Brexit: Environmental Enforcement Agency

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 8th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we will continue to implement EU legislation that is on the statute book. The whole purpose is to have certainty on the statute book. What we want with this new environmental body is to ensure that there is not a governance gap and that in our wish to enhance the environment, government and, potentially, other public bodies can be held to account. We think that that is very important indeed.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister tell us what discussions are taking place with the devolved Administrations, such that the new body can be co-designed and owned by all four Governments, given the importance of these areas to devolved responsibilities?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we are already working with devolved Administrations on which powers coming back from the EU should be devolved further. We want to explore whether Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland wish to take a different or a similar approach on this matter. If they wish to join what will be an English body, we would be pleased. On the other hand, they may decide to take a somewhat different approach. Our thrust in this is to collaborate so that if they wish to be part of this body, we would welcome that.

Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 (Disclosure of Revenue Information) Regulations 2015

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations represent the sixth occasion on which the data sharing powers in the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 have been used. They are designed to meet demands for the development of a single official house price index, as well as work being taken forward by the Census Transformation Programme to improve population and housing statistics. Statistics on house prices are of key importance to policymakers, including those setting interest rates, carrying out economic analysis and developing housing policies. Statistics on population and housing underpin resource allocation, policy formulation, decision-making, research and outcome monitoring across the public, private and voluntary sectors.

The feasibility work undertaken by the Office for National Statistics has provided the basis for identifying the information that is needed for research and analytical purposes. The data will be taken from information collected by valuation officers and held by the Valuation Office Agency for the administration of council tax. The information required for each residential property in England and Wales includes the following: the address of the property, the date of allocation to a council tax band, the date of the last inspection by the Valuation Office Agency, and property attributes such as total floor area and number of rooms. These details are required to create, for the first time, a single official house price index and to support the programme of research for the census and future provision of population statistics in England and Wales.

The ability to take forward work on a single official house price index will satisfy requirements identified by the National Statistician and provide a better basis for understanding and monitoring changes in house prices. The new index will be able to represent the prevailing market price of residential property at completion of sale, measure both house prices and house price inflation based on the price paid for transacted properties, have UK coverage, provide a consistent index to enable trend analysis, offer robust sub-regional estimates, and provide comparable estimates for subsets of transactions or properties.

Access to data on residential properties will contribute to the comprehensive programme of research, testing and evaluation being taken forward as part of the Census Transformation Programme. It is anticipated that the data will be used for the following purposes: to help develop an address register; to replace or supplement characteristics information traditionally collected in the census such as statistics on type of accommodation, number of rooms and central heating, and to produce new statistics such as information on the age of buildings.

The 2021 census will be online first. The address register will be central to a successful operation. The physical attributes of properties such as floor level and type of use will be invaluable in building the address register. Census statistics provide objective evidence to support decision-making processes and funding allocations across the public, private and voluntary sectors. For example, housing data from the census play a part in prioritising approximately £4 billion of annual capital spend by local authorities on housing. Furthermore, planning decisions on housing are frequently underpinned by the use of census data to ensure that optimal decisions are made based on local need.

In accordance with Regulation 4 of the instrument we are debating, the information may be used only by the Statistics Board, which is now referred to as the UK Statistics Authority, for its statistical functions. The ONS is committed to safeguarding all the data it uses to carry out its statistical functions, and perhaps I may assure noble Lords that full account has been given to specific statutory obligations, including those in the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007, the Data Protection Act 1998 and the Human Rights Act 1998. A privacy impact assessment for this proposed data share has been published. This confirms that the proposed disclosure is lawful and will not breach any statutory requirements in respect of the processing, transfer or handling of the required data. In all cases, the ONS complies with government standards for data transfer and handling. No data will be transferred to the ONS until both the Valuation Office Agency and the ONS are satisfied that appropriate arrangements have been agreed and confirmed in a data access agreement.

I hope that the need for and benefits of the proposed regulations are clear, and for those reasons I ask the Committee to support and accept them. I beg to move.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I must thank the Minister for that. I tried very hard to get hold of the Statistics Board to ask it to send me information and completely failed to get anything from it, so I am delighted by the clarity with which he explained these regulations. This is a slight but sensible measure, which we are happy to agree to. As he said, it will allow Valuation Office Agency to pass house price data to the UK Statistics Authority. We are supportive of any better use of government data because we understand the benefits that can bring. We certainly need to be able to draw upon as accurate a picture as we can of the housing market, partly because of the incredibly important role it plays in the lives of a huge number of people but also because the market can be dysfunctional.

I shall ask the Minister a couple of questions. He answered quite a few as he was going through, but there are a couple left. In his introduction, he mentioned some of the safeguards about privacy. Clearly, data anonymity is crucial. The last thing homeowners want is any data being allow out there which would enable them to be identified. Although the Minister said there would be agreements, I was not quite clear what will be in them that will ensure that the information remains anonymous, particularly if the data sent over, when combined with other data, could become more identifiable than when they exist on their own. Perhaps he will be able to confirm that there is absolutely no way in which anyone’s data could be identifiable.

We are aware of the importance of the housing market to the lives of people who live in the homes and to the macroeconomic health of the nation. We know, as I am sure the Minister knows, that housebuilding is probably at its lowest level since the 1920s. If we are returned to office, we are committed to increase housebuilding to 200,000 a year, so we will need to get this right before we build all those new houses. We are therefore very interested in the supply side of the housing market. One of our criticisms of the Government’s current measures is that they have been aimed at the demand side of the housing market rather than supply side, which might fuel inflation rather than housebuilding. Therefore, these attempts to get better data on existing housing have to be to the good because they will help a concentration on the supply side of housing.

We also need, as I think the Minister suggested, government policy to keep a close eye on supply and prices. The future housing market turning into a bubble and collapsing is something on which we need better data, and I think we probably did not have it at the time of the last recession. It sounds as if this will help us towards that. Indeed, the lack of a definitive official index for house prices has been a problem. We have tended to have to rely on information provided by private companies, such as Halifax or Rightmove, or partial government statistics, so a much better official index will be of considerable use. We note that when the consultation on this measure took place, the majority welcomed the proposal for a single house price index and the clarity it would bring to the use of house price statistics. We agree strongly with that, but perhaps the Minister can say whether other datasets such as the Land Registry’s price-paid dataset will be used alongside this or is it going to be subsumed in it? I think, from what he said, it was going to be subsumed, but maybe he could just confirm that for me.

The Minister also said that this is part of the process of looking at whether part of the census could be undertaken electronically. While I completely understand the idea that this might help the address register for the census, I was slightly less clear on how the details regarding the amount of floor space, if it is unrelated to the number of people living there, were going to play a part in the census. I assume the aim is not to improve the comprehensiveness and quality of the census, but if it is, perhaps the Minister can spell out how those improvements could be made.

The population and housing statistics are obviously subject to an enormous amount of churn so again this index is going to be welcome, though it may have some of the statisticians running to keep up with change. We wish them luck in that. We support the statutory instrument and hope that it will contribute to a more accurate and comprehensive house price index, which will therefore be—as the Minister indicated—of much greater to use to policymakers in the future.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her broad support for these measures. She is absolutely right that these are sensible measures and it is very important—to use her words—that we make better use of data and create an accurate picture. These regulations are designed to ensure that. The noble Baroness is absolutely right to emphasise the importance of safeguards. The data access agreements will specify that the information is to be used for statistical purposes only. The ONS is not authorised to disclose personal information—indeed, that is a criminal offence under Section 39 of the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007. The safety and security of personal information is of paramount importance to the Office for National Statistics. It has stringent procedures in place to protect confidentiality and to safeguard the security of personal information on addresses.

As I have said, the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 contains a confidentiality obligation, with a potential criminal sanction for revealing or sharing personal information unlawfully. Anyone found guilty of unlawfully disclosing information will be liable to a term of imprisonment of up to two years, a fine or both. The body responsible is absolutely clear about the need for safeguards, and I emphasised the importance of that in my introductory words.

The noble Baroness also asked about the Land Registry. The Land Registry’s price-paid data will be used in the new index, so it will be subsumed into that. The noble Baroness is absolutely right about formulation of policy. The whole purpose of this is to help us with policy formulation. I am not going to engage in trading statistics on housing, but clearly the housing of people who live in this country is of huge importance, and a range of housing units needs to be available for people around cities and in rural areas. I feel very strongly about rural housing and that villages should continue to be vibrant.

How will all this help and support the census in 2021? Census field operations are underpinned by the address register, with coverage checks and quality assurance. Details of property attributes will inform design and processing arrangements, particularly through requiring the identification of mixed-use properties: for example, obviously, shops where there are also dwellings, flats and other properties with restricted access, and communal establishments such as nursing or care homes.

The noble Baroness asked about the details of floor space and how that will play a part in the census. Details of total floor area will be provided to inform work on the house price index. The size of a property, for instance, influences its price, which is one reason why that was included. I recall from filling in census forms before—if I remember rightly—that the number of rooms has always been part of the census on property and that certain rooms should be included and others not.

I will obviously look at Hansard to see whether there are any outstanding points, but I think that I have covered all the issues raised and I hope that the Committee will agree to these regulations.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I add my thanks to the Minister for tabling this amendment, to which we have added our names. I also congratulate my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport, who argued persuasively both on Report and today. Given the move from four to 10 signing places, we really did not need the lengthy period of eight weeks. I hope that, for costs and other reasons, there will now be less need for people to apply for postal votes, and it will be easier for people to arrange to meet one of the signing places. While we would not want to rush the petition, we think that both the MP and the constituents deserve to have as swift a result as possible so that the MP is not taken away from their normal parliamentary duties for an inordinate period, as has been outlined by my noble friend Lord Howarth. We see six weeks as being an improvement on eight and look forward to this amendment passing shortly.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this has been a short but important debate. I am glad that we have been able to reach what I think is a sensible arrangement, after compelling arguments. I beg to move.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 10th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I thank the noble Baroness for that. In return, I send our good wishes for his rapid return—not necessarily to voting, perhaps, as we never approve of the way in which he votes, but we like to hear his voice. He has our good wishes for a speedy recovery.

The principle of reviewing this new part of our democratic institution, which could be a significant part, is right. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will say something positive—although he never says anything positive to me—about the possibility of a proper review of this measure, once it has been put into use.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Government are fully persuaded of the merits of post-legislative scrutiny as a general principle. There are frequently valuable lessons to be learnt for the future, and the Government are always happy to listen to and consider recommendations arising from such reviews.

As noble Lords have said, the Government have included review clauses in several of their Acts this Parliament, including ones affecting constitutional or electoral matters. However, the Government have some reservations in this case. My noble friend’s amendment commits to a review after five years. That is a reasonable period in some respects, but it is of course by no means certain that there will have been a recall petition by that point. In fact, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, was getting very close to that. A review of an Act which has not had the opportunity to operate as intended would be severely limited in its usefulness. It would be unable to consider the operation of the recall process, and its conclusions would have to be to some extent hypothetical.

Recall does not have to be regularly used for the power to be a good addition to democracy. Indeed, as I have said before—and I hope noble Lords will understand my good intent—the Government fervently hope that no petition is triggered because Members’ conduct is of the highest standard expected. I am sure that noble Lords would not suggest that Parliament’s disciplinary powers should lapse simply because Members’ behaviour does not cause them to be used.

It is, of course, open to Parliament and to the Government of the day to review legislation on their own initiative, without a statutory requirement to do so. It would be entirely appropriate for a parliamentary committee to conduct its own post-legislative scrutiny at such a point as it felt that it would be useful to do so. I am sure that the Government of the day would be more than happy to reflect on any considerations that might be brought forward in that case.

I hope that we will not have a recall because the standards of Members of Parliament are very high, so will not need a review. The Government are not happy about my noble friend’s amendment and we ask him to withdraw it, because in this case we are not convinced that it would be of the use that we know he intends. If there has not been a trigger, it would not be the sort of valuable review that we would like were we to have reviews. I hope that he feels able to withdraw his amendment.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 10th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I am going to be a little more generous than the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and thank the Minister for listening to the debate on the amendment that we moved in Committee. He will not be surprised that we are delighted with this. Not only is it the right answer in itself, but I also think that it will reduce the demand for postal votes. That will save the resources of the petition officer—their time, their staff and their money—because there will be less need for people to apply for postal votes. So we are very happy to support this government amendment.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the generous comments that have been made. As I said, this has come forward because it makes practical sense. If there is an unfortunate instance of recall, it is important that constituents, wherever they are from—the islands or the large constituencies—have the ability to sign if they so wish. So far as my noble friend Lord Norton is concerned, as I said at the beginning, our basis for the maximum of four signing places was because that was what the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee had recommended. If I have further particulars on that, I will of course write to him, but that was the basis for four. However, what has happened in the other place and in your Lordships’ House has ensured that sense has prevailed, so I commend the amendment to your Lordships.

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[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport has made a good case for considering whether and why eight weeks is somehow the perfect period for the petition to run. We remain unclear on the question that my noble friend Lord Hughes raised as to why the Government chose this period—a question to which they never gave a clear answer in Committee. As I said before, two weeks, as it was then, did seem too short a period if it was to include the run-up to the signing period—in other words, the time to get the signing issues out and for everyone to get to know about them as well as the signing period itself.

The Electoral Commission thinks eight weeks is, in its words, a relatively “long signing period”. Certainly, in democratic terms, two months is a long period for an MP to be effectively out of the Commons and fighting to retain his or her seat. However, the period does have to be sufficient for people to know about it, to hear the debate and to come to a view, and three weeks probably is too short if it is to cover the whole of the public awareness period—I do not like the word campaign—as well as the actual signing period. Amendment 12, as it stands, might not be the right one, but it will be very interesting to hear whether the Government can give us any reason why they chose eight weeks and, even more interestingly, whether they are willing to consider some movement on this.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for tabling this amendment; we have had a very interesting debate. I appreciate that an eight-week period may seem lengthy, but the main reason why it was considered appropriate is that we thought it was important that constituents are given sufficient time to consider any available information from the Member of Parliament or from those concerned with the petition. I very much hope, as I said before, that we do not have these recall petitions. I hope and expect that the behaviour of Members of Parliament will be of the highest standard, and that this will not happen.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 19th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I will take advice on precisely the answer to that so that I am most helpful to the noble Lord. I do not think that there is any point in me flannelling on when there may be a distinct reply to help the noble Lord.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I have to say that I have never heard the Minister flannelling on. I thank him for his reply. However, I have some problems with it. I think that the answer to my noble friend’s question about who keeps an eye on the non-accredited campaigners is clear: there is no one to do it. I understand the intention was that people should be able to spend up to £500 below the radar. He has called in aid, I think, the Electoral Commission. I really have to take issue with the Electoral Commission’s full submission for today. It keeps on saying, and has said it on this amendment, that these are intended to be localised events. I worry about the Electoral Commission if it really thinks that that is what a recall will be. It has to get real. Particularly as regards the first of these, it will not be a localised event. They will be extremely high profile. Michael Crick will be there and all of us will be there working for or against. There will be an enormous amount of scrutiny. The Electoral Commission has to get real about the fact that they will not be very localised. I am worried particularly about those that are under £500. As I have said, the £50 figure was probing but I wonder whether £150 or £200 is not a better figure.

I think that the Minister used the word “content”, and I have to correct him. The content of the material will not be scrutinised, it will only have to have the imprimatur, “printed and published by”, on it. That is the only requirement. More than that, those spending less than £500 are absolutely free of any requirements about donations. They can be taking money from Hong Kong or anywhere else without having to declare it. Even if there was someone to look over them, it would still be completely legal for them to do this. If I have understood this right, they can spend up to £500 with donations coming from anyone because they do not come under the PPERA rules at all. Therefore they break all our normal rules on this.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 19th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I found the travels of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, around the highways and byways of Richmond Park interesting. When this Bill was first thought of, we were thinking it was going to be a Sheffield Hallam one with the NUS bussing in its students. So we have come further south from that early discussion.

Amendment 51 is interesting. As I said earlier, although I think the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, was not in his place at the time, the amendment could answer the queries that I had raised about whether the process is secret or effectively open. It is another way of dealing with that by allowing people to vote against and not just in favour of a recall by-election. It would certainly be a clearer option for electors who know that they have a choice. They can express that choice, having thought about the issue.

It is not, of course, what the Bill proposes so I am not able to offer support for it, particularly as it would negate a by-election simply if 10% voted against. You could have 30% wanting a by-election and 10% against. Under the amendment as drafted, the 10% would trump the 30%, which I am sure would not be a desirable outcome.

With regard to the increase to 20%, what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester was saying was interesting. From that, I might take the other view; if you get the 20% you have lost a fifth of your electorate. Effectively there will be no by-election. After having 20% against them, no one will possibly contest the by-election; so there would be a by-election, but not with the MP there. The purpose of the Bill, as it has been drafted, was that there should be the possibility of a by-election at which the MP refights that seat and tests the issue as to whether, despite whatever they have been found guilty of, they are nevertheless able to represent their constituents. My concern about the 20% is that it undermines the difference between a by-election and a recall petition.

I acknowledge that the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee recommended 20% but I do not think that we should pray that in aid given that it wanted no sight of this Bill whatever. I look forward to the Minister’s comments. The interesting thing is why on earth 10% was chosen and not 5% or 15%. The problem of 20% is that it effectively gets rid of the idea of having a by-election that the MP would fight. In that sense, it goes against the spirit of the Bill.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate and I have listened carefully and seriously to all the points that have been made. I know I am repeating this point, but it should not be forgotten that for a recall petition to be opened in the first place a Member of Parliament would have had to have committed serious wrongdoing and to have met one of the three conditions in the Bill. All of your Lordships know very well what those three triggers are.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, raised the concern that a future Parliament might do this or that with other triggers. We obviously cannot bind what another Parliament might wish to do. This Bill before us is about three triggers which involve serious wrongdoing. That is the right balance. That is the point which the other place had come to as well. We believe that reaching the figure of 10% of constituents signing the petition would show a significant level of support for a recall and would trigger a by-election in which the sitting MP could stand.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I apologise for leaping to my feet too quickly. I was going to say that in over an hour of debate the amendments have found no favour in the Committee, other than from those who added their names to them, and I will not alter that in what I say now. Having heard the name of Bernadette Devlin, I am going to share a secret with the small gathering in this Chamber. I was not actually born blonde. It may surprise noble Lords to hear this, but I looked very much like Bernadette Devlin. When walking around London I was for ever being stopped and I had interesting discussions. It is a long time since that has come to mind.

It is clear that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has devoted a great deal to these amendments but, in the words of the last two noble Lords to have spoken, they are, if not dangerous, certainly full of major problems. The amendments would catapult relatively minor misdemeanours well above our legal means of resolving alleged wrongdoings—and that starts with only 500 signatures. I could certainly get that number on a Saturday morning in busy Kentish Town. That would bring an MP not simply to the police, to the DPP or even to a magistrates’ court to see whether there was a case to answer, but up and over all of that to a judge, possibly on the basis of no evidence—simply following an allegation. The allegation would not have to be tested or proved at any level, nor would any suspicions have to be verified. Indeed, the issue could be entirely without merit and without evidence. It could be based on mistaken identity. Moreover, if the complaint against an MP is not criminal, why on earth would it go before a judge-led hearing? I assume it would not be criminal because the amendments state that the hearing would,

“be suspended if any of the matters under consideration are the subject of criminal investigation or criminal proceedings”.

I think that means that we are talking about something which is not even criminal, yet it would go to a higher level than things that would normally go to a magistrates’ court and be tested by a presenter or a prosecutor. I really do not understand why this is being taken to that level. What the amendments will do is up the ante, if you like, of misdemeanours to above the criminal, and straight before not just a single judge but a double-judge hearing. As a former magistrate, I find that quite difficult to understand. We were able to hear many cases of criminal wrongdoing and even indictable offences to see whether there was a case to answer. However, there would be no such filters on this.

There are also big questions which have already been touched on as to rules of evidence, legal representation, hearsay evidence, cross-examination and the disclosure of previous convictions. These are big issues. To bring someone in front of a court—the word “trial” has been used—on the basis of nil evidence is extremely worrying. The amendments would even force witnesses to attend, at the risk of being in contempt of court. As a magistrate, I do not believe that I had the right to do that. This is a heavy sledgehammer to use on what might be a completely unproven allegation, and certainly something of a non-criminal nature which otherwise would be dealt with separately.

What is this misconduct? If it is not a crime and it is not being dealt with by the police, what is it? Is it non-appearance, because people have said that they would not come? Is it about an MP being in Barbados for the past 11 months, although in the current weather I would quite understand if they were over there? What is the nature of bringing Parliament into disrepute? I see no merit at all in these amendments, and the speeches so far probably concur with that. I trust that we will not see them back at the Report stage.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, yet again we have had a thought-provoking and thorough debate. I acknowledge the work that my noble friend has devoted to this matter. As your Lordships know, the amendments are a modified version of those brought forward in Committee and on Report in the other place. The underlying principle behind involving the public in initiating the recall process for reasons of misconduct did indeed attract some support in the other place. Although I know that I shall not receive the approval of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, it is interesting to see that these amendments were rejected in the other place by 271 votes to 64.

My noble friend’s Amendment 2 would remove the first and second recall conditions yet retain the third. The proposed new clauses create the concept of a parliamentary misconduct hearing, which would involve two judges examining the behaviour of an MP if the hearing received a petition alleging certain forms of misconduct that had been signed by 500 constituents. The parliamentary misconduct hearing would not be required to determine guilt to a criminal standard but rather whether parliamentary misconduct had on the balance of probabilities taken place. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, highlighted this.

Turning to some of the detail of the amendments, the number of petitioners necessary for the parliamentary misconduct hearing to consider the allegation has been proposed at 500. The aim is to give the public some involvement in initiating the process. Of course, if it is alleged that a criminal offence has been committed, it takes only one person to make a complaint for that to be investigated by the police, for instance. Arguably, if the complaint is valid it should be taken forward regardless of the number of complainants. On the other hand, as a test of public will, is the number of 500 constituents perhaps too low? My noble friend has explained in detail the behaviour that the parliamentary misconduct hearing is being asked to judge. I am not going to outline that further, given the time.

Criminal matters, which could include bribery and misconduct in public office, as well as offences relating to parliamentary expenses, would be investigated by the police and adjudicated by the courts. However, my noble friend proposes that criminal convictions and prison sentences should not be a trigger for recall, except for offences regarding parliamentary expenses. The trigger my noble friend proposes is a finding by the hearing that on the balance of probabilities the misconduct took place—a lower standard of proof than that used in criminal cases.

Matters that fall under the Code of Conduct can be examined by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, the Standards Committee and the House of Commons, which can order suspension. The proposals in the Bill are that a suspension of more than 10 sitting days could trigger recall. My noble friend’s amendments would not prevent investigation by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner or the Standards Committee or suspension from the House taking place; they would simply decouple it from recall. So there could be a parallel process of investigation by the commissioner, the committee or the House, and a parliamentary misconduct hearing—all of which, of course, could reach different views.

I turn to parliamentary privilege, which was first raised by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport. In addition to the proposed parliamentary misconduct hearing set out in these amendments, there are the serious concerns that noble Lords have quite widely expressed vis-à-vis the interaction with parliamentary privilege. For the parliamentary misconduct hearing to have any real effect, it is likely that the judges appointed to determine misconduct would need to question proceedings in Parliament and would need to examine issues that are covered by exclusive cognisance; that is, that Parliament has sole jurisdiction over its own affairs, including standards and discipline. As the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, identified, that would be contrary to the protection afforded by the Bill of Rights; for example, the provisions in the amendments would give a role to the hearing to examine breaches of MPs’ conduct, which would impinge on exclusive cognisance.

It is also proposed that the parliamentary misconduct hearing would be able to look at issues such as cash for questions, attendance in the House and abusing or bringing into disrepute the office of a Member of Parliament—all matters which are to some extent likely to be covered by privilege. The provisions also set out standards for Members of Parliament by defining parliamentary misconduct as non-attendance in a six-month period. However, the amendments are silent on the interaction with parliamentary privilege.

Of course, Parliament does possess the ability to allow a hearing to deal with matters that fall under its exclusive cognisance, and to question proceedings in Parliament. However, if we are to take such a momentous decision, we should be fully aware of what we are doing, and there needs to be an overriding reason to do so. The problem the Government face is not being convinced that either of these conditions has been met. The type of wrongdoing covered by this alternative trigger already triggers a recall petition under the conditions in the Government’s Bill. The triggers in the Government’s Bill, whether noble Lords like the Bill or not, are intended to fit in with the disciplinary and constitutional arrangements of our Parliament.

I turn to the relationship with criminal prosecution. While the amendment contains a provision to allow for the suspension of a hearing in the case of a criminal investigation or criminal proceedings, it may be that these would be initiated only due to testimony in or judgment of the hearing. In the case of alleged criminal misconduct, if the defence had already been rehearsed before a parliamentary misconduct hearing, or the hearing’s finding was considered prejudicial to the MP’s presumption of innocence, it may not be possible for the MP to have a fair trial. The fact that an MP had to answer allegations in a parliamentary misconduct hearing could prevent him or her from facing criminal prosecution for misconduct that amounts to a criminal offence.

I am very conscious that my noble friend has devoted a lot of time and work to putting forward his amendments, given some of the background to why we are where we are. I hope your Lordships will understand that we feel there are very serious matters, which your Lordships and I have endeavoured to outline, that are of sufficient concern that I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

Undoubtedly there will be cases and jurisdictions where we would be very content to take that, but there will be others—sadly, probably more around the world—where we would query both the jurisdiction and the sentencing. I do not feel that making it automatic, as this amendment would, should be supported. As has been made clear, Amendment 4 conflicts with the current situation in that, if I have understood it correctly, it would trigger recall following a year’s imprisonment. As my noble friend accepts, that was not its aim; it is a probing amendment. I differ from my noble friends Lord Foulkes and Lord Soley in that they want to keep the decision only with the House of Commons, whereas we have supported the proposal that there are circumstances where it should go to the electorate. Giving the electorate a say following someone’s imprisonment—possibly for a very serious offence—is something that we have supported and continue to support.

The other difficulty that I have with what I understand came from the Scottish Law Society—I am sorry if I offend it by not supporting its amendments—is the idea that if an offence, not a conviction but an offence, was declared beforehand, that will be enough to enable someone to escape the possibility of a recall petition. We could have someone saying before being elected an MP, “Well, it is true that I have been arrested for a bit of a punch-up”. That is declaring the offence. However, the conviction may take place sometime afterwards, by which time we discover that actually he had broken his wife’s arm in three places, kicked in the door, set fire to the carpet and broken her favourite records, but that was all a minor punch-up. I do not think that we would want to excuse someone just because they have said, “Oh, I am in trouble with the law”. The word “offence” is used rather than “conviction”. I do not think that there should be letting off at that stage.

As my noble friend says, these are on the whole probing amendments and useful for that, but I do not think that we should move to allow another jurisdiction automatically to trigger a recall in this country.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, perhaps before I turn to the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I may speak to the government amendments, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, has put her name.

Amendment 15 gives effect to the opposition amendment from the other place. Clause 2 contains further detail to clarify the sentences and orders that would meet the first condition under which an MP would be subject to a recall petition—that is, where an MP has been convicted in the UK of an offence and is sentenced or ordered to be imprisoned or detained and the appeal period has expired without that being overturned.

As introduced in the House of Commons, subsection (1) ensures that offences committed before the MP became an MP can trigger the opening of a recall petition, as long as the conviction and sentencing take place after the day on which the MP became an MP—but only if the offence is committed after the day on which Clause 1 comes into force. That would rule out historic offences triggering a recall.

The House of Commons was clear that it wished historic offences to be caught as well, as long as the conviction took place after the Bill came into force and after the MP became an MP, and voted with that intention, passing an amendment tabled by the Opposition Front Bench in the Commons by 236 votes to 65.

A pair of amendments was tabled to give effect to that intention: a substantive amendment and a paving amendment. Unfortunately, however, only the paving amendment was actually made, which had the effect of deleting the words “the reference” at the start of Clause 2(1) so that it does not now make sense. The substantive amendment was not made, so the Government tabled Amendment 15 to give concrete effect to the will of the House of Commons.

Amendment 20 is a minor and technical change to the definition of “appeal” in Clause 3(6). The amendment is to reflect that the Scotland Act 2012 amended the appeals regime so that certain devolution appeals in Scotland that deal with compatibility with EU or human rights law are dealt with under Section 288AA of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, rather than the provisions currently listed in the Bill. Making express reference to this section provides certainty that such appeals would be covered.

Clause 22 is a technical clause which defines the interpretation to be given to key words and phrases in the Bill. Amendment 74 would alter Clause 22 to remove any possible ambiguity about the definition of the word “quashed” in relation to overturning a conviction on appeal by replacing it with a phrase making clear,

“that there is no longer a conviction”,

in relation to the first and third conditions for recall. This would cover the scenario where a sentence is replaced with an absolute or conditional discharge, meaning that it is no longer legally to be considered a conviction, as well as the case where the conviction is directly overturned.

I turn to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. He rightly said that they were paving amendments, and they are of considerable interest. I was intrigued particularly by Amendment 3, which would mean that if an MP were to be convicted outside the United Kingdom, the MP would also be subject to a recall petition process. As the noble Lord mentioned, the Law Society of Scotland raised that issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred to a number of the difficulties with such a proposal. Outside the United Kingdom, Parliament has no control over what acts amount to criminal conduct or when custodial sentences are imposed. Therefore, we cannot predict that a recall petition would be appropriate in all circumstances where an MP is given a custodial sentence outside the United Kingdom.

Recall of MPs Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My noble friend Lord Dubs has, as usual, set out eloquently why he has sought to bring the outcome of election court proceedings and the new ones in the Bill more into line. His arguments were echoed by my noble friends Lord Soley and Lord Grocott, and by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. It might indeed seem very odd to a member of the public if an MP imprisoned for a serious drink-drive offence faced only a recall petition and a possible by-election, which he could then contest, whereas a different court—an election court—has the ability to exclude an MP from Parliament altogether, and even to ban that MP from contesting the seat at a by-election.

We therefore welcome this as a probing amendment, partly to give the Government the opportunity to spell out what consideration they have already given to such issues, what discussions they have had with the electoral court, and whether they are satisfied that these two mechanisms have a degree of consistency that is easily explicable both to Members of the other House and to the public. We look forward to hearing the Minister’s views.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his probing amendment and the debate that we have had on it. As he said, his amendment would introduce a further recall trigger where an election court finds a person or persons guilty of illegal practices in respect of a parliamentary election. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, rightly asked what consideration has, and could be, given to this suggestion.

Under the Representation of the People Act 1983 the result of an election can be challenged by any eligible person by lodging a petition with the relevant election court. The election court will first consider whether the MP was fairly returned. If the court, upon hearing the evidence, finds the candidate or other persons guilty of corrupt or illegal practices, it will produce a report. Any report produced will state the names of all persons who have been proved at the trial to have been guilty of corrupt or illegal practices, and it will be laid before the Director of Public Prosecutions.

A candidate or other person reported as guilty of corrupt or illegal practice shall not be able to: register as an elector or vote in any local government or parliamentary election held in the United Kingdom; be elected as an MP; or hold any elective office. In the case of a person reported as guilty of a corrupt practice—for example, personation—these incapacities will apply for five years. A person found guilty of an illegal practice—for example, double voting—will be subjected to these incapacities for three years. The incapacities will apply from the date of the report, and the person must vacate any elected seat held.

Under the noble Lord’s amendment, if an election court found that illegal practices by a person or persons had resulted in the election of an MP, but the MP was not found guilty of any offence, this would automatically trigger a recall petition. However, under Section 167 of the Representation of the People Act 1983, an MP would automatically be guilty if his agents were found to have engaged in corrupt or illegal practices during the election, and would therefore have to vacate his seat.

If the noble Lord believes that an MP should not automatically be found guilty because of the actions of others in securing his seat, that would require an amendment to the Representation of the People Act. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, but it is the Government’s view that the system and penalties that we currently have in place under that Act are sufficient. For that reason, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. I am most grateful for the comments that have been made. Although I cannot promise to bring anything more back, this has been a very interesting debate.

Unsolicited Telephone Communications Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Friday 8th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

My Lords, I make it clear from the outset that the Government very much welcome and appreciate the efforts and concern that my noble friend has shown in highlighting this important issue. I am sure that, for many consumers, my noble friend reflects the feeling that something more needs to be done to deal with this problem. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, also raised the points about consumers and the redress and improvements we all seek. The Bill is welcome in that it is a timely opportunity for further discussion.

The resolution of this issue is more complex than at first sight it might appear. It requires industry, government and consumers to collaborate if there is to be any chance of success. Unsolicited telephone marketing nuisance calls are certainly topical and have been the focus of vast amounts of correspondence, many Parliamentary Questions, a Select Committee inquiry in the other place and an inquiry led by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Nuisance Calls, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, whose report was published last week.

These reflect the clear fact that, despite the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003 being in place, unsolicited marketing nuisance calls are a source of great annoyance and inconvenience for consumers. Indeed, when I pick up a message which starts, “That’s right!”, I am pretty certain that it is not. I also may well ignore being instructed to press a certain number to get further information. To many, however, and especially the elderly and more vulnerable, as all noble Lords have said, this causes confusion and great anxiety. I wish that there were a magic wand that could be waved to eradicate the problem but, sadly, that is simply not possible.

I assure noble Lords that we are absolutely determined to take action on this issue. That is why the Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative Industries has initiated and led a serious of meetings over the past 18 months which have brought together the key interested parties to press for change. Unsolicited calls and texts are a problem, but we have to be careful that, in dealing with this issue, we do not harm the direct marketing industry, which is a legitimate industry that provides employment and opportunities in support of our economy. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, made precisely that point. Direct marketing can be beneficial for consumers—for example, calls from telecoms or energy companies advising on better deals or tariffs potentially save consumers money. An opt-in register, as in the Bill, would severely constrain such activities. We must therefore consider the matter carefully.

What action are the Government taking? From those meetings, we now have clearer and improved guidance and information for consumers, to help ensure that they are aware of where to go to register complaints on regulators’ websites. I realise that, of course, to many of the elderly this may not be an option, but this information is now more consistent and readily available. The consumer organisation Which? has also been engaged in the meetings and has developed a useful mechanism on its website by which consumers are automatically directed to the right place to access information as well as to make complaints.

On enforcement, we have ensured that the monetary penalties that the Information Commissioner’s Office and Ofcom can use have been increased and, equally importantly, used more frequently to fine companies which break the regulations. We have made clear in tasking regulators that, through robust action, they must send a clear signal that those who flout the rules will be caught. We are pleased that, since January 2012, more than £2.3 million has been issued in fines and would want to see more.

Persistent offending companies are also now named and shamed on the Information Commissioner’s Office website, so that those who engage in poor practice are made known to the public, as informed consumers are safer consumers. There is also greater collaboration between regulators, sharing knowledge and expertise to improve compliance throughout. However, we are fully aware that much more needs to be done. That is why our future proposals for nuisance calls were set out in our strategy paper published on 30 July. These include legislating to ensure that Ofcom can share information more easily with the Information Commissioner’s Office. We will be implementing this through a statutory instrument that will be laid shortly, with a view to it coming into force by 6 April 2014 at the latest, if not sooner.

We are also actively considering the scope to legislate to lower the legal threshold the ICO needs to demonstrate before issuing a monetary penalty, which the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, mentioned. We are assessing the business case and the cost before we take action on this. In view of the large number of nuisance calls relating to the payment protection insurance sector, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred to, we are also working closely with the Claims Management Regulator. It is welcome to see that the CMR is taking action against claims management companies which fail to comply with the rules.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

The Government have made no progress yet on the funding of the claims management ombudsman. If the Minister is not able to answer now, I hope he can come back and maybe give a report to the House on that.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

It is probably best if I write to your Lordships so I can give chapter and verse on that matter.

The main issue in this Bill is changing from the current opt-out requirement to an opt-in system for unsolicited direct marketing calls. There is a feeling that this is unlikely by itself to make an impact on the present situation, as calls to consumers who are registered with the Telephone Preference Service, provided they have not given explicit consent to receive such calls, are already outlawed under the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations. Germany has an opt-in system but, according to a study in 2011 by trueCall Ltd, complaint levels are broadly similar to those in the UK. The Government’s view is that those breaking the law by calling consumers registered with the Telephone Preference Service are just as likely to ignore the law, regardless of whether there is an opt-in or opt-out system. Tackling nuisance calls would be better addressed by focusing on improving enforcement rather than changing the nature of the register; legislation of this nature is unlikely to be the answer.

The Government will continue to work with regulators, network operators, consumer group representatives, interested Members of Parliament and Members of your Lordships’ House to find solutions. A combined effort by all parties is needed. This is now beginning to happen and we are ensuring that work by the industry is also under way including, for example, the ability to trace calls where the calling number is deliberately withheld or spoofed. This will also help contribute towards achieving more long-term solutions. We welcome the fact that TalkTalk last week launched a network-level solution for its customers and that BT will be displaying full call-line identification for incoming international calls, where available, on its network by next autumn. Last week, the Telephone Preference Service launched its accreditation scheme, TPS Assured, which seeks to improve best practice among companies. We know that there are already products on the market which can help consumers filter calls. We are keen for the UK to take a lead in developing the solutions that put the power in the hands of consumers. We are aware that, as part of the joint action plan to tackle nuisance calls and messages, which was launched by Ofcom and the Information Commissioner’s Office in July, research is being undertaken to see what further improvements can be made to the Telephone Preference Service. All this is extremely welcome.

We take the issues raised in this Bill very seriously and very careful consideration needs to be given to them. The reservation we have about my noble friend’s Bill is not that we do not share the intention to remedy the matter but that we think there is a more effective route to securing what my noble friend’s Bill seeks to achieve. We already have regulations in place that protect consumers, so the focus needs to be on better enforcement in support of them. In addition to the measures noted earlier, we are actively considering proposals for further reform. The recommendations of the report from the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Nuisance Calls, published last week, and the forthcoming report of the recent CMS Select Committee inquiry will be useful in informing further our thinking in this area. The work is ongoing, and the Government will publish their action plan on nuisance calls later this year. I hope that your Lordships will understand that this reflects the importance and urgency of this issue.

The practical way to solve this issue is to get industry and regulators to work together. Like my noble friend, I am eager to find effective solutions, both legislative and non-legislative. In doing that we need to balance the right of business to conduct legitimate direct marketing while strengthening the regulatory framework and industry best practice to target companies that flout the rules. In view of the work, legislative and non-legislative, I assure your Lordships that we are progressing efforts to counter the issue of unsolicited marketing of nuisance calls with vigour.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 14th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, this is always an interesting one; it feels so natural that it must be easier to vote over two days than over one, and at a weekend. On the face of it, the proposal seems very attractive. However, following on from the noble Lord, Lord Norton, in all the doorstep work I have done—and I have done a fair amount—it has never been a complaint that I have heard. Although it sounds quite attractive, I have never heard people saying, “Why don’t we vote at the weekend?”. However, perhaps we should look to France. When we were discussing the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, I think noble Lords were saying that we should follow France, which votes on a Sunday. Much more importantly, of course, they voted socialist on a Sunday, so we should definitely follow what France does.

It sounds attractive but we are perhaps in a closer place to the Government in that we await some evidence about whether this merely sounds attractive and easy, or whether it would do what I think all of us want and increase public engagement and accessibility for voters, which we are going to come on to in an important amendment shortly. What we need is evidence and some more thought on this, and we will then happily look at it. If evidence is brought to us that this would increase both turnout and engagement, we would respond quite positively. However, at the moment, we are slightly lacking that evidence.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first, I thank my noble friend for moving this amendment, because it has given us an opportunity to consider the points on weekend voting. This amendment would amend the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, to change the current position, whereby the date of the parliamentary general election is on a fixed day, to a position whereby the Prime Minister would specify by order that polling for the next general election could take place on any day, or on two consecutive days, between 2 May and 10 May 2015. The provision would then apply for subsequent general elections every five years over the course of one day, or two consecutive days, and within the first 10 days of May. I understand that this is to allow the Government to consider the case for weekend voting and to implement it at the next UK parliamentary general election in 2015 and at subsequent general elections. This is clearly an important issue.

As noble Lords will be aware, there are arguments both for and against moving polling day from the traditional Thursday to another day or days, perhaps at the weekend. Similarly, there are arguments for and against holding elections over more than one day. We know that moving to weekend voting would raise particular issues and concerns for certain faith groups. However, it is not obvious that moving polling day from the traditional Thursday to a Saturday or Sunday, or both, would make it easier for electors to vote.

The most recent assessment of opinion on this issue was a consultation exercise undertaken in 2008 by the previous Government, which made the findings public. The overall response was against a move to weekend voting, with some 53% of respondents taking that view. Additionally, where weekend voting has been tested in a small number of electoral voting pilots, the total take-up was generally around 2% to 3% of the overall total number of votes cast, and there is no evidence to suggest that it encouraged voters to vote who would not have otherwise done so.

For these reasons, I do not believe that this is the appropriate legislative vehicle to make such a change, or even to open up the possibility for the Prime Minister to make the change later without, as the amendment is drafted, the consent of either House. Moreover, alongside concerns about practicability, moving to weekend voting would also raise resource and cost issues. Importantly, an impact assessment undertaken by the Ministry of Justice in February 2010 under the previous Government concluded that moving from Thursday to weekend voting would increase costs significantly. Staff, polling station and counting costs would all rise with weekend voting, as would the costs of storing and securing ballot papers over two days at the weekend. The impact assessment estimated that, in total, costs would increase by around £58 million per general election. This clearly is not the primary factor, but it is one that we should consider in discussing this amendment.

Given that there is no clear evidence that the electorate would favour such a move to weekend voting, the Government have no current plans to move polling day for either the general or other elections to the weekend. However, they will keep under review ways in which the democratic process can be enhanced. For these reasons, I hope that my noble friend will agree to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for bringing forward this amendment. As I understand it, the amendment seeks to provide that those electors who remain on the register following the canvass would retain their existing electoral number if an election were to take place within 30 days of the publication of the register.

The amendment raises a number of practical considerations and could make the process for compiling the register, and the register itself, more complex. It may also result in additional costs for electoral registration officers if their IT systems have to be adjusted to meet these new requirements.

It is not certain that the amendment would necessarily address the concerns that were quite rightly raised by the noble Baroness, especially as implementing the proposed change could take up the time of EROs that could more usefully be spent on other matters arising from their registration duties. Of course, individual electoral registration is being introduced to tackle electoral fraud and to improve the integrity of our electoral system, in particular the electoral register.

The proposed change could lead to confusion in the data being included on the register; for example, it is not clear what would happen when electors are removed from the register following an annual canvass. If it is intended that the numbers for such electors are not to be used on the new register, this would result in gaps in the numbering of electors on the register. It is not clear how electors who are added to the register would be numbered; it may mean that a different numbering system would be used for new electors. This could mean that persons living at the same address are subject to different numbering systems and their names could appear on different parts of the register, which I understand could be an issue for the logistics of producing and distributing poll cards. When a revised register is published, parties will in any event need to update the data they hold to reflect changes to the register; that is, persons removed and added to the register.

On the face of it, this amendment could bring added complexity and cost to the electoral registration process without bringing the obvious benefit that I know the noble Baroness is focused on, which is the reduction of electoral fraud. For those reasons, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I thank the Minister for that. Certainly, we do not want to add complexity. As someone who has gone round knocking on doors, the last thing we want is different numbers within the same households, for reasons that I think we all understand.

I am grateful to the Minister as I think I heard him say that he understands what we are trying to avoid. If the Government or the Electoral Commission can perhaps work with electoral officers and look at that issue of having time to check on fraud, we will leave it to their good offices to do that. On that basis, I withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, this amendment would delete subsection (3) which states that:

“An order under subsection (1) may appoint different dates for different purposes (including different days for different parts of the United Kingdom)”;

that is, to commence the Act, as it will become. This gives the Minister considerable power and we would not willingly see that handed over because it will enable a pick-and-mix approach towards when different parts of the Bill come in.

My particular questions concern the provision, I think for the first time, to commence different parts of the Bill in different parts of the United Kingdom. It is slightly hard to understand what the Government have in mind in writing that into the Bill. This is, after all, an all-UK provision, even if votes take place in different parts of the country. This Bill is about a new system of electoral registration and who will be on the register in the future. We would like to know why the Government feel they need a power to bring in just by ministerial order different parts of the Bill in different parts of the United Kingdom. I beg to move.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this amendment seeks to remove a technical part of the Bill—namely, Clause 25(3)—which would mean that the order commencing the provisions in the Bill would not be able to state different dates for different purposes. The subsection in question is a standard provision in legislation and the effect of this amendment would be to prevent the commencement of different parts of the Bill at the most appropriate times.

The Bill is set up to make changes over a two-year transition period. It is drafted with that in mind, and some provisions are specifically drafted to commence at different times. It is presumably not the Opposition’s intention that the planned two-year transition would become a big bang switchover with all the preparation work having to be done at the same time that IER was live.

The amendment would also mean that the much-needed improvements to the administration of elections contained in Part 2 could not be commenced until the provisions under Part 1 relating to IER were ready to be commenced. This would result in either delay in the electoral administration provisions being commenced or the Government being required to commence provisions of the Bill well before they intend to use the powers enabled by them.

The amendment would undermine the entire transition to IER, for example, by not allowing the Government to bring forward an order delaying this year’s canvass until IER was in force, thus defeating the purpose of doing so. It would also mean that electoral administration provisions under the Bill could be commenced only all at once and only alongside the IER provisions. For these reasons, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I think the noble Lord did not answer my main question. What is the intention behind allowing it for different parts of the United Kingdom? We are less worried about the staging of the Bill. Why bring it in at different times for different parts of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am not aware in detail of the issue raised by the noble Baroness. I had better write to her about that because there is a point that needs clarification—unless a further message reaches me, which would be extremely timely so that we can tidy this up. My message tells me that this legislation has been designed to be as flexible as possible, and that is why the legislation is drafted such as it is. Perhaps I could consider the matter and come back to the noble Baroness.

Retail Prices Index

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Wednesday 14th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, again, I return to why we are where we are with this consultation. Among the key indexes that I have learnt about that I did not know much about is the Carli index. This index has now been discontinued by every other large advanced economy. The IMF has concluded that Carli, which is a major part of the RPI, is not an appropriate formula for inflation measures. On the point about pensions, this is a Government who have made the largest ever cash increase to pensions, to £107.45 a week. Of course, the Government’s triple guarantee means that the basic state pension will increase by the highest of growth in average earnings, the CPI or 2.5%.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, it is a shame that the noble Lord did not answer the question just put to him. Given that the Government changed from RPI to CPI on a permanent basis, despite the fact that we hope that the deficit is only a short-term one, it will cost people for many years to come. Will that be reviewed? Is this review of RPI really just statistical or is it a way of disguising cost of living increases caused by fuel and VAT?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have to return to why this is happening. It is happening because of the National Statistician and under statute. Having looked at previous Questions when the noble Baroness’s party was in office, precisely these things happened then, too: there were these reviews. This was about an independent inquiry. I hope that I tried to answer the last question, which is why I discussed the Carli index—a key part of RPI. In many countries it has been rejected as the sensible way of dealing with things such as cost of living increases.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 29th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am very conscious of the experience of both my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Martin, on these matters. I agree entirely that there needs to be dialogue between the Electoral Commission and parliamentarians so that this is very much a live issue.

I fully appreciate that I have taken some time over the 11 amendments in this group. Given the grounds that I have set out, it remains for me to ask the noble Baroness whether she is in a position to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response, but I am not happy. There are three elements. The first is whether the canvass should take place in October. I could live with by October, but my concern is that if it is in the spring it will be too late for a May election. The important thing, therefore, is to get it done by that stage so that there is time to work on it.

The main issue is the annual canvass and the power to abolish it, and all the rest is a way of making it harder to abolish it without the proper say-so of Parliament. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord Martin, for their support for the canvass. I remain suspicious, particularly of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, that “The Government would do this only if …”. That says it all. It would be the Government who do it. As for affirmative resolutions, we know that if you are in government you have a majority in the other House, and we in this House, quite rightly, do not vote against such instruments. Basically, it is a power in the hands of the Government. The whole Committee—there is not much of it at this moment—would be concerned about the Government having the power to abolish the annual canvass.

To some extent, the Minister has admitted that. He talked about the ability to put it back and re-establish it if there were problems and a safeguard was needed. That is a risk too far. The amendments seek to make it harder for the Government to abolish it. Before we come back at Report stage I hope that the Government will think about the need to keep the annual canvass in the Bill without just giving it to a Government to abolish. We will no doubt return to this, but, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.