Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Murphy]

My Lords, this is a very large group of amendments and I take them in the spirit that they are mainly probing. One cannot help but be sympathetic to the intention to have public health expertise available to the Commissioning Board, as well as the patient’s view and all those other things. The professional point of view is vital.

I speak as someone who was the only NHS non-executive on the Monitor board for many years before I recently ended my term of office. I am also very sympathetic to the idea that there should be an external non-executive person on the board. Having said that, I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, have mentioned that what we have here is a corporate board, not a representative committee, and a relatively small board. Therefore, it is vital that we do not put on the face of the Bill the number of people who we would like to see have an impact on this board. I look forward to hearing how the noble Earl responds on how we can address these concerns.

I strongly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about having a senior independent director on the board. I have seen how extraordinarily valuable that role can be in foundation trusts and, indeed, on the Monitor board. A little holding to account of the chairman by the non-executives through that senior independent director—a powerful second person on the non-executive front—gives the board great added strength. I support that amendment, although a deputy could well play that role. I certainly support the thrust and meaning of these amendments but I would not like to see them written into the Bill as they are.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

I would like to support the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. It is really rather a mixed bag of amendments that we have before us. Clearly what is proposed in the Bill is that there should be 11 members on the NHS Commissioning Board. Perhaps the most wonderful Primate—I hope that Hansard will allow me to make the change—and the right reverend Prelate will think that the number 11 has a certain resonance about it, historically and religiously. We will leave it at that.

What I wanted to address was the size of the board and what has been said about whether it should be representative or whether it should be left to the board to decide the skills and experience that it needs to act effectively. I saw in the amendments—sadly, he is not in his place at the moment—that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, suggested having a director or a previous director of children’s services on the board. I can fully understand that because the noble Earl has done so much to try to promote the well-being of children. Clearly he feels that it is a constituency that needs to be represented on the board.

Other people might think that perhaps we need a past director of adult services on the board, especially as we have an increasingly elderly population. I can think of other professions which may ask where on the board are the pharmacists, the podiatrists, the physiotherapists, the occupational therapists and the dentists. We could have a litany of people who wanted to be on the board, so we have to be very careful.

[Lord Warner]

I think that the noble Baroness is experienced enough, like me, to remember the 1974 reorganisation of the NHS, where we ended up debating whether area gymnasts should be appointed. Therefore, I have every sympathy with her particular line of argument.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I am very grateful for that intervention. I have no experience of gymnasts and, sadly, I cannot remember that particular time. However, I have chaired very big boards. I have chaired a board of 26 and it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare because we are such a lovely nation and we always try to get consensus. Trying to do that takes time and tough and speedy decisions are not taken. In the end, the board loses the grip necessary to manage the service, the organisation or whatever it is in charge of. Therefore, I strongly support my noble friend on the issue of having 11 members on the board. When one has a very large board, a clique forms; one gets a few people who in the end run the board. They run it outside board meetings. They make the decisions before they come to the board. One gets a body of people who are responsible on the board but are actually disenfranchised—they are accountable but disenfranchised—and I think that that makes the board totally dysfunctional. Therefore, we should resist the temptation to have representatives on the board. We need a chairman with considerable leadership skills; a chief executive of proven management expertise; executives who know the business; and non-executives who bring a breadth of experience.

I have some sympathy with the arguments that have been put on the issue of the Director of Public Health but I wish to reserve my position on that, as I do on the suggestion put forward by my noble friend Lady Jolly on HealthWatch England, because it could be that the board, or whoever, might decide that there is a non-executive who has wider experience and possibly could be more effective on the board than the chairman of HealthWatch England. This needs discretion and we should leave it in the hands of the board and the Bill and not try to make it representative.

In an earlier debate the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, who is not in his place today, referred to the “fatal tendency” of the NHS to be bureaucratic and exercise producer catch-up. He said that:

“the tendency of any organisation that is in a monopolistic position [is] to be run for the convenience and in the interests of those who are providing the service, whether doctors, nurses, managers or whatever”.—[Official Report, 9/11/11; col. 251.].

We have to be very careful that we do not fall into that situation and we must try to address that “fatal tendency”, as he described it.

I wish to make one comment on the seductive amendment on limiting the numbers to be employed to 500. That again is a mistake. If we set a number, it is very likely that that number will be reached where possibly only 100 are required. It needs a great deal of scrutiny by the Secretary of State and others, through the mandate, to see what the board is doing and whether it is effective and keeping to its budget, which I am sure will be closely watched. I would like to keep the number on the board to 11.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. She and I have sat opposite each other at meetings for more years than I care to remember.

However, her belief that the chair of the NHS Commissioning Board will only be able to manage a board of 11 is slightly misplaced. We already know that the person who holds this office will be able to walk on water, with due deference to the most reverend Primate. We know that this individual will have the most extraordinary qualities. Indeed, the Health Select Committee has demonstrated that by the overwhelming vote that it gave him on his appointment. Therefore, any person of such calibre who is able to manage a quango with such an enormous budget must surely be able to manage a board of more than 11 people. That goes without saying.

It is probably unhelpful for the Bill to specify precisely the number of people who will be appointed because circumstances will change. At different times it may be appropriate to have particular people or specialisms involved, but that will change over time. To lay down the numbers too specifically is probably a mistake. Indeed, I am not sure that 11 is a sensible number for the effectiveness of boards. It is too large for the most efficient and effective of boards but it is not quite large enough to bring together all the strands of opinion and expertise that you might wish to bring.

My main reason for intervening was not to pick up on that point but to question a couple of the amendments, in particular Amendment 52C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly. The amendment refers to the board,

“including one member who is also the Chair of Healthwatch England”.

That is a misguided amendment. It is very important that the viewpoint of the patient is heard clearly by the NHS Commissioning Board, but it would be wrong to bind HealthWatch England into the collective decisions that will be taken by the NHS Commissioning Board. Had the amendment said something along the lines of, “The chair of HealthWatch England will be able to attend all meetings of the NHS Commissioning Board and to contribute to them fully” rather than talking about membership, it would have been much better.

There is already a concern that HealthWatch England will not be seen as a properly independent organisation, partly because in the Bill it is framed as a committee of the CQC and also because the local healthwatch organisations will be wholly owned subsidiaries of local councils around the country and the money for them will not even be ring-fenced. Under those circumstances, there is a real problem about the reality of the independence of HealthWatch England. Further, to put the chair of that body in the position of perhaps having collective responsibilities for NHS Commissioning Board decisions is potentially a serious mistake. I would like to see a position where the board has the chair of HealthWatch England as an adviser. His advice may or may not be accepted, but it will be on the record what advice has been given.

I hesitate to oppose an amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath but the same applies to the Chief Medical Officer. He should be there to advise the board—and that advice should be recorded—rather than being a member of the board and therefore being part of that collective responsibility. In framing the structure of the NHS Commissioning Board, there needs to be clarity of thought. There are a number of areas of expertise and interests that ought to be reflected in board membership—those individuals should bring their expertise to the table—but they cannot be there as representatives of those particular interests because they will have to take collective responsibility for the decisions of the board. However, it is also important that you have explicitly there a number of people to give advice. That should certainly include the chair of HealthWatch England and the Chief Medical Officer.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

I know that the excuse will be given that this autonomy is required to prevent any micromanagement of the health service by the Secretary of State, but there are no examples of micromanagement by the Secretary of State—I have no doubt that I will hear of them if there are any. Another excuse will be made that this autonomy is required to allow the NHS Commissioning Board and commissioners to reconfigure services. I have spoken before and I am pro reconfiguring services—I think that they do require reconfiguration—but that does not require this degree of autonomy and powers to be given away by the Secretary of State. Like my noble friend Lord Warner, I hope that the Minister will at least indicate that this clause needs amending or abandoning.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I very strongly support the spirit of Clause 4, and I oppose the amendment that the clause should no longer stand part of the Bill. I accept that it could be amended and could be clearer, but I want to hold to its spirit.

In the past I have put down six amendments to two major health Bills in an attempt to achieve something similar to what is in Clause 4. I have to say that my attempts, although I was supported by the King’s Fund, were puny compared with the weight of this mighty Bill. I hoped that my time had almost come. I say almost, because I know that the Minister, in his letter dated 7 November to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, which the noble Lord, Lord Warner, mentioned, is suggesting a strategy. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, does not like this strategy. In contrast, I do. One of the real hallmarks of this House is that we try to negotiate and accommodate what we, as a whole in this House, feel is appropriate.

In revising and amending the Bill, I appreciate that an enormous amount of time and care—

[Lord Warner]

I am not opposed to having a strategy, if I may say so to the noble Baroness, and I thank her for giving way. However, when a Bill reaches this House with a major clause in it, it has been through the other place and has been subject to a lot of scrutiny by Professor Field and his group, the Future Forum, it is reasonable to assume that the drafting does not have the kind of loopholes that this clause has. I am not the only one raising this; other people are raising the same issue. There is a lot of concern outside. We are not opposed to having a strategy, but it is reasonable to expect the Government to have got the Bill into a better shape than it was in before it came here.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I thought that that was the whole purpose of Committee stage. This stage is intended to question some of these concerns and to see whether a resolution can be achieved.

[Lord Warner]

The noble Earl is taking this clause out of the Committee stage, so far as I understand his proposal. If the strategy is to take clauses out when the going gets rough, that does not seem to be in keeping with the spirit and behaviour of this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, if the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, will allow a moment’s interruption to her speech, I promise to give way. It is very important to state that a number of us who have tabled amendments to this clause, including those of us who have expressed a desire for it to be omitted, did indeed inquire whether it might not be wise to try to discover more about the precise meaning of the clause. There are some arguments among lawyers about its effect and about whether it should be taken together with Clauses 1 and 10, to which it is clearly very intimately related—a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, in her role as chairman of the Constitution Committee. Therefore, we must stand accused of having asked the noble Earl, Lord Howe, whether he would be willing to consider taking this group together, not forgetting the long debate that we had on Clause 1, in order to find out whether there is common ground about their precise meaning, their weight and their relationship with one another. The matter will then of course come back to the Committee for wider consideration.

I hope that the Committee will recognise that, with such a difficult balance of legal opinion, it may be sensible to discuss the issue further before bringing it back to the Chamber for the continuation of the Committee stage. In fact, what I thought the noble Lord, Lord Warner, was most eloquently asking for was that the clause be taken away for reconsideration. He went on to say that that might be a good way to deal with the matter. We are in total accord with the view of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and I therefore ask him to allow us to continue with that reconsideration.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who has put the matter eloquently and correctly. I am very much in favour of my noble friend’s wish to try to get some negotiation. As the noble Baroness said, many of us feel that that is the way forward.

This is a difficult issue. It is trying to get the balance right between, on the one hand, the accountability and responsibilities of the Secretary of State, and, on the other, the freedom of those managing the service to do so without interference. Many of us are trying to achieve that balance.

I should like to refer to the letter that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, mentioned because I want to get it into Hansard. My noble friend urges us to consider three key factors in his letter and I quote the second one. He said that,

“we fulfil the policy intention that the Secretary of State should not be involved in the day to day operations of the NHS. Ministers should set the overall strategy, hold national arms-length bodies rigorously to account for their performance, and have the requisite power to intervene if the system is not operating effectively”.

Those are my views entirely.

I am now going to say something that I know is extremely unpopular in the Palace of Westminster: politicians are really neither loved nor trusted by the public to a great extent and I have to say also that they are seldom admired by those working in the NHS. There have been too many decisions that have been taken without any evidence to support them, resulting in very long delays in things such as reconfigurations. Those delays have jeopardised patient care. Reversals have been made at the last minute, ignoring well founded clinical advice from clinicians saying to us that the service is unsafe, yet the position of an inadequate, unsafe hospital or service continues because of political interference. That undermines the confidence of managers to manage.

I want to mention Kevin Barron, who is the Labour MP for Rother Valley—

[Baroness Thornton]

I do apologise to the noble Baroness, but I absolutely cannot resist asking her whether she thinks that the public love quangos more or less than politicians, since the intention is to put our National Health Service in the hands of an extremely large quango. So is it Andrew Lansley or David Nicholson?

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I have not seen any evidence from MORI or any other polling organisation that has put that question to the public, so it is left in the air. I have seen the MORI poll that very recently showed that 88 per cent of people who were questioned said that doctors were the most trusted profession to tell the truth, whereas only 14 per cent thought that the truth was told by politicians. I think that is really sad—sad for democracy and sad when it comes to trying to build the confidence of people who are in charge of the National Health Service.

One real problem, which exists even if the same party is in power for a length of time, is a lack of a consistency of leadership. The Secretaries of State are here one minute and gone the next. Really successful organisations—I am thinking of schools, hospitals, companies—benefit from continuity in leadership. I read the other day that Sir Alex Ferguson has been in charge of Manchester United for 25 years. If we had had that inspiring leadership for a real length of time, I wonder what difference it might have made to the NHS. Since 1997 we have had seven Secretaries of State. Frank Dobson was in charge for 17 months. Alan Milburn, the longest serving Secretary of State, served for four and a half years and some might think that he was the most successful. At least he had time to draw up the NHS Plan, which made an impact on the service and he had time partially to implement it. John Reid—now the noble Lord, Lord Reid—Patricia Hewitt and Alan Johnson all served two years, and Andy Burnham less than a year.

Those of us who have served in government know, as Ministers, that you take up your post with enormous enthusiasm and unrealistic aspirations. You want to do things. Above all, you want to improve the NHS. You believe that you are in charge and that you can set policy. But, no, the first thing that happens is that you inherit the policies of your predecessor, which are not your policies that you know and love. They are not yours, but you do your very best to implement them. Then you have a chance to set your own policy but, before you have had time to implement it, you are off again. In the mean time, you are expected to make some very courageous, unpopular decisions about institutions that you may know very little about and about people whom you have rarely met. So how do you exercise judgment and build relationships when you are there for such a very short time, possibly just two years? That contributes to an NHS that gets confused and fed up and is mistrustful of its masters.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Cumberlege]

Does my noble friend agree, however, that when I was putting forward the case, I said that we would not negate democracy but that this was a method whereby we could give the Secretary of State more discretion when he wished to interfere—or, rather, not to interfere but to let local people run the service? As a manager, I know that if you are going to achieve things you have to win the hearts as well as the minds of the people who are running the service. I sense that my noble friend is trying to ensure that I will be isolated in these arguments. When I proposed this, I said to your Lordships that I knew that the line I was taking would be unpopular in the Palace of Westminster. Of course it is, because the House is full of politicians. However, I would like to explain to my noble friend that it is not just my view.

Kevin Barron, the Labour MP for Rother Valley, who is a previous chairman of the Health Select Committee, told his colleagues—this was at the Labour Party conference, which understandably I was not at but I read the report—that he recalled looking at statistics for the east of England, some years ago, which were worse than for the rest of the country. The region had retained more local units, which corresponded with marginal constituencies and he said that it was his belief that health experts’ advice, rather than party politics, should determine how and where facilities were provided.

In addition, Paul Corrigan, adviser to No. 10 when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, said that “the public want accountability”—we agree with that—“but are not very keen on the fact that the responsibility lies with elected politicians, who they do not altogether trust”. I serve on a lot of committees, have been on a lot of platforms and have talked to a lot of people over the years in the National Health Service. The question that is often put to me is, “Can you not depoliticise the NHS?”, because it is seen as a very real problem. I accept that we cannot, with this democratic process that we are in, but, as I was saying, there is a balance to be struck. At the moment, unless we have something similar to Clause 4, I cannot see that balance being achieved.

[Lord Mawhinney]

I am grateful to my noble friend. The answer to her question is no. No, I was not trying to isolate or misrepresent her and no, you cannot run a publicly accountable health service without politicians—and without politicians being in charge. In her first speech, my noble friend prayed in aid the tendency of politicians to micromanage. There is one noble Lord in this House—who I will not name, for reasons that will become obvious very soon—who came to me when I was party chairman. He wanted to micromanage politically the hospital in his constituency. He was shown the door pretty quickly by me, precisely because that is not the sort of micromanagement that even politicians want to buy into, much less the medical profession, the nursing profession and all those who work in the health service. That is not micromanagement; that is pure political interference for self-interest.

I am not at all clear what micromanagement really is. Occasionally, as my noble friend pointed out, decisions are so difficult and tricky that they take quite a lot of time. I invite her to cast her mind back to those heady days when we shared Richmond House.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

That sounds very suggestive, my Lords.

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Davies, was right to refer to besetting sins behind me.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Chester]

My Lords, I completely support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, but wonder whether what she wants could be achieved—it might be a small step in the right direction in relation to legislation generally—by simply removing from the Bill the words “provided to individuals”. The term “individuals” has a jarring effect. “Provided to people” might sound a bit better, but “individuals” has a slightly impersonal feel, especially as we are concerned as a Committee and as a House about the “national” character of the National Health Service. References to individuals jar in that regard as well. Simply requiring improvement in the provision of services might achieve what the noble Baroness seeks in her amendment.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I should like to ask a few questions about Amendment 10A. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for her introduction, but we do not yet have a precise definition of what she means by area-based populations. All sorts of different services have different catchment areas. At the beginning, the noble Baroness cited family planning services. She said that she felt that perhaps it was a bad example, and I think it probably is because there are so many different services that require different boundaries. I am for coterminosity as far as we can get it, because when I was a regional chairman, I saw that where you had coterminosity between the health service and local government, you could achieve a great deal. That worked well, but when one examined it carefully, it was not so much about the boundaries; it was about the relationships built between different people. That was what made the services work extremely well.

With regard to GP practices, GPs usually want people within their area, especially if they will have to do home visits. I have been in the situation—I am sure that many noble Lords have—where I had an emergency in London but my GP is 52 miles away. That can be coped with; you can still manage that, although it is quite awkward in some respects. My anxiety about allocating patients to different GPs—being neat and tidy and trying to get all the boundaries sorted—is that I do not know what it does for choice. Perhaps the noble Baroness will say something about that. What happens when people want to choose a different GP who is out of their area, which is what we want to do locally but are unable to because the boundaries have been so clearly fixed, I have to say, by the GPs themselves?

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has somewhat stolen my thunder because I had meant to say almost exactly what she said, but I was going to mention it when we got to the part of the Bill describing the clinical commissioning groups. Schedule 2, which relates to clinical commissioning groups, states:

“A clinical commissioning group must have a constitution … The constitution must specify”,

the name, the members and the area of the group. That is there. I would like the noble Earl to describe how that area is to be measured and whether it is to be coterminous with existing boundaries, particularly local authority boundaries, for the very reason given by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

My Lords, my name is added to some of these amendments and I will add little to the eloquent speeches of my noble friend and of the noble Baroness and the noble Lord from the Cross Benches. I want to endorse only the important points of principle that they have set out. As someone who has spent a large part of a long working life at the margins or the crossover points between health and social care, I am only too well aware of what goes wrong if you do not have proper integration. It is very important, as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, reminded us, to come at this from the experience of the patient, the user and the carer. Their needs rarely come neatly packaged as health and social care; there is always crossover between them. That is especially true in the case of long-term illness but it is also a concern to those who have had an acute episode, especially in these days when people are discharged early from hospital but still need medical, nursing and social care at home.

Almost 40 years ago, I wrote a book called When I Went Home, a study of patients discharged from a local community hospital. One patient I interviewed said to me, “What I don’t understand is why they don’t talk to each other. Why did they discharge me without arranging it with my family—without even telling my family I was coming home—and why weren’t the services I needed at home all geared up for when I got there?”. I have lost count of the number of times that I have heard this story repeated over the years. Patients, users and carers do not understand different funding mechanisms, professional boundaries or sensitivities about exchanging information—and why should they? We have been saying for at least 40 years that we must improve integration. Let us for goodness’ sake use this reform as a means of achieving more commitment to integration, to which everyone pays such a lot of lip service but which in reality is still sadly lacking.

I must emphasise that we are at a point where not only do we risk not making integration better but where it could become worse if we do not really emphasise the importance of integration in this legislation. I am thinking of things such as the pressure on local authority budgets and on the voluntary sector, which is so often such an important part of an integrated care package. I am thinking of the mismatch in timing between the reforms in social care and those in the health service. I always think, too, that we should remember that it is people, not structures, who promote integration. Those currently employed in health and social care are working in a confused situation. They are often uncertain about their futures and their working relationships. They are therefore really not in a good place for cutting across professional boundaries and perhaps giving up some of their power to develop the flexible ways of working which are so necessary for integrated services. We owe it to them, as well as to the patients, users and carers, to be as explicit as possible about the importance of integration. I hope we will do that in this Bill.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I would like to make a contribution. I was very interested that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said in his introduction that he felt that integration was sometimes used as a defence against competition. He cited Kaiser Permanente, as did the noble Lord, Lord Patel. Closer to home, I was really interested to see that Assura Cambridge—Assura is an independent company—was involved in an integrated care organisation. It was a pilot that was designed to improve the quality of end-of-life care locally and to ensure that 50 per cent of patients who knew they were dying would do so in a place of their choice. After five years, the aim is to increase this figure to 75 per cent.

Assura Cambridge, which is a partnership between Assura Medical and 16 GP practices in Cambridge, worked with a range of care providers to plan, co-ordinate and improve the delivery of care to patients in the last year of their lives. The project team was led by Assura Cambridge and included representatives—this is important because it shows real integration—from Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, Cambridge Community Services, NHS Cambridge, which is the primary care trust, the Cambridge Association to Commission Health and the DoH integrated care organisation pilot team. This collaboration and partnership had a very simple system, which was to use “just in case” bags. The system was adopted to ensure that GPs had the appropriate medicines to hand for terminally ill patients in advance of their need. By taking this very simple step, the integrated care organisation was able to ensure that 87.5 per cent of deaths occurred in the patient’s usual residence or place of choice, compared to only 50 per cent of deaths without using the system.

In this case it was Assura Medical that acted as the glue to ensure that collaboration brought about an integrated solution, which has since exceeded the project’s aspiration. That is very interesting: it needed someone from outside the NHS to bring all these people together. When I talked to some of them, they said, “We haven’t got the time to do that. We just couldn’t fit all that together”. It was an outside organisation that was able to do that.

Recently I went to the Royal College of GPs’ annual conference in Manchester—no, I am sorry, Liverpool; I know there is a great difference between the two, but I have been travelling a lot recently. There was great debate about the ethical issue of GPs commissioning. The person promoting this was Professor Martin Marshall. He asked the audience of GPs—the place was packed—what the most frequent diagnosis that came through their surgery door was. As you might expect, the GPs mentioned coronary heart disease, diabetes and so on. Professor Marshall said, “No, it’s LIS”, and everyone looked very puzzled. He said, “Lost in the system”. I thought that was interesting. “Lost in the system” is the problem when we do not have integration.

It seems to me that integration happens on three levels, so maybe we have to define it more closely. The first is within community services. A GP said to me the other day, “District nursing—they’re the enemy”. When you start at that base, we have an awful lot of work to do just to get integration within the community. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said, you have to get the whole team to work, and to work beyond the team as well.

I have done a bit of work with maternity services. This is the next tier up—integration between community and hospitals. One of the things that we have tried very hard to do is to get midwives to have caseloads, so that they are there when the woman is pregnant, looking after her. They will perform the delivery, which will not necessarily be at home—it can be in hospital—and then do the postnatal care. It is brilliant. It is what women want and it provides continuity and integration. Try getting that to work—it is very difficult, because of the territories; hospitals often do not want the community midwives to come in, on to their territory, and perform the delivery. Integration happens in some places but it is very hard to roll out. That is the second tier—the hospital and community tier.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak but I feel quite anxious that we are contemplating the prospect of not producing an amendment of the kind the Minister suggested he would be willing to accept. I understand the points made by other Peers. I am really conscious of the anxiety that has been expressed in the huge amount of representations, letters, e-mails and so on that we have had.

A point about which I felt strongly at Second Reading is that our own Constitution Committee has indicated anxieties that I think are shared by a large number of people. We need to indicate we are going to take seriously the views of that committee.

Many of the anxieties expressed may either have been caused by scaremongering or become totemic, but they none the less exist. Some of them seem not to be so ill founded. Other speakers have already referred to the fact that, as the Explanatory Notes state, the commissioning and provision of services will no longer be delegated by the Secretary of State, but will be directly conferred on the organisations responsible. As the Select Committee indicates, the Secretary of State must secure that,

“any other person exercising functions in relation to the health service or providing services for its purposes is free to exercise those functions or provide those services in the manner that it considers most appropriate”.

There seem to be at least grounds there for anxiety that the Secretary of State may be seeking to offload responsibility.

I hope that, however long it takes us during these discussions—after some of the discussion on the previous amendment, I became even more anxious about the role of the Secretary of State—we will be able to find a form of words that satisfies the anxieties expressed. I do not know whether that wording should take the form of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, or that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, but we should endeavour to allay that anxiety, because it is undermining an awful lot of interest in and support for other parts of the Bill.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, this is the first time that I have entered this Committee debate, so I declare an interest as the executive director of Cumberlege Connections, which is a training company.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, for mentioning micromanagement, because a lot of our debate stretches beyond just the accountability of the Secretary of State to the organisations that are going to be set up that will have devolved powers. I can understand some of the concern felt about financial probity and the money that is going to the National Health Service, £80 billion of which will go to the NHS Commissioning Board. I shall try to provide a little comfort to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, who seemed to imply that this money was going to be shelled out by the Secretary of State and he was then going to disappear, leaving no accountability. However, paragraph 14(1) of Schedule 1 states:

“The Secretary of State may require the Board to provide the Secretary of State with such information as the Secretary of State considers it necessary to have for the purposes of the functions of the Secretary of State in relation to the health service”.

Paragraph 14(2) states:

“The information must be provided in such form, and at such time or within such period, as the Secretary of State may require”.

There is clearly an opportunity here for intervention and for the Secretary of State to make sure that probity is being exercised.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

But surely that simply states that there shall be a requirement to provide information. It does not then give the Secretary of State a power to intervene. All it means is that one has an informed Secretary of State, which is tremendously helpful, but not a Secretary of State who is able to say, “Well, this is clearly not in the public interest in terms of the way that these moneys have been disbursed”.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

That is true up to a point, but can you imagine, when the Secretary of State receives that information, that he will do nothing about it? That would be extremely unlikely.

The other thing I would like to say is about the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, on ambiguity and clarity. It seems quite strange to put a word into this Bill that is archaic and no longer used. It no longer serves a purpose, in that what is being done at the moment does not relate to the Secretary of State providing anything. If we are going to be really clear about legislation, surely we want to make sure that the words used are relevant to today. Including the word provide, which is no longer being used—the Secretary of State has powers to provide, but he does not actually provide services—seems a pretty irrelevant and an archaic way of producing legislation. I very strongly support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, as agreed earlier, it now being nine o’clock, I beg to move that the House be now resumed.

Health: Osteoporosis

Baroness Cumberlege Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Baroness Cumberlege]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to reduce the number of fractures which result from osteoporosis.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, the steps we are taking in this area include guidance via a commissioning toolkit to support organisations on effective falls and fracture prevention and management, NICE’s published guidance on osteoporosis, falls and fractures—NICE is also working on clinical guidelines for hip fractures for publication in spring 2011—and a best-practice tariff which offers financial incentives to hospitals meeting quality standards for hip fracture patients, including a fracture prevention assessment.

[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his comprehensive reply and welcome the progress that has been made. We must bear in mind that last year alone, some 65,000 people were admitted to hospitals for hip fractures, which represents an increase of 17 per cent on the previous decade and is one of the highest figures in Europe. Will my noble friend ensure that the outcomes framework currently under review, which concentrates mostly on hip fractures, also includes indicators to reduce all fragility fractures? That would ensure that the NHS puts a comprehensive fracture preventive service in place.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, my noble friend is right to say that the outcomes framework will be central to assessing the performance of the NHS and driving up quality generally. The framework is still in development, and my department is currently looking at the responses to the recent consultation and carrying out the necessary analysis to ensure that it is as balanced and robust as possible. Having said that, the consultation document contained a number of proposed indicators that relate to falls and fragility fractures which are candidates for inclusion in the framework, although the department cannot take any final decisions until we have digested all the consultation responses.