Finance (No. 3) Bill

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) on initiating and devising this new clause. The UK is a long way behind other countries in its regulation of this sector. Action is being taken in the United States and elsewhere in Europe, and therefore increasing numbers of companies are seeing the UK as the ideal place to operate because they know we are behind in respect of regulation. Indeed, as they do not anticipate regulation any time soon, they also do not anticipate leaving the UK in the near future, and they consider now to be a good time to invest in the UK market. Therefore, BrightHouse says it will triple its number of high street shops here in the UK. That is not only a worry for consumers, who are, by and large, exploited by these companies; it is also a threat to our high streets, because I for one do not want my high street to have signs saying “Cash for gold” and shops such as BrightHouse; I do not want what I would call unscrupulous companies populating our high streets.

The high-cost lender lobby is lobbying within an inch of its life. It is inundating those of us who are speaking out on these issues with documents, offers to meet, conversations and phone calls about why it is right and we are wrong. However, Members who represent places such as Darlington see the effects week in, week out in our surgeries, so we know the impact that these companies are having. They are not doing what they do for the benefit of the consumer, as they would lead us to believe; they are doing it because it is a pretty good business for them. I do not have an issue with their having a good business and making money, but I do have an issue with people who are least able to make such financial decisions being exploited in this way, and that is what is happening.

I am not a big fan of Jeremy Kyle, but in the interests of research I have sat through a bit of morning television, and I was disgusted at what I saw on our screens. Such companies are deliberately targeting people who are at home during the day and who they know are on low incomes. They are making their products look affordable, easy and cheap, which they are certainly not, and, most disturbingly, they are making them look the norm. They are making these products appear to be an everyday solution of which people from all walks of life throughout the country are taking advantage. That is the single most concerning aspect of this market.

[Lorely Burt]

I must confess, somewhat ashamedly, that I have also seen Jeremy Kyle’s show and the advertisements that accompany it. I want to pick up on the fact that Labour Members do not feel it appropriate to meet short-term loan companies. I do not tweet, but it is my understanding that the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) says that Wonga has refused to meet her. That is not the case, however. [Interruption.] This is my understanding; I am just going on a letter from Wonga, and I do not want to get involved in the dispute. My point is that we must fully understand the situation. The hon. Lady knows it intimately; I do not deny that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. This is supposed to be an intervention, not a speech. I call Jenny Chapman.

[Mrs Chapman]

I am unclear as to the point that was being made, but I recommend that the hon. Lady follows my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow on Twitter, as she might therefore become more familiar with my hon. Friend’s efforts to secure meetings with senior officials at Wonga and might also understand the frustration felt by Labour Members. It is frustration not only with the high-cost lenders, but with the Government too. Five months ago, the Backbench Business Committee initiated a positive debate on this issue, but there has been no movement since then—no announcements and no indication that something is in the pipeline. That fosters a great deal of frustration and a lack of trust among Opposition Members.

[Neil Carmichael]

The hon. Lady is expressing her case very well, and I sympathise with everything she is saying. However, is she not impressed by the work of, for example, the Office of Fair Trading in issuing its guidelines, and does she not recognise that it has the power to withdraw licences if the guidelines are not respected? I could also draw her attention to a number of other possible actions that have been put in place to enable movement in the direction in which she rightly wishes to proceed.

[Mrs Chapman]

All those steps are very welcome, but they do not go very far at all in addressing the fundamental issue. The Competition Commission says that what the OFT wants to do is nothing like enough. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s intention: it is to give the Government a background against which they can decide not to support this new clause, but we are trying to force this issue to the fore and get something done about it. We are all for cross-party consensus—that is wonderful when it can be achieved—but what we actually want is something to be done. I hope the hon. Gentleman will therefore forgive Opposition Members if we are sometimes slightly intemperate in the way we express our views on this issue.

As I said when talking about my ten-minute rule Bill, for me the key issue is the advertising of these products, which is irresponsible. It might be argued that people are being given a choice, but people are not making that choice on value-for-money grounds. They are not shopping around. They are not thinking, “What’s the best product for me?” They are instead thinking, “What will get me an answer to my problem as quickly as possible, and who will say yes to me? I don’t want to go to the bank and be told ‘No’ or ‘You can’t have this but you can have something else and do you want to make an appointment to come back next week?’” These people have very immediate financial difficulties, and these products are deliberately targeted at them.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

First, may I apologise for missing some of the earlier speeches?

I have a great deal of sympathy with much of what the hon. Lady has said, but the fact that these companies have high costs and in particular high marketing costs, and the fact that there is no evidence that consumers are making rational choices based on which is more or less expensive, suggests that taxation is not the answer to the problem. There may well be an answer to the problem, but hiking up taxes is almost certainly not it.

[Mrs Chapman]

The new clause does not only address taxation. The hon. Gentleman should read it thoroughly, as it talks about other measures too. I do not think there is any one measure alone that will address this problem; there will have to be a package of measures.

There is no real competition in this market, as there are only a few companies in it. On Friday my attention was drawn to a company operating in the north-east called Provident. I was very disturbed to hear that last Christmas Provident representatives were going door to door deliberately targeting single mothers—as members of political parties, we all know that can be done. Its representatives were knocking on doors just before Christmas, saying, “We can offer you £500 and you don’t have to pay it back until after Christmas.” They were saying it could be paid back in a number of easy payments, thus making it seem attractive and ordinary. That is completely exploitative, and it will happen again this year unless the Government do something about it; indeed, it will happen Christmas after Christmas after Christmas. This House should neither accept nor tolerate that.

All Opposition Members are big supporters of credit unions.

[Lorely Burt]

So are we.

[Mrs Chapman]

Yes, Members on both sides of the House are, of course. The people behind the credit union movement are hard-working and honourable. I work somewhere where everybody is honourable, but these people really are hard-working and dedicated—many of them are volunteers—and they work in our communities to promote low-cost credit to people who are left out of mainstream credit. However, even with the best will in the world credit unions are not going to be able to compete with Wonga and Uncle Buck and so forth, because they lack the high street and web presence.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

rose—

[Mrs Chapman]

I understand that the experience is different in Northern Ireland, and I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, whom I suspect will explain that further.

[Mark Durkan]

The low membership of credit unions in Great Britain has been mentioned. Credit unions in Northern Ireland have a high membership; well over a quarter of the population—in some constituencies the figure is more than 50%—are members of the very well-developed and well-funded credit unions. The credit union movement in Northern Ireland has made it very clear that it expects Parliament to take action against the predatory credit sector. The movement does not expect Parliament just to wave to credit unions; it says, “Tackle the sharks, don’t wave to the dolphins.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Chapman]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, as he put it extremely well. I was aware that credit unions in Northern Ireland were incredibly advanced. I have found that although the fledgling credit unions in my constituency are doing a marvellous job, they are unable to do the very thing that he says is unable to be done in Northern Ireland. That strengthens the argument for accepting this new clause.

[Stella Creasy]

I wonder whether my hon. Friend would like to comment on the irony that credit unions have a cap on what they can charge, yet these legal loan sharks do not.

[Mrs Chapman]

That is an excellent point, with which I shall finish my remarks. I am aware that many colleagues would like to contribute and, having heard my hon. Friend’s comprehensive speech, I will allow others to do so.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

I welcome the opportunity to debate this new clause. I have worked with the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) on a number of occasions to highlight the need to protect the most vulnerable people in society, and we have been supported by hon. Members from both sides of the House. Let us be clear that a consensus is essential, as has been said by the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley). This is an extremely complex and challenging issue, and although we all agree that action must be taken, we need to be careful not to make the situation worse. I will set out a number of reasons why that could happen.

The new clause would require the Government to review how taxation could be used to penalise high-cost credit that is detrimental to consumers and competition. However, the current consumer credit review is examining all the options through which we can hope to secure a measured and effective response. I first wish to highlight the need to use credit reference companies, because it is unacceptable that so many of these loan companies do not even simply check whether the person borrowing the money can actually service the debt. We would all agree that we are not against people borrowing money if that is what they wish to do, but they should have the opportunity to be able to service that debt. Secondly, we need to limit the number of customer extensions and roll-overs, as a number of hon. Members have said. It is unacceptable that people can be trapped into a cycle of increasingly expensive debt. Thirdly, there needs to be a cut-off point, when fees and the interest stop being accumulated. Too often we have seen people borrow a relatively small sum that has built up over many years. Many horror stories have been related in previous debates.

--- Later in debate ---

It is therefore time that we looked at some form of regulation in this area. Indeed, the international experience that the hon. Member for Walthamstow spoke of sounded very interesting. We looked at some examples in a previous debate, and I note the example of Alabama in particular. It has come to something when we are looking to Alabama for examples of regulation, given that the southern US states are not exactly known for their love of regulation. I look forward to the Minister’s response to this debate. I said that I would approach it with an open mind, and I take on board the excellent speech that my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford made about taxation measures. Personally, I cannot see how taxation measures would have a great impact, although I note that sub-paragraph (d) in new clause 11 talks about looking at basically everything, so it will be interesting to see how the Minister responds to that.

[Mrs Chapman]

I have found myself wondering who the hon. Gentleman disagrees with in this debate.

[Andrew Percy]

I am feeling the love in the Chamber today, which is a good thing—there must have been something in the water in Goole this morning. However, the serious point is that that hopefully proves that although there are concerns, and although lots of Members who will vote differently from each other this evening have made incredibly passionate speeches, they clearly all want to see the same thing. We might disagree on how to get to there, but the fact that I am agreeing with so many people is perhaps a sign that there is consensus on this issue, which is a good thing.