Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Monday 22nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

The amendment wants to begin to collect the data so that public policy can follow it, but it does not ignore the fact that this is sensitive and must be done in a confidential and sensitive way, with a clear purpose of public policy. It is not beyond the wit of our society to collect that data in a way that does exactly that. The amendment does not say how it will be collected. It is easy to make an argument that it will become about outing yourself or declaring it publicly, but it need not be so, because that is not required. The purpose of this amendment is the collection of accurate data in the proper pursuit of public policy and the protection of individuals. I very much hope that the Minister will give it serious consideration and let us know the Government’s views.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, for tabling this amendment, to which my name is attached, and for very clearly explaining it. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, for talking about public policy interest. That is the reason I have attached my name to this amendment.

I believe that the collection of consistent, routine and accurate data is paramount, not least in order to provide the correct services and support for both alleged victims and perpetrators of crime. But the data has to be consistent in being able to spot trends, allocate resources and make historical comparisons. In the past, the words “sex” and “gender” have been used interchangeably. This is no longer the case. A clear definition and understanding of what information is useful and appropriate to be recorded is important.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, on her point that people need to feel safe and be encouraged to come forward and report crimes, but I am afraid I do not agree with her when she talks about having a register that adds people. That is not my intention in supporting this amendment. Disclosure can be an issue, and it can trigger strong emotions and fears for some vulnerable individuals. As legislators, we must understand and address such fears, but also recognise that they are not a sufficient reason to compromise accurate data collection for the benefit of everyone in society.

It is really important that data is taken in a careful and sensitive way. By carefully gathering this data, this amendment seeks partly to help policymakers in making decisions on support for alleged victims and treatment for those who commit crimes, but also to provide consistency and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morris said, the best information that we can get to make good public policy.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, we clearly have a division in the House about the merits of this amendment. There are those of us who quite clearly understand the way in which the terms “sex” and “gender” are used and have been used, not just in this country—under several bits of legislation, most importantly the Gender Recognition Act—but also in international law. There is a growing body of international law in which “gender” and “sex” are well understood.

I simply want to ask the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, to explain three points that he made in his speech. First, he said that the intention of this amendment was to keep the public safe by the accumulation of accurate, appropriate, timely and consistent data. If that data is not aligned with a person’s gender identity, then it will not be accurate, so how can he ask us to accept it? Secondly, he told us that we should not get bogged down in modalities, but this is about a very practical exercise of gathering data, not in a theoretical way and not on the basis of gender-critical beliefs but actually on the basis of people’s lives. Does he not think that this is important enough detail to put into primary legislation? Finally, he said that experience has shown that it was very useful to gather information about sex and gender. Whose experience? Can he give us more information about that?

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 14th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I draw your attention to my entry in the register of interests. In this Second Reading, I shall speak to just one clause: Clause 45, which seeks to include sport under “Positions of trust”. There is some further clarification required as to the scope of inclusion and the measurement of data but, as the Minister suggested, I strongly support its inclusion. The majority of people I speak to are surprised that it is not already included. After all, teachers are, and arguably they have less power over their pupils’ lives than, say, a coach, whether employed or a volunteer.

I have been privileged in my time in sport to have met many amazing people who go above and beyond, and who care and protect the people they support. However, over the years I have been told by too many people that such a clause is not required. This is certainly not about criminalising a 19 year-old, who is perhaps a coach in a local club, and a 17 year-old. However, we must recognise that, in sport, as in all cross-sections of society and occupations, there are some people who will use their position, young peoples’ hopes and dreams, friendship circles and a feeling of belonging to overstep the mark.

Clause 45 lays a marker in the sand. It says that there is no place in sport for someone who has perhaps coached a young person since the age of 11 and then turns up on their doorstep on their 16th birthday asking for a date. There is no place in sport for the person who says to a 16 to 18 year-old that if they want to make the team, there is only one thing that they need to do—and they do not mean an extra training session.

The defence given too many times for this behaviour is, “They are good at what they do. They are a good coach.” I reiterate: they are “good at what they do”. There is not a chart that says to a coach or a supporter, “If you achieve x, you get to sexually harass; if you achieve x+2, you can stalk; and if you achieve x+4, you can be in a sexual relationship with a 16 to 18 year-old.” What if you achieve x+6? What can you then do to a young person? This is not someone who is good at what they do—they are a predator.

I would like to thank the Ministry of Justice and the Secretary of State, the right honourable Robert Buckland, for listening to the many cases put forward. I also thank the honourable Sarah Champion MP, who has campaigned for years, as well as the honourable Tracey Crouch MP, and the many other people who have supported this. Sport can be amazing and hugely positive, and most of the time it is. It can be a great frame of reference and lived experience—there are so many benefits for young people—but it can also ask a lot of young people as they develop into adulthood. As the NSPCC has said:

“These benefits should not come at the price of exposing children to a risk of being groomed, exploited or manipulated by those adults who they look to for leadership, guidance and support.”


Clause 45 is essential to protect the reputation of coaching and those who support young people, and, not least, the 16 to 18 year-olds who just want to be involved in sport and activity.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 17th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I can only begin speaking on this amendment by taking a moment to think of the victims of the Atlanta spa shootings and their families. It is very early to understand motives for a deadly mass attack, but it is hard not to suspect a link to the kind of hate crime, possibly intersectional hate crime, that we are discussing today.

I want to pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, and the noble Lords, Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Young of Cookham, for their work on this amendment and their powerful presentations for it. Had I known there was a space, I or my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, who backed a similar amendment in Committee, would certainly have joined them.

I will be fairly brief, noting the intervention we have just had, but it is important to note that this amendment marks a potential national step forward for a grass-roots movement which, as other noble Lords have noted, started in Nottingham. This amendment has not, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, identified, gone as far as Nottingham in data collection, but it is certainly a step in that direction. The recording of misogyny by police in Nottingham can be taken as a case study of how political campaigning works and how grass-roots, community-centred action can make a big difference in the individual community and far beyond. Now, 11 out of 43 police constabularies in England and Wales have made recording misogyny a hate crime part of their practices or are actively considering the policy.

How did this all start? It started with a community group called Nottingham Citizens, which conducted a survey that found that 38% of women had reported a hate crime that was explicitly linked to their gender and that one in five hate crimes that took place were reported. Nottingham Women’s Centre held a conference about street harassment at which the police and crime commissioner asked those who had experienced misogyny to raise their hand. The police and crime commissioner, Paddy Tipping, was quoted afterwards as saying “I just thought people should not be treated like this.” Since the change has been made in police recording in Nottingham, reports indicate that women say that they have been able to walk down the street with their heads held higher and debate and action have made a lot of men recognise the extent of the problem. I urge the House to listen to the experiences of the women of Nottingham and of the increasing areas of the country where people have had their experience understood and recorded and apply that to the victims of domestic abuse.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, linked the amendment and support for it to the current level of rightful anger in the country following the death of Sarah Everard, but as the noble Lord, Lord Russell, pointed out, the proposal originated far before that. Indeed, I have to pay tribute to the deputy leader of the Green Party of England and Wales, Amelia Womack, who has bravely publicly identified herself as a victim of domestic abuse and who has been campaigning on this issue for many years.

In response to the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about potential confusion, any examination of what has happened in Nottingham shows that real-world experience does not demonstrate significant difficulties.

It is said often that we have an epidemic of misogyny and violence against women, but my science background makes me want to be precise in my use of epidemiological wording. We have endemic misogyny. “Endemic” defines a disease that is always present in a certain population or region. Smallpox was once an endemic disease in much of the world, but we have almost eradicated it. We need to have the same target in mind, as distant as it may look, for misogyny. That is the only way that women and girls can be safe. I do not think I can put it any better, so I will finish by quoting Mel Jeffs, the former CEO of Nottingham Women’s Centre:

“Misogyny is the soil in which violence against women grows.”

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, for her work in this area. The figures that she mentioned are terrifying, and I agree with many of her points.

I received a number of emails asking me to speak to this amendment because of the level of concern about misogyny. Like many others, I am tired of misogynistic behaviour and appalled by the way that women are still treated in society. However, what looks like a simple amendment that I could support is in fact far more complicated. The amendment does not explicitly state the word “misogyny”, and to me the inclusion of the word “perception” is not precise enough.

I am grateful for the various views from other noble Lords and, as always, the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, has given me much to think about and challenged my views about what misogyny actually is. I am still inclined towards a legal framework for it, but I am tired of women having to change their behaviour because of it.

However, we need to consider what we can do to prevent, report and tackle it, and which legislation it should be placed in. Both men and women are affected by domestic violence and all those affected by it deserve protection, but women are undoubtedly more commonly victims. There is only one place in the Bill where the word “female” is used and we should take absolute care with it because it is the only place where women are centred in the legislation.

Domestic abuse legislation is complicated; it should not be, but it is. Last week the Government told me that including a specific provision in the Bill for disabled people who experience abuse in the domestic environment would be too complicated. I am strongly in favour of improving law enforcement around violence against women and girls, which we desperately need, but, while I am moving towards the idea of having a legal framework for misogyny, I do not think the Bill is the right vehicle for it. We should spend more time and care on the question of hate crimes—I am particularly keen to look at disability hate crimes—than on an amendment that comes towards the end of the Bill. We should have an opportunity to explore more options to enable us to do the job that we want it to: offering protection to women and girls.

Counting women should not be complicated. The amendment is largely about the counting aspect of hate crimes. How do the police measure how many crimes of male violence against women are reported and how many are prosecuted? That is fundamental, and this is where it does not need to be complicated. Scotland passed a Bill on hate crimes last week and excluded women and misogyny from it, saying that the issue was too complicated. There is a working group led by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, and many will be interested in its outcome, but that will not be for many months.

I understand that the word “gender” was added to the amendment after previous stages in another place. Earlier versions used the correct legal definition of “sex” and did not have the late insertion of “or gender” so that has not been through lengthy scrutiny. I am concerned that adding “gender” here takes away from the clarity of Clause 73 in centering women. I reiterate that anyone who experiences domestic abuse deserves support and protection. Gender is neither definable nor defined in law, so including it here could undermine the single use of the word “female” in the Bill, again given that it is women who are disproportionately affected by domestic abuse. Surely we should be concerned about whether the police take crimes of violence, abuse and sexual harassment against women seriously, not what they perceive the attitude of the perpetrator towards the idea of sex or gender to be. Sex is a protected characteristic and defined in law, and is adequate to cover the intention of the amendment if it goes forward.

The Law Commission is developing a proposal on reforming hate crimes legislation and has consulted on it. It has an open question on whether include sex or gender in future, and that section alone runs to 43 pages out of a 544-page document. I understand that it received a great number of responses but, again, it will not be reporting any time soon, so it is important that we do not prejudge that outcome. It is also notable that the Law Commission’s proposal draws on the Office for National Statistics in setting out what it means by sex and gender. After the ruling announced this morning from the High Court, it may need to go back to the drawing board. My noble friend Lord Pannick, who is unable to be in his place today, has stated that he thinks it would be very unwise to legislate on this sensitive issue until we see the Law Commission consultation.

Scotland recently removed the word “gender” from a Bill on forensic medical services for victims of sexual offences to ensure that if a woman asks to be examined by a female doctor, there is no confusion or negotiation about what that means. I would also be really interested in the opinion of the domestic abuse commissioner on this amendment, particularly on the addition of the word “gender”.

My worry is that including gender and sex as a caveat to the word “female” in the guidance would prevent domestic violence services being clear about sex. Women who have been victims of domestic abuse need to be able to access female-only services if they choose and, again, all victims of domestic abuse need to be able to access services that offer support and protection. We must take misogyny and violence against women seriously, not just seek to be seen to do something when the issue is in the headlines. It happens every single day.

The Government have just reopened the consultation on their violence against women and girls strategy. Surely that is the right place to be dealing with this complex issue, rather than via this last-minute amendment and its additional wording.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I am pleased to speak in support of Amendment 87B, moved by my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley and supported by the noble Lords, Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Young of Cookham. My noble friend gave the House some harrowing facts and figures today. They were shocking and, for me, illustrate why the Government need to act. This is not a time to hide away; it is the time to step up, and my noble friend’s amendment does just that.

The noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, led the debate on misogyny in Committee. We have spent considerable time during the Bill talking about violence, and violence directed towards women. As the noble Lord told us, this hostility against women generates a culture in which violence and abuse are tolerated, excused and repeated. Understanding how that interplays with domestic abuse is important; I agree entirely with the noble Lord’s comments and analysis there.

We need a culture change, from one where violence and abuse can be excused, tolerated and repeated to one where it is entirely unacceptable and not tolerated. To bring about that culture change, however, we need evidence, and that is what the amendment is all about. All through the passage of the Bill in your Lordships’ House, we have heard appalling examples of violence and tragic outcomes, in which often women victims of violence have been killed. In the examples given to this House there is a common factor of repeated reports being made to the police and other authorities but little or no action being taken until, tragically, it is often too late.

Several police forces have started to record misogyny as a hate crime, and that is enabling valuable data to be collected. The amendment from my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley would move us further forward and require all police forces to record this information and access how it influences the incidence of domestic abuse. That would add to our understanding and help the Government in their difficult task of addressing this truly terrible situation. Sadly, that has been brought sharply into focus by the murder of Sarah Everard and the events on Clapham Common last weekend.

I am also clear that both men and women may experience incidents of violence and abuse. Nothing that I have said previously detracts from that, and we have all been moved by the contributions of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, in previous debates. I agree with many of his points today, but possibly not with his conclusion. I think the amendment is a step forward, and this is an issue on which many of us agree. The noble Lord knows that I like and respect him very much, but I believe that women are more likely to experience repeated and severe abuse, including sexual abuse. I remind him of the dreadful fact that my noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon told the House: 30 women were killed by their partner or ex-partner between Second Reading of the Bill and Committee on Monday night, and she read out the names of those women to the House.

I too pay tribute to Sue Fish, the retired chief constable of Nottinghamshire, for the work that she and all the officers and staff of Nottinghamshire Police have done in this area since 2016. It has become the first police force to enable women and girls to report cases of abuse and harassment as misogyny. As my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley said, thanks to the work taking place there, women in Nottinghamshire have been coming forward and reporting crimes. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, reminded us in Committee that to recognise misogyny as a category of hate crime would not make anything illegal that was not already illegal; instead, the amendment would enable a better understanding of the forms of violence and abuse that women experience by ensuring that they are all recorded effectively.

I am aware of the Law Commission’s review that is presently under way. I believe that the amendment would help it with that review, even just for a few months before it reports, and would further supplement the Government’s work in looking at the review and give them valuable data to enable them to respond positively. I am also aware of the interim report from the Law Commission and its views on sex and gender.

I concur with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. I believe that the intent behind this amendment will assist the Government in dealing with the appalling events that have been brought more sharply into focus not only last weekend but also during the discussions on this Bill.

The contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, was interesting, although it is not one that had much in it that I can agree with. For me, this is not an issue of free speech; it is an issue of dealing with the most appalling violence against women and girls and how we can deal with that effectively. I support my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley, and the Labour Benches will support her if she decides to divide the House. However, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, will respond positively and thus make a vote unnecessary.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 15th March 2021 Lords Chamber

This amendment, alongside the Bill generally, which I support enormously, could go some way to building genuine change over the coming years.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am in an unusual situation. When I am fourth on the list, I would usually feel that I had something to contribute, but listening to the harrowing experiences of the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Bertin, it makes me feel that this is the most challenging amendment I have ever spoken on. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, very clearly explained the need for this amendment and the fear that women face. I feel very privileged that I have met the family of Jane Clough, whom she mentioned, and listened to their heart-breaking experiences and how time and time again they felt that they were not being listened to.

Like so many women in public life, I have experienced very uncomfortable situations where I have had unwanted attention, been bombarded and had threatening behaviour. I have been incredibly lucky that people have helped and supported me through it, but even with that support and police support around me, I was not able to sleep, I could not eat, I was scared to go out and I was constantly looking over my shoulder. It changed how I felt about myself and my ability to cope with everyday life, and that was with help and support around, so imagine what it must be like to feel that nobody is listening to you and nobody is helping. That is why I strongly support Amendment 73 and the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Strasburger.

I thank the London School of Economics, which provided incredibly useful information and support on this amendment. Gathering data is important, but so is sharing that information with police forces. It does not seem right that this data is not systematically shared and is shared only through the Police National Computer, which records only charges.

I urge the Minister to listen to the speeches tonight. A comprehensive perpetrator strategy for domestic abusers and stalkers is essential. It is needed more urgently than a year from now. It must help the identification, assessment and management of perpetrators. We must focus on perpetrators’ behaviour and not blame victims. We must support the victims to enable them to have a chance to get through it. I shall not say any more on amendments tonight, but I strongly support the amendment and will vote favour of it if the noble Baroness divides the House.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, I strongly support my noble friend Lady Royall. Like her, I essentially want to see a co-ordinated, consistent and mandatory approach to the flagging and targeting of perpetrators, with a statutory obligation on police, prison and probation services to identify, assess and manage serial and serious domestic abuse perpetrators and stalkers. Without such a comprehensive approach, we will not get anywhere with this problem.

The appalling murder of Sarah Everard yet again highlights the fear and reality of male violence for all women. Femicide is at an all-time high; a woman is murdered by a male ex-partner every three days. These are not rare occurrences, as the police so often claim to justify the lack of priority given to the protection of women. The list of women killed by men since this Bill had its First Reading, read out by my noble friend, is surely testimony to that. Throughout the first lockdown. five women a week were killed by a male partner or ex-partner.

It is so striking that most of those men had a history of harming other women—yet there is no proactive risk identification or assessment or management of the perpetrators. Ministers attribute this, essentially, to poor practice. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has argued that offenders should be managed under MAPPA—but the reality is that domestic abuser and stalker cases are just not heard at MAPPA meetings; they are screened out as cases not seen as serious.

In a moving, courageous speech, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, referred to three cases. I want to talk about another one: that of Cherylee Shennan. Cherylee was stabbed to death outside her home by convicted killer Paul O’Hara in March 2014 in front of police officers who had been called to investigate reports of domestic abuse. She had suffered a broken nose, repeated facial bruising and a broken jaw at O’Hara’s hands. She was held hostage at knifepoint at least twice before O’Hara killed her.

O’Hara was previously given a life sentence in 1998 for killing ex-partner Janine Waterworth, but he was released on licence in 2012. He had other previous serious convictions for violence against women. He had been assessed in prison as displaying traits of psychopathy. At the time of his release, he was assessed as posing a serious risk to women. Despite his history, O’Hara’s risk was not required to be managed within MAPPA.

Cherylee’s family first suspected that O’Hara was abusing her when they saw her with serious facial injuries at a family gathering on bonfire night. At the time, Cherylee gave an alternative explanation for the injuries but, on 1 March 2014, she told her sister Ellen that it was O’Hara who had caused them, that he had also fractured her jaw and that he had held her hostage at knifepoint. She also told her sister his offending history.

The family called the police. Police officers attended what they believed to be an ongoing domestic violence incident, without any knowledge of O’Hara’s history. They discovered his history on doing a PNC check at Cherylee’s home, but they took no positive steps to arrest or risk-manage O’Hara. They also did not take a full account either from Cherylee, who was fearful of the consequences of police involvement, or from the family members present who could confirm the injuries.

Coroner James Newman published a “prevention of death” report, raising alarms over the lack of interagency communication between probation services and the police. In his findings, he questioned the role of MAPPA. He said that, following O’Hara’s release,

“there were no local MAPPA meetings, no inter-agency meetings and no significant inter-agency communications regarding the perpetrator, no detailing of his licence conditions, and no information regarding either his nature or the trigger factors of his offending. My concern is despite this, and the findings of the report, there is still no mandatory process for the sharing of information between agencies where the offender, despite a known extensive history of domestic abuse and identified trigger factors, is then managed at MAPPA Level 1.”

This is the tragedy of the current system. Chief constables apologise when these cases come to light and promise to do better, but history repeats itself time after time. The Government set great store by guidance; the police and probation services are awash with it, but it is not read, it has no teeth and very little has changed in 20 years. Serial perpetrators and stalkers are simply not visible or held to account, even though past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. We know that they are transient; they seek to control the most vulnerable women and children, and if that includes moving across borders to meet their needs, they will do so.

There is no duty on the police to add any information or intelligence about a perpetrator’s previous offending to a local or national system; if information is put into the local system, it often lacks the detail required. The burden is placed on the victim and too often the perpetrator’s narrative is believed rather than the victim’s. As my noble friend said, how many times do we see the depressing response from the police that women in the wake of these terrible crimes should stay indoors at night for their own safety? It is as if it is women’s responsibility and, essentially, they are to blame.

My noble friend also referred to the 2014 to 2017 inspections by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary into the police response to domestic abuse perpetrators. The recommendations from these reports still have not been put in place locally or nationally. It is the same with homicide reviews. Why is that so? The reality is that domestic abuse and stalking responses are woefully underresourced. Misogyny and institutionalised sexism are rife and no amount of guidance will change that.

On data, the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is so right. Police forces do not have systematic ways of recording the same person, victim or perpetrator; hence, repeat victims or perpetrators are not spotted and no action is taken to protect and prevent. As she said, police forces do not share data systematically with each other apart from through the Police National Computer, which records only charges. The advice of LSE researchers Professor Tom Kirchmaier, Professor Jeffrey Grogger and Dr Ria Ivandic—which suggests that police forces should use machine learning predictions based on two-year criminal histories because it would be more effective—is ignored.

Last year, over 80 signatories, including charities such as Women’s Aid, Respect and Action for Children, as well as academics and individuals, called on the Government to invest in a perpetrator strategy. Nicole Jacobs, the designate domestic abuse commissioner said:

“I support the call on Government to publish a Strategy on Perpetrators of Domestic Abuse.”


As she said:

“Current prevention work is patchy and too often perpetrators go unchallenged and are not offered opportunities to change their abusive behaviour.”


If we are to better protect women and girls, the Government must act now to support these amendments and shift the focus onto the men who cause the fear, terror and violence. It is time, too, that we eradicated misogyny and sexism from our criminal justice system. It is time these dangerous domestic abusers and stalkers were registered and monitored in the same way as sex offenders, and that the victim’s right to safety and to live free of fear was realised and prioritised over an abuser’s right to freedom.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard
Monday 8th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am delighted to support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Campbell of Surbiton, to which my name is also attached. I, too, thank Stay Safe for its support in getting the experiences of disabled women into public view. My noble friend and other noble Lords have described the need for the amendments in this group. However, I will reiterate a few points, because there has been much discussion about whether the Domestic Abuse Bill is the correct vehicle to protect disabled people who are victims of domestic abuse. It is a very simple yes.

To say that either the Care Act 2014 or the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 adequately cover disabled people is fundamentally to misunderstand the relationship between a disabled person and their carer, as my noble friend Lady Campbell has movingly explained. It can be a complicated relationship, but that does not give any excuse or reason not to better understand it. I am pleased that there is far more understanding about coercive and controlling relationships, but we need to understand how these relationships affect everyone, including disabled people.

I see this in quite a simple way. Domestic abuse legislation is the correct vehicle because abuse takes place in a domestic setting and the relationship is very definitely intimate—just talk to any disabled person who receives care. Including this here will help with the wider understanding of the scale of the abuse against disabled people, but it is also important for the individuals who are experiencing it, if and when they seek support. I worry that, if disabled people are not included in this legislation, they will fall through the net of reporting and of subsequent support and it will push them into greater peril.

Some might believe that social care provision will protect disabled people through safeguarding procedures. Many disabled people who employ personal assistants or carers do not engage with social services or their safeguarding procedures. There are many reasons for this. Disabled people want independence and choice, but there can be a real fear that, if they go through this process, the assumption is that they will not be able to run their own care package and the direct payments and control may be taken back.

I was trying to think of another comparator. This is not a perfect one, but it could be understood more widely, perhaps, if one thinks of a single mother avoiding social service help because she fears that her children might be taken away or that she might lose personal control of her situation. There is a different debate to be held about the regulation of carers, but the unique situation and the specialised or individualised nature of the support that a disabled person requires mean that carers do not necessarily come into the role regulated, well trained and managed.

The view that disabled people should not be treated differently from non-disabled people is admirable and in most cases I would strongly support it, but we have to recognise that the lived daily experience of disabled people is not equal in our society and there are significant amounts of discrimination. We are a long way from equality. Equity would be ensuring that disabled people were not left behind by this legislation.

I am concerned that the views of disabled people have not been adequately sought in this legislation. I ask the Minister which groups of disabled women have been consulted during this process. Given the significant number of disabled people impacted by domestic abuse, it is imperative that the amendment be accepted.

I am very much looking forward to the new government strategy for disabled people, which I understand is due shortly. If the Government are serious about protecting and supporting disabled people, they should accept the amendment or produce their own version of it. I would be delighted to speak further with the Minister and the Bill team, but if my noble friend decides to test the opinion of the House at any stage, not only will she have significant support but I will metaphorically follow her through the Lobby.

[Lord Cormack (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I have rarely heard a series of more moving speeches, beginning with that of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton; she always speaks with authority but today she exceeded herself. I was moved too by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, whom I have the privilege of following, and by my noble friend Lord Shinkwin, who spoke with a quiet, intense passion. I hope the Minister will be able to give encouragement.

I have often referred to this Bill, and I have done so again today, as a landmark Bill. If it is to be truly a landmark Bill, it has to be all-embracing. There can be no more sensitive relationship of a domestic nature than that between a disabled person, particularly if we are dealing with a severely disabled person, and those who care for her or him. I feel very strongly that the Bill should include what, in a sense, is the most domestic of all relationships. I have no personal experience but I have vicarious experience: my mother in her last years depended very much upon carers, and so did my wife’s mother in her last years. One sees how that relationship is fundamental to the comfort, indeed the very survival, of those being cared for.

It really is the most appalling abuse of all if a vulnerable disabled person is abused by their carer. We all know that it happens because we have seen instances of relatives having to install video cameras in care homes. We have seen some terrible examples of people in their own homes being abused and taken financial advantage of, and indeed every other sort of advantage, by those upon whom they depend for their very existence.

I very much hope it will not be necessary to divide the House on this issue because I hope the Minister will be able to tell us, if she cannot accept these amendments, that she will come back with her own at Third Reading. There are many honourable precedents for that in our legislation and our legislative process, and it would be sad if the House were divided on a subject on which I am sure we are all fundamentally united: that disabled persons deserve respect, care and consideration and to be protected from any who might transgress in looking after them.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the previous group. The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, has had many decades of campaigning for older people. I know that she had a long-standing friendship with my father, both when he was a Member of this House and in his days in local authorities, and that it was of great benefit to him.

Amendment 171 looks at another group of people—those who suffer from some form of disability—who are also disproportionately affected by domestic abuse. The amendment would repeal what has been labelled by some as the “carer’s defence” under Section 76 of the 2015 Act. Domestic abuse of disabled people has not been discussed as part of the Bill so far, and it is not generally discussed.

When abuse against disabled people is discussed, it is usually in the context of safeguarding issues. The disabled people are labelled as vulnerable adults and the carer’s defence is that their behaviour is reasonable and justified, given the nature of their caring responsibilities. The defence in the carer’s defence is that there could be a wrongful conviction of a carer for coercive and controlling behaviour when the carer was acting in the disabled person’s best interests. They might say, “I did it for their own good”—an expression often used by abusers who are also carers, and the courts might let them off with that defence.

The statistics on the abuse of disabled people are frightening and grim, and I imagine that we will hear more of them from my co-signatory, the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, but I will give a couple of statistics which have been brought to my attention.

Disabled adults are at least one and a half times more likely to be a victim of domestic abuse than non-disabled adults. Disabled women are up to three times more likely to experience domestic abuse from their family members. Some of these abusers will also be their carers. I believe it is highly likely that those figures are an underestimate, as disabled people often find reporting crime difficult, and DA survivors often find it more difficult to access the help that they need.

There is a proper place for a carer’s defence. Genuine carers must be able to protect themselves from malicious allegations, but I argue that other Acts do this better—namely, the Care Act 2014 and the Mental Capacity Act 2005. Both provide proper protection for genuine carers.

This Bill is about domestic abuse and how to tackle its many manifestations and protect victims. Too often, disabled victims are ignored. Through the Bill, the Government have an opportunity to show that they are listening to disabled victims, who can be fully acknowledged with this landmark legislation. With the carer’s defence being found in other legislation, my amendment would not dilute the central message of the Bill, which is that all forms of domestic abuse are unacceptable. Disabled victims, too, need to be fully reflected in the Bill. I beg to move.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, in speaking to this amendment, I draw your Lordships’ attention to my declaration of interests, and I am vice-chair of the Local Government Association.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for comprehensively covering the reason for tabling the amendment, and I am delighted that my name is added to it. It is a very difficult issue to raise. There are many, many kind carers out there, but we should recognise that some are not. I know that some people have difficulty with this being debated as part of a domestic abuse vehicle and question whether it is the right vehicle for raising the issues, but I argue that it is, because many cases of abuse occur in a domestic situation.

It is incredibly difficult for disabled people to raise these issues when not only personal care but control of transport and money and the ability to get out might be at stake. We know from various pieces of work that it is very difficult for disabled people to raise these issues. The Equality and Human Rights Commission, in its work from November 2020 entitled Survival, Recovery and Justice: Specialist Services for Survivors of Domestic Abuse, said that disabled women are already disproportionately impacted by domestic abuse. In its 2017 report, SafeLives says that they are

“twice as likely to experience domestic abuse as non-disabled women”

and

“four times more likely to report abuse from multiple perpetrators”.

The charity Stay Safe East, which supports disabled survivors of domestic abuse, considers that the defence has the potential to prolong the abuse of disabled victims, to prevent victims getting justice and to disadvantage disabled victims of coercive control. This is particularly concerning in a context where disabled survivors already experience abuse for longer before seeking help. According to the SafeLives work from 2017, called Disabled Survivors Too, on average disabled victims wait for 3.3 years before accessing support, compared with 2.3 years for non-disabled victims.

A statutory framework is already in place to involve professionals where a person might lack capacity and require medication or confinement—for example, the procedures under the Mental Capacity Act or the Mental Health Act—and there is protection from criminal liability for carers of people who lack capacity. Should a person not lack capacity, they have the right to refuse medication or other treatments or restraints. Nobody should be subject to coercive or controlling behaviour by a spouse or carer, and the law should not provide lesser protection just because somebody is disabled.

There is a high bar for the crime of coercive control. Behaviour must cause a victim serious alarm or distress and have a substantial adverse effect on their day-to-day activities. We should consider the best-interests defence and the risks of it, as it could enable potential abusers to justify that behaviour by claiming that they were acting in the disabled person’s best interests. It also risks feeding into the stereotypes of disabled people, which suggest that they lack autonomy.

We are living in an increasingly paternalistic and ableist world. I know from my personal experience of the pandemic, because I have not been out every day and carrying out my normal line of work, how much resilience disabled people need to deal with their day-to-day experiences, when they are not being believed or having their views accepted. This applies to simple things. Even before our first lockdown, when I was travelling on public transport people felt able to ask me whether I was able to make the right decision about whether to get on a bus or Tube in London, whether to wear my coat out or what I should do with my purse in a shop.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 27th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 23, 28 and 62 in this group, to which my name is attached. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for moving the first of these amendments and for comprehensively covering their purpose. I draw your Lordships’ attention to my entry in the register of interests in that I am a vice-chair of the Local Government Association.

Amendments 23 and 28, supported by London School of Economics research, make explicit the importance of utilising data and technology in the prevention, reporting and detection of domestic abuse and the commissioner’s important role in supporting this. Examples include encouraging the use of new “silent” methods of reporting abuse—especially important during lockdown—and using artificial intelligence methods, alongside better data usage, to determine the likelihood of repeated abuse.

Amendment 62, again based on LSE research, would ensure that, when the need for a handing out a domestic abuse protection notice was being considered, senior police officers could take into account any previous related criminality and convictions held by the alleged perpetrator. LSE research has shown that previous convictions can be a key indicator of the potential for future incidents of domestic abuse and yet are not currently taken into account when they should be regarded as a priority by any police officer considering handing out a DAPN.

Having access to the criminal history of the alleged perpetrator should be a crucial aspect of decision-making. The amendment would improve data sharing to strengthen the ability of the police to make informed, and potentially life-saving, decisions. It would enable immediate protection for survivors following a domestic abuse incident; for example, by requiring a perpetrator to leave the victim’s home for up to 48 hours.

Currently, there are many significant issues with data sharing that can have serious effects on police forces’ ability to identify, prevent and tackle domestic abuse. Not having a systematic way of recording the same person, victim or perpetrator often means that repeat victims or perpetrators are not spotted or that no action is taken to protect and prevent.

Moreover, police forces do not share data systematically, apart from the police national computer, and that only records charges. Even more concerning, there is no data or systematic information exchange between non-profit and police, so abusers are able to be invisible to the police. That is a particular worry right now, when many people are hidden from sight.

There are many examples of where better use of technology and data can help tackle abuse, including helping to determine what level of danger someone may be in so that they can receive help as quickly as possible, and prioritising police resources and responding to domestic abuse calls accordingly. Using machine-learning prediction will go a long way to supporting those who desperately need it.

[The Earl of Lytton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I added my name to speak to this group, primarily in support of Amendment 23. I, too, declare my vice-presidency of the Local Government Association. This matter has been magisterially covered by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, so anything I say will be a mere shadow of what he and the other speakers have put down.

I, too, received the briefings, both before Second Reading and more recently, from the London School of Economics. I pay great tribute to it for having brought that matter to the attention of Members of this House. At Second Reading, I and other noble Lords—in particular the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, who has just spoken—commented on the failure of crime recording to pick up many cases, particularly cases of domestic abuse. In defence of those who are charged with the recording of suspected crimes, especially domestic abuse, they are often difficult to identify in the snowstorm of all the other issues that may be involved. Indeed, domestic abuse may not be the primary purpose of the initiating call to the police or some other agency.

Professor Gadd of the University of Manchester, to whom I had the privilege of speaking last week, suggested to me that we need to be much more curious in our responses to crime, and in particular possible abuse. Complex patterns of behaviour and the way in which they manifest themselves are meat and drink to data analysts. It seems to me that if big tech companies can build up accurate pictures of all our various spending preferences and other things, so too can algorithms help us spot and codify trends of abuse.

I do not claim expertise in artificial intelligence, but I know about the need for accurate input data and, of course, we have had problems with police recorded crime. This obviously has not been helped by failings to record offences in, I would say, several police forces over quite a number of years and, of course, the recent loss of data from the police national computer. Even so, the negative prediction rate of 11.5%, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to and which the LSE comments on, must be a matter for some significant concern, given the proportion that domestic violence, and repeat behaviour of that, represents as a component of all crime. Any machine-learned means of reducing this, and with it the tragic outcomes that cost this country so much in torment and treasure, must have a place. That is why I support this group of amendments, and Amendment 23 in particular.

However, collecting all the data in the world, as has been pointed out, is not going to be a great deal of use if it is not consistently collated, made available at the right time and shared with people who have a need to see it at the appropriate moment. The sort of checklists that have been referred to under the DASH system—a number of standard questions, consistently recorded, collated and available at the earliest possible stages of a proposed intervention—would, I am certain, be invaluable. There, I am satisfied that technology can help. I do not think that this requires reinvention but better management, oversight and adoption of appropriate IT systems. This would help reduce human errors and omissions. Above all, it is about avoiding unnecessary risk and optimising resources, as has been pointed out. This necessitates good training of call handlers and, as I say, being altogether more inquisitive and interrogative of data and callers to see what is actually lying behind the call. Otherwise, I do not think that we will make the best use of what IT offers. That apart, I believe that these amendments are extremely important in pointing a way forward.

Domestic Abuse Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I draw your Lordships’ attention to my entry on the register of interests. I am delighted that we have the opportunity to consider this Bill and I support many of the comments already made, such as those of the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, on non-fatal strangulation, and of others who have raised the threat to share intimate images. It is also an opportunity to tackle the inequality faced by deaf and disabled survivors in finding safety and support, to recognise the scale of the abuse and not to assume it will be covered by other legislation.

Many in your Lordships’ Chamber have covered the increase in domestic abuse during the pandemic, but there have been some rays of light. I congratulate the railway companies, through the Rail Delivery Group, which have run a scheme called Rail to Refuge, giving free tickets to enable people to travel to a refuge. They have already helped 836 people, including 210 children, find escape.

However, the number of people who are experiencing and will continue to experience abuse is still too stark. I thank Stay Safe East and all the other organisations that have provided information for this debate. Disabled women are three to four times more likely to experience abuse and are likely to experience multiple forms of abuse. Domestic abuse, much like disability hate crime, is poorly recognised and understood when the intersectionality of disability is added into the equation. In 2018, the Office for National Statistics reported that 16.8% of women with long-term illness or disability were subjected to domestic abuse, compared with 6.3% of non-disabled women. All those figures are too high, and we must work to reduce them.

Also in 2018, the BBC’s 100 Women submitted freedom of information requests to find out about accessibility of refuges. Of the 131 councils which responded, 20 had no accessible spaces and only 11% of individual domestic violence space is fully accessible.

It is not easy to leave an abusive environment, especially if you are a disabled mother or father, as your competency is often, and continually, questioned, purely because you are disabled. Many disabled parents have told me—and I have personal experience of this, away from domestic abuse cases—that it is doubted that someone who is disabled could either be in a relationship or be a parent, and it is all too frequently asked whether they can be a good parent. This makes many disabled people afraid to raise their head above the parapet.

We must also be mindful that abuse can occur in many ways towards disabled people, which goes beyond physical and sexual abuse and can also include controlling access to disability-related equipment, communication devices or medication; rough treatment when assisting; controlling access to transport and finance; and, for some, through benefits or care support.

Through this Bill, we must take into account the living situation of disabled people, where abuse can take place from partners, family members and paid or unpaid carers, or where they have created a “family of choice”. While many carers are indeed wonderful, I believe we need further debate on the “carer’s defence” and “best interests” defence.

Finally, it is my intention to table amendments that would seek to support deaf and disabled people.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the introduction of the Bill. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I am interested in accessibility, but also in the integration of services. I declare an interest as a board member of Transport for London. I hope the Minister does not think me presumptuous but I was going to offer an answer to the noble Lord, Lord True. Unfortunately he is not in his place at the moment but I will make sure to speak to him afterwards.

The Bill does not have an impact on the operations of Transport for London—it applies outside London—but TfL has offered support to the cities that wish to be able to specify service quality and introduce integrated fares and ticketing. It has provided a lot of support to Transport for Greater Manchester, with detailed advice on the technical aspects of franchising, stakeholder engagement and communications. It has worked with the Urban Transport Group to make a case for local control. It has also offered MPs and Peers a visit to the control centre—if anyone has not done that, it is a really interesting experience to see not only how complicated the system is in London but how well it can work.

I also declare an interest in that I am a regular bus user in London, though not in the north-east where I live because of issues with access, routes and timetabling. I am hugely fortunate in that I have a car; but as a disabled person, if I did not have access to a car I would find it almost impossible to get to work or even to have a social life and be an ordinary member of the public.

I believe that there is massive potential for integrated travel. In Committee, I would like to explore further provision of an Oyster-style payment while making sure that discounted travel for disabled people is not lost as part of the process. I would not want to exclude disabled people from using public transport on cost grounds. Cost has been raised with me by a number of organisations and individuals.

I would like to explore a few issues further. There is little mention of Ring and Ride or Dial-a-Ride in the Bill. This is where I am quite conflicted, because as a disabled person, I am very fortunate that I do not have to use Dial-a-Ride. Although the booking system in London has improved significantly, it still relies on availability, which is not always good. However, with another hat on, I wholeheartedly support the use of Dial-a-Ride because there are still a number of people who, whether because of a psychological or physical barrier, would find it difficult to use transport even if it were more accessible. We could be much smarter about how we use Dial-a-Ride, whether it is for visits to hospitals, schools, work or college. The National Union of Students has said that 45% of students whose weekly fare is between £10 and £19.99 have considered giving up their course because they cannot afford it. For disabled students who do not qualify for higher-rate personal independence payment, this can make it difficult for them to travel and creates yet another barrier to getting disabled people into work.

I will be very honest: I never used a bus at all until London won the right to host the Olympics and Paralympics. When I met the then Transport for London commissioner, Sir Peter Hendy, he asked me whether I used buses. I said I did not think that I had or was likely to, as they were not accessible, and in his inimitable style, he marched me out of the reception and made me get on a bus. He showed me how easy it was to use buses. However, having grown up without the experience of using the bus—and having no idea of how to use a bus timetable or navigate my way round London—I realised how difficult it is for some people to see it as a serious option.

A number of disabled people regularly tweet and post on social media about the general difficulty of using buses and how they have been made to feel. A member of the public called Mike Hughes, who is visually impaired, tweeted information about his daily bus journey for a whole year and even I, as a person with some understanding of the issue, found the challenges he faced incredibly interesting. It is not just about accessibility to the bus but about making sure that the camber of the pavements is right, the kerbs are dropped and have the correct height, and tactile paving has been provided. I should add that although tactile paving is good for visually impaired people, it can cause difficulty for wheelchair users. We need to think about all these other things as well to make it possible for disabled people to use public transport.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, who unfortunately is not in her place, raised some really valid points about insurance and the ability of disabled people to travel together. My husband is a part-time wheelchair user so on the days when he uses his chair, I would not be able to travel on a bus with him. I was tempted to make an offer to the noble Baroness—that we should leave here and see how far we can get on a bus if we travel together. It is about having flexibility and empowering the bus driver by providing the appropriate training to make decisions regarding the size of the chair, scooter or buggy. Unfortunately, an awful lot of what we have heard in the press recently about disabled people using public transport and buggies on buses has turned the issue into an argument of us against them. That is really unfortunate because, in a great many cases, it does not need to be like that.

The case of Doug Paulley v FirstGroup has already been raised. One of the issues here is that the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations, which make it unlawful to refuse a wheelchair user, have no enforcement body. Perhaps that is something that we can sort out through the regulations or guidance accompanying the Bill. It is completely crazy that under the PSVA regulations, you can be directed to leave a bus if you are causing a nuisance, if the condition is likely to be offensive, or if the person may soil the vehicle or the clothing of another passenger, but not if you are blocking a wheelchair user accessing transport. That is something that I would very much like to explore further.

As for my own personal experience of travelling on buses, fairly recently I was trying to get a bus into central London. A mum with a buggy was already on the bus. She had a four year-old, a two year-old and a baby in the buggy, and the bus driver very kindly asked whether she would take the baby out of the buggy. My personal view was that that was not a safe way for the mum to travel with two toddlers. Unfortunately the bus driver was not able to let me—or did not feel comfortable letting me—and the buggy fit in the space together, even though that would have been the perfect solution because there was space for us to do that. As a disabled parent, I never try taking my daughter in a buggy on a bus, but I would like to see what would happen, or who you would have to leave behind, if a parent had to do that. It is just about making sensible decisions about how disabled people are able to travel. The situation for me in London was absolutely fine, because a bus came along less than five minutes later, but that does not happen in the north-east of England where I live. That is one of the reasons why we have to be really smart about how we do this.

Transport for London is being very proactive in one area. I was recently at a conference where it brought parents and wheelchair users together to discuss lots of different options. One thing that came out of that was that TfL recently launched a competition looking at the best size of buggy to take on a London bus. It is not advising people which buggy to buy, but about what is the most sensible size. Again, this is a really positive step forward.

I welcome provisions in the Bill around customer satisfaction. It is massively important to measure that, but if disabled people cannot get on a bus, then their customer satisfaction does not count. Again, it comes back to the point that if we are really serious about getting more disabled people into work, we have to make travelling better for them. The consequences of not being able to travel are that they will be very isolated and kept away from society.

A number of noble Lords have already raised issues around training, which is massively important. On my journey here this morning—which 99 times out of 100 goes without a hitch—there was that dreaded moment when the ramp did not quite work. The bus doors would not close and the ramp couldn’t come in. Although I am very resilient, even I felt this sense of dread that I was stopping a fairly full busload of people from getting to their jobs. However, it was handled brilliantly in that the bus driver did not treat me as if I was a hindrance: he explained to the other passengers what was happening and sorted out the problem, so that in less than a couple of minutes we were moving again. But these are the sorts of barriers that disabled people face. You do not want to get in the way of other people, and that is sometimes how you feel.

The audio-visual announcements are incredibly important for me as well. The rules say that a wheelchair user on a bus has to face backwards, which means, as the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, that you cannot see the signs. I leave it to your Lordships’ imaginations to think about this, but when buses are very full and people are crammed in, you cannot physically see the signs anyway. If you are going on a new journey, you have no idea where to get off, and even if you are going on a journey that you do very regularly, it is quite difficult to look out the window and take a guess about where you are. For me, the audio-visual announcements would make a big difference to everybody.

Finally, I am very keen on looking at the opportunities that open data provide with the development of new apps. It just makes it very exciting in terms of being able to give disabled people lots of new information to help them decide how to travel. That gives me a lot of hope for the future that we can encourage more disabled people to think about how they use public transport. I very much look forward to the next stages of the Bill.

Transport for London Bill [HL]

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2016 Grand Committee

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a board member of Transport for London, which is a public body constituted under the Greater London Authority Act 1999, as listed in the register of interests.

The first part of the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asks the Committee to note the delay in the progress of the Bill. I thank the Minister for giving a brief history of the slow transition of the Bill. Following the debate on 16 March 2015, time ran out to debate all the amendments tabled by opposition MPs, and the debate was adjourned. At that point, TfL asked the House authorities to table a revival Motion following the State Opening of Parliament. This was tabled and the Motion was blocked. TfL subsequently asked the House authorities for a debate on the revival Motion in order to overcome the blocking Motion. Time was allocated on 16 November 2015, when the Commons voted to revive the Bill. On 30 November 2015, the revival Motion in the House of Lords was withdrawn when the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked to speak to the Bill, leading to this debate before the revival Motion on the Bill can be tabled again. The revival Motion is tabled for 9 February, after this debate, and only at that stage can the Bill progress through its next stages in the Commons.

Although the Bill has had a long passage through Parliament, it remains relevant and important as it will provide TfL with additional powers, so that it can meet its business needs more flexibly and take advantage of more efficient arrangements for the stewardship of its financial affairs. London’s growth is relentless. It is driving up demand for our services. There is record ridership on the Tube and on the roads. To keep London working and growing, TfL has to invest just to keep assets in good repair, modernise the rail and road networks and continue to improve reliability. TfL’s £11 billion capital funding settlement from government covers the period from 2015-16 to 2020-21, and includes a total of £5.8 billion in investment grant, £1.4 billion in general grant from the Department for Transport, alongside £3.8 billion in borrowing powers. This allows TfL to continue to invest some £1.7 billion a year to modernise London’s road and rail networks. The Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines will be the next four Tube lines to be upgraded.

From 2019, TfL’s objective is to cover all the operational costs of running the Tube and bus networks in London through non-DfT grant sources of income. It has planned for some time to achieve operational breakeven by running its business more effectively and efficiently. As part of a continuous savings programme, TfL has already taken 15% out of its costs.

Following the spending review in November, TfL must now accelerate and build upon its cost reduction programme because the revenue grant is being cut faster than anticipated, reducing its overall income by £2.8 billion over the period to 2020-21. The Bill will help TfL with this task by providing it with additional powers so that it can run its business more flexibly and take advantage of more efficient and economic financial arrangements. This will allow TfL to maximise the value of its assets, bear down on fares and deliver significantly better value for money to the public.

The second part of the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asks the House to note,

“the case for land disposed of under the provisions of that Bill being used to increase social housing”.

The provisions of the Bill do not give TfL any new or additional powers to dispose of an interest in or develop its land, contrary to assertions made. TfL has had powers to dispose of land since it was created in 2000 and the Bill makes no reference to them nor does it expand them in any way.

Under its existing powers, TfL must obtain the consent of the mayor to dispose of an interest in its land by sale or granting a long-term lease. If that land is operational, or has been operational land in the past five years, the Secretary of State must also give his or her consent. The Bill does not affect these arrangements.

Using these existing powers, TfL has already begun to undertake development on its land, and will be developing more than 300 acres of land to help create more than 10,000 new homes across London using its existing powers. TfL is working with the mayor, London borough councils and the commercial property development sector to bring forward developments in an innovative and creative way. TfL is committed to ensuring that it can achieve the right balance between providing affordable homes, delivering revenues to reinvest in the transport network and delivering local transport improvements. Local authorities set the levels of affordable housing in their areas in accordance with local policy. TfL currently works closely with local authorities, and will continue to do so, at each of its sites and engages in active discussions on a site-by-site basis to ensure that development plans reflect local borough priorities and needs.

TfL has established a commercial development advisory group which provides non-executive guidance to its commercial development programme. The group includes experienced advisers who have expertise in social and affordable housing provision. TfL has recently submitted three major planning applications which will deliver £100 million in revenue for investing in the transport network, a new step-free Tube station and 600 homes with affordable housing levels ranging up to 40%.

The proposed development above the new Nine Elms Tube station will deliver 362 new homes—around 25% of which will be affordable—2,318 square metres of office, 550 square metres of retail, a new public square, play space, pedestrian and cycle connections, cycle parking, and disabled car parking. Revenue generated from the new development will support the funding of the Northern line extension.

The proposed development at Northwood will deliver 127 homes, around 20% of which will be affordable, as well as a new Tube station with step-free access and a new bus and train interchange. It will also deliver a new public space and 300 parking spaces, as well as 1,300 square metres of retail floor space. TfL is exploring options to accommodate existing tenants in the development and is providing relocation options to assist them in continuous trade.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for her contribution—her comments about Parsons Green have been noted. The proposed development is on the site of a former London Underground depot adjacent to Parsons Green Tube station, which is currently used as workspace. The scheme will deliver 119 new homes, 40% of which will be affordable, as well as over 4,000 square metres of retail, workspace and restaurants. The development will also support around 300 jobs and enable the opening of three arches for commercial use.

The Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, raises a wider issue of policy concerning the disposal or development of land by the public sector generally, not just TfL. However, the discrete scope of the Bill should be taken as indicative of a desire by TfL to meet its business needs more flexibly and cost effectively. The provisions of the Bill will impact on TfL’s ability to manage its financial affairs more efficiently and flexibly, which will assist it in being able to operate effectively and bear down on fares, while still being able to provide a world-class transport network.

To summarise the Bill’s provisions, Clause 4 will give TfL subsidiaries the ability to access cheaper finance, subject to the consent of the mayor and, in respect of core operational assets, the consent of the Secretary of State. Clause 5 would have allowed TfL to form limited partnerships subject to the consent of the Secretary of State by way of order debated in both Houses of Parliament. However, TfL took note of the strength of feeling in the House of Commons during the revival debate about this clause. TfL recognises that, notwithstanding the amendments which were made to that clause by the Opposed Bill Committee, concerns remain about the possible future exercise of the powers which would be conferred by Clause 5. Accordingly, if the Bill is revived in the House of Lords, amendments will be tabled in the House of Commons at consideration stage to remove Clause 5 and references to limited partnerships from the Bill.

Clause 6 expands the list of entities through which TfL can undertake commercial activities to include limited liability partnerships and companies limited by guarantee, thus enabling TfL to conduct its affairs more flexibly and net the maximum value from its assets. Clause 7 gives TfL greater flexibility to mitigate its risks through hedging, including by allowing TfL to hedge commodity prices when it is exposed to fluctuations as a consequence of a transport contract and TfL’s contribution risk to the pension fund. In view of the significant benefits that it will bring to TfL, it is essential that the Bill becomes law as soon as possible.