Brexit: Negotiations

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, we have not heard from the Cross Benches; I think we ought to hear from them.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

Perhaps the Minister can tell me what is meant by the letter from Mr Raab, which said that he could not support the declaration because,

“the regulatory regime proposed for Northern Ireland presents a very real threat to the integrity of the United Kingdom”,

whereas the Statement from the Prime Minister says that,

“the EU proposal for a Northern Ireland-only customs solution has been dropped and replaced by a new UK-wide temporary customs arrangement”.

Which is the situation?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The EU proposal for a Northern Ireland-only customs solution has indeed been dropped and replaced by a UK-wide temporary customs arrangement which protects the integrity of the UK. However, there are regulatory elements necessary to avoid a hard border that will apply to Northern Ireland only, including product standards on industrial goods and agricultural products, as well as regulations strictly necessary to maintain the single electricity market on the island of Ireland. There are already some regulatory differences between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

House of Lords: Size

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure and privilege to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and I respectfully agree with absolutely everything he said. It is very helpful to have this debate today. When I was interviewed as a Cross-Bench candidate, I was asked whether, if I got it, I would attend. I said that of course I would; it was a great privilege to be able to take part in legislation, having been interpreting legislation for the preceding 35 years.

I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, was asked by the Prime Minister whether he would attend. It seems to me that it is a question that should be asked of every possible Peer: otherwise, what on earth is the point of coming here, other than possibly the honour that other noble Lords have referred to, which should be treated in a rather different way? I have to say, remembering what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, said, that I attend nearly every day and I am not alone in that. I bitterly resent what he said about the Cross-Benchers not attending. Most of us attend very regularly and I hope that he might want to retract that, as it really is not a fair comment on the work that we do.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

May I intervene to say that I was certainly not referring to the noble and learned Baroness or to the large number of people who do attend regularly? But if she looks at the figures I got from the Library, she will see that of the three political groups and the Cross-Benchers, the Liberal Democrats have the highest attendance, Labour next, Conservative next and Cross-Benchers least. That is just the statistics of it. There are a number who, perhaps for good reasons, are unable to attend, and I think we should take account of that. I meant no insult whatever to the noble and learned Baroness, for whom I have the greatest respect.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I thank the noble Lord and withdraw what I said, because I understand what the statistics are. However, there is a hard core of Cross-Bench Members who attend very regularly and consider that our duty is to do the work of the House among other Peers.

I have to say that, being now 83, I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Steel and Lord MacGregor, that it would be a very sensible compromise that those who were 80 at the end of a Parliament should go. It would have the effect of immediately reducing the membership to not all that far above 600—so it would be a good idea.

There is, of course, another point: when this House is relocated there will be a lot of retirements, so it may be that by that stage a lot will be done. But this will be in 2022 or whatever it may be, and I entirely agree with other noble Lords that we absolutely have to get on with it now because the suggestion by the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, that 800 does not matter is quite simply not true, as many other noble Lords said. We are seen as ridiculous by many people and the word “bloated”, referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and which others have pointed out, is undoubtedly true.

Consequently, we have to move to the next stage, which obviously is the Select Committee. There is considerable unanimity on that. It should take evidence and make recommendations, and it should be done in months, not years. It should and could consider what steps this House could take by resolutions within our own procedures—but I recognise, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, said, that at some stage there may need to be legislation.

The Select Committee must identify what it is that we cannot do ourselves. Then, as the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, said, acting together we are actually very influential. We should use our influence, so long as this House is unanimous, to put considerable pressure on the other House to deal with patronage, which is an open sore, and other matters that we cannot deal with ourselves. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and the noble Lord, Lord Butler, that we could get a lot done both in our own work and in persuading the other place that we could have a Bill that would start in this House.

Disabled Children: Tax Credit

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Cross Benches.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, is the noble Lord, Lord Low, correct to say that a box was omitted from the form? If a box was omitted that should have been there, it seems to me that the department was at fault and therefore a question of law preventing compensation would not arise.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Baroness knows much more about the law than I do. It was indeed the case that, when a parent applied for DLA for a disabled child, they could tick a box indicating whether they were claiming tax credit. If they ticked the box, HMRC was automatically told and the benefit was automatically uprated. That is described as a back-up cover, and the law is quite clear that none the less, notwithstanding the box, it is still the responsibility of the claimant to notify HMRC of the change in circumstances. When you apply for tax credit, it says on the form that if your circumstances change you should advise HMRC. I have looked at this extensively this morning. I have given the reply that I have about the Government’s ability to make compensation for earlier years and the advice that they cannot under the legislation; and I have suggested in good faith a way through that might meet the injustice that many noble Lords feel has occurred.

House of Lords: Domestic Committees

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I rise with some diffidence because I have not served on any of the relevant committees but I would like to make two points. One is that, having read the report, I can say that it is excellent and I hope that it will soon be implemented. There is a very great deal behind it that needs to be done. I picked up with some interest what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, said about the way in which it will have to be implemented. Those were useful points, which the Leader of the House might wish to take into account.

For my second point, it is very convenient to be following the chairman of the Information Committee as I wanted to say a few words about that. First, I can tell the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, that I am delighted with my Nokia and do not need an iPhone. However, I am concerned about the very wide duties and remit of the Information Committee and the fact that it will be subsumed into the new services committee, which will also deal with a large number of other matters. Nobody has so far raised this issue, so I thought that perhaps I should. I shall take the Library as perhaps one of the most important examples, since several people have spoken about it. It would be very sad if the new services committee was so busy with other matters that it did not give sufficient time to the importance of the Library. I have had a huge amount of help from the research people in the Library on all sorts of issues; I know that so many other Members of this House have as well.

The Parliamentary Archives are not to be underestimated. They tend to be, unless someone really cares about them; the Information Committee clearly does. Will the new services committee do so? The digital services, such as information services for Members, public information about the House, the education and training service and broadcasting are all important and have had their own committee. I am quite concerned that they may not be given the same degree of concern and attention in a much larger committee. What is the Leader of the House going to do to make sure that that committee, which will affect us all in this House, is given proper attention when it is subsumed into this much larger committee?

UK Territorial Space: Spanish Incursions

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Courtown]

I do not see the relevance of whether the United Kingdom is a member of the European Union. On the relationships between Spain and the United Kingdom over these incursions, the Spanish ambassador is summoned frequently. Summoning is a very serious form of diplomatic protest. The extent to which we have employed it is particularly unprecedented when we talk about an EU and NATO partner.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

What will happen when the current two Royal Navy ships finish their work in 2017? Do the Government intend to have some decent ship to deal with the incursions by the Guardia Civil on their much faster boats?

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, our assessment is that the assets, structure and procedures of the Royal Navy’s Gibraltar Squadron are enough for the job but I take very careful note of what the noble Baroness said. We want to make sure that these challenging maritime incursions can be dealt with by our assets there.

Proposed Changes to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My noble friend has done the same homework, in a sense, as Mr Grayling, who made this point. He said that the only Bill that anyone could find at the moment that might be affected would be the one giving mayors powers over buses. I think that it would be something short of a constitutional crisis if someone suggested that one more provost should have a bus pass. Therefore, problems will arise, as I think everybody recognises.

My noble friend Lord Cormack asked why the Constitution Committee of this House should not do something about this so that this House is seen to act now. I made some inquiries about that and the answer I got was that it has been the long-established practice of the Constitution Committee of this House not to interfere with the procedural arrangements of the House of Commons—it has regarded that as being outside its remit.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, has avoided part of the problem by talking about a Joint Committee. However, we have to be careful how we exercise the undoubted power that we have in this House. There is an obvious sensitivity around this issue which, as we know, is felt strongly in English constituencies. The Government’s approach has been to say that we will probably carry the Standing Orders through in September. We will then take the opportunity that the Leader of the House has given us for a debate, and watch the issue very carefully. I hope that the noble Lords who have strong feelings on this matter will give evidence to the Procedure Committee and to the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee of the House of Commons when it considers the procedure.

The problem is in aligning the reluctance to interfere with the procedures of another place, which are its prerogative, with an acknowledgement of the experience of your Lordships’ House that can be brought to bear in a number of fields. I hope very much that this can be resolved. We all know that this is a difficult issue, but I hope that it can be approached sensibly and without producing conflict between this House and another place.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord a very naive question. Is there anything wrong in principle in having the Joint Committee as well as allowing the Standing Orders to go forward?

Legal Aid

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the Government have undertaken to listen, consult and work with the profession, and we continue to do so. However, in the current economic climate and indeed with the crisis that we inherited, we needed to look across the board to ensure that efficiencies could be had. Even with the efficiencies that we will be making from this series of cuts, £1.5 billion will continue to be spent on legal aid—a figure that is among the highest in the world.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister appreciate that the figures that the Government have been giving for the incomes of members of the criminal Bar refer to turnover before VAT, tax and chambers expenses are taken off, and that therefore these figures are utterly misleading?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the Government and indeed my honourable friend Shailesh Vara, who is the legal aid Minister, have made it quite clear that when we have referred to these figures—for example, the average figure of £84,000—they have related to fee income. The Government recognise that costs are to be taken from that fee income, and we have talked about that.

Procedure of the House

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

As the Chairman of Committees made clear earlier, on both proposals some of the precise details of how one can address these points will need to be worked through. For example, it would be possible to have criteria around the amount of support that there was for a particular balloted Motion, such as the number of people. It is also the case—this is why one would need to work this through and come back to the House before going nap on it, because that is also extremely important—that, as the Procedure Committee knows only too well, every suggestion that might address a particular problem can give rise to another set of problems. That is the kind of thing we would need to address.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

At the moment I am somewhat neutral and not at all sure which way I would want to vote. One point that is made by the sixth report, and which was put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, concerns dealing with issues that are either topical or of long-term national importance. The difficulty about the ballot is that you cannot get those issues in, perhaps at rather short notice, for an hour’s debate. How would the noble Lord expect that issue to be dealt with?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On the principle of having to set some criteria, for example on identifying topicality, I shall just go back one stage. I am very glad to have been able to come up with this new proposal for guaranteed time, once a week, to deal with a topical issue on the Floor of the House. I very much accept that we need an opportunity to do that. One would need to establish some points around topicality in exactly the same way as a Back-Bench debates committee will have to come up with a set of criteria within which it would operate in choosing those debates. I accept that we would need to do that work; I would need to come back and show the House those processes.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 1)

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords, I have had the privilege of sitting in your Lordships' House for only 18 months but I have received the warmest of welcomes, particularly at Oral Questions. I have also learnt three unique characteristics of your Lordships' House. The first is that all noble Lords are equal. There is no stronger manifestation of that characteristic than at Question Time, when one has the privilege to be heard because it is the will of your Lordships that one should be heard. Secondly, this is a self-regulating Chamber and noble Lords hear from whom they want to hear in the context of the Question being discussed and the expertise that is present in the Chamber at the time of the discussion. Finally, I have learnt that there is a very important constitutional role for the Leader of the House which goes far beyond his responsibility as a member of the Cabinet and far beyond his responsibility as leader of the governing party in this House—the obligation to every Member of your Lordships’ House to serve their interests and to ensure that the will of the House is properly communicated and understood. To divide the Leader of the House from the specific responsibilities that we discussed at Oral Questions today runs the risk of removing this overall obligation which the Leader of the House has to all noble Lords.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, after the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, I am very tempted to say—as yet another fairly recent Member of this House, having joined just over five years ago—that I am not entirely happy with the way in which Question Time is seen by the public. We do not behave as well as we should. However, I do not think that the current proposal would make it much better, for all the reasons that have been given. It seems to me that two things should happen. First, I think that the Leader of the House or the Chief Whip should occasionally make it clear whose turn he or she thinks it is. That is not always as clear as it might be. Secondly, it is time that we, as Members of this House, used self-regulation to mean self-regulation of each individual—we should behave better. We should sit down when other people are standing and hope that we will have a chance, but if we do not get a chance to speak, we should hope that we will have a chance next week. That is one of the reasons why I do not speak very often at Question Time. I feel that others have something to say and I want to speak only when I really have something to say. If we are proud of self-regulation, we have an obligation to regulate ourselves.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I am for self-regulation but I think that the usual channels could help us a little. We could be clearer, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, said, about whose turn it is and what the rules are. I think that there is a blockage in the usual channels which should be cleared. It creates conflicts every Question Time, which is unnecessary. I also think that the leaders of individual parties should be much better at disciplining their own members—either those who speak too frequently and stop others speaking or those who speak at too great a length. I get the impression that there is no effective discipline in that respect. It would help if one knew that someone who sins will be dealt with afterwards.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord took the opportunity to expand a little more on his strength of feeling, much of which I share, about our county. I think that the noble Lord will agree that the arguments that we have heard about London and Tyne and Wear strengthen the concern. They are a geographical reality, which emphasises the point that we are both making.

There is one other issue that needs serious consideration. We live in an insecure age and one of instability. It is important to have communities as the basis for security and stability. London is a huge multicultural gathering of people. It is possible in that situation for people to feel that they have no particular identity whatever. Surely in London of all places, with its great mass of people coming together, it is important that people can develop a sense of community and belonging, a sense of being able to discuss their anxieties with others and bring their representations to bear. For all those reasons, the issue of the constituency community base is fundamental. I simply cannot envisage how we can continue to have a representative democracy if we diminish the significance of the constituency.

My noble friend Lady Armstrong made a particularly powerful speech. I was a friend of her father and knew him well. She made a strong point about her father breaking his loyalty with his party because he felt so strongly about these matters. I would have only one argument with her. The other day, she talked about the link being broken. I ask her to consider that it is not a link but the fundamental cornerstone of a meaningful representative democracy. If we tamper with that, what road are we beginning to go down?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, this is the first time that I have spoken on the merits of the Bill and I want to be brief. I have two points to make. It is important that there is a degree of flexibility for certain communities. The community that I want to speak about is Newcastle. As a complete outsider to Newcastle, I sat there as a judge on numerous occasions and was the family division liaison judge for the area. There is absolutely no doubt that Newcastle is, among other parts of the country, one of the most obviously tightly knit communities. The river undoubtedly divides Newcastle from Gateshead. I could have replicated the lovely story told by the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, although without his accent, because I actually asked where Gateshead was and people were very unkeen to tell me.

[Lord Soley]

I support Amendment 75ZB on the River Thames. It is a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, because she has put her finger on the problem again, just as she did in the debate on the Isle of Wight. If the Government are really concerned to do the equal voting bit, they need to face up to the fact that the way to do that is to go down the road of PR and get rid of the constituency link. I personally would strongly oppose that, but that is the way in which you equalise votes. In doing that, you destroy the constituency link, which has always been the centrepiece of British parliamentary democracy.

I remember being followed around by a Dutch television team in two general elections. Each time they expressed amazement that an MP had to stand on corners and go out into the constituency to campaign for votes in the local area. Their own MPs, because they were on a list system, could talk about general issues and not relate them to constituencies in the same way. It is a major difference. Now that the Government have accepted—although they might reverse it in the House of Commons—the Isle of Wight example, we should recognise that we need, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, some flexibility in these other areas.