Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Cromwell

Report stage
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, for tabling their Amendments 39, 40 and 41, which speak to the publication of data from monitoring networks and emergency outflow permits. I also thank the noble Lord and the noble Duke for the time they took to meet with me between Committee and Report to discuss these topics and the wider industry that they were concerned about.

Amendment 39 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, was supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Browning and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. We agree that it is essential for companies and the regulators to have a clear understanding of the cause of discharges from emergency overflows. That information is important to ensure that the regulators can assess the compliance of emergency overflows and for companies to invest in the right improvements to prevent discharges from reoccurring.

It is important to note that all discharges from emergency overflows should be reported as pollution incidents. Once the Environment Agency has been notified of a pollution incident, it will request follow-up information as to the cause of the incident and any remedial action being taken.

For some discharges, establishing the cause may be straightforward. However, for more complex or more serious incidents it may take longer to identify the cause. When more serious incidents occur, the Environment Agency may need to complete on-site visits and investigations into the cause of the discharges. Since it will not necessarily be known at the time of the incident occurring how long these investigations will take, it is not practical to set a date by which the cause will be identified.

Furthermore, Clause 2 will also require companies to provide information on the causes of pollution incidents annually, as the noble Lord referred to from our discussions, as part of their pollution incident reduction plans. That is to ensure that water companies are transparent about the causes of pollution incidents and the measures they have taken to reduce the likelihood of further incidents.

Requiring water companies to publish a date by which they would inform the public of the cause of an individual discharge would likely result in water companies either rushing investigations to meet an arbitrary deadline or setting themselves lengthy timelines that they know would be achievable. Following our discussions and what I have said now, I hope that the noble Lord understands why we consider the amendment unnecessary and that he will be content to withdraw it. I am of course always happy to discuss matters with him further.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I am sympathetic to the reasoning given, but will the Minister take on board that this means the citizenry may not know for a year why there was a spillage in their area?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I am happy to take that on board and back to the team for further discussion.

I turn to Amendment 40, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. I thank him for proposing it, as the Government agree that it is important that water companies make information about emergency overflow discharges as easy to access as possible.

Clause 3 explicitly states that information on discharges from emergency overflows will need to be both readily accessible and understandable to the public. That duty will be enforceable by Ofwat, which will be able to access the underpinning raw data from emergency overflows to inform its enforcement responsibilities under the Water Industry Act.

Water companies have already begun to publish information on storm overflow discharges in near real time, ahead of the Water Industry Act duty coming into force in January next year. Furthermore, Water UK, in collaboration with water companies, is shortly due to publish a new centralised map of storm overflows—as referred to by the noble Lord from our discussions—which is designed to present real-time discharge data from all storm overflows in England on one website. I am sure that he will be delighted to hear that we are making good progress on this. The Minister for Water received a demonstration of the website only yesterday, and the Government understand that it is due to be published shortly.

A similar approach is intended to be followed for monitoring data for emergency overflows to meet Clause 3 requirements. In addition, if needed, guidance could be issued from the Government or the regulator to the sector to further support the implementation of the emergency overflow publishing duty. Therefore, since the industry is already planning to centralise data on sewage discharges on one website, the Government do not believe that an amendment to mandate publication on a centralised website is necessary.

The noble Lord asked a number of very specific questions. If I have not answered any of them, I am happy to come back to him in writing with more detail.

Amendment 41 is in the name of the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington. I thank him for raising this important issue. The Government are clear that emergency overflows should be used only as an absolute last resort. We are talking about emergency overflows here, not storm overflows. Emergency overflows are different from storm overflows. They operate in response to an emergency event at a sewage pumping station, whereas storm overflows are designed to operate in combined sewer systems during heavy storm events. Discharges from emergency overflows should therefore only occur in much more limited circumstances.

As previously explained, environmental permits for emergency overflows already require companies to put in place strict protection measures to prevent, as far as possible, discharges due to power failure. That can include back-up generators or duplicate power supplies.

The Environment Agency will consider enforcement action if a company operates an emergency overflow and it can be proven that the discharge could have been avoided if the company had complied with the protection measures set out in its permits. Electrical power failure is an acceptable reason to discharge only when it is fully—I repeat, fully—outside the water company’s control and not due to any failure on its part to maintain protection measures.

The unintended impact of the amendment could be that we fail to provide for discharges that are outside a company’s control and that are necessary to protect upstream homes from flooding—for example, if a back-up generator failed or did not last long enough. For these reasons, we do not believe this amendment is necessary and are concerned about the unintended consequences.

Having said that, I appreciate that the noble Duke feels strongly on this point, so I extend an invitation to him that I hope he will take me up on. I offer him to join me on a visit to see some of the overflows in person, to enable him to look at the varied scale and types of infrastructure and protections that are already in place, to help him understand and, I hope, to put his mind at rest. I am sure that the noble Duke has never had an invitation from a noble Baroness to look at a sewage plant before and that this is an exciting first for him.

I once again thank noble Lords for their constructive engagement on the important matters of data transparency across water industry monitoring networks and the permitting of emergency overflows.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

The Minister is right that I am delighted to hear about the centralised provision of information, and I eagerly anticipate her reply to my six questions. I am bitterly disappointed that I have not also been invited to go with her to a sewage farm. What has the noble Duke got that I have not? I do not know and I do not want to know. Anyway, I wish them joy. I thank the Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Biodiversity Net Gain

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Cromwell

Wednesday 6th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is referring, I assume, to the exemptions in place for applications that have no or a very limited impact on biodiversity. That was brought in to ensure proportionality and to keep the planning system moving. However, Defra is working with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to review planning statistics and specific applications.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I am currently involved in negotiating with a developer on biodiversity net gain. This involves boxes of huge and very expensive files, which have to be redone every time Defra changes the metric and locks the land into a commitment of 30-plus years. The developers tell me that their traditional landscaping required under planning often exceeded what is required under biodiversity net gain. Can the Minister give us any data on what real net gain is being achieved?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Clearly, this is still fairly new for planning applications. It came in only eight months ago, so we are considering how we move forward. I do not have data on that to hand, and I am not sure we would have it available at present, as it has been only about eight months, but I will check and get back to the noble Lord.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Yes, the Government have committed over £35 million in ring-fenced funding to local planning authorities to help them prepare for and implement biodiversity net gain. We have confirmed funding up to the end of next year and further funding will be in the next review.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

As we have some time left, may I ask the Minister to look into why farmers in the higher-level environmental protection scheme—the HLS—are being excluded from joining the SFI scheme, both of which she will be familiar with? I have been asking Defra for months why Ministers are not being advised of this discriminatory approach and I have yet to receive an answer.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I am happy to go back to the department on this. We are going to open up the high-level applications next year, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware, and we are also looking at what we do with the legacy payments. I am happy to discuss this issue with him further, because we are making quite a lot of decisions on how we move forward.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Cromwell

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I would like clarification on a point. The Minister mentioned that there will be a map of overflows across the country. How near to real time will it be? She said that it will be accessible to the regulator. Will it be accessible to the public?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I do not have that detailed information. I will write to the noble Lord and place a copy of the letter in the Library so it is available to everybody ahead of Report.

Amendment 50 was tabled by my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone. The Government fully agree that emergency overflows should be monitored. However, we do not support the removal of the delegated power for Ministers to make exceptions to the Clause 3 duty. We believe that this power is necessary to allow for scenarios where it is not feasible to monitor emergency overflows, such as where an overflow is due to be decommissioned. Removing this power may inadvertently lead to delays in commencing this duty, if issues arose that we could not resolve without this power. Any exception to the monitoring duty would need to be agreed by Parliament using the affirmative statutory instrument procedure.

On Amendment 58, tabled by my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone, water companies should bear the cost of understanding the impact of their discharges on water quality. Installing and maintaining continuous water quality monitors requires regular access to water company sites. Water companies can do this much more easily than can the Environment Agency. Defra has issued guidance on the expected standards of these monitors, and in future all monitors will be expected to become independently certified under the Environment Agency’s certification scheme. Water quality data that will be made available will then be scrutinised by the independent regulator. Regulators will continue to work with water companies to ensure that the data is of high quality. I hope that this reassures my noble friend and that she feels able not to press her amendments.

Amendment 75 was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and I thank her for raising this issue. Misusing sewers to dispose of materials such as wet wipes and cooking oils contributes to major issues, such as blockages in the sewerage system. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, asked whether I have gone down a sewer. I have, and it is just disgusting; it is quite extraordinary what can happen there. Sewer blockages cost the water industry £200 million a year to fix and are responsible for 40% of pollution incidents.

Many people are not aware that the actions they take in their own homes can have such damaging impacts. Small but significant steps, such as not pouring fats and oils down the plug hole, can prevent blockages. The Government work to encourage all householders and businesses to play their part, and fully support water industry campaigns to address this issue, including Water UK’s “Bin the Wipe” campaign. I completely understand where the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, is coming from. I will take this away and look at whether there is any more we can do to draw attention to this fact.

Having said that, we do not believe that water companies should be exempt from sanctions when using emergency overflows following blockages caused by sewer misuse. Water companies should take every reasonable measure to prevent the use of emergency overflows, including measures to prevent blockages. Some blockages caused by sewer misuse can often be mitigated by good maintenance; for example, by detecting blockages before they become significant issues and with preventive cleaning. The intent of this Bill is to strengthen water companies’ accountability for pollution incidents and not to diminish it. That is why Clause 2 will require water companies to publish the pollution incident reduction plans that we debated earlier.

I was interested in the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Deben, to look at how Canda deals with this issue. My brother-in-law lives in Canada, so my family and I go there. It is a really interesting suggestion.

I turn to Amendment 87, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. Proactive data publication is vital for transparency and to enable the public to scrutinise water companies. While we support the principle of transparency and are taking action to increase transparency through Clauses 2 and 3, we are concerned that the noble Baroness’s specific proposals duplicate pre-existing provisions and would create practical difficulties. Case law and the Information Commissioner’s Office have been clear: water companies are public bodies for the purpose of the Environmental Information Regulations, and water companies already provide information under these regulations.

The Information Commissioner’s Office is clear that water companies must be transparent, and it is taking several actions to enforce that. In May of this year, the ICO released decision notices for six water companies, instructing them to disclose the start and stop times of sewage discharges. In July, it wrote to water companies to encourage them to proactively publish information on sewage monthly. In October, it published a practice recommendation to United Utilities to address the specific issues that it had identified.

I turn to Amendment 89, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning. The Government acknowledge that it is important that there is more transparency about the abstraction of water by water companies. However, any new requirements must be both practical and proportionate. Clause 7 already provides the necessary flexibility for the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to impose conditions or general rules for abstraction licences. We believe that secondary legislation is the more appropriate vehicle to address these technical matters effectively. However, having listened to the noble Baroness carefully, we will consult on the use of Clause 7 powers to ensure that the conditions introduced are appropriate and achievable.

Finally—I am sure we all want our dinner—I turn to Amendment 94, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. I am supportive of greater involvement of the public in this sector. He made the very important point that bringing in the public is vital, including through citizen science. However, this amendment is not needed, as we believe that the provisions in the Bill will already increase transparency and the provision of data in this sector, which are critical to informing and engaging the public going forward.

I hope that I have set out sufficient detail on Clause 3 to reassure all noble Lords of its intended purpose and effect. I sent out a fact sheet on the definition of emergency overflows and storm overflows to try to make sure that everybody is clear on the difference, but I am sure that we will come back to these issues in future. I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments and enjoy their dinner break.

Independent Water Commission

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Cromwell

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

Does the Minister agree with me that the failures in the UK water industry derive from extractive financial engineering, which in turn led to poor investment in infrastructure, which in turn led to the environmental failures that have become so publicly known? All these things should have been picked up by the regulators far sooner and acted on. Will the commission focus on that aspect?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The commission will focus on regulation, among other things, and I urge noble Lords to input into that part. Clearly, regulation is an area of particular concern. We need to look at how it was possible for water companies to have managed to get into such appalling debt; the commission will want to look at that very carefully.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The situation in the River Wye is the most dreadful example of what can happen when you get too much run-off from agriculture. We are looking at what needs to be done around the River Wye in particular, but we are looking more broadly at how we manage pollution from agriculture. I met my colleague Daniel Zeichner, the Minister for Farming, only earlier today, and we discuss these issues on a regular basis. Although agriculture is in scope only where it interacts with water regulation, that does not mean that we are not serious about tackling the problem. It is a huge part of this; I think that over 40% of pollution in our rivers comes from agriculture. It is very much high on the Government’s agenda.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I urge that the commission takes a serious and practical look at resourcing. The Environment Agency has had its budget halved in the last decade, and it is pointless producing complicated recommendations if they are not going to be resourced—something which we as legislators do far too often.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes an extremely good point. Resources and enforcement are a crucial part of ensuring that any legislation is delivered.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Cromwell

Committee stage
Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Baroness Hayman of Ullock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have put forward amendments relating to the financial management of water companies. I will start with Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell.

Ofwat has a core duty under Section 2 of the Water Industry Act 1991 to ensure that companies can finance the proper carrying out of their statutory obligations. Ofwat already monitors the financial position of water companies and can take action when companies need to strengthen their long-term financial resilience. However, we recognise that some companies will need to take further steps to strengthen that financial resilience. Ofwat has required further assurance from these companies about their financial resilience into 2025 to 2030 and beyond, and the annual monitoring financial resilience report is due to be published this autumn and will provide a publicly available assessment of the financial resilience of each water company. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, that we met and discussed these concerns previously. Clearly, the commission that we have talked about a lot today will look at performance and resilience, but I am very happy to discuss this with him further as we move forward through the Bill.

Turning to Amendment 86, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, I emphasise that there is a high bar for the introduction of a special administration regime and the Government do not expect to have to use this power. A special administration regime will be required only when there is evidence that a company is insolvent or in serious breach of its statutory duties. The noble Lord’s amendment is to Clause 10, and Clauses 10 and 11 are designed to introduce new powers for the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to modify water company licences to cover any shortfall that results from a SAR. Government funding may of course be required to cover the costs of a special administration, and these clauses mean that the Government will be able to recoup any taxpayer money spent during a SAR that cannot be covered upon exit from the SAR, either by rescue or by transfer. I wanted to make that clear. Of course, in the unlikely event that the power in the Bill is used, it allows the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers to decide, subject to consultation, the rate at which the shortfall is recovered. I hope the noble Lord is therefore reassured that any intervention would be considered very seriously and as a last resort.

I turn now to Amendment 92, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Roborough. Water companies are allowed to raise debt to fund the delivery of their services and it is for companies to decide their financial structure. At sensible levels—that is the key point—debt can be an appropriate way to fund essential investment. Sustained investment in the water industry will continue only if the shareholders of companies can expect a fair return. This amendment may therefore threaten the ability of companies to attract investment if limits on borrowing are imposed.

I reassure the noble Lord that Ofwat already has appropriate powers to prevent dividends where they would threaten financial resilience. I appreciate that the noble Lord has extensive experience in this area, but I hope he understands why we cannot accept this amendment, because it is vital that we ensure companies are able to finance their functions. If he would like to send in more information about this, I would be very happy to receive it and have a look.

Finally, I once again highlight that the new independent water commission, led by Sir Jon Cunliffe, the former Deputy Governor of the Bank of England, will review the current water industry regulatory framework to ensure that it attracts investment and supports financial resilience for water companies. I once again thank noble Lords for their suggestions and input into this discussion on the financial management of water companies.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I thank everyone who has participated in this. I think we are all concerned about financial engineering of one sort or another. It is not only borrowing, but that is clearly an important part of it. I am sorry that the amendments have not passed muster, but I look forward very much to further discussions with the Minister, as she offered. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Water Companies: Financial Resilience

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Cromwell

Tuesday 23rd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The water special measures Bill that we will bring in front of your Lordships shortly is going to deliver on our manifesto commitment. As well as strengthening regulation, it is designed to make sure that the water industry will be fundamentally changed and transformed. It will ensure that water company bosses are not rewarded with bonuses if a serious environmental breach is committed. It will strengthen and enhance the ability of regulators to bring robust charges against water companies and executives when they have committed offences, including through automatic and severe fines. It will also require that water companies install real-time monitors, so that we can actually see what is going on. I also reassure the noble Lord that this is just a start.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

The Ofwat website refers to an £88 billion programme of investment that will go into the infrastructure, and describes this as

“initially … funded by shareholders or through borrowing, with these costs then recovered”

from consumers over five years “and beyond”. Does the Minister have any concern as to whether that money will actually be raised, and does she share my concern about the financial resilience of consumers to pay for it over time?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

As the noble Lord quite rightly says, Ofwat has set out a record £88 billion upgrade so that we can deliver the cleaner rivers and seas, and better services for customers, that we need. It is absolutely not right that the public should pay the price for years of mismanagement in the water sector. Any water bill rises are the result of these years of failure, but it is important that we do not put too much on to vulnerable customers, so officials are exploring options for improving affordability measures in the sector.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Lord Cromwell

Committee stage
Monday 24th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I have an amendment in this group that I shall speak to, but I will first make a few comments about the amendments in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. I thank him for his extremely detailed and thorough introduction to what is a very complicated issue.

As we have heard, the noble Earl proposed similar amendments to the then Building Safety Bill, which the Government rejected in favour of Schedule 8 and the other leaseholder protections that were eventually included in the Act. I commend him for his continued efforts in the work he does to support leaseholders, and the noble Lord, Lord Young. They have been absolutely unassailable in not wanting to give up on this.

I am sure that the Minister will repeat some of the reasons given during the passage of the Building Safety Bill as to why the Government are unable to accept these amendments in this legislation. My recollection of the reasons given is that the amendments would require a sizeable bureaucracy to be set up to deal with the thousands of buildings that would potentially be caught, and concerns about litigation risk. However, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, is absolutely right to press that something should be done for buildings that are under 11 metres and resident-owned buildings. As was said during the passage of the Building Safety Bill, part of the problem is the number of buildings. Something has to be done to help all these people. During the passage of that Bill, the Government promised that something would be done. The noble Lord, Lord Young, quoted from the debate on the building safety Statement the Government’s continued promises to help those leaseholders who have still been left out, but this has not been done.

If the Government are going to push back again on this issue, when are they actually going to address this, as they have has previously promised to do? As the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, there are still significant numbers of leaseholders unprotected from often huge costs, and the situation is not resolved until everybody has proper protection. The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked the very pertinent question, “Have the Government done enough?”—and then I think he answered his question, and the answer was no. The Government need to fulfil the promise made during the passage of that Bill and look at how that issue can be resolved.

It has been said that building safety remediation is very complicated. But it is not complicated at all and is actually something the Government could do very quickly and easily to improve the safety of buildings in multiple occupancy. My Amendment 504GJD states:

“Within 60 days of the passing of this Act, a Minister of the Crown must make a statement to each House of Parliament outlining their position on whether building regulations should require the installation of more than one staircase in large multiple-occupancy residential buildings for the purposes of fire safety”.


This has been a concern for some time, and Grenfell made issues of fire safety even more important. But the reason I want to bring this up is because the National Fire Chiefs Council has argued that second staircases should be mandatory in blocks above 18 metres in height. It states:

“In the event of a fire, a correctly designed second staircase removes the risk of a single point of failure, buying critical time for firefighting activities, and providing residents with multiple escape routes”.


It points to London Fire Brigade figures which show that from

“1 April 2019 to 31 March 2022 … 8,500 residents chose to evacuate buildings rather than stay put”.

We are really pleased that the Department for Levelling-up, Housing and Communities has been carrying out a consultation to mandate second staircases in new residential buildings above 13 metres. The consultation paper states that

“the provision of a second staircase can provide some benefits for very tall residential buildings such as added resilience for extreme events and reduced conflicts between emergency responders entering a building and those trying to escape, reducing the risk of the smoke ingress into an ‘escape’ stairwell”.

It also states that a second staircase would provide a second means of escape if one route were filled with smoke.

We welcome the fact that the department has been carrying out this consultation. It closed very recently. I would be very pleased if the Minister could give some update on when we are likely to hear the outcome and the Government’s response to the consultation, but, in the meantime, if she were inclined to accept our amendment, it would help progress.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for not speaking in previous stages of the Bill: commitments elsewhere made it impossible. I shall speak briefly in support of Amendments 274 and 318 from the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. Reading the email circulated, citing powerful support for these amendments from expert commentators, government figures, individual leaseholders and associations from across the whole world, not just the UK, the rest of us can only look on in envy at the level of support that he has generated for his amendments. I congratulate him and the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, on championing this cause and on the powerful and detailed speeches which they gave us earlier, along with the right reverend Prelate.

The approach taken in these two amendments, which are founded on the polluter pays principle, make complete sense in putting right work that was in breach of building regulations at the time across a wider range of premises and a wider range of defects. I have some sympathy with the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about looking after the construction industry. The fact is that, in a way, the polluter pays principle does not quite work here because, if building works were not done in accordance with the building regulations, it is quite clear who is responsible, whereas you could argue more widely about, for example, a leak from an oil tanker being a pollution incident. But, fundamentally, what this comes down to is, if not these solutions, what do the Government propose? I look forward to hearing.