Ukraine Update

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords—

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

My Lords, the time has elapsed.

[Noble Lords]

There is time for one more question.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

But two noble Lords got up at the same time. We must proceed.

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 13th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 7. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division must make that clear in debate.

Clause 8: Restrictions on time limits to bring actions: England and Wales

Amendment 7

Moved by

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Committee stage & Lords Hansard
Tuesday 9th March 2021 Lords Chamber

The question as yet unresolved in my mind is how far it is appropriate for this House to go in relation to these difficult and interlocking issues: whether it would be right for us to take the heart out of Part 1, as Amendment 3, albeit elegantly, would do, or whether we should aim less ambitiously, but still significantly, to incentivise better investigations, as the other amendments in this group seek to do, and to ensure in accordance with Amendment 14—which we shall come on to discuss—that, for the protection of our own service personnel, Part 1 will not apply to crimes within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I believe that we are trying to reconnect with the noble Lord, Lord Boyce.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord should now continue and we will see how well we can hear him.

--- Later in debate ---

Clause 2 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

We come to the group beginning with Amendment 4. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division must make that clear in debate.

Clause 3: Matters to be given particular weight

Amendment 4

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I also speak as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights which produced the report on this Bill, and it is what is in that report which will influence the brief comments that I shall make. I support what my noble friend Lady Massey has said.

I accept fully that it is most unlikely that the Armed Forces would send someone abroad who was not capable of making sound judgments. The issue, as evidenced by the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, just now and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, is whether people in a war zone, in very difficult and dangerous circumstances, might develop a condition where their judgment was not as sound as when they were sent there. However, my understanding is that soundness of judgment is something that underlies all prosecutorial decisions in the criminal law of this country anyway, so I am not clear as to why we should treat soldiers differently from the way that the law normally works.

I can do no better than to quote from paragraph 79 of the JCHR report:

“The mental health of a defendant is already borne in mind as part of the prosecutorial decision as to whether it is in the public interest to bring a prosecution. We do not consider that there is any solid basis for including an additional requirement that could risk granting de facto impunity to those who have committed crimes on the grounds that the perpetrator lacked sound judgement, or could not exercise self-control, beyond the threshold already established in criminal law. For this reason, we would recommend deleting clause 3(2)(a), 3(3) and 3(4).”


The key words in this are

“beyond the threshold already established in criminal law.”

If we believe that the threshold in our criminal law is adequate, we do not need this extra provision. That is the basis on which I will support what my noble friend Lady Massey said at the beginning of this debate.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, has withdrawn, so I call the next speaker.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we stand foursquare behind our troops and we want to work with the Government to build the broadest consensus possible on the Bill—tailored to supporting our Armed Forces members and safeguarding human rights. The amendments in this group aim to probe an understanding of what particular weight a prosecutor must give when considering a prosecutorial decision related to alleged conduct during overseas operations. As we have heard, Amendment 4 would remove the requirement on a prosecutor to consider the adverse effect on the person of the conditions they were exposed to. Amendment 7 would remove the requirement on the prosecutor to consider any exceptional demands and stresses, while Amendment 8 would remove the definition of any adverse effects, including making sound judgments or considering mental health.

The amendments are based on concerns raised by the Joint Committee on Human Rights which stated:

“We do not consider that there is any solid basis for including additional requirements that could risk granting de facto impunity.”


If mental health is already considered by prosecutors, as indicated by the Joint Committee on Human Rights, why do the Government believe it necessary to include it in this Bill? As the Minister will see, these requirements have not been considered by prosecutors before. Also, as my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer asked in the previous group, why have the Government not included a requirement for prosecutors to give weight to the quality and duration of relevant investigations? The Armed Forces Judge Advocate, General Jeff Blackett, has said:

“Clause 3 is engaged after five years. It seems bizarre to me that in deciding whether to prosecute, you have a post-five-year test, but not a pre-five-year test.”


Why have the Government drafted Clause 3 in this way? What independent legal advice was given in relation to the drafting of the clause? Vexatious claims are a serious problem, but we fear that the focus on a presumption against prosecution misses the point: it is the current cycle of investigations. We can see that from how the Government have failed to give particular weight to the quality and duration of the investigations in this clause.

War Widows Pensions

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Thursday 10th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

I repeat the request for brevity.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, as president of the War Widows’ Association, I am enraged by the failure of government to find a solution. Is it the Government’s intention to procrastinate for so long that these few elderly widows will all be dead?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

No. I say to my noble friend that of course it is not. I have no wish to be evasive. That is why, at the risk of incurring the displeasure of the Deputy Speaker, I thought it important to give the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, as full an explanation as I could of the complexities. I am being very frank with the Chamber. This is not about a lack of will on the part of the MoD to find a solution; it is about recognising the challenges of getting a route towards a solution. That is the difficulty. These are not manufactured complexities; they affect the whole of government.

War Widows’ Pension

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Baroness and pay tribute to and thank the War Widows’ Association for its excellent work. I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness for her role within the association. I realise that this is an emotive issue that provokes many passions and I sympathise with and understand that. The noble Baroness will be aware that the difficulty with applying retrospective treatment to the provisions is that the policy of successive Governments—not just this one but previous ones—and across departments has been that such benefits cannot be applied retrospectively. I make it clear that in no way do the Government seek to diminish or disregard the support provided and contribution made by the ladies to whom the noble Baroness refers. My problem is that I have a very hard nut and I do not have a hammer to crack it.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, as president of the War Widows’ Association, I say to my noble friend that the Answer she has given will not wash with those ladies who naturally feel aggrieved by this decision. Will my noble friend at least agree to a meeting where this could be discussed more thoroughly with the officers of the association and honorary members, such as myself¸ who are able to be present?

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank my noble friend for her question—I am beginning to feel a formidable array of onslaught opening up before me. I also thank her for her invaluable role as president of the War Widows’ Association. The department is very anxious to continue a dialogue and to continue to hear what war widows are experiencing. The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, referred to data, which is notoriously difficult to quantify. No one has the data but the association might now be able to pinpoint more accurate information. Anything that adds to our aggregate knowledge will be welcome. I say to my noble friend Lady Fookes that the Central Advisory Committee on Compensation, chaired by the Minister for DPV—which covers service charities, including the War Widows’ Association—is meeting tomorrow. I very much hope that the association will use that forum to make plain the strength of views that I am detecting clearly in the Chamber today.

Offensive Weapons Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th February 2019 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

My Lords, we have started a little late for the obvious reason that people cannot be in two places at once. I must make the normal announcement that if there is a Division in the House, the Committee will immediately adjourn for 10 minutes.

Clause 26: Surrender of prohibited offensive weapons

Amendment 70A had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.

Veterans Strategy

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I declare two interests, first as president of the Sussex branch of SSAFA and, secondly, as president of the War Widows’ Association of Great Britain. I am particularly proud to be associated with war widows—a gallant group of women who have suffered greatly over the years and whom I frankly regard as a form of veteran. It is their position on which I want to speak in the debate this evening.

I have heard anecdotally over the years some pretty heart-rending stories from war widows of their difficulties, loneliness and all the kinds of problems that are associated when their lives are suddenly turned upside down by the death of their husband. But recently the War Widows’ Association has engaged on an excellent project to bring together war widows’ stories, with the aid of academics, who have allowed the ladies to tell their story in their own way. This has now been brought together in a marvellous book, War Widows’ Stories. It provides a wonderful fund of knowledge and information which should be of great value to historians of the future and, indeed, to those who are looking at the situation now. It brings home the fact that so often the war widows’ families are largely sidelined in the history of war—collateral damage, shall we call them?

It is very important that we should have a far greater understanding of the role that they have played and do play in all the conflicts of this century and the centuries before. I believe that one of the Army museums—there may be more than one—has actually taken upon itself the idea of showing the contribution of war widows, and I very much hope that major institutions such as the Imperial War Museum will think that this is a very worthwhile project to be developed. Perhaps I could encourage my noble friend the Minister to take a look at the work that has been done and to talk to the trustees of the museum to see whether this could be introduced in a much more forward way.

I turn to another issue of great concern. One of the issues which brought the War Widows’ Association into being was the fact that the miserable war pension was taxed by the Inland Revenue. That was what caused the ladies to come together to fight for what they saw as their rights. It took time, but they got it. However, for many years after that, if they cohabited or remarried, they lost their war pension. After some years, this was put right, from 1 April 2015, but it created another anomaly. Those who were affected before 1 April still had that cut-off. The War Widows’ Association is working on this now. Again, I hope I can enlist the aid and encouragement of my noble friend. I suspect that the Ministry of Defence is more sympathetic than the Treasury, which is the department that has to be persuaded. Getting money out of the Treasury is rather like getting blood out of a stone, but I ask my noble friend to try very hard on this subject.

We do not think there are many—possibly 300—and, of course, they diminish. The longer we leave this, the more they will die and the smaller the problem will become. However, it affects women whose husbands were killed in the first Gulf war, the Falklands War and in Northern Ireland, about which other Members have spoken today. I will quote one lady whose husband was killed in South Armagh in 1973. She said:

“Life was lonely as a young woman with a baby and over time I missed my son having a father and the friendship of a husband. After years alone, I was blessed with a second chance of happiness, but felt sad my pension would be withdrawn on remarriage. I felt this action demeaned John’s sacrifice”.


I fully agree with her, because it is also important to realise that legally the pension is, in fact, compensation for a life lost, and therefore should not be affected by the benefits system. I want to reiterate that—it is extremely important that it is regarded as, and is, compensation, not a normal benefit.

The military covenant has also been mentioned this evening. I will quote again so that I get it right:

“Those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether regular or reserve, those who have served in the past and their families”—


my emphasis—

“should face no disadvantage compared to other citizens in the provision of public and commercial services. Special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given most such as the injured and the bereaved”.

Who else are the bereaved but the war widows and their immediate family?

I hope that those wonderful words are carried out, because otherwise they are simply words on paper and worth nothing whatever. So I urge my noble friend to look at the possibility of war widows’ stories being celebrated or commemorated far more widely than they are now; to make absolutely certain that those widows are not left behind by this failure to allow them to keep their pensions on remarriage; and perhaps to rename the war widows’ pension as compensation, which is what it legally and truly is. I look to my noble friend to help in all these matters.

The Role and Capabilities of the UK Armed Forces, in the Light of Global and Domestic Threats to Stability and Security

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Grand Committee

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I was not aware that the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, was going to raise this case. He has put it most powerfully, and perhaps I may at least join with him in asking my noble friend the Minister to look seriously at all the implications. I do so with a reasonable amount of knowledge of the Royal Marines through my life as a Member of Parliament with Royal Marines stationed both in my own constituency and close to it. I have the greatest admiration for them as an elite fighting force, so I hope that justice will be done in this case. In any case, it is important, when we look at defence in general, to realise how important it is that forces such as the Royal Marines are used fully because they are so flexible. When we do not know, as we have all discussed in the debate today, what threats may come to us, that is invaluable.

I am grateful to the Minister for introducing this debate and for stating so categorically that it is the first duty of any Government to provide adequate defence and security for the realm. I fear he may need to repeat that in other places because too often it is not featured and is forgotten. It is perhaps ironic that the importance of the decision about the size of the House has attracted so much attention that we have had to be decanted into the Moses Room so that we would not start our debate at 10 pm. Need I say more on that point?

I want to look in particular at the role of the Royal Navy. When we had the review of 2010, I was frankly dismayed by the cuts that were made. I thought the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, was rather diplomatic in her description. I will be a bit blunter. It was more of a cost-cutting exercise than a look at a strategy for defence. I hope and pray that the forthcoming review will be much more active and will give us some hope for the future: that we have seen the bottom and we shall rise up again and give defence the real support that it needs.

I refer particularly to the Royal Navy because I believe it has so many duties to perform that we need to think about it very carefully. First, it protects our sea lanes and our trade. We are a big trading nation. A lot of goods come in and out and unless they can be safely delivered, we are at real and immediate risk. We have just been looking at the end of the Second World War. One of our greatest worries then was the ability to get food through to us so that we avoided starvation. We relied on the Royal Navy and the merchant ships to do that for us. Let that lesson not be forgotten for the future.

In addition we need to look at our aircraft carriers. Mention has been made of those already this afternoon. They not only need aeroplanes on their decks, they also need a posse of support ships for them to be able to be used safely and successfully.

Furthermore, we need to look at possible dangers from mines. A few years ago, as a member of the parliamentary Armed Forces scheme, I was in the Gulf and watched a fascinating exercise where they were hunting for and blowing up mock mines. We apparently were much more successful than the Americans who were taking part in the exercise, which I have to say gave me a certain malicious pleasure. What struck home was when one of the officers said to me, “You know, it would be quite easy to put a mine or two in the English Channel and the effect of that would be absolutely devastating”. I do not know how easy or not it would be, but bearing in mind that we always have to be prepared for the unexpected, as my noble friend Lord King said, I think that is something to which we should give particular attention. Our interests could be threatened in this way anywhere else in the world as well.

The other point that I want to make does not refer precisely to the Royal Navy but to our personnel in all armed services. I hope when looking at this review that good account will be taken of the need to look after our personnel and to ensure that they are not persuaded to leave the service before time simply because there are various good jobs outside and we have gone into some pettifogging restriction which really irritates them. I will not go into the details but I am sure that all those who are interested in defence will know that sometimes small things in the course of their employment can be really irritating and can cause a man or woman to leave the service just when they are at their most useful.

I hope, too, that we shall not forget the military covenant. There is a great deal of publicity about this. It is a remarkably fine thing but it must not remain an empty gesture. It must be looked to, refreshed and be in the minds of our Government.

As noble Lords may know, I am also president of the War Widows’ Association of Great Britain. It does a great job in looking to the interests of those who have been bereaved in war. Unfortunately, we have had a good many more casualties as a result of recent conflicts and that continued support will be necessary. I hope we may look to the Government to always give support to service widows as well as those who have been bereaved by conflict.

I am aware that we are discussing a particularly difficult subject and that choices have to be made, but I hope that in making them we always remember that some of our greatest assets are the skill and dedication of the men and women who serve us in the Armed Forces.

Armed Forces: Personnel

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2012 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I should like to start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, on securing this important debate. This is a subject about which she is well informed, having chaired the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body until 2004, as other noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords said. As a result of her important work, service men and women trust the AFPRB. As the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, said, that is very much down to the important work of the noble Baroness, Lady Dean. She has influenced Governments—not just this Government but the previous Government—and they have listened to her.

She is well aware of the independence of the pay review body. It retains a fundamental independent role in ensuring that the remuneration package of our service personnel is sufficient to recruit and retain the right people. We value its work, as do the Armed Forces, and the House can be assured that there are no plans to change this important principle.

The 41st report that noble Lords mentioned was published in March this year, and I am pleased to say that the recommendations have been agreed in full, with many of the changes taking effect from 1 April this year. However, we cannot ignore the financial crisis and the need to exercise restraint, and that is why it is necessary to freeze pay. None the less, pay for those earning less that £21,000 has increased, and it is important that we ensure that those who are experiencing the greatest challenges receive additional money. For those deployed for an average of six months, individuals will receive the tax-free operational allowance to the value of £5,280, and, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor announced in his Budget, council tax relief has doubled to some £600.

With Afghanistan in mind, the deployed welfare package has been increased. However, our forces are deployed not just to Afghanistan, and the noble Baroness mentioned in the title of this debate the operational tempo. It is true that some service personnel are now on a third or even a fourth tour, and it is testament to the work of the strategic defence and security review that we had the required capabilities to achieve what we did in support of the Libyan uprising. The increased separation from loved ones has been recognised and, as recommended by the pay review body, the qualifying period between increases in levels of the longer separation allowance has been reduced from 240 to 180 days. This means that progression through the 14 levels, ranging from £6.69 to £28.24 for each day separated, is attained more quickly.

We do understand that prolonged periods away from home impact on morale—an important point made by the noble Baroness. We do all we can to minimise this and use harmony guidelines to allow for operational rest. However, there will always be occasions where specialist skills are needed, often at short notice. This may mean that for some, harmony guidelines cannot be prescriptively followed, but we will make every effort to return the individual to their unit as soon as possible. The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, discussed morale at length. We recognise that this is a very difficult time for Armed Forces personnel and their families. Some tough policy decisions that may have had an effect on morale have had to be made as a necessary part of the department’s contribution to the overall government programme to reduce the United Kingdom’s deficit.

As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has repeatedly set out, our combat troops will withdraw from Afghanistan by the end of 2014. Between now and then we will be able to reduce our numbers. This process has already begun. However, there cannot be some sort of cliff edge in 2014 when all remaining troops come out at once. The rate at which troops can be reduced will depend on transition to Afghan control in the different parts of Afghanistan. Although we will maintain a presence for some time after 2014, we would expect the frequency of deployment to reduce.

Armed Forces pay is frozen, as is the case for all public sector workers, with the exception of those earning £21,000 or less, to whom we have given £250 in each of the last two years of the pay freeze. Pay has also increased incrementally each year for those who are not at the top of their pay scale—some 75 per cent of personnel—a protection introduced for the Armed Forces to ensure that they were not disadvantaged by their lack of contractual entitlement. This is in accordance with the principles of the Armed Forces covenant and has meant that most service personnel will have received an increase in pay during the freeze period.

Increase in pay for the next two years will be limited to an average of 1 per cent each year. The pay review body has already begun its programme of visits to service personnel in the United Kingdom and overseas to gauge their views on pay and related issues. We always welcome the advice of the pay review body and, as we did this year, we will give due consideration to its recommendations.

The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, mentioned pensions—in particular, the publication of the final report of the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission of the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, on 10 March last year, which resulted in a number of recommendations that were accepted as a basis for discussion on the design of new public service pension schemes to be introduced from April 2015. My department has now commenced its consultation process with service personnel and is conducting briefings throughout the service community. The consultation period ends on 20 June. However—I address the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick—personnel have now been assured that any changes to the scheme will not affect the value of pension benefits that they earn up to 1 April 2015, and that those aged 45 or over on 1 April this year will see no change to the amount of pension that they will receive or the time at which it can be drawn.

My noble friend Lord Palmer mentioned accommodation, a subject in which I know my noble friend and all other noble Lords who have spoken take a close interest and which we discussed in the House on 1 March. We continue to examine accommodation provision but, in terms of making improvements, the Chancellor has made an additional £100 million available for service accommodation from the financial year 2013-14. It will be used by the MoD for repairing and refurbishing 650 family homes and buying a further 25.

While it is necessary to increase the daily charge in respect of accommodation, these increases range from a modest 2p per day through to 76p for accommodation in the highest standard. Increases are in line with the rental component of the retail prices index and are broadly comparable with the costs faced by civilians, but with a discount that reflects the disadvantages of living in service accommodation. This means that, for a typical three-bedroom property in the highest standard for occupation, occupants of other ranks pay some £306 per month.

The very basis of the covenant is to tackle disadvantage incurred as a result of service and to consider special treatment where appropriate. The covenant and the pay review body are not related. However, we ensure that the pay review body is kept informed of our commitments and changes.

In the two minutes left, I will very briefly address questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, asked about troops coming back from Germany. The Defence Infrastructure Organisation is currently considering the likely housing requirements of those returning from overseas, including Germany.

My noble friend Lord Palmer asked about the three-year pause in the accommodation improvement programme from April 2013. As part of the MoD’s work to reduce the funding gap and balance defence priorities, from April 2013 there will be a three-year pause in the programme to upgrade lower-quality SFA homes. While this is regrettable, 96 per cent of service family accommodation properties and 42 per cent of single living accommodation bed spaces are now in the top two condition standards.

My noble friend also asked about medals. We worked constructively with the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, on the issue of the PJM, and I congratulate the noble and gallant Lord on the resolute line that he took on that issue. The coalition Government have agreed to a fresh review of medals, and I hope that further details will be announced soon.

The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned that my department was late in providing evidence to the pay review body. I was not aware of this, and I give him an undertaking that I shall look into it. I will write to him and copy in all other noble Lords who have spoken today.

The noble Lord also mentioned the timing of the Secretary of State’s report to Parliament. The covenant report will be produced each year and will consider the comments made by the PRB. I will pass on the noble Lord’s recommendation about the timing.

My noble friend Lord Lyell asked me to write on the issue of service families’ accommodation, particularly in Colchester. I will look into the issue and write to him and send copies to other noble Lords.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me to give an assurance that the financial situation of Armed Forces personnel would be looked at when the financial position improves. That is, of course, the case; it will be looked at.

I hope that I have answered most questions but, if I have not, I undertake to write to all noble Lords with answers to questions that I have not answered. This has been an interesting debate and I am grateful for noble Lords’ contributions. The Committee can be assured that we will continue to listen very carefully to the pay review body, and we greatly value its work in support of service personnel and their families.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes)]

My Lords, that completes the business before the Grand Committee today. The Committee stands adjourned.

Committee adjourned at 7.37 pm.

Armed Forces Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fookes]

My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, has shot my fox because one of the points that I wanted to make—I will still aim another bullet at it—concerns the incomprehensibility of any one piece of legislation if one seeks to know what the law is on the subject. I share the noble and gallant Lord’s distaste for simply amending the previous Act. Unusually, we have the chance to amend the Act every five years for constitutional reasons that have already been touched upon. As it is the only piece of legislation for the Ministry of Defence, I would have thought it possible for the MoD to start to work on consolidation from now on so that when we next get to the five-year point we will have a Bill that is complete in itself. I once served on the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. It met but rarely. Here we have an opportunity to put the matter right, at least in one piece of legislation.

On the new part of the legislation on the Armed Forces covenant, I slightly disagree with another noble Lord who felt that there was a weakness in giving the Secretary of State considerable flexibility in what he might choose to bring into the annual report, which will be his duty. I think that can be a strength rather than a weakness. If something is too prescriptive, it is very easy to find a little way down the line that it does not cover what you wish it to cover. I prefer to give the Secretary of State a little more leeway. I regard this new arrangement as an experiment. I hope that we will develop, refine and improve it year by year. I do not look upon it as being totally static and never to be changed, but that we can improve upon it.

I have one or two questions for the Minister. First, other than the measures for education, health and so on that are already listed in the Bill, does he have anything else in mind at the moment? If he does not, perhaps I may make one or two suggestions.

One suggestion relates to the Chief Coroner. As far as I was concerned, the whole point about the Chief Coroner was that he was given the power to ensure that coroners engaged in military inquests had sufficient training. This was, and remains, a key point for me. I point out that although this was in legislation brought by the previous Government, it was introduced because they were virtually forced into it by the then Opposition losing the day when they had said it was not necessary. However, the balance is now redressed because my own Government are seeking to get rid of it altogether.

I suggest to my noble friend that this might well be an issue that the Secretary of State could include in his annual report. Ensuring that military inquests are dealt with by coroners with sufficient experience to do them properly could be one of his duties in the annual report. That would deal with a real worry that many people have felt. In the early days, when there were a number of deaths, the coroners did not have sufficient knowledge and experience of the Armed Services and their ethos, and this caused many of the families great strain, including of course to the war widows, of whose association I am very proud to be president.

That brings me to another issue. The reference committee—or whatever it will be called—which is going to advise the Secretary of State on the various issues that will form the basis of the annual report, does not seem to be in the Bill. I may be mistaken, but if it is not in the Bill it should be a statutory body. It might well need to alter its membership, but if it is not there, what is to stop a Secretary of State who is not particularly interested in all this discontinuing it? If the Secretary of State is to be fully informed, it is absolutely vital that he has all these inputs from bodies such as the War Widows’ Association and SSAFA Forces Help, of which I am a vice-president nationally. One of their strengths is that they deal with individual cases of servicemen, ex-servicemen and their families, so they are at the sharp end and know exactly what the problems are. That kind of information is absolutely vital if we are to have an annual report that means anything at all.

Another issue, which was raised by the BMA in a briefing to me and no doubt to other noble Lords, is medical reservists. They can be called up—at very short notice, of course—but they have found that in many cases being called up actually puts their primary career at risk, particularly if the NHS organisations with which they are associated are difficult about it or maybe have different policies. I suggest to my noble friend the Minister that that kind of difficulty could be ironed out as a result of the annual report. I am of course fully aware that—other noble Lords have made this point—in many cases the Ministry of Defence, and indeed other government departments, have no direct control over the actual people who are going to be helpful or otherwise: the doctors’ surgeries, those responsible for waiting lists, and so forth. I am not sure what the answer is to that, save that if there is a body of evidence that is very clear and well set out, it might have some influence as opposed to power. That is at least what I am hoping for; we shall have to see what the result is.

All in all the Bill is a very good development and I wish it well, and I hope that by the time we finish we shall have improved it with some constructive amendments.

[Lord Stirrup]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, I wonder whether she will allow me just two seconds, for the sake of clarity, on her point about the need for flexibility in what the Secretary of State reports. I absolutely agree on the need for that flexibility; I was merely suggesting that there should be some marking of the way in which he exercises that flexibility.

[Baroness Fookes]

I thank the noble and gallant Lord for that clarification.