. There were then the debates in the House of Lords, in which there was no mention of it. I believe that the first time we heard about it was on the “Today” programme about 10 days ago. Frankly, it is a proposal designed to get the Opposition off the hook.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Miller]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention; I understand the feeling with which he delivered it. I say clearly to him that we are saying that there is a great deal of time and considerable support for individuals who find themselves in difficult situations. We need to make sure that as many people as possible are able to remain where they are and that they are given the support to do that.

We have made considerable moves to make sure that the right support is in place, particularly for those with disabilities or foster care responsibilities. But I ask my right hon. Friend to consider how we would deal with what would be an enormous loss to the savings. Our basic problem is that there are 1 million spare bedrooms while about 250,000 families live in overcrowded accommodation. It is important for us to try to balance all those factors.

[Kate Hoey]

Would the Minister like to visit one or two people who I know in my constituency? It is only across the river. They are elderly people with one extra bedroom who have lived where they live all their lives. Their children have moved outside London because they cannot get housing here, but they occasionally visit with the grandchildren. This is just unbelievable—it is genuinely unbelievable that any Government would think of making someone move away from their family home. Will the Minister visit and explain the situation to those elderly people, who are so worried and upset by what has been suggested?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. Again, I understand the thoughtful comments that have been made. We are not making anybody move. The average reduction will be about £14 a week, but for many it will be about £12. Given the amount of notice that we are giving individuals and families, we want people to be able to consider the available options.

Pensioners and Winter Fuel Payments

Baroness Hoey Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Dr McCrea]

With the greatest respect, many of the people who are losing the winter fuel payment—for example, those who are over 80—will not know about the scheme that the hon. Gentleman mentions. Let us deal with reality, because these are the people who are going to suffer as a result of the coalition Government’s proposal.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Democratic Unionist party on proposing this debate, and I presume that there will be a Division of some kind so that we can show our views. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the saddest part of this cut, made for the sake of such a minimal amount of money, no matter what the economic position, is that it is the people over 80 who are really going to suffer?

[Dr McCrea]

I thank the hon. Lady for her comments, with which I wholeheartedly agree.

When I looked at today’s Daily Mail, I saw that the editor’s comment says—[Hon. Members: “Daily Mail?”] With the greatest respect, let me deal with the issue. It says that at a time when our people are enduring cuts at home, including to the winter fuel payment, UK taxpayers are ploughing an extra £300 million into an organisation such as Europe, with increases of “only” 2%. The Minister asked where the money would come from; I think we have identified where some of it could come from. Instead of paying it to Europe, we could be paying it to our elderly people—those over 80 years of age who are facing a choice between eating and heating. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) mentioned the money wasted on the referendum on the voting system, which was held to placate the minor party in the coalition. That money could have been spent to assist the elderly. It ill behoves those in the coalition to ask where the money would come from to deal with this situation, as they can certainly find it for others rather than the citizens of the United Kingdom.

These past three years have been devastating for the fuel poor within our society. Last winter in Northern Ireland, we faced the coldest December for over 100 years, with energy prices continuing to escalate, and we are entering a situation where the choice between heating and eating is a sad reality for many of our elderly constituents. In my own constituency of South Antrim, it has been estimated that as many as 42.4% of the population are living in fuel poverty, at least half of whom are pensioner householders. That is a significant figure and a worrying statistic.

Behind the statistics are human beings—elderly people within our society—who are suffering. Research carried out by Help the Aged in 2006 suggested that in winter many older people cope with the cold by staying in bed longer or wearing outdoor clothes indoors. The charity’s opinion that it is unacceptable in this day and age that anyone should have to resort to such measures in order to minimise heating bills will surely find support across this House. In its impact report in 2006, it stated:

“Winter is a difficult time for many older people. The cold, dark winter months leave many confined to their homes and for too many older people, those homes are cold, damp and inhospitable. Each year, older people living on inadequate incomes regard the approach of winter with dread”.

This year, with the decrease in their winter fuel payment, will certainly be no exception.

Living in a cold, damp home can have devastating effects on the health and social well-being of the elderly, rendering them isolated and susceptible to what should be avoidable illnesses such as asthma and stroke. Between 2002 and 2009, the number of winter deaths in Northern Ireland increased by 366%, and they are now at the highest level in western Europe. Experts agree that one of the root causes of this shocking statistic is fuel poverty.

When the then Government first introduced the winter fuel payment in the winter of 1997-98, they threw a vital and welcome lifeline to many thousands of pensioners across the United Kingdom. The decision to cut the winter fuel payment this year is shocking and people have reacted bitterly to the news. Only last month, a group of older people from Age Sector Platform in Northern Ireland travelled to Westminster to present the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), with a petition containing the signatures of almost 15,000 people who were united in opposition to the cut to the winter fuel payment this year. The Age Sector Platform campaign continues to receive support as each day passes, not only from elderly people but from younger people who are genuinely concerned about their parents and grandparents who had depended on this additional and welcome source of income. Never before has a lobby issue attracted such a high level of support in such a short space of time.

Members will be interested to know that in June, a Pensioners’ Parliament was held in Northern Ireland for the first time. There was overwhelming support for a motion calling on the Government to reverse their decision to cut the winter fuel payment this year and to look at ways of linking future payments to energy prices. A survey conducted in the run-up to the Pensioners’ Parliament also emphasised the need for action in this area. It showed that three out of four older people identified keeping warm in winter as a worry, making it the No. 1 concern. As politicians, we cannot fail to recognise that a strong message is being sent to us and to this House.

The proportion of homes in fuel poverty in Northern Ireland is three times greater than that in England. Households in Northern Ireland spend 43% more on energy than the UK average. Electricity prices in Northern Ireland are 29% higher than in January 2008 and 11% higher than in the rest of the UK. The price of home heating oil increased by more than 150% between 2003 and 2010, with 23% of that increase occurring in just the last year.

It is inconceivable that once again this winter our elderly will have to choose between heating their homes and putting food on the table. The Government, through their current course of action, are condemning many pensioners in my constituency to a winter of hardship and suffering. As the National Energy Action group has said:

“Fuel Poverty is killing those most vulnerable in our society annually.”

It goes on to say that it is a basic essential that

“all householders in Northern Ireland have access to affordable warmth.”

Unfortunately, without urgent action from the Government on this matter, that entitlement will be denied to many.

I will finish because I realise that many right hon. and hon. Members want to speak. I will leave Members with a direct quotation from a lady known simply as Mrs P, who contributed to the Help the Aged impact report:

“When I get up, because I can’t sleep and I come down, I put an old quilt round me, and I sit here for as long as I can, reading, until I get absolutely frozen. Then I have to put the fire on and I think to myself ‘Look at me wasting all this fuel.’”

Let us not waste a moment longer. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that the appropriate action is taken to prevent people such as Mrs P from falling even deeper into fuel poverty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

My hon. Friend makes a constructive point, which goes to the heart of the point that the Minister made earlier about the lack of take-up, particularly of means-tested benefits. That happens for a host of reasons, including that they are too difficult to take up, that people are too proud, and the lack of awareness among pensioners about the support that they can get to improve the quality of their housing. That is because many of the schemes are nationally designed and rolled out, and the information is not readily available. We can do a lot to push people in the right direction so that they can find help, such as through the project that my hon. Friend mentioned. All Members can play a constructive, championing role, because we are all community leaders. We need to pay our part in pointing pensioners towards the sources of help that they can access to tackle this growing problem.

[Kate Hoey]

The hon. Lady is right that we all have a responsibility to make people aware of such things. However, if she were an 89-year-old lady living on her own on a tiny pension, would she really think it her priority to have the huge disruption of someone doing all that work in her house? What she would actually want would be the money that she had last year, so that she could increase her use of electricity over the coming winter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

At the outset, let me thank all Members who have attended and contributed to the debate. My hon. Friends have agreed with most things, but there have been disagreements on some other issues. That, of course, is the mark of a healthy democracy. We appreciate the contributions of all Members to the debate.

On Friday this week, my constituent Bill Carson will lead 190 pensioners up the hill at Stormont into the Senate chamber for the second meeting of the Pensioners’ Parliament. It has been a very important Parliament meeting in Northern Ireland, which represents—across all constituencies and across the entire community—the feelings of pensioners and people in the aged sector who have issues to raise with the Government. They will debate the report published in June this year, which deals with all the matters that affect pensioners in Northern Ireland. It is a detailed report and lying behind it is a series of surveys carried out across all constituencies asking thousands of pensioners what issues affected them most and what key matters drove their lives today.

Consistently throughout this report, the pensioners came back to one thing, and one thing only—keeping warm this winter. Indeed, the response was significant. In the Fermanagh and South Tyrone constituency 83.6% of respondents said that the only thing and key thing they were worried about—their No. 1 priority—was keeping warm in winter and energy prices. In Belfast, it was the same: keeping warm in winter and energy prices were the main concern. In my own constituency of North Antrim, it was the same, as it was in Armagh, County Londonderry, County Tyrone and County Down. Right across Northern Ireland, the response was the same.

Nowhere is an island in political terms. The reality is that when a message is as consistent as that and comes back like a tsunami, a response must be made. This House has to face the gauntlet that has been thrown down. The Government must answer the question of what they are prepared to do when pensioners from all across the United Kingdom as well as Northern Ireland say that the issue affecting them most is the fact that they want to stay warm this winter. One of the easiest ways for the Government to help them to stay warm and assist them is through the winter fuel allowance.

As some people might say colloquially, “It’s a no brainer”—and it really is a no brainer. I hope that the Government are listening. We are not after argy-bargy with the Government—we can do argy-bargy with them and we have done it with them and other Governments in the past—because that is not what this issue is about. I believe that Members in all parts of the House care passionately about the needs of the elderly, so let us do something about that: let us address the issues simply and straightforwardly.

The average cost per household of heating oil and electricity in Northern Ireland this year will be £2,114. It is higher in Northern Ireland because more people there have to use heating oil. There is no way around that. All the other mechanisms—improving home efficiency, housing standards and so forth—are fine and dandy, and we will get there one day, but the fact remains that in rural areas 82% of people today rely on heating oil for their homes. The Government have a responsibility to address those people’s needs, and the winter fuel allowance provides them with the easiest, fairest and most consistent way of doing so.

It should be emphasised that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) said in his opening speech, this is a life and death issue. We can skirt around it and play about with it, but actions have consequences, and the actions that will be taken by those on either side of the House tonight will have their own consequences. I put it to Members that if they support the motion to which my right hon. Friend spoke so ably, they will save lives. When we cut out all the baloney and party politics, the bottom line is simple: lives will be saved if we keep this allowance. Whose side are we on? Are we going to save lives, or is there the potential for our actions tonight, and the actions of others in this place, to lead to the loss of more elderly lives?

I want to see energy efficiency in our homes, but, as has been pointed out by John Hills of the interim fuel poverty review group, those on low incomes cannot afford the investment that is required to make their homes energy-efficient. Even when the other available benefits are marshalled, it will take some time for us to get energy-efficient homes. I do not want to get sidetracked into all the other poverty issues, but those on low incomes face a triple whammy: the cut in the payments that we are discussing, the hike in energy costs, and the need for their energy-inefficient homes to be heated. We must address the needs of our elderly people as a matter of urgency.

The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) suggested an extension in the gas grid in Northern Ireland as a possible solution. We should love to see that happen, but there is not sufficient footfall for it to happen quickly. The rurality of Northern Ireland makes it more difficult to achieve. We will get there, but it will take time. This measure addresses the problem now, deals with the position as it is, and allows us to make progress.

As we were told by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North, £60 million of benefit is unclaimed, sometimes as a result of ignorance but sometimes as a result of stubborn pride, and whatever the Government are doing is not enough to encourage people to claim it. We have a solution which is already working, and which gives the Government an opportunity to continue to assist those who are in most need.

The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) was right to say that the Government would be judged not on the basis of what the previous Government had said and done, but on the basis of what they themselves would say and do. That is the bottom line for the Government tonight. What will they do about this issue? I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House and explaining what the last Chancellor did, what he should have done and what he could have done, but it was convenient enough for him to say all that. What he should say is the right thing: that we—the Government and the House of Commons—will maintain the winter fuel allowance at the higher rate to help pensioners in a way that really works, putting money in their pockets and allowing them to fill their heating tanks, keep warm, and spend the rest of their money on food.

[Kate Hoey]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me, and with many other Members, that if this is about a lack of money and about the economic situation—as the Government obviously feel that it is—we should simply say to the European Union, “We will not pay you this extra amount because we would much rather give it to our pensioners, our old people, than send it to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels”?

[Ian Paisley]

When I look at some of the Members who are sitting in other parts of the House, I think that this is another issue on which we might unite the House. The hon. Lady is right: where there is a will, there is a way.

The Minister of State spoke of a baseline, which was all about money. Let me extend the musical metaphor and say, “Your baseline was flat, sir, and your ear was not in tune with the needs of the community.” If the House is to be relevant, it must be in tune with the needs of our elderly folk out there. It must ensure that their needs are not only properly addressed, but met. The Minister wanted bells and bouquets for what the Government are doing. I do not mean to be dramatic, but the fact is that the cuts they are proposing will bring wreaths, and the bell will toll for the most vulnerable members of society. It is clear that this cut will not deliver the assistance to pensioners that they claim their other policies and benefits will deliver.

I was disappointed when the Minister told us—a little disingenuously, I think—that he had been in contact with the Social Development Minister in Northern Ireland. I am sure that that is true, but I understand that the conversation took place a matter of days ago. The Minister has been in office for a year and a half, and ours is the coldest part of the United Kingdom. I am not a cynic, but I am tempted to suggest that the conversation with the Social Development Minister may have been prompted by today’s debate. I hope that if it was, the Minister of State will note what has been said, and will deliver for the House and the people.

I do not think that we should be sidetracked into discussing other possibilities, such as what could be achieved through gas pricing and energy efficiency measures. We should deal with the issue that is on the Order Paper, which is straightforward and simple: will the Government maintain the winter fuel allowance as the public expect them to, and will they keep the promises that were made at the last election? I believe that that is what is fair and right.