Baroness Cass debates involving the Ministry of Justice during the 2024 Parliament

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
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They will not be involved in the judgment as to whether the person is eligible for lethal drugs; they are providing their clinical expertise and knowledge. It is the panel who, separately, independently and through a process that can be completely scrutinised and documented, would make that assessment. That would mean that the patient’s care could not be contaminated by pressures causing the doctor to be burnt out, financial pressures on the system in which that patient is being treated, or even administrative pressures, such as the patient’s discharge becoming difficult and the hospital needing beds because patients are being treated in corridors—which we know is happening all the time. It provides separation and a degree of clarity over the assessment and judgment.

Baroness Cass Portrait Baroness Cass (CB)
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To clarify, whether we take the system proposed by my noble friend or the original system with the series of doctors, it is very unlikely under any circumstance that the clinician who is providing primary care for the patient will also be in one of those formal roles specified by the Bill. The reason is that, as we have discussed, people will need to opt in to that kind of role and have very specific training for it. Given the number of people who are predicted to be required to grant an assisted death, that will be quite a small cadre of clinicians. Therefore, although I understand the aspiration of the sponsor in the other place, and certain Members here, for there to be close integration between the team providing normal care and those involved in the dying process, in practice I do not see how that would be feasible in either system.

Baroness Murphy Portrait Baroness Murphy (CB)
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My Lords, I oppose the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that we should have a completely separate service. That would target and isolate people who are dying. They will wish to be supported by the people who they have known through the course of their illness, so it is crucial that they be seen and examined by those people and not moved to another place. Yes, there will perhaps be separate people who take on this role, and they should be properly qualified and discuss it with the panel, but it is utterly crucial that, when patients are in the process of dying, we do not separate and reject their carers, who should be part of the palliative care provided to them.

In other countries, assisted dying usually happens as part of a palliative care service. That is how it is done, very successfully, in Oregon and Washington. We should not separate carers who are there to support patients during this process. These little nitpicking changes to the Bill will just make it worse.

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Baroness Stedman-Scott Portrait Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)
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My Lords, I will speak to the probing Amendment 161 in my name. It asks the simple but profoundly important question of whether registered medical practitioners should be granted a blanket legal protection to raise the possibility of ending any person’s life or whether that protection should be carefully and responsibly limited to patients already in their care.

At the heart of this debate lies the issue of safety and trust. The relationship between a patient and their doctor is not a casual exchange. I hope it is a deeply personal, often vulnerable, bond built on confidence, continuity and professional responsibility. When someone receives a terminal diagnosis, they are not merely confronting medical facts; they are confronting fear, uncertainty and the fragility of their remaining time. In that moment, words matter immensely. To grant blanket legal protection to any registered medical practitioner, regardless of whether they have an established clinical relationship with the individual, risks undermining that trust. It risks introducing the possibility that a suggestion about ending life could come from a professional who does not know the patient’s history, values, mental state, family circumstances or vulnerabilities.

Amendment 161 does not seek to obstruct lawful medical practice or to deny terminally ill adults the autonomy that the Bill intends to provide. Rather, it seeks to ensure that conversations about assisted dying occur in the right context, within a relationship in which the doctor knows the patient, understands their condition and is responsible for their ongoing care.

We must consider the subtle power imbalance inherent in clinical settings. A doctor’s words carry authority. Look at the effect they have on the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, at times. For a patient who is elderly, disabled, isolated or feeling like a burden, even a carefully phrased suggestion can carry unintended weight. If such a conversation is initiated by a practitioner with no established duty of care, we risk normalising a culture in which ending life becomes a broadly available option rather than a carefully safeguarded patient-led request.

Limiting legal protection to practitioners involved in a patient’s care and case strengthens safeguards. It ensures that any discussion arises from clinical knowledge, not abstract eligibility; it reinforces accountability; it reduces the risk of inappropriate suggestion; and it protects vulnerable people feeling steered towards a decision at a moment of profound weakness.

Autonomy is meaningful only when it is protected from subtle coercion, even unintentional coercion. By supporting Amendment 161, we are not diminishing choice: we are strengthening the ethical framework in which that choice is exercised. In matters of life and death, precision, boundaries and safeguards matter. Amendment 161 offers a proportionate, reasonable and ethically sound safeguard. It preserves trust in the medical profession, protects vulnerable patients and ensures that, if such conversations occur, they do so within the context of established clinical responsibility. For those reasons, I urge the Committee seriously to consider the intent and spirit behind Amendment 161.

Baroness Cass Portrait Baroness Cass (CB)
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My Lords, I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that my mother held doctors in great esteem and reverence until the day that I and my rowdy friends qualified, and then the whole mystique was exploded overnight.

My serious point is that I am still mystified by Clause 5, because it remains completely unclear who is having this preliminary discussion. Even if we safeguard against the doctor raising the subject of assisted dying without it being initiated by the patient, none the less this clause is still opaque about who this person is. If, fortuitously, the patient has a good relationship with their GP and is able to raise the matter and have a full discussion, they may be able to cover all the things that are listed in this clause—diagnosis, prognosis, palliative care, hospice, available treatments and so on—but, if it is not their GP, who is the medical practitioner supposed to direct them to? Unlike the co-ordinating doctor and the independent doctor, they do not have the right written into the Bill to access the patient’s records or make inquiries of the person who is looking after them, so I am unclear about how they are supposed to discharge all these duties.

Also, it does not reflect reality. If somebody is starting to think about possibly seeking an assisted death, they may ask their GP about one part, their priest about another aspect, their next of kin about another aspect, and they will gradually form a view. But to lay it down in statute seems to be putting an additional hurdle in the patient’s way. Surely, at the time when they want to ask about the detail of assisted death, what it might entail and its feasibility, the person to seek advice from is the co-ordinating doctor or the first doctor within the voluntary assisted dying service, who will have had the training and will have some knowledge to be able to say with confidence what the individual should expect. So I strongly support my noble friend Lady Hollins’s view that Clause 5 should not stand part of the Bill, because it seems to be a complete muddle that we have been discussing various aspects of for some time now.

Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
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My Lords, I think the debate that we have had for the last two and a half hours shows this House in a very positive light. It goes to the very essence of what some of us who are sceptical about the Bill believe to be the most crucial issue: how the Bill will impact the most vulnerable people in society. I say in passing how moved I was by the wonderfully powerful and emotional speech from my noble friend Lady Monckton, as well as by my noble friend Lord Shinkwin’s speech on his amendment.

Noble Lords might ask a rhetorical question: why are we spending so much time on this particular group? I will offer an anecdote to your Lordships on why it is important that we have spent this time talking about people with disabilities and learning disabilities, and particularly people with Down syndrome. In the summer of 2024, my 91 year-old father was admitted to Peterborough hospital and spent a number of hours in what is euphemistically called “ambulatory care”—which is the back of an ambulance—before being able to access a trolley for a number of hours. As it happens, he was terminally ill. He died a few weeks later from bladder cancer that had metastasised to the rest of his body, but he did not have a diagnosis of terminal illness.

When I reached the hospital, his belongings were adjacent to where he was. At the bottom of the Sainsbury’s carrier bag that held all his personal belongings was a “Do not resuscitate” form that had been filled in. In fact, I think it was what they call—again, euphemistically—a “respect form”. It had been countersigned by a doctor without any discussion with myself or my two brothers. As your Lordships know, none of us are shrinking violets. My brother is a decorated police officer and my other brother is a world-leading scientist and a professor of psychology. We are all quite smart people, but this form had been completed without any discussion with the family.

Indeed, it was alleged that my father had had capacity to sign that form and had agreed to it being countersigned by a doctor. That was a very significant development. I found myself having to front up a difficult conversation with the clinicians in accident and emergency and the geriatrician who was on duty that day. I thought to myself: what if my father had a learning disability? What if he could not read or write properly? What if he was anxious about dealing with bureaucracy and professional people? I thought about how much more difficult it would have been if he did not have a family: if he had not had three sons watching out for him and protecting his interests. How much difficulty would there have been in him challenging the professional bona fides and authority of a clinician—a medic who is well educated and articulate and knows their profession.

I posit that that is the reason we have spent so much time debating these issues. It is not for people such as my father, who, as I say, was terminally ill, but for the many people who have great difficulty: people who are already in a position where they are sad, lonely, depressed, bereft and distraught after a diagnosis of a terminal illness. Those people need assistance in primary legislation to protect their interests, because otherwise no one else will look out for them. That is not to say that those doctors were in breach of the Hippocratic oath, or that they were not compassionate, empathetic, caring and feeling for my father and many thousands of other people in similar situations, particularly old people. Nevertheless, they are busy and stressed and that form was filled in in good faith.

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This was thought about in great detail and, in my view, the correct policy was reached; in relation to somebody without any sort of disability, it is right that you should leave it to the doctors, for the reasons I have given. I very much hope that my explanation of how it operates in practice shows that it means that it cannot be a random doctor. Again, I do not think that any change is required, having listened very carefully in relation to people without a disability.
Baroness Cass Portrait Baroness Cass (CB)
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I am still not sure what a person is supposed to do if they cannot access a doctor who is in possession of the full information. If the GP, for example, has a conscientious objection, that potentially puts a hurdle in that will stop them being able to move on to the next stage—they will have to cast around to find a doctor who can have that full discussion. I would have thought that the proponents of the Bill would not want that to happen.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton Portrait Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
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I completely understand what the noble Baroness is saying. Suppose you cannot find a doctor with that information about you—the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, is not talking about the sorts of cases that many noble Lords were talking about, where, by raising it, you are leading to a situation where somebody might be persuaded when they otherwise would not—the answer would be that you would have to consent to all your records being given to a doctor with whom you could have the conversation.

Noble Lords should remember that Clause 5(6) says:

“A registered medical practitioner who is unwilling or unable to conduct the preliminary discussion mentioned under subsection (3) is not required to refer the person to another medical practitioner but must ensure that the person is directed to where they can obtain information and have the preliminary discussion”.


So you can get assistance from a doctor who is not willing to have the discussion. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that, in order to have the discussion, the doctor has to have all the information I referred to. If no doctor in possession of that is willing then you will have to consent to it being given to somebody else—and a patient can consent to their records being given to another doctor.

I turn to the position for those with a disability and, in particular, will deal with the point so powerfully raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton. My Amendment 548A would require that anybody providing a relevant activity under the Bill—new subsection (8) defines “relevant activity” as including “conducting a preliminary discussion”—must not carry out that relevant activity unless the person seeking assistance has an “independent advocate”.

The amendment says that

“‘qualifying person’ means … a person with a mental disorder (as defined by section 1(2) of the Mental Health Act 1983) … a person who (in the absence of support) would experience substantial difficulty in doing one or more of the following … understanding relevant information … retaining that information … using or weighing that information as part of the process of making relevant decisions, or … communicating their views, wishes or feelings”.

Where there is to be a preliminary discussion, the person has to be accompanied by an independent advocate, unless—this is in new subsection (3) to be inserted by the amendment—the person

“seeking assistance informs the relevant person that they do not want an independent advocate, or … where the relevant activity is conducting a preliminary discussion, the person seeking assistance informs the relevant person that they are content for the preliminary discussion to be conducted without them having an independent advocate”.

What the sponsor of the Bill is aiming at there is as follows. If there is any question about one’s ability to process information—what the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, said about the suggestibility of people with Down syndrome is incredibly resonant—I would envisage the position to be that you have to have an independent advocate but you may not need to have one if it is known to the doctor, or if it becomes apparent, that a family member would be adequate. That would be a reason for not having an independent advocate. But, if there is no family member—for example, if the person suffering from a disability has no parents, siblings or whatever—there has to be an independent advocate.

It may be that the area I should focus on in the amendment on independent advocates is this: you can say no to the need for an independent advocate, maybe because you have nobody else, but is that too risky? I need to consider that, given the point on suggestibility raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, and Mr Ross of the Down syndrome advisory policy group, whom I have discussed that with.

The points made about people with a learning disability are, I hope, addressed in my amendments on an independent advocate. Ultimately, where there may be no family, the independent advocate has to be the rock-bottom protection.

I move on from that to children. I remind noble Lords that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, made clear, Clause 6 says:

“No registered medical practitioner or other health professional shall raise the subject of the provision of assistance in accordance with this Act with a person under the age of 18”.


It cannot be raised, and I completely stand by that. What happens if it or something like it is raised by a person who is under 18? I found what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, to be resonant and insightful. You have to deal with it in a sensible way. You cannot just say, “I’m afraid I can’t talk about that. That’s the end of it”. You have to treat the person with a degree of maturity.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, supported Amendment 211, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rook, which says:

“If a person under the age of 18 raises the subject of the provision of assistance under this Act, the medical practitioner must refuse to discuss the subject and shall inform the person that such assistance is not available to individuals under the age of 18”.


I am sure that the medical practitioner should say that it is not available to persons under the age of 18, but I am not sure that it would be wise for the Bill to prescribe that no further discussion is appropriate—particularly for 17 year-olds, who are often quite perceptive. The idea that you cannot have any discussion about this is just not practical or sensible and it would drive people to other sources, which may be more dangerous.

Moved by
122: Clause 4, page 2, line 24, at end insert “and a Voluntary Assisted Dying Director”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and other amendments in the name of Baroness Cass seek to separate the role of Voluntary Assisted Dying Director and Voluntary Assisted Dying Commissioner, and are intended to address the existing position of the Voluntary Assisted Dying Commissioner in the bill which is responsible for the monitoring and assurance of the Act, whilst also having a role in its operational delivery.
Baroness Cass Portrait Baroness Cass (CB)
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My Lords, I will be brief, because I believe that my Amendment 122 and the consequential amendments that follow it address a very straightforward and practical issue—saying that could be the kiss of death, but never mind. It is absolutely self-evident that, if this Bill passes into law, the monitoring of its implementation will be absolutely crucial.

There are several aspects of implementation that we will need to follow closely. The first is any evidence of the concerns that have been widely expressed in this House of coercion, particularly to take account of differentials in the socioeconomic circumstances of those seeking assisted deaths. Secondly, we need to be aware of postcode lotteries in implementation and particular challenges in staffing and delivery in certain localities. Thirdly, we need to be aware of creep, as has occurred in other jurisdictions.

In a later amendment, I have proposed that voluntary assisted dying services should be commissioned by the specialised commissioning team currently located in NHS England. This team commissions highly specialist small volume services, and the assisted dying services would fall within this definition. The advantage of this approach is that there would be a national service spec, nationally defined workforce requirements and quality standards, and monitoring of the contract by the national team.

In late January, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, notified us of his planned amendments to ensure that the service will be regulated by NHSE or the CQC, or both. However, it is not yet clear how that might work in practice. This leaves us with the currently proposed arrangements in Clause 4, in which the voluntary assisted dying commissioner has a dual role. He or she is required to take on much of the operational delivery of the process and, at the same time, monitor the operation of the Act and report on it to national authorities. I submit that it is not appropriate for the commissioner to be both poacher and gamekeeper and to mark their own homework, because they will be mixing their roles as shamelessly as I have just mixed my metaphors.

My amendments therefore seek to separate the role of the commissioner, to make it much more like that of the Children’s Commissioner, who is fully independent from the agencies she has oversight of, with a director to undertake the delivery aspects of the work. These may or may not be the finally agreed terms or mechanisms, but I think the intent is clear, and I leave it open to both the noble and learned Lord the sponsor and other noble Lords to discuss other ways in which this separation of roles might be achieved.

My only other point is to draw attention to my Amendment 131, which makes it clear that, although the commissioner is supposed to be an individual who has held high judicial office, neither the commissioner nor the director is discharging a judicial function in undertaking their responsibilities under this Act. On this point, I am just a warm-up for the noble Lord, Lord Weir of Ballyholme, who will doubtless speak further to his Amendment 129 on this aspect. I beg to move.

Lord Beith Portrait Lord Beith (LD)
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I will speak briefly to my amendment in this group because it is my duty shortly to chair the Committee. To broaden the debate that the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, introduced, I simply say that there is clearly a need to establish that this post can have confidence and a degree of consensus around it. I am not sure that that has been achieved by what has been proposed so far.

My amendment simply brings in the procedure used in the Commons for most regulatory posts: they are the subject of some sort of hearing process by the relevant Select Committee. That system was developed in the years when I was in the Commons, and as chair of the Justice Committee I operated it several times. It works reasonably well. In rare cases, the Treasury Committee, for example, has a veto on the appointment, as this amendment suggests, but it is a means of trying to ensure that the right questions are asked at the right time when appointments are made. Surely, after recent weeks, we have learned the lesson that, if you do not have proper scrutiny of appointments and a system in which the right questions are asked, things can go very badly wrong. We certainly do not want them to go badly wrong in this area. That is sufficient to explain what my amendment is about.

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Lord Falconer of Thoroton Portrait Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
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I apologise. I will talk about it in group 3.

Baroness Cass Portrait Baroness Cass (CB)
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Long speeches are unpopular at the best of times, but particularly as I now stand between noble Lords and lunch, so I will try not to make one. It has been a very useful group. We have had a lot of discussion about the appointment process, transparency, conflict of interest and how we ensure public confidence in the commissioner. I think we have reached a conclusion on that—one which may not satisfy everybody, but we have come to a place on it.

Beyond that, a lot of the concern has been about things that fall through the cracks, such as my noble friend Lady Freeman’s concerns about patient information, data, risks and patterns in care homes, and family involvement, which is important. My reflection is that I accept the noble and learned Lord’s view that we do not need to separate a delivery and a monitoring role, but it still seems as if the assisted dying commissioner, even acting with the greatest integrity, needs eyes in the back of his or her head to pick up on issues such as local fluctuations or other aspects of concern. I look forward to hearing about other ways in which things are going to be monitored carefully, whether by the CQC or NHS England, as the noble and learned Lord suggested, so that we can be reassured on those matters. With that, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 122.

Amendment 122 withdrawn.
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Again, the Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities has said that assisted dying should not be a solution to socially created suffering, and, to quote the Scottish Human Rights Commission, that requires a “robust” and “multilayered” approach to safeguarding. It is important that we have proper safeguarding, but—without reiterating the argument about the issues of mission creep—even without changes, quite often safeguards can be put in at the very start that then in practice, from a practical point of view, as time moves on, get watered down. If we are to try to counteract that and to have the most robust safeguards from the start, particularly for disabled and vulnerable people, having a high-water mark there is the best form of protection that we can provide in this particular aspect.
Baroness Cass Portrait Baroness Cass (CB)
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My Lords, I rise very briefly to draw attention to Amendment 928 in the name of my noble friend Lady Hollins, who cannot be in her place today. There are two ways of getting additional expertise: one is through consultation and the other is through having additional experts on the panel. Her amendment provides for having a safeguarding expert, a physician and a clinical psychologist on the panel, and she sets out the qualifications for each of those individuals. That would give a greater pool of expertise that could be selected from, appropriate to the needs of the particular person whose circumstances were being considered.

Lord Jackson of Peterborough Portrait Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)
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My Lords, I will focus my remarks on Amendment 462B, in my name, and support Amendments 463, 464 and 465, to which I have attached my name. Like my noble friend Lord Murray of Blidworth, this is the first opportunity I have had to contribute to this Committee’s deliberations and, like him, I last spoke on Second Reading.

The amendment requires a public notice to be issued 28 days before the panel intends to sit, which would enable members of the public to attend and potentially engage with the proceedings. I want to say in advance that this a probing amendment. I understand further work would need to be done, probably through regulations, to specify what any notice must entail and consider any further matters around privacy. I am open as to whether 28 days is the right notice period. Amendment 439, in the name of my noble friend Lady Maclean of Redditch, does a good job of addressing many of these concerns, in a way that aligns closely with existing practice directions in the Court of Protection.

However, those caveats aside, I trust that this amendment probes an important point. Schedule 2.6 states that:

“Panels are to determine referrals in public”,


but the public nature of the panel is surely illusory if interested parties are not notified that a panel hearing is taking place. How would anyone know when and where to turn up? I do not think we can gloss over this as a minor omission. Giving evidence to the House’s Select Committee, at page 143 the Law Society listed this issue among the things it is “really concerned about”. As it explains, it is unclear at the moment where the panels will be held and how people will know about them. That needs to be clarified and further information needs to be provided.

The point was also well made by the late Sir James Munby, the former president of the Family Division, whose comments continue to have an important influence on our deliberations. He described the Bill’s silence on a notification mechanism as “an astonishing omission”. He went on:

“Quite apart from all the other reasons why it might be thought desirable to make such provision in the Bill, the participation of others is necessary if the process is to have that degree of rigour which is essential if it is to be capable of identifying and preventing possible abuses, and in particular be adequate to detect what may be very subtle external pressures, and if it is to command public confidence”.


He was absolutely right. Supporters of the Bill have talked about how they intend this proposed law to bring end-of-life decisions “out of the shadows”. However, as drafted, the Bill provides for individuals to die in secrecy with the intentional assistance of the state. We cannot ignore the impact that this secrecy will have on the grief of families who hear that their loved one has died by assisted suicide only after the event, particularly if they possess relevant facts such as evidence of coercion or mental illness. The Committee may be aware of the tragic death last year of Maureen Slough from Cavan, Ireland. Her family reported their devastation at being informed of their mother’s assisted suicide via a WhatsApp message from a Swiss clinic. The same message also informed them that her ashes would arrive by post. The circumstances behind Ms Slough’s death were even more tragic. First, her brother, a UK solicitor, said Maureen had provided the clinic with “letters of complaint to medical authorities in Ireland in respect of bogus medical conditions” which the clinic allegedly used to support her application. Secondly, the clinic claimed to have received what appears to have been a forged letter from her daughter Megan, acknowledging her mother’s plans. These details, together with the fact that Ms Slough had long struggled with mental illness, suggest that there were potential red flags which may have been identified had the family been duly notified.

While supporters of the Bill may argue that the panel process is designed precisely to avert this kind of situation, I respectfully ask how we can be so sure. Remember that the panel operates on only a civil level of proof—in other words, on probability. To use an example from Ms Slough’s story, it is likely that the panel would have concluded, without hearing Megan’s claim that she did not write it, that the letter was more likely to be a forgery and so warrant further investigation. Perhaps so, but we cannot be sure and that is the problem.

We must also consider the importance of notification in light of the Bill providing no clear mechanism for families to intervene at a later stage once an eligibility certificate has been granted. To refer again to the late Sir James Munby, in his very eloquent words,

“the Amended Bill is entirely silent as to how the panel is to deal with the kind of issue exemplified by the Canadian case of AY v NB … where the patient’s partner intervened and obtained an interim injunction because of concerns about what was happening. What if the patient’s partner and relatives, excluded from participation in the panel process, discover, only after the panel has granted a certificate … facts of the kind which in AY v NB prompted an eleventh-hour intervention by the Canadian judge?”

This is a major hole in the Bill and, as it stands, if interested parties are to intervene, it must be at the panel stage and they must be informed of the panel meeting so that they can apply to submit evidence as necessary.

Finally, I want to address concerns that some noble Lords may have around the amendment’s requirement to publish the names of people referred to the panel and the potential impact this may have on privacy. I have thought long and hard about this. As I alluded to before, there is great merit in the proposal by my noble friend Lady Maclean in Amendment 439. However, one weakness is that it requires the commissioner to notify any other person properly interested in the welfare of the person. There is no clear way of establishing who they might be. How is the commissioner to know which friends to contact? One may just have vital information. Therefore, there is a benefit in requiring a more general notice.

I also observe that there are times where public interest is so great that it outweighs privacy concerns. Marriage, as a public institution, is a good example of this. I based the amendment on its notification requirements. In that context, the interest that we all have in defending that public institution means that a general notice is issued so that anyone can come forward with evidence of coercion or any other legal impediment. In considering public interest, we need to appreciate what is going on here.

In the words of my noble friend Lady May of Maidenhead at Second Reading, this Bill gives the state a licence to kill. Whatever our views on the subject, in handing the state this power there is surely great public interest in demanding maximum oversight and safeguards. The panel process should not be seen as totally analogous to the situation in the Court of Protection, where greater anonymity protections would normally apply. It is important to note that most cases in the Court of Protection involve patients who clearly lack capacity and have not consented to the process. Instead, cases usually involve best interest disputes between families and medics. However, in this process it is a basic requirement that the patient be able to consent.

In closing, I add this. Even if the House desires a more anonymised process, we need to debate the details of it. What restrictions would there be on media reporting? Who would determine the circumstances in which these restrictions apply? Perhaps the noble and learned Lord, the sponsor, can address these issues in his remarks. Without answers to these and other questions, the Bill risks the assisted suicide process being more shadowy and less transparent than would apply in cases in the Court of Protection. I do not think that this is acceptable.

Baroness Smith of Newnham Portrait Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
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My Lords, I speak as a member of the Select Committee that your Lordships’ House decided to convene at the end of Second Reading, partly because, although I am sure that noble Lords participating in this debate and this legislation will be fully aware of the evidence we took, this debate is broadcast and followed much more generally, so I think it is useful to put on record some of that evidence. We took evidence on palliative care from experts, some of whom oppose the principle of assisted dying and some of whom do not, but almost all raised concerns about the adequacy of palliative care in the United Kingdom.

In particular, following the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Brown of Silvertown, I quote— I apologise for reading, but I am reading from our report—Dr Suzanne Kite, president of the Association for Palliative Medicine of Great Britain and Ireland:

“Throughout this debate, there has been a strong consensus that current palliative care provision is inadequate, with many services under threat, and that this constrains choice at the end of life. We advocate strongly for the Government to commit to a national policy to ensure universal access to palliative care that is protected from negative financial impact of the introduction of any AD—assisted dying—service, better safeguards for patients, care workers and organisations and a public awareness campaign about normal dying”.


My first question is to the Minister. I realise that she is representing the Ministry of Justice rather than the Department of Health, but I hope she may nevertheless be able to respond. When we discussed the business Motion in the Chamber yesterday, the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Birmingham, said that the Minister in the House of Commons had suggested that the Government’s next information about the provision of palliative care would not come until after the assisted dying legislation had gone through Parliament. I think many people, whether or not they support the principle of assisted dying or support this legislation in principle, would feel much relieved if they could believe that palliative care was going to be more equitable across the country and that those in more deprived parts of the country would have the same access to palliative care as those in more affluent parts, because there is a disparity.

For many, there is a concern that the choice of an assisted death, which is what advocates of the Bill say they support, will not necessarily be an unconstrained one. If the choice were, “I have been offered everything, including state-of-the-art palliative care, and I still want an assisted death”, that would be quite different from the current proposals. Clause 5 says that the medical practitioner would need to make clear to somebody in a preliminary discussion all appropriate palliative, hospice or other care that is available. But if there is not adequate palliative care available—we know that 100,000 people are already dying without adequate palliative care—then the choice the medical practitioner is giving will not be a real one.

When I raised concerns with the experts who were giving us evidence on palliative care and whether this was a constrained choice or not, there was very much a sense from Dr Kite that she shared the concerns I had raised about the disparities of palliative care and that, for some people, there would not be a real choice. Her response was:

“I share your concern. Our members share your concern. This is fundamental to our position on the Bill”.


Professor Katherine Sleeman, who is also a professor of palliative care at King’s College London and a member of the Complex Life and Death Decisions group, who is not opposed to the principle of assisted dying, said that my point was

“exactly why the CLADD group has suggested that offering a referral to specialist palliative care is not enough. Everyone who says that they want an assisted death should receive a palliative care assessment, and that would go some way—not all of the way, but it would go some way—to addressing what we know about the inequalities in terms of access”.

In light of the evidence we received, I would be grateful to hear from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, how he would respond to the amendments in this group about palliative care. They seem to be fundamental to the concerns not just of people who might be opposed in principle to this Bill but of experts who really understand the detail. It is surely the duty of this House to ensure that any legislation passed really meets appropriate standards, and we should be very cautious about supporting legislation that does not ensure adequate access to palliative care.

Baroness Cass Portrait Baroness Cass (CB)
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My Lords, I will be brief, because many of the points have been made, but I would really like to make two points. My first point follows the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, about—I hesitate to use this term—“levelling up”. We know that there is a spectrum of provision available, not just in palliative care but in all the other aspects of care that a dying patient needs, as referred to in Amendment 221 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. I would love there to be the kind of wraparound care within the community that my noble friend Lady Gerada described, but for some patients that is not the case. So, specifying those components that should be available and making them available should be the basic right of every dying patient, particularly one who is carrying as onerous a decision as seeking an assisted death.

But I think the second, and equally important, point about this is front-loading the multidisciplinary assessment, and, ideally, having it clearly written down and held by the patient, which empowers the patient to hold that information and take it with them. Therefore, it facilitates the co-ordinating doctor, the independent doctor and the panel or judiciary process to have available that information from the team who know the patient best, so that they are not having to delay the process by scurrying around in hospital notes or seeking additional information late on in the process, when the patient will inevitably have made a decision, potentially with their family, and a delay due to missing information would be unbearable. So, front-loading is absolutely key to streamlining this process throughout.

Baroness O'Loan Portrait Baroness O'Loan (CB)
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My Lords, I have put my name to nine amendments in this group and I declare my interest as an unpaid trustee of a hospital which has a hospice attached to it.

We are very fortunate in your Lordships’ House to have among us distinguished doctors who have spoken with great experience and understanding of the need for access to expert palliative care when a person faces death from terminal illness. For many people, particularly those in care homes, such palliative care is simply not available. I think of my own mother, who died just three years ago and was in a care home, and for whom such care was provided either by the GP or by paramedics who came and administered morphine—that was not expert palliative care. Many people, if this Bill is passed, will be in exactly the same position as my mother, unless there is change to the current systems. Expert palliative care, as has been said, is unavailable in many parts of the country, and so it is not enough to know that expert palliative care could be available, it must be available. That is the most significant thing.