Diego Garcia Military Base and British Indian Ocean Territory Bill

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

2nd reading
Tuesday 4th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, for her closing speech. It was exactly the kind of speech I would have expected from her. It was forensic and detailed, asking absolutely legitimate questions that any respectable Opposition should put to a Government proposing this kind of Bill. I will try to answer all her questions— I was writing as quickly as I could—but I may not get through them all. The idea of a letter in the Library, explaining the detail so that everybody can see what we have to say, is a very good one. I would be happy to do that.

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. It has been lively, as I suspected it might be. I might say that I agreed with some contributions more than others, and some were probably better informed than others, but that is the nature of these things. I will endeavour to respond to all the points raised by noble Lords, and we will, I hope, have further discussions in Committee on many of those.

I would like to remind the House why we are scrutinising and reviewing a Bill sent to us from the other place. The Bill is essential to ensure that the treaty with Mauritius can be ratified, a treaty that is fundamental to safeguarding the operations of a critical UK-US base on Diego Garcia and to the security of British people. As the noble Lord, Lord Jay, said, the Bill is also vital to protecting the British citizenship rights of Chagossians.

Noble Lords have questioned the legal rationale for this deal and asked what court could give a binding judgment. Let me set this out again: as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, explained well in his speech, if a long-term deal had not been reached, it is highly likely that further wide-ranging litigation would have been brought quickly against the UK. Both the International Agreements Committee and the International Relations and Defence Committee, in scrutinising the treaty, heard evidence of where these binding judgments could come from.

One possibility is that Mauritius would find a dispute under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea that it could bring before an arbitral tribunal under Annexe VII of the convention. That also raises the prospect that Mauritius would seek provisional measures from the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea. Provisional measures of this type and the decision of an arbitral tribunal would each be legally binding on the UK. A further possibility is that a dispute under a multilateral treaty could be brought before the International Court of Justice. A judgment delivered in the manner by the ICJ in disputes between states may also be legally binding.

There are those—we have had this ever since we started debating this issue—who question where this binding judgment might arise, but they are fundamentally missing the point here. The risk was real. International courts were already reaching judgments on the basis that Mauritius had sovereignty, and this in turn, as my noble friend Lord Browne explained, put the base at real risk. The point is that the treaty with Mauritius prevents that happening in the future.

Noble Lords are perfectly entitled to take a different view on the extent of that risk; that is absolutely their right. The Government’s view is that that risk is real. Having that view, any responsible Government making that assessment has to seek to resolve it and to come to some lasting, legally enforceable arrangement with Mauritius. That is why we did the deal. Noble Lords are entitled to disagree with the Government, and I have absolutely no issue with that, but please do not impute some sort of bad intent or motive around political correctness, colonialism or any of those things. Our intention is to secure that base for the benefit of the security of our country. We did it so an agreement could be concluded on our terms, rather than it being forced upon us so that we would have to accept the imposition of an arrangement that would not have been in our favour.

I am interpreting the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, on the overseas territories as an invitation to the Government to restate their longstanding and clear commitment to all our overseas territories. The Conservatives, at some points in these debates, although not recently—the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, never did this, but others did—would raise the issue of the Falkland Islands. I thought that that was the height of irresponsibility, and I am very glad that they no longer attempt to bring that question into these discussions, because it was wrong that they did that.

This treaty has a complex resolution process attached to it because it needs to be long-lasting, and we are trying to cover every eventuality that might arise. That is a really good subject for us to get into in Committee, and we must test that to make sure that we have got that right. I have every confidence that the noble Baroness and her colleagues will bring to us situations that we need to hold up against that process, to make sure that we have got that right.

On the notification of activities of third countries with our consent, there is a notification there. I think that is right, but it is not in any way conditional. We do not need consent. It is not about permission or any of those things. I hope that that is helpful.

On the ability to make law, we had an interesting discussion at the briefing about royal prerogative and the ability of the King to make law in Diego Garcia. We need to get into that in Committee. There will be things in the Bill that, when I was sitting in the noble Baroness’s place, I would have been asking questions about, such as powers and flexibilities, the ability of Ministers to make decisions, and the various methodologies. I expect we will be having long discussions about negative and affirmative procedures, for example, and law-making power is one such issue.

I want to address some of the points that were made regarding the Chagossian community. As I stated in my opening speech, this Government deeply regret how the Chagossians were removed from the islands. This is a community that the Government are committed to working with and supporting in the months and years ahead. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. She made a compelling and genuine contribution on this important issue, as did the noble Lord, Lord Horam, and I commend those who have been working on this for very many years. She did her party proud, and I respect the longstanding commitment that she and others have had.

The Bill ensures that there will be no adverse impact on Chagossians’ nationality rights as a result of the treaty. Chagossians will not lose their current rights to hold or claim British citizenship, and no one will lose existing British Overseas Territory citizenship status. The Bill does, however, remove Chagossians’ ability to acquire British Overseas Territory citizenship in the future, because once the treaty comes into force, BIOT will not be an overseas territory.

On the trust fund, the noble Lord, Lord Horam, raised the possibility of an exchange of letters on the future treatment of Chagossians under this fund. This is, again, a genuine issue that we ought to explore. I appreciate that noble Lords will want more detail on how the trust fund will operate. I look forward to discussing this in Committee. Who knows? We might be able to reach some sort of agreement on that issue.

On the citizenship law, which was raised by one or two noble Lords opposite—it may have been the noble Lord, Lord Hannan—there have been mentions of section 76B of the Mauritian criminal code and concerns that Chagossians are leaving Mauritius for fear of being prosecuted for their affiliation with the UK. This is really important: no one has ever been prosecuted under this law; but just because no one has ever been subject to it, that does not make it right. Last week, the Mauritian Government repealed this section, and, as of April 2025, 94% of Chagossians with British nationality also had Mauritian citizenship.

On the right to self-determination, there have been questions during the debate, and leading up to it, about consultation with Chagossians. The negotiations on the treaty were necessarily between states—the UK and Mauritius—and it is true that we have prioritised the operation of the base on Diego Garcia. That has been our priority. There may be people here who disagree with that and who would have preferred us to prioritise other issues, and I respect their right to hold that view, but that is not the view of the Government. We wanted to protect the base.

There were some, including the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, who raised the right to self-determination for the Chagossians. I have followed the noble Baroness’s career for many years; I do not know why, but I have always been rather attached to following what she does and says, and I have a real long-standing respect for her. I completely understand why she wants to raise this issue, and why it matters so much to her. The fact is that the Chagos Archipelago has no permanent population and has never been self-governing. No question of self-determination for its population, therefore, legally arises.

The English courts, noting the conclusion of the ICJ in the 2019 advisory opinion, have proceeded on the basis that the relevant right to self-determination in the context of BIOT was that of Mauritians rather than Chagossians. Both the English courts and the European Court of Human Rights have considered, in a series of judgments since the 1970s, the related but distinct question of an alleged right of abode or other rights said to flow from that. On each occasion, the English courts and the European Court of Human Rights have ultimately dismissed these claims. The transfer of sovereignty, therefore, does not deprive Chagossians of any existing rights. This is a long-standing legal position that previous UK Governments have also adopted, including in claims brought as recently as 2020. That all sounds very legalistic and cold; nevertheless, that is the legal position as it stands.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

I thank the Minister for addressing this issue, because it has become a real touchpoint in the general populace. Does she agree that, while we might differ on the legality issue, there is a moral duty on the Government to engage with the Chagossians, who feel so let down, not just by this Government—I made that very clear—but by the whole political establishment in this country?

British Indian Ocean Territory: Sovereignty

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Thursday 3rd July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

What is useful in the noble Baroness’s contribution is that she draws attention to the fact that, under this treaty, Chagossians will be able to visit the outer islands and resettle, should that be feasible, with co-operation from the Government of Mauritius. That is by no means a straightforward undertaking when there is a complete lack of services. We should not talk about it lightly. There will also be the ability to visit Diego Garcia. These visits stopped some years ago, so their recommencement will be a welcome development.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the right to visit is in the hands of the Mauritian Government, as is the trust fund that has been set up, which is capitalised by the United Kingdom Government? Therefore, Chagossians living in the United Kingdom, who have been denied their rights for so long, as we hear from all sides of the House, will be denied access to this trust fund.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We had to make a choice here. We could have prioritised the rights of the Chagossian community and enabled them to have the right to return and settle on Diego Garcia. That would have undermined the security and viability of the UK-US base, so we thought that was the wrong path to take. We have prioritised national security. The noble Baroness can disagree with that choice. She may suggest that she would have prioritised the Chagossians’ right to return. That is a pretty interesting position for any credible, responsible Government of the United Kingdom to adopt, and it is not one that we have chosen.

Afghanistan: Women

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Thursday 30th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is such an important point. The voices of Afghan women are suppressed in their own country, but we must provide platforms whenever we can to make sure that those voices are heard. I was very grateful to the Leader of the House recently for her enabling me to meet Malala here in our House. The right reverend Prelate is right, and we will continue to find whatever means we can to make sure that women in Afghanistan have the opportunity to speak on their own behalf.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, how are we using our influence at the United Nations to deal with these issues, particularly around education? Without education, those young girls will continue to be exploited, be badly treated and be at the risk of being married off.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful for that question. My noble friend the Minister for the Middle East, North Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan is using his convening mechanisms at the UN to raise these issues, garner international support and keep the spotlight on them. It is principally through these multinational fora that we are able to bring about the pressure that may be needed.

Embassy of China: Proposed New Site

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have so many jokes about size in my head at the moment— I am not going to go there. I note what my noble friend says. I do not think it is any surprise that China would want to have a substantial presence in London.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

Will the Minister confirm that if planning conditions are put on this new embassy, compliance with them will be sought? In Belfast, we had breaches of planning regulations with the Chinese consulate, yet they claimed diplomatic immunity and did not comply with those planning regulations.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is very important that any conditions that might be imposed are complied with. The noble Baroness is absolutely right to make that point.

Chagos Islands

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Thursday 23rd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Of course we are aware that the ICJ ruling is advisory—we have discussed it many times in this House—but just because that ruling was advisory does not mean that there would not be future rulings. We believe that we are in a stronger position to negotiate ahead of a binding ruling than we would be waiting for one. Interestingly, the previous Government shared that view, which is why they commenced two years and 11 or 12 rounds of negotiations themselves. We are working very closely with the new Administration in the United States, and we will talk to them in great detail about what this deal means.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, one of the groups that feels so alienated from this entire process is the Chagossians who live here in the United Kingdom. Since the deal was announced by the Government, there has been little to no engagement with that group. I plead with the Minister to engage with those people, who live here in the United Kingdom and have a clear view as to the way they want to see things happen.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is absolutely right that the noble Baroness raises the views of the Chagossian community, which has been badly treated over very many years. What matters now is that we are straightforward and upfront with them about what has been agreed, so that they do not feel that we are hiding things from them. We would be happy to engage with the Chagossian community. I believe my honourable friend Stephen Doughty, the Minister responsible for this arrangement, has met them in the recent past, but I will certainly take on board her encouragement that we do some more of that engagement.

Gaza: Peace Talks

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Wednesday 15th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is right. The United Kingdom Government stand ready to play a leading role in reconstruction and securing a stable Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel. Gaza’s recovery and reconstruction must be Palestinian led, though, and support for future governance of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza and maintaining the viability of a future Palestinian state are an important part of the UK’s approach.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, to follow on from the last question, it is vital that a sustainable reconciliation process happens, hopefully after any peace deal. Bearing in mind what happened with us in Northern Ireland dealing with domestic terrorism, is it not important to set rules in relation to any elections that take place to any Palestinian Authority? Would not those rules have to include a commitment to non-violence and recognition of the State of Israel?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

These issues of reconciliation and truth and the process that needs to be undergone are fiendishly difficult, as the noble Baroness has experienced and which we can see when we look at any of these processes anywhere in the world, from Chile to South Africa to Northern Ireland—and I hope in the future in Israel-Gaza. She made her point very well.

Sudan: US Determination of Genocide

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Tuesday 14th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as with all these things, there is much high politics, but meanwhile over 90% of children are not receiving schooling, as the Minister for Development in the other place pointed out yesterday. Can the Minister tell us some practical ways in which we can help those children to get the education they so desperately need?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is a really important point. Last summer my right honourable friend the Minister for Development, Anneliese Dodds, visited South Sudan on one of her first visits after her appointment. She got as close to the border as she could. She met many of the women and children who had been forced to flee and who had experienced the most awful violence. She has managed to secure a doubling of our aid to Sudan—it is now around £113 million—and that is for food, healthcare and, importantly, education, to make sure that those young people are educated as close to their homes as possible, because to miss out on that education just compounds the terrible circumstances in which they have found themselves.

British Indian Ocean Territory: Sovereignty

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Thursday 19th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Yes, this was something we wanted to secure as part of the negotiations. It is intended that the Chagossians will have the right to resettlement on the outer islands, but not on Diego Garcia, because that is where the military base is sited, and the view is that that would not be feasible or in our national security interests. But the noble Baroness is quite right in what she says.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as an adviser to the Friends of the British Overseas Territories charity. In the other place yesterday, the Minister repeatedly said that the interests of Chagossians were absolutely at the heart of this agreement. If that is so, why are so many Chagossians here campaigning against this deal? Will the noble Baroness respect the right to self-determination and grant the Chagossian people a referendum on the sovereignty of these islands?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

No, we will not be granting one. Bluntly, there is no point in stringing people along on these issues; that just compounds the wrong that has been done to them. The Chagos Islands have never been self-governing and the view among the Chagossian populations varies quite considerably. While there is a view among Chagossians here, we should be humble enough to accept that the largest Chagossian community is not in the UK but in Mauritius. That Chagossian community has been clear that it supports the deal, I suspect largely because of the point made my noble friend Lady Blackstone: that they would have that right to settle on the outer islands. The situation is not quite as straightforward as it is sometimes suggested.

Patrick Finucane

Debate between Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee and Baroness Chapman of Darlington

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is my understanding that inquests can be restarted as soon as the necessary steps are taken. The Government do not seek to delay that any longer than is absolutely necessary, for reasons that I am sure the noble Baroness can appreciate.

[Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)]

First, I take this opportunity to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, to her place dealing with Northern Ireland issues and look forward to working with her in the future. Today is the start of the Omagh bomb inquiry in Omagh, and I am sure the whole House will have the victims’ families in the forefront of their mind as they go through the start of what will be a very long procedure. Does the Minister agree that it is important that His Majesty’s Government never take any action or decision that would give the perception to victims right across Northern Ireland that some victims’ lives are worth more than others?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, for her welcome. I note, as she did, that today is the start of investigations into what happened in Omagh. On her point about all victims being treated with equal respect and concern, of course she is right.