Water Bills

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My noble friend points out some of the disgraceful behaviour we have seen from water companies in recent years. We expect companies to invest their own money going forward. However, we recognise that new investment means that customer bills are likely to rise. It is Ofwat’s responsibility to independently scrutinise water company plans, ensuring that the prices companies charge their customers are fair and proportionate. Vital infrastructure investment funding is ring-fenced and can be spent only on upgrades benefiting customers and the environment. Ofwat must ensure that when money for investment is not spent, companies refund customers, with money never allowed to be diverted for bonuses, dividends or salary increases.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister assure me on the recommendation in the Frontier Economics report of 2021, commissioned by Ofwat, to stop developers passing on the cost of incremental upgrades and treatment works for major new developments? The fact that the recommendation has not been introduced is bloating customer bills, which is unacceptable. Will she ensure that the recommendation by Ofwat is introduced to reduce customer bills and make developers pay for connections for major new developments and the upgrade of treatment works?

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Report stage
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, for continuing to raise this important issue, and for tabling her Amendments 3 and 43, which speak to the implementation of Schedule 3. I thank her for her passion and persistence on this matter—she has never let it drop, which is important because this stalled 14 years ago. I also thank her for taking the time to meet me and my noble friend Lady Taylor of Stevenage, the Minister in MHCLG, to discuss this matter in some detail and to look at how we can improve delivery.

On Amendment 3, the standards introduced under Schedule 3 would be designed specifically for relevant approval bodies to use when determining applications for sustainable drainage. As I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, such applications would be submitted mainly by developers, not water companies—obviously, for SUDS, that is who implements the developments. Because of that, the Government do not consider Schedule 3 standards to be appropriate to use when we are establishing the rules on remuneration of pay prohibitions. That is why we cannot accept the noble Baroness’s amendment.

Amendment 43 is the important, indeed critical amendment in this group. As I have previously said, the Government are strongly committed to requiring standardised SUDS in new developments. We are not looking to renege or backtrack in any way. We are committed to this; it is about the most effective method of delivery.

There are specific outcomes that the Government want to achieve. We want to see an increase in quantity, with more SUDS being built, but we need to see better design qualities that do what we want them to do. We need effective adoption and maintenance, to ensure the new SUDS being built are long-term and keep their quality for the long-term. We need an increase in sustainable drainage in more developments. We need to ensure that, when we are improving the design, they are designed to cope with our changing climate; that is critical, as we are seeing more and more water, often followed by drought, which compounds a lot of the problems. We need to make sure that anything we bring in delivers wider water infrastructure benefits by reducing the levels of rainwater entering sewers, which noble Baronesses have mentioned, and helps improve water quality, while enabling economic growth and delivering the biodiversity and amenity benefits that we need.

Surface water run-off was mentioned by a number of noble Lords. It is important that we look at how we tackle all aspects of drainage and surface water. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, mentioned her house in Devon. We live in a very old stone-built house in Cumbria. Our house has also flooded in the past. There is much that we need to work on in this area. I am also very aware that there are occasions when new build, if not done properly, can have a knock-on effect on houses that have never flooded before. There is a big picture question in the planning system around how we approach this and tackle it most effectively.

While I am on the subject of surface water, the noble Earl asked about the amendments coming up on nature-based solutions. That is absolutely part of the package of how we tackle this going forward. He asked whether all the areas that we are looking at will continue to be input into the review. Anything we have discussed here that is still outstanding or of concern will absolutely be looked at and will be within the scope of the review going forward.

Having said all of this—the noble Baroness knows this because we discussed it with the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage—we believe that our ambition for SUDS delivery can be achieved in different ways. It can be achieved through improving the current planning-led approach, and using powers through that route, or by commencing Schedule 3 to the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, as the noble Baroness requested. If we are going to get this to work in the most effective way possible, and get the kinds of results that we need, we need to work hand-in-glove with the MHCLG. Ultimately, this is about development and developers, and getting them to make the right kind of connections and drainage decisions in new developments.

As we discussed, we are looking at planning reforms that can deliver improved sustainable drainage. The National Planning Policy Framework is out for consultation at the moment, until the end of the year. We have asked specific questions around SUDS, from Defra, in that consultation. If noble Lords are interested in inputting to that, it is currently open for consultation.

The MHCLG is looking at the best approach to this, through the NPPF consultation, and there is going to be planning and infrastructure legislation coming up. That is why we cannot accept the amendment at the moment. There are a number of delivery paths. We want to deliver this and we want to deliver it well, so we need to get the delivery path correct. That is why we are unable to accept the amendment of the noble Baroness.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Before the Minister sits down, she failed to respond on the case study on capacity and on the cumulative impact. I am afraid that in this Bill the Minister is making water companies liable and responsible for something that the developers are responsible for by not putting SUDS in place. That is just not acceptable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes an extremely important point. I am more than happy to pick this up, look at it and write to her on how we propose to move forward. I am so sorry: the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, asked another question, but I cannot remember what it was.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

It was on cumulative impact. I quoted what the noble Baroness had said about the cumulative impact on development, and I am trying to understand why we are delaying implementing Schedule 3. What is the cumulative impact and regulatory burden that the noble Baroness is so concerned about?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The main issue, for me, is to look at how we get developers to implement what we need them to be implementing as far as sustainable drainage is concerned. We know that that is the right way forward and we have said that we want to increase it. When we are working with developers, we need to get them to want to do this, to be part of moving forward in the planning system and to improve drainage systems on the basis that, ultimately, it helps everybody when it comes to flooding and sewage overflows.

Clearly, there is a cumulative impact if you are developing in an area that already has a lot of development. We already know that there are issues around this. We need to get it right, so we need to consider the cumulative impact when SUDS are being designed. I have said that we want to improve design, to make sure that it is effective and works for the long term. As part of that, we also need to look at how it is managed. It is all part of that.

Developments do not just get built and then that is it, they are on their own. As I said, there are areas—certainly near where I live—where development has taken place and the cumulative impact on the other developments nearby has been negative; it has not been good. We need to ensure that we consider that, so we make sure that any systems we bring in will work properly.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

From the Minister’s last remarks, we are in fact saying the same thing. All I am asking the noble Baroness to put into this Bill is the requirement to report in six months’ time on where we are on the implementation of SUDS. So, if the Government have decided that they do not want to go down the SUDS path and want to go down the planning path, she will know that within six months. I do not intend to press Amendment 3 to a vote, but I would like to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 43, which will come later.

Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Enforcement Regulations 2024.

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Baroness Hayman of Ullock) (Lab)]

My Lords, these regulations make provision for enforcing the live exports ban in the Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Act 2024. They create a robust and effective enforcement regime that builds on the existing requirements for animal welfare in transport and, importantly, ensures that the burden on industry is minimised.

Although animal welfare is a devolved matter, a joint approach to implementation and enforcement has been agreed with the devolved Governments in Scotland and Wales, as many export journeys begin in one jurisdiction and depart from ports located in another. This instrument therefore applies across England, Scotland and Wales to ensure a uniform, consistent enforcement of the prohibition across Great Britain.

This instrument provides powers to the Animal and Plant Health Agency, as the national regulator for animal welfare during transport, and to local authorities, which are responsible for enforcing it. First, to minimise circumvention of the ban and the need for enforcement action, this instrument provides for strengthened pre-export controls for livestock to be carried out by the Animal and Plant Health Agency. The current controls already require organisers of live animal transport to submit a plan of the journey, including departure and destination as well as rest stops. This plan, known as a journey log, must be submitted to APHA for approval for any long journey to a third country.

The new provisions in this instrument will require organisers of such journeys also to provide evidence of the purpose of their export. APHA will need to satisfy itself that the consignment will not be exported for slaughter or fattening before it approves the journey log, and it can refuse to approve the journey log on that basis. To facilitate this process, we have worked with the national beef, sheep and pig associations and the British Pig Association to establish a system whereby they will be able to assess and verify evidence provided by journey organisers. This system should provide journey organisers with a simple way of providing APHA with the required evidence.

The national associations have provided a similar service to industry for many years to facilitate shipments with P&O Ferries, which has a no-slaughter shipment policy. The industry is, therefore, familiar with the process of working with the national associations; we believe that this will encourage engagement and compliance with the new requirement.

It is important to be clear that the pre-export controls set out in these draft regulations do not apply to horses. We are taking a co-design approach to identifying solutions to prevent horses being exported for slaughter. We are working together with stakeholders, who know their industry best, to find the most effective solution. We expect to present specific measures for horses in a separate instrument for consideration in due course.

Secondly, these regulations provide a range of powers to APHA and local authorities; they are to be used in relation to both livestock and horses should investigative or enforcement action prove necessary. These include the power to serve a hold notice to prevent the movement of animals if an inspector suspects that they may be exported for slaughter or fattening. They also include a power of entry and inspection to premises, including vehicles, vessels and dwellings, where inspectors believe an offence is being, has been or is about to be committed, or where there is believed to be evidence of an offence on the premises. This includes a power of entry to private dwellings, subject to obtaining a warrant.

Exporters of livestock and horses will be required to retain records relating to the export of those animals for three years, which must be provided to an inspector on request. It will be an offence to fail to keep these records, to fail to comply with a hold notice or to obstruct an inspector. The penalty for these offences would be an unlimited fine in England and Wales or, in Scotland, a fine limited to level 5 on the standard scale.

These regulations provide the Animal and Plant Health Agency with the power to suspend or revoke a transporter authorisation if there is evidence of non-compliance with the live exports ban. Such decisions may be appealed, first through reconsideration by the Animal and Plant Health Agency then, if unsuccessful, in the relevant First-tier Tribunal.

We are taking a risk-based approach to regulating trade to ensure that the burden on industry is minimised while preventing circumvention of the ban and so minimising offending levels. This instrument is essential to ensure that we can effectively enforce this important animal welfare measure.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the regulations before us. I welcome the Minister to her position and thank her for setting them out.

We will not rehearse all the arguments we had in the debate on the Bill, but I welcome the fact that horses are not covered. I am sure that pony clubs across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will be extremely happy to hear that. When does the Minister think she will be in a position to come back to the Committee to explain the position on horses and how it relates to the tripartite agreement?

I have a number of questions that reflect my concerns. I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, to her place; I think she is going to speak in a later debate. She will recall all the excitement around Brightlingsea, which was in my Euro constituency at the time, when one of the first incidents of live animals for export came to my attention. Of course, the cases have been small in number and heavily regulated by the EU and our own domestic regulations.

Paragraph 6.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that the regulations, certainly in England,

“will usually be enforced by the local authority”.

Has the Minister’s department done an impact assessment on the cost implications for local authorities and their resources, bearing in mind that we are well aware of the pressures on local authority budgets and resources at this time?

I regret that this is a unilateral measure and is not being imposed by our former partners in our erstwhile membership of the European Union. There is meant to be a legitimate trade in breeding stock and stock for racing. Obviously, it is excluded at the moment because of the prevalence of bluetongue disease. The last time we debated this, which was round about the time before the Bill gained Royal Assent, my understanding was that there were as yet no facilities to allow this practice to happen. This is a legitimate and very lucrative trade, and it is a source of great concern in the farming community that it will still not be permitted once we get over—in due course, I hope—the threat of bluetongue disease.

I perfectly accept that the Minister might not be able to respond today, but could she give us a written reply on where we are with the facilities? They have to be paid for. I understand that they could potentially be at Harwich, in my former Euro-constituency; they could be elsewhere, for example at Dover, but at the moment this is a very serious gap in a legitimate trade. Although it is not necessarily covered by the remit of these regulations, it is a great loss of earnings to those who ply that trade.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have taken part for their interest in the important topic of sustainable water usage and sewerage infrastructure. I shall start by speaking to Amendments 34 and 38, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and spoken to by other noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, gave some examples around this. The Government agree that nature-based solutions, including natural flood prevention solutions, are a useful tool for tackling the root causes of sewage pollution while delivering wide ecological benefits.

Noble Lords who took part in the progress of the levelling-up Act will remember that this was debated in Committee on that Bill and that I spoke against the proposals that preferred the cheapest option because we were concerned about the amount of concrete that this could lead to rather than the best solutions for the environment.

The Government’s strategic policy statement includes Ofwat’s proposal to allow more than £2 billion of investment in nature-based solutions at its draft determinations for price review 24. This includes £1.6 billion to reduce storm overflow spills through catchments and nature-based solutions, and further funding is proposed for nature-based solutions such as reedbeds and wetlands for nutrient removal. The Government have supported water companies trialling nature-based solutions for groundwater-induced storm overflows. This is, of course, subject to the final determinations to be made in December but, if approved, will allow for greater understanding around effectiveness and suitability and enable greater uptake at future price reviews.

Nature-based solutions may feature in pollution incident reduction plans, but we believe it would be inappropriate to mandate their inclusion because they may not necessarily be effective in every circumstance. These plans are intended to ensure that water companies implement mitigations to reduce pollution incidents. Each year, the single biggest source of pollution incidents is issues such as blockages or mechanical failures within the foul sewer water system. These issues are best addressed via monitoring and maintenance measures, such as the detection of bursts, checking pumps and relining sewers. This is important work that needs to take place alongside. It is for these reasons that the Government are not supporting these amendments. However, I reassure the noble Baroness and other noble Lords that the Government remain extremely supportive of using nature-based solutions to tackle the underlying causes of pollution incidents, and I look forward to discussing this topic with her further alongside colleagues from MHCLG in the coming weeks.

I turn to Amendment 51, tabled by the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, about the use of back-up generators at emergency overflows. The Government agree that measures should be put in place to reduce discharges from emergency overflows caused by electrical power failures. However, water companies are already required to implement measures to reduce the likelihood of a discharge occurring due to an electrical power failure through conditions in their environmental permits. In particular, water companies must demonstrate that they have back-up systems in place, such as generators or alternative power supplies, to secure the emergency overflow permit. Ultimately, emergency overflows may still be required to operate as a last resort to protect the sewerage infrastructure and prevent upstream properties flooding.

The near real-time reporting of information required by Clause 3 will enable increased transparency around the use of emergency overflows and will better enable resource to be quickly directed to investigate and address any cause of such a discharge. I thank the noble Duke for meeting me previously to discuss his concerns and his amendment. I am not sure that he will be reassured, but those are the reasons we do not believe an amendment in this space is necessary.

Amendment 53 from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, is on the important issue of SUDS, which we also discussed on Monday, and to which my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, also spoke. As I have noted and discussed with the noble Baroness, this Government are strongly committed to requiring standardised sustainable drainage systems in new developments. We are actively considering whether improvements in the delivery of SUDS, which we all wish to see—14 years is far too long to wait for the implementation of legislation—may be better achieved through mechanisms other than Schedule 3 to the Flood and Water Management Act 2010.

I say to the noble Baroness that I have never had a catchphrase before. I was rather hoping for something a little more exciting—suggestions on a postcard. I am sorry to disappoint, but I am not going to use that catchphrase now. I look forward to meeting the noble Baroness alongside my colleagues in MHCLG. There are certain things that we need to discuss to see how we can move things on in this area.

On Amendment 54, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, about the importance of having a drainage and sewerage system that can meet current and future demand. I always appreciate her enthusiasm on these matters.

As part of the Environment Act 2021, a duty has been created for water and sewerage companies in England to produce drainage and wastewater management plans. These plans set out how a company intends to improve their drainage and wastewater systems over the next 25 years, accounting for factors including a growing population and changing environmental circumstances. Taking a strategic approach to drainage and wastewater management will help to identify and mitigate issues related to insufficient network capacity.

The Environment Agency has a role as a statutory consultee for local planning authority decisions for certain types of developments that are made under Part III of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 to help ensure that matters of wastewater and treatment, work capacity and water resource matters are considered as part of key planning decisions.

The Government appreciate the intent behind the amendment but have concerns about how it could operate in practice. That is because it could potentially give sewerage undertakers the right to refuse connections based on their own predictions of capacity without reference to agreed standards. Furthermore, legislation already permits undertakers to refuse connections where they would be prejudicial to their sewerage systems. Where disputes arise, the matter can and should be referred to the independent regulator, which in this case is Ofwat. However, I am happy to look more closely at capacity issues, as the noble Baroness suggests.

On Amendment 88, also from the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, the Government recognise the importance of ensuring the availability of sustainable water supplies to help meet our target of delivering 1 million new homes in this Parliament while protecting the environment. Under existing powers, water companies should ensure that they have sufficient water resources available to supply new homes, in line with the water resources planning guidance. In addition, Natural England and the Environment Agency are required to assess the impact of water company plans on protected sites.

Amendment 93, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, follows on from those amendments. I agree with the noble Baroness and understand the need for increased water efficiency and water reuse. Looking at all these amendments as a whole, I have to say it is completely bonkers that in this country we use drinking water to flush our toilets. That does not happen elsewhere. For that reason, we are already reviewing the relevant regulations. We intend to publish in the new year a consultation on how we could revise those regulations, with the aim of increasing water reuse.

The reuse of water through rainwater harvesting and grey water reuse may have important benefits for the environment because it is part of reducing our reliance on water abstraction. Water reuse systems have a wide range of benefits, such as reduced demand on water infrastructure, reduced carbon emissions and flood protection.

On the noble Baroness’s particular question about the mandatory water efficiency labels that we are introducing, we are completely committed to that but we have not yet made a decision on the minimum standards.

I hope this reassures the noble Baroness that the proposed new clause will not be needed as we are already taking significant steps in this space. I once again thank noble Lords for their important contributions and suggested amendments around sustainable water usage and sewerage infrastructure.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and others who have spoken in this debate. I am a little concerned, because I understood the Minister to say that they may seek to achieve sustainable drains through other means than Schedule 3.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

To clarify, we are not suggesting that we do not do that, but we want to look at all the different options so that we can look at how we can practically move forward.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I just say that I am extremely disappointed. I know this is not necessarily within the gift of the Minister but, as we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, this was meant to be the year that we implemented Schedule 3, and there are only two months left. While I welcome the fact that we are going to meet before Report, I will look to bring something like that back.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Browning, who, in mentioning capacity, has underlined the need to end the automatic right to connect and to establish water companies as statutory consultees in all future planning applications. If there is no capacity, I do not see how we can expect water companies to make false connections that will lead to further sewage spills in future.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Committee stage
Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, through provisions introduced by Clause 1, Ofwat will be able to issue new rules on remuneration and governance to ensure that companies and executives are subject to robust oversight and held accountable for failure. Among other things, these rules will ensure that executives will no longer be able to take bonuses where companies fail to meet standards on environmental performance, financial resilience, customer outcomes or criminal liability.

Amendments 7 and 8, introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, seek to ensure that these rules apply only in instances where the failure to meet the required standards is due to a failing by that individual and not another person. I start by reassuring the noble Baroness that, should companies meet their performance expectations, executives will rightly be rewarded. However, the changes proposed through Amendment 7, in particular, would make it more difficult for Ofwat to implement the rules on remuneration and governance in a meaningful way. This is because it would introduce an additional test to be met before the bonus ban could be applied, where a link between the specific actions of an individual senior leader and the performance failings of a company as a whole might be difficult to demonstrate.

Senior executives are also collectively responsible for the actions of the company and therefore should be held responsible for poor performance. However, having said that, Ofwat has stated, in the policy consultation it published last week, that, while it intends for the rules to apply to most performance-related pay decisions by water companies,

“there may be … exceptional circumstances where a payment should not be prohibited”.

For example, if an incident leading to a rule breach was clearly and demonstrably beyond the control of the company, this could be grounds for an exemption from the ban.

Considering the changes proposed by Amendment 8, we also consider it unlikely that individuals in senior roles will fail to meet Ofwat’s future standards of “fitness and propriety” due to a failing on the part of another person. The potential criteria proposed by Ofwat in its consultation to measure “fitness and propriety” include character, previous conduct, and knowledge. These criteria are specific to the individual, rather than the performance of the company, and do not obviously relate to acts by other persons.

I just want to mention an issue that the debate moved on to, around drainage and SUDS. We are going to be discussing SUDS further in group 8, so we shall talk about that then, but I want to assure the noble Baroness that we are engaging with officials in MHCLG, because it is really important that we have a proper discussion around planning and drainage as we move forward with development. I am very aware of the problems that surface water can cause in new development if it is not thought through properly.

The noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, drew the Committee’s notice to the commission and asked whether it would be discussed there. I will draw the Committee’s attention, for interest, to part of the scope of the commission:

“Where housing, planning, agriculture and drainage interlink with strategic planning for the water system, these are in scope. ... The commission should have regard to how the water sector regulatory system provides the certainty around the provision of water infrastructure needed to underpin development plans, housing growth and sustainable development, while strategically protecting and enhancing the environment. This should include how regulation and planning for water infrastructure and for residential and commercial development can work together more effectively to anticipate and invest to provide for future growth, to quickly resolve and prevent issues where water and wastewater capacity constraints may otherwise inhibit necessary development (such as through their impact on requirements for water and nutrient neutrality)”.


So, although it is not entirely dealing with the issue around SUDS, I think it is something we need to explore further with the housing department, for example, and with local government. There is an opportunity to look at development and water within the scope of the commission. I hope that is helpful for noble Lords to understand.

I hope I have reassured the noble Baroness that the rules will be applied to individuals in a proportionate manner, and made clear why the Government consider these amendments to be unnecessary.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to debate in some depth these two amendments. I just clarify that the automatic right to connect is very different from SUDS and I do not think the noble Baroness addressed that point. I still have reservations, because I believe it is inappropriate in terms of Clause 2 to speak about pollution incident reduction plans when so many of the sewage discharges can self-evidently be found not to be the responsibility of water companies at all. As the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, so eloquently and appropriately recorded, these incidents are only going to increase as we see the number of major new developments of four-bedroom and five-bedroom houses increase.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Committee stage
Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, for her amendments relating to Ofwat’s duties. I will take Amendments 11 and 12 together.

As I have previously noted, public trust in the water sector has been severely damaged, and the number of serious pollution incidents is increasing, yet companies are still paying out millions in bonuses. To rebuild public trust, we are creating a new framework to support accountability, including the new rules relating to remuneration and governance. As the independent economic regulator of the water industry, Ofwat will be responsible for developing these rules.

However, the Government are clear that environmental standards are a vital component of performance. As such, the Bill requires the forthcoming rules to include standards that relate to the environment. The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, has mentioned the devastation that flooding can bring; I reassure him and other noble Lords that I completely understand why it is so important for us to tackle flooding. I live in a house that has been flooded—living in Cumbria, you are always aware of these issues.

With regard to the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 specifically, while the Act includes provisions relating to sustainable drainage, it does not prescribe or define any environmental standards capable of being applied in this context. It would therefore not be appropriate to include reference to standards in this legislation within Ofwat’s rules, as Ofwat does not have any functions or expertise in relation to the technical requirements prescribed under the Flood and Water Management Act 2010.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, suggested that Defra should take ownership of delivering this. The issue we have is that it also impacts directly on development and developers, which is why the Government are currently working with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to assess how best to implement their ambitions on sustainable drainage, while also being mindful of the cumulative impact of the new regulatory burdens on the development sector. At this stage, I do not want to pre-empt the outcome of that process.

On this basis, the Government do not accept either of the amendments from the noble Baroness. However, I would like to say that the noble Baroness knows that I am very sympathetic to her concerns. As she said, we have discussed this previously. If she is willing, I suggest that we look to arrange a meeting between herself, myself and MHCLG, in order to discuss this further, where she can clearly explain her concerns to both departments—Defra and MHCLG—that have responsibility for moving forward on this.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all who have spoken, and in particular for the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and, from a sedentary position, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, as well as my noble friend Lord Blencathra. He referred to the flooding. I was actually a candidate—at a very early age—for Workington in 1987. I went back and visited as a shadow Minister during the severe floods of 2007 and 2009, so I am well acquainted with the pressures faced by Carlisle, Keswick and Cockermouth. It was very sad to see that many of the residents felt that they could not afford to take out insurance in those floods.

I will add that it is not just flooding that concerns me; it is the surface water going into the combined sewers taking the sewage from the new developments that do not have mandatory SUDS that is causing the problem.

I would like to take up the Minister’s offer. It would be good to have the meeting before Report, because I would be prepared to come back with these amendments then. Alternatively, if the department wish to come forward with even better amendments that achieve the same end, that would be very welcome.

Waste: Incineration

Debate between Baroness Hayman of Ullock and Baroness McIntosh of Pickering

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, it does say in the Companion that you should not thank a noble Member for their Question—so, on this occasion, I will not. The environmental permitting regulations prevent the incineration of separately collected paper, metal, glass or plastic waste, unless it has gone through some sort of treatment process first. Following that treatment, incineration is seen to be the best environmental outcome. We know that the recycling rate is too low, that we burn too much waste and that, for too long, recycling rates in England have plateaued. The way forward is to look at the whole big picture and our circular economy ambitions are designed to address this.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Will the noble Baroness commit to looking not just at incinerators but at anaerobic digesters and accept that they have a powerful role to play not just in getting rid of residual waste, particularly household waste, which is a very vexatious challenge, but in heating people’s homes at a reduced rate? Will the Government keep an open mind on energy from waste, including anaerobic digestion?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

As I just mentioned, we are looking to do a review right across the piece on this, so anaerobic waste will certainly be part of that.