Great British Energy Bill

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, but also to comment on the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that we need to get it right quickly or we cannot go there, but I hope we can go there. I was very encouraged that the Secretary of State said he might now prioritise the Acorn Project, the cluster in Scotland. That will be very welcome news for a very beleaguered Scottish industry that feels, frankly, that the Government are against it, and this would at least be a positive in the other direction.

On the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and the comments of the noble Lord. Lord Teverson, the point has been made that the number of people is quite significant, but, if you look at the total across the UK, it is a relatively small percentage. The reality, however, is that, in some parts of the country, a very large percentage of people are genuinely concerned about what the future will hold. The point about Northern Ireland is the most powerful one. I thank the Minister very much for the meeting that he had with us, but what was discussed then was that the Irish Government seem to be on the verge of going down exactly the route that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is recommending. That would clearly be an all-Ireland solution for the north of Ireland, but it would be rather odd if the UK could not find a way of running something similar at the same time.

I have just one other comment. The Minister gave me the impression that the priority for the Government was to get as many heat pumps installed as possible. I completely support that, but the reality, as has already been said, is that quite a lot of the houses are not actually suitable for heat pumps. I do not think there is a conflict here, but the point I would like to make to the Minister is: by all means promote heat pumps as much as you can, but recognise that some parts of the country need a solution fairly urgently, and heat pumps may not be the answer. So the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has much to commend it and I hope the Government can give a positive response to it.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I rise very briefly, first to offer Green support for the two amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. I have just one point to add to our discussion of biomass. The Baroness, Lady Young, referred to the issue of using land that might be used for food production to produce biomass for energy. There is also a point about waste biomass. We talk about it as waste, but one thing we desperately need to do is store more carbon in our soil, and that is an alternative use of things that are being described as waste.

It may not surprise your Lordships’ House that I will speak against both the carbon capture and storage and the nuclear amendments in this group. I will be very brief, but I want to add a couple of factual points and respond to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, about why anyone would be against CCS. I point to SaskPower’s Boundary Dam 3 in Canada, which, after nine years and $1 billion, now has a capture rate for carbon dioxide of 57%, although it was built with the promise of 90% capture. That is what has happened in a number of projects around the world which have simply failed to match up to delivery.

I compliment the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, for acknowledging the report from the Public Accounts Committee. This is a group with no particular horse in this race that has looked objectively at the Government’s plans and expressed great concern about the risk. One thing that the Public Accounts Committee rightly points out is that scientific evidence recently is showing that producing liquid fossil gas, which is planned to be used to run several CCUS projects, actually leads to the release of more greenhouse gas into the atmosphere than had been thought and so is less “green” than has been claimed. I think the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, said, “Well, we don’t want to increase consumer bills”. The Public Accounts Committee notes that three-quarters of the almost £22 billion is envisaged to come from levies on consumers. That is where the funding is expected to come from.

Just very briefly on the nuclear points, I note that we are now up to £130 billion for clearing up old nuclear, Hinkley Point C is running behind time and well over budget and there is great concern about the £40 billion Sizewell C plans. I am sure that noble Lords will want to come back by citing small modular reactors as a response to this. I will just note that the Government on 6 February put out a press release headed “Government rips up rules to fire-up nuclear power”—rather Trumpian sounding, I think. Noble Lords might want to consider: do you actually want a small modular reactor on your doorstep or in your back yard?

[Noble Lords]

Yes!

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Well, I ran that test at Eton College and I did not get many yeses from there.

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[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, may I add to the outbreak of harmony by thanking the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the Minister for Amendment 8? As the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, said, it is great to see local community benefit coming on to the face of the Bill. Especially since all the supporting material about GB Energy is very strong on community energy schemes, it just seemed rather crazy that it was not in the Bill, so I say thank you for that.

Ideally, of course—we environmentalists are miserable people who always want more, so I am moving on to Amendment 22, to which I also have added my name—with the Government having gone as far as Amendment 8, which puts community energy schemes on the face of the Bill, it would be quite nice to get slightly more specific recognition that such schemes need to be part of the strategic priorities. Therefore, can the Minister say why he will not accept Amendment 22, which I assume he will not support?

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I shall join in the general outbreak of harmony that has struck your Lordships’ House and welcome government Amendment 8 on community energy. This is one more demonstration that campaigning works—but, boy, does it often take quite a long while. I really must commend Community Energy England, Green Alliance, and Peers for the Planet, which have all been pushing this issue for a very long time. I also commend your Lordships’ House collectively, because your Lordships may recall that, in the previous Government’s Energy Bill—now an Act—this was the last amendment standing, as we defended again and again the need to include community energy on the face of that Bill. Perhaps this is a demonstration to your Lordships’ House that it is a good idea to stand up for principles, because eventually you will get there, even if it takes some time.

To echo the remarks of the noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady McIntosh, yes, we would like to see the Government go further, both in the strategic priorities and in the sense that we need long-term, stable policies. I remember meeting so many community energy groups that were just about ready to go when the feed-in tariff was ripped out from underneath them and their projects collapsed after so much voluntary effort had been put in. The people doing this need the certainty to know that this will work and deliver, and that means long-term, stable policies.

Turning to Amendment 14 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, I can say that, based on the clarification that he has just provided, the Green group will be pleased to support his amendment, should he press it to the vote.

In the previous group, we were talking about Drax, which has benefited from £6 billion of subsidies since 2012, which the people and the planet cannot afford anymore. Imagine if that £6 billion had gone into home energy efficiency instead; there is good evidence to show that we would have needed so much less generation in the first place. The cleanest, greenest energy that you can possibly have is the energy that you do not need to use. There are not only the environmental benefits and the cost-of-living benefits, as huge as they are; there are also the public health benefits, since so many people live in unhealthy homes. Your Lordships’ House often talks about productivity and all the people of working age who are not in paid work. The quality of our homes is a big issue there, and that must not be forgotten as an added bonus, as well as the environmental and cost-of-living ones.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I too very much welcome the Government’s Amendment 8 and thank the Minister for the productive engagement we had in between Committee and Report.

I also thank the Minister for facilitating the very useful discussion with the CEO of Great British Energy on local area energy planning, which tunes into some of the things we are doing in the Midlands. I would welcome a brief reassurance from the Minister on local area energy planning and how that is to be taken forward. One of the concerns is that it is absolutely vital to get local authorities engaged in the process and have that bottom-up view on energy assistance governance to match the top-down view that will be brought forward in the spatial strategic energy plan, as other noble Lords have said. Local energy planning is central to that, but we have seen a great disparity in the UK, with large, well-funded combined authorities and councils taking a rigorous approach, but other, less well-funded ones simply not having the resources to do that. Great British Energy could provide a key role here in funding local authorities and in having that view across the system of local area energy planning. I would welcome some reassurance from the Minister on the way forward for local area energy plans. Will they be one of the things that Great British Energy invests in?

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[Lord Wigley (PC)]

I intervene very briefly to support the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, moved. I thank him for the campaign he has run on this issue for several years now, and for the way he has defended those who are enslaved or used in other countries—China in particular, but in other parts of the world as well. It is right and proper that we bear this in mind when we legislate and when we set up an organisation of the sort we are discussing.

I do not think that any of us, in any party in this House, would want to see us benefiting from the sort of suffering that has happened in other countries. The noble Lord mentioned China, but there are other countries where this happens. It is a consideration that should come into the deliberations we have as we build a new organisation with immense responsibilities and resources at its disposal. Those should not—in any shape or form—be used to support people who are being exploited in the way that they are in some overseas countries. I have no doubt that the Government would agree with that as an approach; the question is how we turn it into practice.

In supporting this amendment, I say that I too have links with Siemens. I am sure that we would not want to paint it with a brush of what happened during the war. Many other companies that have emerged in the post-war world would not want to have too much exploration of what happened during the Nazi regime. Having said that, I very much hope that there is some way in which the Government can respond to this amendment and that some guidance can be given to Great British Energy to ensure that no advantage is taken of those who are not in a position to defend themselves.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I offer Green support for Amendment 18 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and a range of other distinguished Members of your Lordships’ House. I will also speak to my Amendment 19, which goes further than the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, but which demonstrates just how moderate and reasonable his amendment is. Your Lordships’ House, the British Government and many parts of British society have long expressed their absolute horror at modern slavery, so surely we can put this into this important Bill, where it is such a crucial issue, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, identified.

The noble Lord mentioned the Democratic Republic of the Congo and how the issues of modern slavery there, as well as child labour amounting to modern slavery, are very much an issue in terms of the energy supply chain. My amendment refers to

“credible evidence of deforestation or human rights abuses”.

I will take human rights abuses first. Much of what is happening in the Democratic Republic of the Congo might not fit the definition of modern slavery, but it absolutely fits the definition of human rights abuses. I note that I was at a briefing today with the DRC Foreign Minister, Thérèse Kayikwamba Wagner, who gave us the news, which has since been more widely reported, that, sadly, the ceasefire that had been called in the eastern Congo had been broken by M23, backed by the Rwandan Government. We have already seen nearly 3,000 people killed and some 3,000 people injured, and we heard from the Foreign Minister that, sadly, they expect those figures to rise very significantly. These are violent human rights abuses—there is simply no other term.

To tie this to the Great British Energy Bill, it is worth noting that the DRC produces 70% of the world’s cobalt, yet it somehow disappears without trace and reappears out the other side as legal, apparently appropriately sourced material, without any traceable chain to account for that. Of course, the people of the Democratic Republic of the Congo do not benefit financially from that. It is others—damaging, dangerous, aggressive forces—who benefit from it.

I wrote the amendment in this particular way because it goes back to the passage of what became the Environment Act, during which a number of noble Lords here today had much the same debate, with the tying together of deforestation and human rights abuses. One of the issues here is that indigenous people are responsible for protecting huge amounts of the world’s forests, and abuse of their rights is very much tied to the destruction of deforestation. I will note just one stat: if deforestation was a country, it would be the third-largest emitter of carbon behind China and the US. Much of that deforestation is of course linked in particular to agriculture. But in the DRC and parts of Latin America in particular, mining and deforestation are intimately linked.

So, your Lordships’ House has before it two amendments. I do not plan to push mine to a vote, but I offer the Green Party’s strongest support to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his amendment. How could we not vote to ensure that there is action on modern slavery?

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak also in favour of Amendment 18 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, and the noble Lords, Lord Offord and Lord Teverson. I will speak briefly and will not repeat the arguments that I made in Committee.

We believe in people and planet, and we should never have to choose one or the other. The two are intertwined and co-dependent. Our goal of reaching net zero must not come at the expense of supporting repressive regimes that do not support the human rights of their own citizens, or on the back of slave labour.

In brief, we are very supportive of the intentions behind this amendment, but we feel that the ultimate solutions lie above and beyond GB Energy. The real solutions in the UK are about working with our allies and partners to develop our own manufacturing capacity for solar panels in particular, so that we are free of those from China. California has made progress on this; it can be done, particularly working with our European allies. This is really important stuff that the Government need to get to grips with.

We do not want to see GB Energy put at an unfair disadvantage vis-à-vis every other private contractor or engineering company doing solar panels in the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, has already spoken about this, but I know that noble Lords will be very grateful to Jürgen Maier for having come and spoken to us. Unfortunately, I was off at the time, but my understanding is that it was a very good and productive meeting, and that he gave very strong and powerful arguments and responses to questions that were put to him on these issues. GB Energy, as we know, also has lots of stringent reporting requirements in place, including under the Modern Slavery Act.