Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Tyler of Enfield

Committee stage
Monday 24th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to add my support to Amendments 143 and 144, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I added my name to these amendments. I am also very sympathetic to the other amendments in this group, both Amendment 142 and the two amendments that the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has just spoken to.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, introduced these amendments in an incredibly compelling, moving and, indeed, comprehensive way. In a way, I do not feel that there is very much for me to add. I did have to think quite hard—there was part of me that wanted an outright prohibition, but I recognise the state of the mental health services we have at the moment. Unfortunately, there are times—hopefully, in only a few desperate cases, as the noble Earl said, and for a very short time—when these measures have to be taken. As undesirable as I think it is, we need to recognise the world in which we live.

I would also like to underline—because most of the debate so far has been about children in adult wards, which is clearly hugely undesirable—the importance of considering children placed out of area. That is, so often, when there is no suitable or available bed. It goes back to the issues raised by my noble friend Lady Parminter about eating disorder beds. It is hugely detrimental for children and young people to be placed out of area, away from their support networks—their family and friends who they so desperately need as part of their recovery at a time of real crisis—so I want to underline the importance of that, as well as the importance of real transparency and rigour when a child is, very unfortunately, placed in an adult ward, hopefully for a very short period of time.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I come to this totally uneducated, so what I have heard this afternoon I have found very shocking. I agree with what has been said already, and I was particularly shocked by the comments from the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I would like to underline what the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, has said about the fact that these are children. They may be 17 and a half but, under the Children Act 1989, they remain children and, across all legislation dealing with children, “best interests” comes in.

From what I have heard, it sounds as though adult wards do not understand that these are genuinely children and have to be treated separately but, much more importantly, that their best interests are not necessarily, or almost certainly not, the same as those of adults. I wonder whether it should not be permeating all establishments, private and public, that, if they have to take into an adult setting those under 18, they have to deal with them in a special way. I remain horrified by what was said and I hope that the Minister, who is a particularly sympathetic person, will pick this up and take it across the board.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Tyler of Enfield

Committee stage
Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, I will very briefly underline my very strong support for Amendment 121 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I remind noble Lords of my relevant interests in the register.

The noble Lord set it out very clearly so I do not need to add to what he said, other than to say there is a great opportunity for us to ensure that, for the first time in legislation, finances are considered a key part of supporting recovery from a mental health crisis. I am aware of far too many stories of people suffering from severe mental health crises or who are detained whose finances go into complete and utter freefall. It is so difficult for them then to recover their finances. That often means, in turn, that they have further mental health problems. That is all I wanted to say. I support the noble Lord, Lord Davies, very strongly.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

In the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, I will just say that I support all these amendments. I expressed concern about under-16s and those aged 16-18, but that does not stop me thinking that these advance choice documents are an excellent plan. However, I am concerned about the point that the noble Baroness makes with Amendment 120. An independent mental health advocate would be extremely helpful, because there may be quite a lot of people who really would not know how to make an advance choice document, would be very concerned about it and might write down some really not very sensible things, when they could have help as to what they really wanted. I strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendment.