Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, the news that our close allies in the US have assessed the situation in Sudan as genocide is, of course, deeply worrying. It underscores the terrible humanitarian situation going on there, something that we have debated extensively in this Chamber. Does the Minister agree that what is going on in Sudan is genocide? Does she agree with the Americans or with her ministerial colleague in the other place who said that this was a matter
“for the courts to decide”?”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/1/25; col. 36.]
What assessment have the Government made of the potential security and geopolitical implications of this ongoing—I will call it what it is—genocide in Sudan for the UK and its allies?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)
My Lords, what is happening in Sudan is abhorrent, and we should all condemn it in the strongest possible terms. When it comes to genocide, the noble Lord opposite will be aware that we take a different approach to making these determinations from that of our close allies and friends in the United States.
I am surprised at the way in which the noble Lord put his point to me. Much as we agree on the substance of what is happening in Sudan and wish to see it end, I am surprised at what he said because it contradicts what his noble friend the shadow Foreign Secretary, Priti Patel, said in the House of Commons just yesterday. She said that she understood very well that we take a different approach to the determination of genocide from that of our colleagues in the United States, and that is an approach that she supported in government and still supports in opposition.
I hope that, much as we can perhaps differ—and the noble Lord can take this up with his noble friend in the Commons should he wish—the important thing is that we use every tool we can, diplomatically and using our multilateral and bilateral connections and our humanitarian work on the ground, to make sure that we do everything possible to bring an end to this unbearable suffering being endured by the people of Sudan.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as I have ongoing work with Sudanese civilians in exile. At the weekend, I will be travelling to be with them and to facilitate dialogue. Does the Minister agree that, however it is termed, these are war crimes and atrocities, and there should be no impunity for those who have carried them out? It is now potentially 12 weeks from what would be the second anniversary of this terrible war, but there should not be a second anniversary, and that should focus everybody’s minds on there being an end and resolution to the war.
How are the UK Government supporting practical measures to ensure that there are safe zones, especially for education and health facilities; no-fly zones, especially for drones—including those that have been supplied by Iran and other countries; and no blockages of humanitarian and food aid? Countries in the Gulf and near neighbours should now cease the funding and provision of weapons to belligerents. All this now needs to take place to ensure an end to this war. I hope the Government are being very active, notwithstanding the previous Russian veto, to ensure that there is no second anniversary to this war.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
Nothing proves more sharply that the Russians care nothing for the lives of Africans than their terrible decision to vote as they did at the UN. As the noble Lord said, there must be no impunity here. That is why we are supporting fact-finding missions and evidence-gathering activity on the ground in Sudan. Whether or not determinations of genocide are made at a court in the future, it will need that evidence to enable it to make a sound decision. That has been the Government’s focus.
The noble Lord talked about other countries and their activities. All I can say is that any countries with any influence of any kind, or any relationship with any side—this is a multi-sided conflict now—must use that for one purpose only. That is to de-escalate, to bring those parties to the negotiating table and to get that humanitarian support which, as the noble Lord said, is urgently needed by those communities now.
The Lord Bishop of Leeds
My Lords, that being the case, what pressure can the UK and the United States Governments put on the United Arab Emirates, which has been supplying and continue to supply funding and weapons to the RSF?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
The best thing I can do is to repeat what I have already said: the most important thing is to get those parties around the negotiating table and get that humanitarian aid where it is needed. Anybody or any state, with any influence over any party, must use that influence for good and to bring this conflict to an end as soon as possible.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, there is no disagreement in the House about the importance of dealing with all atrocity crimes. In the previous Parliament, the noble Baroness’s party kindly supported amendments from the Front Bench to enable the High Court of England and Wales to determine whether a genocide is being committed. She touched on the problem of the International Criminal Court and the use of vetoes by countries such as China and Sudan never to allow these issues to get to the ICC.
Will the noble Baroness go back and look at the way that we determine genocides? Will she accept that, as long as 20 years ago, the ICC announced a genocide in Darfur? Some 2 million people were displaced and 300,000 people died; and 18 months ago, the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Sudan and South Sudan, in an inquiry that I chaired, warned that signs of genocide were emerging again. Under the 1948 convention, we have a duty to predict, prevent, protect and punish. The truth is that we are not doing any of them.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, I remember the events of 20 years ago very well. I remember Colin Powell saying that it was genocide and being astonished by the continuation of atrocities, given that declaration. It is why our focus should not be on whether we use a particular term—that will come and words are important—as that determination must be made by a competent court in possession of the relevant evidence. Quite how that is done and which courts are deemed competent is an interesting question, and one that I am happy to take away. I think that we should re-examine that.
I am very glad that this has come before the House, because one of the things that has concerned me is that the famine taking place in Sudan is causing the death of more people than in Mali, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and Gaza put together, and it is receiving far too little attention from the world.
Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)
My Lords, I entirely agree with the sentiments and comments of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. Whatever this is called, it is horrendous. Can my noble friend the Minister say a little more about what efforts have been made to achieve a political solution? Does she retain any hope in the Jeddah process?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
Hope is an interesting concept when it comes to Sudan. All parties seem to have breached the commitments they made as part of the Jeddah process. We remain the penholder at the Security Council. To give up hope is to give up on every effort we need to make to move things forward, so giving up on hope is not an option. It does not help anybody to be optimistic when there is little reason for optimism, but we will continue to pursue our calls for a negotiated outcome, a cessation of all violence and atrocities, and the aid to get to where it is needed.
Sometimes we will work directly and sometimes through multilateral partners. This has to end—so many people, and so many children, are dying. The sexual violence being experienced by women and children in Sudan is completely intolerable. We all have a responsibility to do what we can to highlight what is happening and do something about it.
Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)
My Lords, as with all these things, there is much high politics, but meanwhile over 90% of children are not receiving schooling, as the Minister for Development in the other place pointed out yesterday. Can the Minister tell us some practical ways in which we can help those children to get the education they so desperately need?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
That is a really important point. Last summer my right honourable friend the Minister for Development, Anneliese Dodds, visited South Sudan on one of her first visits after her appointment. She got as close to the border as she could. She met many of the women and children who had been forced to flee and who had experienced the most awful violence. She has managed to secure a doubling of our aid to Sudan—it is now around £113 million—and that is for food, healthcare and, importantly, education, to make sure that those young people are educated as close to their homes as possible, because to miss out on that education just compounds the terrible circumstances in which they have found themselves.