Transport Committee
Wednesday 4th November 2026
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09:16
Samantha Dixon
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Samantha Dixon
Order. Welcome to this morning's evidence session. It's a one off evidence session on delivery of the East West Rail programme. We'll be hosting two panels today. During our first panel, we're examining why passenger services are not yet operating on the completed first section of the line between Oxford and Milton Keynes, and our second panel will turn our attention to the delivery of the remainder of the line through Cambridge. So through to Cambridge, I mean.
So could I ask our first panel of witnesses to introduce themselves?
So could I ask our first panel of witnesses to introduce themselves?
09:17
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09:18
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Well, I understand there have been some technical delays which relate to land ownership around one of the stations, and the fact that the contract wasn't let until later than it should have been due to the general election. But for us, our involvement in this is related to the passenger services in the operation of the staff. We only commenced consultation around staffing arrangements in July of this year, despite being in contact with people since 2024 on the issues at stake, particularly the operation of the trains in terms of the train crew. And so that must play a part in it.
But I understand there's some operational problems too. But you've got people here more responsible for that than me. For us, it's about the method of operation on the train. And we're in negotiations as we speak on that. Dave.
But I understand there's some operational problems too. But you've got people here more responsible for that than me. For us, it's about the method of operation on the train. And we're in negotiations as we speak on that. Dave.
09:19
09:19
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I really share the frustration that residents along the route have, and shared the ambition to get these services open as soon as possible. The department continues to work really closely with Chiltern to get passenger services up and running. And we've made significant progress in completing the remaining tasks that have been alluded to for mobilization, mobilization of services, including training of drivers, including the completion of modifications to the trains, and on completing works at Winslow, which is in the process of being handed over. The remaining works include the agreement of the operating model for the railway, and we need to have that completed before we can look at the dates for getting passenger services in play.
09:21
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of what the panel said there. I think in terms of a lot of progress has been made in terms of the three areas of operational readiness which children are involved with from a training point of view. We have taken trains from WMT. The 196 trains. Modifications have been completed now, and we've made good progress in terms of the acquisition and and testing from a stations point of view. We operate Winslow Station. The fit outs now largely complete the legal transfer to Chilterns in flight. And we've completed all our staff recruitment there.
So good progress on stations in terms of the running of train service itself. We've recruited and trained 44 drivers, which is a big task for a relatively small training operating company, and they are well advanced in their training, both from acquisition of the original driver train licences through to specialist knowledge needed for the route and the types of trains they'll be driving as well. The outstanding still some outstanding tasks before we can move into operations of services, and one of those is to reach agreement, which we haven't been able to do yet with the RMT.
I think Aslef position, as Dave said, has been quite consistent really from a sequencing point of view. We need to have a resolution with the RMT and between the RMT and Chiltern to allow us to finalize those conversations with the Aslef. Then there's perhaps set it out later. There's then some other tasks that need to be done once agreement is reached from.
So good progress on stations in terms of the running of train service itself. We've recruited and trained 44 drivers, which is a big task for a relatively small training operating company, and they are well advanced in their training, both from acquisition of the original driver train licences through to specialist knowledge needed for the route and the types of trains they'll be driving as well. The outstanding still some outstanding tasks before we can move into operations of services, and one of those is to reach agreement, which we haven't been able to do yet with the RMT.
I think Aslef position, as Dave said, has been quite consistent really from a sequencing point of view. We need to have a resolution with the RMT and between the RMT and Chiltern to allow us to finalize those conversations with the Aslef. Then there's perhaps set it out later. There's then some other tasks that need to be done once agreement is reached from.
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09:25
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah. So what needs to happen now if I can set out maybe the sort of the key steps and we can write and offer a bit more detail if this this is helpful to the to the committee. Our priority is to agree method of operation with the RMT. That will then allow us to finalise discussions and reach agreement with Aslef. Once we've done that to achieve those two points, there is then some further work required in terms of updating things like training materials, which will reflect the agreed method of operation, and then there is some final training to be done on things like final safety validations with the Office of Rail and Road, which is our safety regulator.
So the key sequence of events are those to reach agreement with the with the trade unions, which is a very much alive discussion.
So the key sequence of events are those to reach agreement with the with the trade unions, which is a very much alive discussion.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And we initially reached out to talk to people in 2024 and have had a series of conversations with people in industry and government since, but we haven't started formal consultation around staffing matters until July of this year. So that's one of the reasons why we're disappointed this could have been dealt with sooner, we think.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Presently, what's being proposed is 31 customer service staff would work on the trains in a customer service role. And we're saying to give those staff the full suite of safety responsibilities for train evacuation, protection of the line, and all of the other duties. We've seen guards undertaking derailments recently. The difference in salaries, about five grand. So this could be resolved.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Part of it. So it's not an argument about who presses a button to open the door. It's about who. Who has got a role in managing the platform train interface process. So this could be we're talking about less than 40 staff. We're talking about somewhere between 100 and 5200 grand annually. We're talking about probably 0.3% of the payroll bill to resolve this. We're in negotiations, and we're hoping we can get a resolution.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yes, I can answer that in terms of a little bit of a history. So the original specification for the East West Rail was as driver only operated, which means there is one person with full safety accountability, including operating of the doors and dispatch, and that form part of the specification for East West Rail. When Chiltern became the operator acting under that specification in March 2025. Chiltern supported that, though, so it wasn't it wasn't imposed on Chiltern. Chiltern operates around 73% of its services at the moment within driver only operations, and I think we were we were selected following a selection criteria and process, which the Department did as well.
Does that fully answer the question?
Does that fully answer the question?
09:34
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09:34
Samantha Dixon
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Samantha Dixon
Can I before we go any further on the details of this, can we just be quite clear that there's a driver only operation DOO refers to just one person on the train who's a driver. The driver, DCO is the driver controlled operation. But that the assumption on when we talk about DCO is there's a second person on the train, and the discussion is about what they're doing, not whether or not there is a second person on the train because that has been resolved.
Yes. Yes. Okay. Sorry. Thank you. Alex. Go on.
Yes. Yes. Okay. Sorry. Thank you. Alex. Go on.
09:35
Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
09:36
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Not particularly. But if you're going to staff a train, we think it makes better sense to have that person fully trained with the ability to operate the full suite of safety responsibilities. It seems to us not to make sense to staff the trains, but then not have that person with the ability to carry out the full suite of safety responsibilities that a fully trained guard would have. That doesn't seem to make sense to us.
09:37
Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Thank you. And can you explain? So you were saying before that that second safety critical member of staff would have responsibilities for evacuation, for example, which I think we could all understand. Could you explain particularly the issue of dispatch? Because clearly, across quite a lot of the railway, we've just had some stats. Drivers are managing to operate the doors. Is that why is that safety critical?
09:38
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
So just to explain, the platform train interface is very important because it's where we find an overrepresentation overrepresentation of of incidents where people are hurt on part of the network. That is driver only operation. So out of the train operating companies run by the DFT, there is only one which is fully driver only operation. The majority of services are still run with a with a safety critical guard on board. There are plenty of. There are some companies where there's a mix of driver only and guarded operation. But what we see is about 70% of of incidents related to the platform train interface happen on the D services.
So traps and drags people falling down between the train and the platform and so on, where you've got somebody responsible for the dispatch process. It allows the driver to be responsible for the movement of the train driving the train, and it allows that person to deal with issues around accessibility, people with additional needs getting on and off, and incidents that happen in that area. And we've seen plenty of occasions where, in fact, it's been indispensable to have someone with those safety responsibilities on board, most recently the derailment near Bedford. And of course, the tragic events that happened on the East Coast last year.
So we think those things are important. And for the sake of in this instance, maybe 150, 200 grand plus on the wage bill a year to have those safety responsibilities and competencies, we think that's probably best value for the public and a better settlement overall, rather than staffing the trains, but staffing them with people unable to carry out those safety roles and responsibilities.
So traps and drags people falling down between the train and the platform and so on, where you've got somebody responsible for the dispatch process. It allows the driver to be responsible for the movement of the train driving the train, and it allows that person to deal with issues around accessibility, people with additional needs getting on and off, and incidents that happen in that area. And we've seen plenty of occasions where, in fact, it's been indispensable to have someone with those safety responsibilities on board, most recently the derailment near Bedford. And of course, the tragic events that happened on the East Coast last year.
So we think those things are important. And for the sake of in this instance, maybe 150, 200 grand plus on the wage bill a year to have those safety responsibilities and competencies, we think that's probably best value for the public and a better settlement overall, rather than staffing the trains, but staffing them with people unable to carry out those safety roles and responsibilities.
09:41
Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
And in terms of a person sort of hopping on and off the train to dispatch it, I would say sometimes as a passenger, I felt they spent a lot of time getting on and off and then perhaps aren't walking up and down the carriages as much, particularly on busier surfaces, so might not be spotting other issues on board the train, perhaps antisocial behaviour or something like that. Is that is that an issue that you recognise that if somebody is literally having to get off the train at each station, press a button, etc., that they might not be, you know, manning the full length of the train as much as somebody whose job was literally to, to walk up and down it rather than have a roll at each individual station.
09:43
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think all of those things are important, but please bear in mind on a lot of our network, accessibility is important. A lot of incidents, anti-social behaviour otherwise don't just happen in the carriages of a train. Having a person with a role in the in the dispatch process is important. As well as the other duties that are carried out. So I don't see that there's a conflict between the two, if I'm honest with you.
09:44
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So in terms of the safety validation, we have done a lot of work around that. We can't finalize safety validation until we have a method of operation. Agreed. But we are very confident that there's nothing unique or particular to that line of route, which is different to the rest of our route that will present any risks. I think in terms of the inspectors, which is a current role we already have on train. They do have some element of safety. Roles and responsibilities, but obviously not the dispatch of the train, but some of the things which I know the public are very interested in terms of assurance for people maybe travelling at night, extra visibility, etc.
they can provide that and also anti-social behaviour as well. In terms of the safety validation that that will be will be finalised once we have agreed method of operation. I think previous evidence submitted to this committee from the Office of Rail and Road has set out the safety points around this, and very much providing the right infrastructure and training is in place. It is deemed a safe method of operation by our safety regulator.
they can provide that and also anti-social behaviour as well. In terms of the safety validation that that will be will be finalised once we have agreed method of operation. I think previous evidence submitted to this committee from the Office of Rail and Road has set out the safety points around this, and very much providing the right infrastructure and training is in place. It is deemed a safe method of operation by our safety regulator.
09:49
09:49
Steff Aquarone
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Steff Aquarone
Thank you. Eddie, you just take a step back from this issue of the low six figure difference between worlds, which, you know, as a just in case thing, sounds like a very small amount of money, but it's a much bigger amount of money to put these customer service inspectors on. When previously it was a driver only operated proposal, you rejected that on the grounds of customer safety. In August this year, we just heard from Tony. When they see that as having sort of reached a compromise offer. Have you had any further discussions with them on this particular issue since then?
09:50
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Yes. It's worth saying we first began speaking to Chiltern about this issue in the summer of 2024. We've had a series of meetings with Chiltern and with DFT right the way through. We didn't begin formal consultation on staffing arrangements until the summer of this year, but we are in discussions now and we're in good discussions. We hope and we're trying to find a resolution, so we are working through that and have been in conversation right the way through. It's worth pointing out we have been very clear from the start where the union stands on this question.
I think it's fair to say , until arrangements were put in place following the general election, it made things a bit more difficult to progress, but we have had good conversations and continue to have those, and we're in negotiations now outside of this issue. This is a place where we've got remarkably good industrial, industrial relations. Our local officials and reps and the management side in Chiltern Railways. Get through industrial relations very well and have done for some time. This is one area where, sadly that's not landed, but we are in negotiations as we speak and we're hopeful we can make progress.
I think it's fair to say , until arrangements were put in place following the general election, it made things a bit more difficult to progress, but we have had good conversations and continue to have those, and we're in negotiations now outside of this issue. This is a place where we've got remarkably good industrial, industrial relations. Our local officials and reps and the management side in Chiltern Railways. Get through industrial relations very well and have done for some time. This is one area where, sadly that's not landed, but we are in negotiations as we speak and we're hopeful we can make progress.
09:53
Steff Aquarone
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Steff Aquarone
I'm sure other colleagues will want to ask about the Dft's role in this, and if this really is an anomaly to an otherwise successful relationship, I'm sure they'll probe that. Is there any room for negotiation? We've got a scenario of do we've got a scenario of DCO, and now we're talking about the difference between a customer service inspector and a guard. Do you feel that there's room for negotiation? What would Chiltern have to do?
09:54
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
There's always room for negotiation, but we will try not to play that out in this room because that will make it more difficult if we start painting ourselves into corners here. We are genuinely working to try and find a resolution, and I think it's fair to say management side is as well. I don't get the impression that they're, you know, not trying to get to a position. So I think with a bit of luck and time, we'll find ourselves coming to a resolution sooner rather than later.
09:55
Steff Aquarone
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Steff Aquarone
If I could just ask both of you. I mean, it's it's it's noble of you to consider customer safety. It's very timely. Obviously, in the aftermath of tragic events in Europe. But we've heard that the the regulator sees DMO as a safe way of operating a train service. It's being used. I don't know what the stats are for the particular stretch of line in which it's already being used. Why? Why do you disagree and not not to relitigate the arguments you've already made, but why should it be that the unions know more about safety than the regulator?
09:57
Samantha Dixon
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Samantha Dixon
Sorry, we're not talking about less staff. We're talking about the role of the second person on the train, because I certainly echo what Alex said as a passenger, there is a reassurance of having a second person on the train who has, you know, who has my interests in heart at heart as a passenger, particularly if I'm vulnerable, particularly at night, you know, particularly if I was disabled. I don't think at this point we're talking about literally driver only. We're talking about, as far as I can understand , on this rail line. The what the second person does not whether or not there is a loss of staff because there's no second person.
And I'm, you know, I'm not making any comments about existing literal Dow services, but but just the, the different roles that we. My understanding is, is in discussion of the second person on the train.
And I'm, you know, I'm not making any comments about existing literal Dow services, but but just the, the different roles that we. My understanding is, is in discussion of the second person on the train.
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09:59
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
That's what's at the heart of this. Are we prepared to invest in having the best possible railway we can have for passengers, or are we going to talk about cost under the privatised model? The reason we ended up with driver only operation was in order to reduce staffing costs, to allow greater profits for the private companies. The profit motive isn't with us now. Now we're looking at improving service and trying to reduce public subsidy. This government has said so far that it recognises staff as an asset, rather than just a cost to be cut, which is a positive thing.
So what we're talking about right now is cost. We've already reached the point where we agreed that this train should be staffed, and it's just to what extent those staff are going to be able to serve the public. And it seems to me, for what is quite a small cost, we should probably make sure that those staff can do more than just look after people from a customer service point of view, but also should be there, ready to deal with the safety of the line in an emergency and to keep passengers safe for what's a relatively small cost.
So what we're talking about right now is cost. We've already reached the point where we agreed that this train should be staffed, and it's just to what extent those staff are going to be able to serve the public. And it seems to me, for what is quite a small cost, we should probably make sure that those staff can do more than just look after people from a customer service point of view, but also should be there, ready to deal with the safety of the line in an emergency and to keep passengers safe for what's a relatively small cost.
10:02
Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
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10:03
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Okay. Under . If we if we go back, we had more than ten years of disputes around the role of the guard that was driven by reports here aimed at cutting staffing costs, because at the time the current thinking was, or the way it was being described was how you get cheaper fares in Britain is by cutting all of the staff out of the network without considering the massive profit leakage. So that's what sparked the most recent round of disputes on driver only operation. And so here we are today. I think we're in a better place.
But as again this is really a question about cost. The argument isn't about running an entirely de staffed network. It's about what we do with the staff we've got.
But as again this is really a question about cost. The argument isn't about running an entirely de staffed network. It's about what we do with the staff we've got.
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10:07
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
No problem. I was just saying this is for ministers to take a judgement call . For what actions that they might want to take. As a civil servant, my role is to give them impartial advice, which is taken from across our industry partners, and for them to make a judgement call on any further action they might want to take. So essentially, that's what the process would follow.
10:07
Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
I mean, I think probably I hope the chair would agree. We have asked ministers about this in the past and perhaps not always necessarily received entirely clear or convincing answers, given that the Department for transport decided to appoint Chiltern as the operator for Oxford to Milton Keynes. To what extent was the risk of there being an argument about who opened the doors and taken into account when deciding that because you've got what? Sorry, it's not London. Midland now. Sorry. London North Western Railway, just down the road out of Bletchley, who do do driver and guard.
10:08
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So there are a multitude of risks that come have the potential to come into play on any major rail project. This is one of the ones that was obviously known to us, and the governance we set up around the project gave a clear escalation route. When those risks materialise. And subsequently, you know, that's what happened back in November last year when the announcement that the services weren't going to be in play that year. But again, the the decisions that were taken by ministers were based on advice provided to them about the operator. You know, the mode of operation on this services.
It's one that's established on the network. It's one that Chiltern runs in a majority of its services, and it's been proven to be safely operated over the last 30 years. In terms of some of the facts that would have fed into that.
It's one that's established on the network. It's one that Chiltern runs in a majority of its services, and it's been proven to be safely operated over the last 30 years. In terms of some of the facts that would have fed into that.
10:10
Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
Yes. Sorry. Perhaps my question wasn't clear. I don't necessarily need convincing. I've managed drivers both in a do and a non do environment, but it's more my question was more what what risk assessment was made of the potential of an industrial relations conflagration on this was how high up was that on risk registers that it could happen if Chiltern was chosen?
10:11
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So that was always one of the core risks at the top of the risk register. It's one of the ones that we monitored very closely. And when Chiltern were brought on board, one of the ones that we reviewed with them, as well as our other industry partners. So again, it's always been at the top of the list of things that could happen. It was making sure that we had the governance that enabled us to act quickly.
You know, we should that materialise.
You know, we should that materialise.
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10:13
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
So thank you chair. So to to Tony has been hearing about driver operation. Crimes committed on the network, including assault and harassment have risen substantially in the past year. Personal safety on board trains is a top concern for rail passengers wherever they're travelling. How do you square those facts? With the decision to propose driver only operation on the East West rail line?
10:13
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think you're absolutely right. We we share that concern as well around the whole aspect of anti-social behaviour, crime on the railway and violence against women and girls, which is a key priority for for the department in terms of our proposal now, which is driver controlled operations with the second person on board, there is very much a focus in that second role, the CSI grade around supporting some of those concerns. So visibility and reassurance for customers, and that's part of their job description. Very much so. Includes that as an operator, we take other measures as well to try and reduce crime on the railway.
We work very closely with the British Transport Police and regularly share intelligence and work with them very closely. We also have our own security teams who are on both fixed and mobile as well, to provide extra reassurance and and support on that as well, and included. That includes mobile officers where we can deploy based on where we see risk to crime, but also based on feedback from other customers or colleagues as well. So if we have known hotspot routes, we can deploy those as well to to good effect. I think, you know, there's a huge challenge around anti-social behaviour and crime on the railways.
And we actively engage Our ways. We actively engage with other government schemes, such as. safeguarding schemes, and we've invested in equipment and training for our colleagues as well, including body worn video is available to all frontline colleagues in terms of trade managers and station colleagues. So, you know, there's a whole suite. There's no I don't think silver bullet for for this. But certainly our proposal gives the reassurance that. visibility for colleagues, customers who will be using the new east West rail services between Oxford and .
We work very closely with the British Transport Police and regularly share intelligence and work with them very closely. We also have our own security teams who are on both fixed and mobile as well, to provide extra reassurance and and support on that as well, and included. That includes mobile officers where we can deploy based on where we see risk to crime, but also based on feedback from other customers or colleagues as well. So if we have known hotspot routes, we can deploy those as well to to good effect. I think, you know, there's a huge challenge around anti-social behaviour and crime on the railways.
And we actively engage Our ways. We actively engage with other government schemes, such as. safeguarding schemes, and we've invested in equipment and training for our colleagues as well, including body worn video is available to all frontline colleagues in terms of trade managers and station colleagues. So, you know, there's a whole suite. There's no I don't think silver bullet for for this. But certainly our proposal gives the reassurance that. visibility for colleagues, customers who will be using the new east West rail services between Oxford and .
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10:17
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Of publicly stated. I mean, generally, not necessarily just for East West Rail. Well. generally I actually don't have that information. So I can bring that back to you. But I think, as was mentioned before, East West Rail specifically, and its infrastructure was specified against being able to be operated under driver only operation.
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10:19
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The prospects for the resolution of the dispute? I'm not sure. It materially changes the challenges we have at the moment. As Eddie says, industrial relations is very good with Aslef and RMT and Chiltern, so this is quite. unusual and the difficult position we find ourselves in. Even before we came into public ownership, we would liaise regularly with the Department for transport. Clearly any final settlement we come to, an agreement has to go through.
appropriate approvals as well. So because we're operating under a national rail contract before, there's not a huge difference.
appropriate approvals as well. So because we're operating under a national rail contract before, there's not a huge difference.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Distinct perspective on, on these issues. I think certainly from Ashley's point of view, if you were to design and implement a new railway, you wouldn't do it like this. I mean, the use of east west rail I don't think has been beneficial to setting up this railway. We've opened a new line between Newcastle and Ashington in the same time period. That's up and fully running, conventionally crewed. trains and serving the people in the North east Northumberland. This has been bordering on dysfunctional, I think, for trying to run a railway. Discussions between between individual. parties when our reps have tried to get engaged with it in.
Aside from the train.
Aside from the train.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
How that was never considered and should have been part of the design process for a new build is beyond us, to be honest, when we're looking towards a green agenda. So. But we are in a situation as a trade union that we are in the laps of others around us because we're not in that position yet to go forward and, and have the the further discussions. But we do want to see the railway up and running, but we want to see it up and running in the right way. There's a lot of investment going into East West Rail.
And again, similar to a lot of things that happen on the railway in this country. From infrastructure point of view, we don't seem to do it in the same cost basis as we do elsewhere in Europe. You know, there's a whole host of things, I think, around East West Rail,
And again, similar to a lot of things that happen on the railway in this country. From infrastructure point of view, we don't seem to do it in the same cost basis as we do elsewhere in Europe. You know, there's a whole host of things, I think, around East West Rail,
10:25
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10:26
Daniel Francis
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Daniel Francis
That's right. Thank you. Are we still with Daniel? Come on. Yes. Second part. Yeah. I'll carry on with Dave. He's got the floor. So the government said that handing. operations into public ownership and creating GBR will lead to a more joined up railway. So what lessons do you think should be learned by GBR from this dispute? When .
10:27
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Introducing new services and. negotiating workforce arrangements? Yeah. Don't use a third party to do it. Do it directly through a train operator. I mean, I mean, one of the things that hasn't been mentioned so far today is initially the drivers depot was at Banbury. It was then closed at Banbury. Well, Banbury Depot is still there, but the drivers allotted to this work were moved then or those driver positions were moved, as has been said to Bletchley. And you would have thought that from an operational point of view, if the work was going to be at Bletchley, you would put it in the existing depot at Bletchley.
That gives you that cross cover and probably gives you efficiencies to the industry rather than setting things up in different silos. So I hope GBR going forward will see a bigger picture that will have a more broad look across not just small elements of new rail services, but actually look at it in the whole and use the existing depots, the existing, the existing regimes they've .
That gives you that cross cover and probably gives you efficiencies to the industry rather than setting things up in different silos. So I hope GBR going forward will see a bigger picture that will have a more broad look across not just small elements of new rail services, but actually look at it in the whole and use the existing depots, the existing, the existing regimes they've .
10:29
Speaker 5
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Speaker 5
Separate niche areas. You've got anything to add to that? Yeah, we're hopeful under GBL having that. strategic overview that's been lacking in the industry for quite a long time, moving towards a single employer and having an integrated collective bargaining framework should allow us to deal with issues of strategic importance like this sooner, quicker, before .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
For GBR. So is there anything from the department's perspective? Yeah, so I acknowledge that we should have had our operator on board earlier in this programme, and there's at least three core lessons that we've taken forward, learnt from this first phase as the first phase of the wider programme. So there'll be a number of further phases in delivering East West Rail as a major rail project. Those three core lessons, one is about carrying out that full systems thinking right at the early on with all of your delivery partners around the table, and that's been embedded.
And we'll probably hear a bit more about this in the second panel. This has been embedded in the way that East West Rail Company are designing and taking forward the railway, needing to bring the operator on board earlier. So we started working with Chiltern in in 23, and they were appointed in 2025. But, you know, that means that you don't have to revisit decisions that you've made earlier on or change any have any late changes in the in the design and then the need for a really strong delivery integration function, making sure all of the parts come together in the, the plans and the schedule.
And again, that's been addressed by East West Rail Company and the way that they've set up and in the role that they are taking forward as the .
And we'll probably hear a bit more about this in the second panel. This has been embedded in the way that East West Rail Company are designing and taking forward the railway, needing to bring the operator on board earlier. So we started working with Chiltern in in 23, and they were appointed in 2025. But, you know, that means that you don't have to revisit decisions that you've made earlier on or change any have any late changes in the in the design and then the need for a really strong delivery integration function, making sure all of the parts come together in the, the plans and the schedule.
And again, that's been addressed by East West Rail Company and the way that they've set up and in the role that they are taking forward as the .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Purpose delivery vehicle and integrator of the project. So I think I'd echo what colleagues to my right said, really obviously, early operator. involvement is really helpful. We've talked a lot today about method of operation, but also sometimes things look more mundane things as well. So things like station fitout and things like that, which aren't big sort of things in their own right. But coming late to the party just builds a little bit more sluggishness and delay into it.
So I think, you know, across the piece, early involvement from .
So I think, you know, across the piece, early involvement from .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Passenger services up and running on this section of the route sooner rather than later? So I think we know the what needs to happen. Obviously. resolution of the dispute then allows us to have the. conversation with Aslef. We finalised trading, trading agreements and things once we know what exactly what that final bit looks like. So we foresee, you know, you know, a fairly positive outlook in terms of the things in front of us now aren't huge obstacles. It's completion of training. It's some recruitment still needs to finish off things like CSI recruitment. And then there's some final.
validations and our approval. So there's nothing insurmountable. There's a lot of quite still quite a few moving parts with other partners to do as well. But we, you know, we are really positive once we've got that agreement, obviously not in a position yet to announce when that date may be, but I'm sure the the minister .
validations and our approval. So there's nothing insurmountable. There's a lot of quite still quite a few moving parts with other partners to do as well. But we, you know, we are really positive once we've got that agreement, obviously not in a position yet to announce when that date may be, but I'm sure the the minister .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Long it would take roughly after an agreement was made? It's really it's really hard to commit on that today because not all of it is within within Chilton's control. I think everyone collectively and I, I say this for everyone, you'll see today is really keen to get these up and running. You know, we. recognise the impact this is having on communities and the expectation people have of passenger services in on. So I think everyone's focused on that.
And when there's a date we .
And when there's a date we .
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Can all align to, you know, I'm sure the minister will announce it. And is there any work that can be done while we await that to deal with any of. I appreciate that you need to have an answer on exactly how how the train is going to be staffed. However, there can't be that many different. permutations of it. So are you .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The ability to staff with drivers and have the right skills. So we are well advanced in the driver training elements we can do before agreeing method of operation. So the new drivers who we recruited are all now qualified drivers, which takes about 18 months. They are learning the routes as they have to learn the sort of the specific geography. They're doing that and they're learning how to drive the one nine, six trains we've acquired as well, because that wasn't the trains they actually trained on originally. So we're not waiting for all those training pieces. What we're waiting for is once we've got an agreement, we then do the final piece of training once we've got everything in place.
So we're not we're not waiting for to start work on driver training.
So we're not we're not waiting for to start work on driver training.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Status of that as an issue? I don't know if you'd like to answer that one. Can I respond to that? So I think there were some minor things that were done at Wilmslow which have now been resolved. So there was some fit out, which Chiltern requested as well, but fairly minor stuff in terms of staff toilets and things like that. There was a more technical lease issue which my colleague this afternoon can expand on if need be, from Network Rail later this morning. While that has now been resolved, so the interim leases are now sitting for final signatures, I think Touchwood this week.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
So we're pretty much there on Winslow. Would you agree. It's a bit of a strange reason to site for the line not opening. I mean, Dave, you mentioned the Northumberland line where that opened with some of the stations opened, but the others still construction sites and that their stations that weren't yet finished weren't cited as a reason for not starting passenger services, particularly on a line that is being used for both freight and charters. So do you think that was a bit strange to site that reason?
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
Finished was part of that reason. The trains could have just run through it whilst that was being done is the point I was perhaps making. But maybe we've done that right. Last last question then. So I'd just like to just go in sequence for all of you and say and ask you what actions that you'll be taking, including engagement with other parties that are here to bring this dispute to an end and open passenger services on the line. And can you give your prediction for when that will happen? Because we've just had a night of predictions in the US midterms and they were very inaccurate, and maybe yours can be better.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Who'd like to start first? Thank you. Okay. Look, as far as we're concerned, as soon as the discussions are concluded between between. Chiltern and our RMT colleagues, we'll be sitting down to, to, to, to have similar. discussions on behalf of the drivers, what the time frame is around that? I don't know, because I've not been involved in the discussions, but we we've always participate fully and engaged wherever we .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Negotiate and we do the same. Do the same with Chiltern. I think it's the energy into the negotiation, the discussion. I think we're having positive discussions. I think everyone wants a resolution. This is not a dispute where, you know, people don't want a quick resolution. So I think it's making sure we've got the management focused. We'll keep liaising with the department as well to remain in lock step there. So so we can speed through any final sort of ratifications, etc., which as .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
This wrapped up in weeks. Thank you. That brings our first panel to an end. It was quite illuminating. I'd like to thank you all for your evidence and the time you spent. preparing for today. And if there's anything you feel you'd like to elaborate on, please do email us and to. suspend the meeting for a few minutes while our .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Morning, Christine Owen. I am the capital delivery director for Network Rail. Welcome. So in the previous panel we heard about the ongoing dispute, which has resulted in no passenger services running on the first stage of East West Rail for since the line opened. 744 days ago. So what impact has the dispute had on the delivery timetable, the costs and the planning. assumptions for subsequent. phases of east west rail of the East West Rail project? And I'm just.
realizing you probably don't all need to answer all of the questions given .
realizing you probably don't all need to answer all of the questions given .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
So who wants to kick off on that? I think that's probably one for me. Jack, the material impact of the delay in passenger services on the first phase actually is probably limited in terms of our planning of future phases. I don't underestimate the reputational damage that the delay has had for East West Rail as a programme, but in terms of actual material consequences on cost and schedule for future phases, there isn't any really. The key thing for us is learning lessons from all of those discussions you've just been having in the first, first stage of this panel, how do we do things differently to ensure that we're not in this situation?
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Revenues clearly now? Yes. Clearly. Yeah. That's a matter for Chiltern and the Department in terms of the loss of revenue today, in terms of the the the overall delivery costs of the programme, it doesn't have an impact. The big impact for us is East West Rail, East West Rail Limited responsible for delivering the programme, is the reputational damage it has, which is. significant and and also, I think, very important not to lose sight of the real life impact that this has on. communities along the line of route I have I have a lot of people in my team.
You know, we've recruited a lot of people in recent years. A lot of them have, you know, moved into the area, bought houses .
You know, we've recruited a lot of people in recent years. A lot of them have, you know, moved into the area, bought houses .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
No, no, I mean, Jodie might be able to get that for you at some say. Potentially I can come back on send to you something in writing around the revenue loss. I think what I would like to just say is that we've been very cost sorry, cost. conscious on this, the development of this railway and the delivery of the railway. I think when our Secretary of State came to Select committee back in June of this year, she talked about bearing down on the costs and. recognising that we weren't a you know, it wasn't driving revenue at the moment.
And what I would like to say is, you know, being cost conscious, we have delivered the. infrastructure for this part of the railway both on time and under budget, and the the overarching funding envelope for that first phase, which is 1.2 billion. I'm continuing to drive that.
And what I would like to say is, you know, being cost conscious, we have delivered the. infrastructure for this part of the railway both on time and under budget, and the the overarching funding envelope for that first phase, which is 1.2 billion. I'm continuing to drive that.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Subsequent. phases of the project. I think just coming in on this, going back to the lessons learned, I actually think I would say it's had a positive. impact on the planning that we're making and the lessons that we've learned, and actually how we're setting the project up for success. So the whole point about, you know, learning from this first phase is that you can enhance the delivery of the future phases. And that's one of the reasons why you split up these major. projects so that you can, you know, roll over that learning and make sure that you're addressing it in the future phases.
So I would. expect all of the things that we've experienced on this first phase to be addressed .
So I would. expect all of the things that we've experienced on this first phase to be addressed .
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Speaker 11
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Speaker 11
And Christian, has it had an impact on Network Rail? So as Jenny made reference to, we delivered the infrastructure on time and ahead of budget, which we're really proud of. Obviously, we are equally disappointed that we haven't got passenger services on the railway. We do have a well established maintenance and operations team that are looking after railway, keeping it in good condition, and we have got regular freight services on the line. We do have charter services on the line and as we speak we have got a very intense driver training programme which is almost simulating an hourly service on the line.
So we are we are comfortable that we are ready to go and our infrastructure is .
So we are we are comfortable that we are ready to go and our infrastructure is .
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Scott Arthur
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Scott Arthur
And you've got the next question anyway, so thanks for that, Judy. Hopefully the Secretary of State is bearing down on the dispute as much as she is bearing down on costs. But I guess it's quite disheartening. I don't know how you feel sitting there. People the other side are saying, well, you've done our bit of the job. It's not our fault, but it's really I think the taxpayer wants all five of you here to be working together to resolve this. So David, come along. I'm not being critical. David's saying, well, I the lost revenues , revenue.
That's not my problem. It's someone else's, but just people. I guess taxpayers want this to be a team effort. Can I ask the the lost revenue in the costs of the dispute? I know you can't say you can't put a number out just now, but in terms of the scale, how does it. compare to the cost of actually just settling the dispute? And given the trade unions exactly what they want, I think they said it would cost. £150,000 a year. Surely the lost revenue must far, far exceed that. And David's also talked about the impact on communities.
That's a that's a wellbeing impact on all the rest of it. But it's also an economic impact. So what's the quantum of that, the impact of the dispute in terms of the impact on communities and also the loss in .
That's not my problem. It's someone else's, but just people. I guess taxpayers want this to be a team effort. Can I ask the the lost revenue in the costs of the dispute? I know you can't say you can't put a number out just now, but in terms of the scale, how does it. compare to the cost of actually just settling the dispute? And given the trade unions exactly what they want, I think they said it would cost. £150,000 a year. Surely the lost revenue must far, far exceed that. And David's also talked about the impact on communities.
That's a that's a wellbeing impact on all the rest of it. But it's also an economic impact. So what's the quantum of that, the impact of the dispute in terms of the impact on communities and also the loss in .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Advice from you, Georgie. I'm sure. So you must have these numbers. So I don't have the I don't have numbers in front of me. But, you know, this isn't just about, you know, a cost over here. This is about the operating model that we've based the. infrastructure and the plans on. So when you make those changes, it has. consequences which would require further consideration and judgment by our ministers, you know, so it's not as simple as just make this happen and it will work tomorrow. As a system. It's more complex than that. I can look into what I can give you and provide you with some , some following.
information by .
information by .
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Scott Arthur
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Scott Arthur
If that will give you a bit more and help in understanding that intersection. Thank you, thank you, thank you on the consultation on on the project going forward. Sorry, you the projects move from a connection stage to a being delivered in phases. So what does this mean? Connection model sorry, a connection model to be delivered in phases. What was the difference there? And and .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Than that and probably one that's best for Ben to to answer. Yeah. So as David said, to some extent it's just terminology. But what has happened in moving from the connection stages to key outputs is we've done two things. Firstly, we had to react to the fact that the. universal attraction that's going to be built at. Stewartby had had was.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Opportunity to raise revenue? So it's a big all of the above. Yeah, it's a big investment in in the country. It's a big investment. The east west rail route runs right alongside it. It's absolutely the right thing that we do to. provide a transport link to that, along with also transport link on the Midland Main line as well. So we had to we had to react to that. The key output approach is partly to do that. The other thing that the key outputs have done is it's allowed us to make sure that we are. delivering benefits to.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
So. It's a good question. But what we are doing now is we are making sure that the schedule that we are now working to is delivering as many benefits as early as possible. And so the key output stages that we have. deliver four trains an hour to Stewartby station earlier than you would have had under the .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
The connection stage approach. It's about bringing forward as many benefits as we can. It's not the intent, and that the original approach of opening this in three phases. We've not. It's not revolution. What we've done. We've. Now we've just broken it down into slightly more phases. In part, that's learning lessons from previous projects that says, actually, the more that you can break down the delivery of the project and introduce services.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
The more that de-risks the project. So there's just a sort of good practice. Try and break it down into bite sized chunks. There was also a very clear steer clear ask from government in early 25, when it was clear that universal was going to go ahead, was, how can you adapt that opening schedule to get a service to the park, as much service into the park as quickly as possible? And alongside that, what else can you do as part of the overall economic growth agenda? How can you bring forward benefits in Cambridge, in Bedford? How can you sequence delivery of the railway to ensure that we get as much of the benefit as we can as soon as possible?
So all of those elements came together to, to drive not a not it's not a massive change to the. It was always intended to open it in phases. We've just broken it down into slightly more phases with the intent of bringing forward benefits. And in particular, as Ben says, of trying to get a service as much of a service to the park as soon as we can, because it's huge, right? The park is going to be the UK's biggest tourist attraction, and it's literally a 100m from one of our stations. So we were going to have to .
So all of those elements came together to, to drive not a not it's not a massive change to the. It was always intended to open it in phases. We've just broken it down into slightly more phases with the intent of bringing forward benefits. And in particular, as Ben says, of trying to get a service as much of a service to the park as soon as we can, because it's huge, right? The park is going to be the UK's biggest tourist attraction, and it's literally a 100m from one of our stations. So we were going to have to .
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Scott Arthur
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Scott Arthur
Adapt the design of the station, the design of the railway, to cater for that. I don't want to reopen the debate, but it's interesting that there's a focus on delivering that economic benefit as early as possible, but interesting to see how how changing your plans, what the benefit of that is compared to .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
The impact of the dispute. Yeah. So let's not reopen that. If I if I may, Doctor Parker, doctor Arthur, the for us just just to just to sort of close out. We've talked a bit in this session already about learning lessons from the position that we're in on phase one. And no one is happy with the position that we're in on phase one. The key thing for us, for Rosemary, Jodie, myself, Ben, is how do we make sure when we get to these future phases that we're not in the same position? And the two key lessons I think that we've taken away are firstly, about clarity of accountability.
You heard some of the witnesses in the previous session referring to the fact that that was not as clear as it should have been. So for the first phase of the railway, Oxford to to Bletchley, where we haven't got services running, the. accountabilities were split between. And there's a lot of history around that, between what the department was responsible for, what East West Rail was responsible for. So for the first phase, East West Rail had responsibility for the. infrastructure but not the introduction of the services. Going forward. It is absolutely clear now that East West Rail Limited holds.
accountability for the whole system. So for the future phases, it's my job. It's Ben's job to make sure we don't control everything. We don't have direct control everything, but we are the conductor of the orchestra. Our job is to make sure that when we get to these future phases, we haven't just delivered the infrastructure. Important though, that is, we have all those other elements that are necessary to bring passenger. services into operation, that they are all in place as well. So that's the first lesson, clarity of accountability. The second, and again, there was reference to this in the previous session, is getting ahead of the issues early.
So that's why one of the first things I did when I came in as chief exec just over two years ago was bring Ben in someone with a huge amount of rail operations. experience so that the sort of issues that have delayed us now on the first phase, we're starting to tackle them now several years in advance. You heard the union rep saying, you know, we didn't get into consultation on these issues until relatively late in the day. You need to be one of the big lessons from , from, from big rail projects is it's there's a there's a risk of focusing on the.
infrastructure in the early days. You need to focus on the whole system from the get go. And that's what we're trying to do to ensure that there is no repeat of .
You heard some of the witnesses in the previous session referring to the fact that that was not as clear as it should have been. So for the first phase of the railway, Oxford to to Bletchley, where we haven't got services running, the. accountabilities were split between. And there's a lot of history around that, between what the department was responsible for, what East West Rail was responsible for. So for the first phase, East West Rail had responsibility for the. infrastructure but not the introduction of the services. Going forward. It is absolutely clear now that East West Rail Limited holds.
accountability for the whole system. So for the future phases, it's my job. It's Ben's job to make sure we don't control everything. We don't have direct control everything, but we are the conductor of the orchestra. Our job is to make sure that when we get to these future phases, we haven't just delivered the infrastructure. Important though, that is, we have all those other elements that are necessary to bring passenger. services into operation, that they are all in place as well. So that's the first lesson, clarity of accountability. The second, and again, there was reference to this in the previous session, is getting ahead of the issues early.
So that's why one of the first things I did when I came in as chief exec just over two years ago was bring Ben in someone with a huge amount of rail operations. experience so that the sort of issues that have delayed us now on the first phase, we're starting to tackle them now several years in advance. You heard the union rep saying, you know, we didn't get into consultation on these issues until relatively late in the day. You need to be one of the big lessons from , from, from big rail projects is it's there's a there's a risk of focusing on the.
infrastructure in the early days. You need to focus on the whole system from the get go. And that's what we're trying to do to ensure that there is no repeat of .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Is that a possibility? Is there a business case there? I can't answer the question on business case. There's certainly Ben might want to comment. There's nothing to. preclude running. services beyond Oxford and Cambridge. This will be part of the. integrated rail. network by the time it's delivered. GBR will be fully up and running. GBR will be that single controlling mind. It's not a self-contained railway that can only run from Oxford to Cambridge. You could run from Penzance to Ipswich if you chose, but that's an operational choice that would be made by GBR as it plans the overall network.
So there's nothing we're doing that precludes .
So there's nothing we're doing that precludes .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Running. services beyond. Ben, do you want to come in? Absolutely. It's part of the network. It's connected in many places with the the wider network. In terms of freight. For example, freight will use east west rail to connect. ports and and depots across the network. So that's already happening. We are speaking with the.
operators that operate at either end of the line as well. We have good conversations with Greater Anglia, with.
operators that operate at either end of the line as well. We have good conversations with Greater Anglia, with.
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
That average of one per hours over a day. So those trains just could be overnight. Well, we will provide the. capacity actually for freight companies. They can then choose whether they would like to use that depending on the demand that they're trying to meet, the contracts that they have, etc.. So but the capacity is there. It's also worth saying that whilst we're providing capacity for one freight train an hour along the line of route, there are other.
investments that would be required elsewhere on the network really to
investments that would be required elsewhere on the network really to
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Those numbers. Yeah. Absolutely. Those. Yeah. Okay. So there is a strategy. I think the reason why perhaps the, the, the wording is, as you've described it is because the railway that we will upgrade and build has capacity for an hourly. service along the line of route. Whether that is taken up or not does depend on some of these other investments.
And I think some of the wording that you've read out there. reflects the.
And I think some of the wording that you've read out there. reflects the.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
We are providing capacity for a freight train every hour along the line of route. If I may, just to build on the strategy is driven partly by constraints on existing network. But but largely by what are the demand flows? So the the providing capacity for a train an hour on that section between Oxford and Bletchley. There's. We can do that at. Have done that already, but it also reflects the demand flow, which is. If you think about the the geography of the country is actually. Southampton coming through up to Oxford using that line from Oxford to Bletchley to join the West Coast main line and then head north to the West Midlands into Trafford.
That's the flow, the logical flow freight flow from the other side of the country would be from the East coast ports, Felixstowe in.
That's the flow, the logical flow freight flow from the other side of the country would be from the East coast ports, Felixstowe in.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Coming through Cambridge, joining our infrastructure. And then, if you like, turning right onto the West Coast main line at Milton Keynes. The the two problems there, these are the constraints that Ben talks about, is there are there are. bottlenecks before you get to Cambridge that that would have to be. The industry would have to invest significant amounts of money to invest in the bottlenecks there. And then if you if you like, there is no right turn from our infrastructure onto the West Coast main Line to head north at Bletchley. That would also be a very significant piece of infrastructure work.
So I completely take that. If you look at the numbers cold, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it. reflects both the demand.
So I completely take that. If you look at the numbers cold, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it. reflects both the demand.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Need to have that vision and. prioritisation in place. I mean, am I right in saying saying that's about. investment in hardware? Whereas that last set of. questions focused on things like train paths in among passengers and so on. Infrastructure off logistics, infrastructure just beside the line and that sort of thing. Which is why a freight.
strategy would I be right in saying a freight strategy is somewhat different to in a rail investment strategy?
strategy would I be right in saying a freight strategy is somewhat different to in a rail investment strategy?
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Maybe I'm missing something. I think is a is a is a whole, you know, one of the great. advantages of, of standing up GBR is actually to be able to think about the system, to be able to think about the policy intent, the ambition that we have for delivering outcomes for passengers and for freight and the.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
Which we've discussed in some detail, some limited service using the existing infrastructure Oxford to Bedford 2025 and the whole thing to Cambridge in 2028. I think now East West Rail is saying mid to late. 2030s for the Cambridge bit. I must admit I'm not quite clear what the current Bedford Bletchley thing is. Maybe you can tell me how confident are you that the current key timescales that you're working to are now .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So for the bulk of the work that we have to deliver, we can't actually get. started until late 2029. So whatever the history before the reality we're in, and that takes you into a whole debate about how long it takes to get planning consent for big infrastructure, which is probably a different a different committee to look at that. So the reality we're in at the moment is the earliest that we're going to start our main works, get really get going on on the bulk of the.
project will be sometime in.
project will be sometime in.
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11:22
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
At this stage, we are still at a relatively high level of design as we head into the DCO. One of the things that we have to do over the course of the next 12 months to inform government's. decisions about the project, about whether government wants to commit to the funding of this project. One of the things me and my team need to do over the next year is develop our a very clear understanding of what the likely cost envelope and delivery schedule is. So at the moment, our best estimate is that we will complete the project in mid to late 2030s.
That's where we are at the moment. But I would say as, as as with cost envelope and schedule, we're I don't want to overstate it would be wrong of me to say, yes, I'm absolutely confident because we're just too early in the process for that. That's our best understanding of where we are. That's the timescales we're trying to meet. But what I'm not going to do, as we work through the detail of what the cost and schedule will look like and present that to government when we get to O B, C next year. You know, my job is to give the most accurate view of what we think that will be.
I mean, that is clearly one of the key lessons from from HS2 and other projects at this stage. Don't succumb to. optimism bias, don't try and meet artificial deadlines or artificial cost envelopes. We will spend the time between now and DCO.
That's where we are at the moment. But I would say as, as as with cost envelope and schedule, we're I don't want to overstate it would be wrong of me to say, yes, I'm absolutely confident because we're just too early in the process for that. That's our best understanding of where we are. That's the timescales we're trying to meet. But what I'm not going to do, as we work through the detail of what the cost and schedule will look like and present that to government when we get to O B, C next year. You know, my job is to give the most accurate view of what we think that will be.
I mean, that is clearly one of the key lessons from from HS2 and other projects at this stage. Don't succumb to. optimism bias, don't try and meet artificial deadlines or artificial cost envelopes. We will spend the time between now and DCO.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
At the moment, our best estimate is it's mid to late 2030s. Yeah, I mean, I understand your point about looking to the future and not dwelling in the past, but those those timescales I mentioned, that is something that East West Rail did a very extensive non-statutory. consultation about in 2019 and 2020. So I think that's partly why I'm asking. And lots of other people are asking what's going to be different this time. But you've you've given your view on that. Okay. And I was also going to ask you if you could say which stage each section of the project has reached.
So you've mentioned DCO submission this time next year. Is business case.
So you've mentioned DCO submission this time next year. Is business case.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So that's why you gave a month. We'll go for a month. That's a point to you. Right after the season, we're aiming to be around about June or July of next year. We will be presenting to government our OBC, our outline business case and our draft DCO submission. And that's really a key decision point for the government. We use the jargon. It's review point two. We went through a review .12 months ago. Review point two in roundabout , June, July next year. Two big decisions for government is the OBC that we will present. And we're going to be in front of government saying we think we're good to go with our DCO submission and we're planning.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
Planning that would be in sort of late 2028. Final question for you, Mr. Hughes. I read a book over the summer where you were quoted, Sir Jonathan Simcox, The Delivery gap, and you said to him, in relation to your time as chair of the Crossrail sponsor board, quote, I put my hand up to the failure of the assurance. I need to say that up front. I'm on the list of the guilty. So you've said a little bit about what you think can be learned from previous projects. What else would you say you take from that time, and maybe HS2, as to how East West Rail .
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11:22
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Different and how we can learn positively from those projects? Oh god, I mean, I could talk for hours on that. I'll be so I think, relevant to where we are as a project now. I think the key lesson that my team hear me banging on about all the time is getting making the right judgment about that cost envelope and schedule. And it's something that I talked with Mark Wilde, chief executive of HS2 a lot, and he and I worked on Crossrail together. You know, we want to we want to set an. ambitious cost envelope and an ambitious schedule.
We want to drive the project hard so we get the most efficient delivery and we can realise benefits as quickly as possible. But at the same time we have to guard against.
We want to drive the project hard so we get the most efficient delivery and we can realise benefits as quickly as possible. But at the same time we have to guard against.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Which so many projects have fallen prey to. What I do not want to be guilty of is coming to government next year with two rosier picture on cost and schedule. To secure the funding. You know what we need to do, and this is a lesson from HS2 is flush out now our best possible view of that cost and schedule to inform the government's decision about whether it wants to commit to this scheme.
Flush that out now. Not after the event, not after you've let your main works contracts flush out. Now your .
Flush that out now. Not after the event, not after you've let your main works contracts flush out. Now your .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Participating is. examining that. application route wide sense. Yes. I mean, we're in Buckinghamshire this morning. We were in Bedfordshire last night. We're in Lidlington tomorrow. So actually one of the I think one of the it's quite an important point for us actually. So, so the Chancellor made the point, I think, in a speech about, you know, the fact that we'd had four consultations, I think look, if we'd. The Planning and Infrastructure Act has changed that process. If the Planning and Infrastructure Act had been on the statute book several years ago, our whole approach to this would have been different.
By the time the Planning and Infrastructure Act came onto the statute book last December, and it does make some significant. changes to the.
By the time the Planning and Infrastructure Act came onto the statute book last December, and it does make some significant. changes to the.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
For the DCO. We'd already done three route wide consultations, and we were just gearing up to go out with our fourth. So the Planning and Infrastructure Act will change how this is done in the future. I would two points. I think the consultations that we've done have been hugely. valuable in refining our design. You know, the feedback we get from the public has made has resulted in some quite significant changes to our design. That would be the first point. And the second. I do think it's really important that because I think there's a danger that people think the Planning and Infrastructure Act changes mean we're not going to consult anymore.
Or if, when I answer your question saying we've not got any more planned consultations, is that we're we're not talking to the public. We're actually I actually think what the Planning and Infrastructure Act. enables is for us to have much better and much more iterative. engagement like we're having this week with communities on the issues that matter to them. The thing about the route wide. consultations is they are big set piece events, and they put before you even get out the door, they put six months on the programme doing a three month route wide.
Or if, when I answer your question saying we've not got any more planned consultations, is that we're we're not talking to the public. We're actually I actually think what the Planning and Infrastructure Act. enables is for us to have much better and much more iterative. engagement like we're having this week with communities on the issues that matter to them. The thing about the route wide. consultations is they are big set piece events, and they put before you even get out the door, they put six months on the programme doing a three month route wide.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Put 6 to 9 months into your programme. So I think the big win from the Planning and Infrastructure Act going forward is it enables you to engage in a much more iterative way with. communities on the things that matter to them. So, for example, Bicester, you know, not it's not true to say the only thing they want to talk about, but the main thing they want to talk about is what we're doing with our level crossing. They're not really interested in what we're doing in Cambridge East. They don't, you know, so so moving away from these route wide.
consultations opens up the opportunity for us to engage,
consultations opens up the opportunity for us to engage,
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
For example, in Cambridge East ahead of we're not we're not, we're not we don't have plans to do so at the moment. I think it's I think it's not I think I'm right in saying it's not unusual in a DCO process to have to have targeted consultations. If there are changes emerge, we've got another year to go before we submit the DCO application. We're not. anticipating significant changes to the scope of the scheme at this stage. We're certainly not anticipating running running any route wide consultations. It is possible that we need to do some targeted.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Legislation now is in place? The Planning and Infrastructure Act, the biggest impact of it is on that. pre-application process. So it has enabled us to move more. Believe it or not, it has actually enabled us. It will enable us to get to the point of DCO. submission this time next year, more quickly than would otherwise have been the case. It has limited impact on what happens then when you get into the examination stage. And I know that's something that government more broadly is now, is now looking at, because I think it comes back to Mr.
Glover's point, really about, you know, if you step back from it, East West Rail was initiated in.
Glover's point, really about, you know, if you step back from it, East West Rail was initiated in.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
20, 30. That's 12, 13 years. And there's all sorts of reasons for that, but it's not untypical. Lower Thames Crossing sort of similar time scale. So it's part of that much bigger debate, I think, isn't it, about how long it takes to get major. infrastructure spades in the ground. So we're part of that debate. The Planning Infrastructure Act is definitely helped the benefit from it.
We've we've mainly captured already in the. pre-application phase. It doesn't actually change the bar very much in .
We've we've mainly captured already in the. pre-application phase. It doesn't actually change the bar very much in .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Okay. Anyone else want to say anything? The only thing I would just add to that is on this project, we've been engaged on the Planning and Infrastructure Act and the opportunities that afforded very early on, and we've worked really closely and set up some governance across Whitehall to make sure that we're taking on board, you know, utilising those opportunities wherever possible. And David's talked about a number of those. There's always more to do and more to. consider and bring it, you know. utilising those opportunities for East West Rail also gives us the opportunity to identify and demonstrate other opportunities.
We can we can draw out of that and leave more of a legacy from this .
We can we can draw out of that and leave more of a legacy from this .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Rail projects across the region? Well, the East West Rail. project was set up by ourselves in. 2015 under an alliance with some brilliant delivery partners. So we've had a standalone alliance team in existence for nearly 11 years, and they have worked in full collaboration with East West Rail Company, with our operators, with the Department for transport, but also on discharging the Transport Works Act order and engaging with with communities through the delivery of the programme. Given we've had a standalone alliance to deliver this, we have had a very lean team to manage this alliance. We have equivalent of ten full time equivalent staff managing the alliance right now.
So it's a very cost effective way for us to deliver our infrastructure projects. This project itself, whilst we are, you know, with all our colleagues, very disappointed. We haven't got passenger services running right now. If you look at how this was delivered using a modern form of NEC.
So it's a very cost effective way for us to deliver our infrastructure projects. This project itself, whilst we are, you know, with all our colleagues, very disappointed. We haven't got passenger services running right now. If you look at how this was delivered using a modern form of NEC.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
And we've handed that back to the Department for reinvestment back in future stages of of of of East West rail. And we've also been able to offset during the construction period, which was very challenging through Covid 19. We started our construction phases at the back end of 2019 into 2020. We managed to offset nearly. £300 million worth of headwinds that kind of impacted the project. So from a delivery front, we are really proud about what we've been able to learn through the life of this project. And if you look at our future investment projects that we're delivering across, certainly our big programmes like the Midlands Rail Hub, the West Coast Main Line, modernisation, TransPennine route upgrade, there are phenomenal amount of good lessons that we are taking, but also bringing into the future delivery.
The one big lesson for us collectively as an industry is, and and you made the point earlier, is that we need to act and operate as an industry. It can't be that one part of the industry delivers its bit and the other parts of the industry don't. We are a railway and we need to deliver outcomes. And the journey the rail investment's been on over the course of the last ten years, has been that shift from being infrastructure. focused to being very much outcome focused. Now the reality is delivering the East West rail line will deliver phenomenal transportation outcomes.
But let's let's not forget that the outcomes go far beyond.
The one big lesson for us collectively as an industry is, and and you made the point earlier, is that we need to act and operate as an industry. It can't be that one part of the industry delivers its bit and the other parts of the industry don't. We are a railway and we need to deliver outcomes. And the journey the rail investment's been on over the course of the last ten years, has been that shift from being infrastructure. focused to being very much outcome focused. Now the reality is delivering the East West rail line will deliver phenomenal transportation outcomes.
But let's let's not forget that the outcomes go far beyond.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Thank you. Scott. You ought to come in, Christian. Of course, the ten FTE lean team would sound a lot better if if the project was running better, wouldn't it. Yeah. So you talked about how you've learned valuable lessons from the project. So do you think the problems the project's been beset with were inevitable then, or do you think if Network Rail had been delivering .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Well, let's I'll just replay the point. I've just said we as an industry are accountable. Yeah, we we work in partnership with, you know, with our partners over in East West Rail Company, we are an arm's length body of the Department for transport. And the reality of the lesson for this is that whilst we were brilliant at specifying the.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Right, we could crack on and build that. We know how to do that. What we got wrong at the start of this programme was we didn't specify the operation, the end outcome, how the rail system was going to come together. The railway system is very, very complicated. It's not just about kind of the hard infrastructure, you know, the soft infrastructure about how operations, maintenance. But you heard it this morning, you know, how .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Saying that these problems would have happened if Network Rail had delivered projects. I think, as I said, the journey that the industry has been on over the last five, ten years has been flipping our investment approach from. infrastructure very much into outcomes. And, you know, we've learned those lessons on on Network Rail delivered projects as well as projects delivered by the people. I think the reality is it's a it's a learning approach. We're very much focused on the end user, the end outcome, the passenger. Our investment projects were very much focused on the infrastructure side .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
All our rail investment schemes. Well, just I think it comes back to that key lesson from the first phase is, and it's absolutely at the heart of the thinking behind GBR, and it's at the heart of the thinking about how we set up for future. delivery of future delivery of future phases of east west rail is don't think about the railway in a fragmented way. Infrastructure trains, rolling stock people. It's a whole system. You have to manage it as a whole system, and it doesn't really matter who was in charge. In previous phases, the. structure was fragmented.
GBR the whole thinking behind GBR is to try and put that right, and I think it will. And in the meantime, in terms of how we're planning for future phases of east west rail, we're .
GBR the whole thinking behind GBR is to try and put that right, and I think it will. And in the meantime, in terms of how we're planning for future phases of east west rail, we're .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Was is with us. I know, Ben, you're so on message. David, I like this. You're so well, it's because I believe it. I mean, honestly, I it's not being on message. I just look my background is rail delivery in London Underground, which is a vertically. integrated rail system. And I've always looked at the. For me, GBR is blindingly obvious.
You know, how can you run the railway in any other way than .
You know, how can you run the railway in any other way than .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
As a whole system? So I don't know anything. So I agree with what's been said. A lot of projects that have failed to deliver their benefits in the future at the end of the project are because they have not had. alignment between a number of things that need to be perfectly aligned. At the end of the programme, you need to have. infrastructure that matches the rolling stock, that matches the. competence and the training of the staff that you've recruited that match the. authorization you get from the regulator and a number of other things. When any of those.
things are out of line with the others, you end up failing to deliver your benefits. Now, I think one of the. mistakes that we have repeatedly made is that some of those things which are about. operating the railway, rather than building the.
things are out of line with the others, you end up failing to deliver your benefits. Now, I think one of the. mistakes that we have repeatedly made is that some of those things which are about. operating the railway, rather than building the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Are seen as things that you can consider towards the end of the process. And they are not. You have to be thinking about them earlier. Now, I think what has made that. worse is that we have, during the period that the railway has been privatised, we've tended to equate the word. operations with the. appointment of a train operator through its.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And actually operating a railway is not just about appointment of a train operator through a franchise. It's about speaking to operators that know how this railway is going to be built, and making sure that their voice is heard early enough in the process that people can take it into account. Now, my job since I arrived about 15 months or so ago, is to make.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That that. collective voice of. operators is being heard in the programme early enough that the issues can be. identified and people can make choices about how to avoid problems as we go forward. So I have got together the various train operators that are involved in this. There are a number of them because it's not just Chiltern, it's Great Western, it's West Midlands, it's Greater Anglia, it's GTR, we're speaking to them already. We get them together. We talk to the Network Rail operating people as well, so that we have a common plan and we can flag to the project where there are things that need to be.
considered early. That, I think, is what will make it more. likely that the key outputs that .
considered early. That, I think, is what will make it more. likely that the key outputs that .
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Of the project's value for money? I think that's probably one from me to pick up. So it it's a piece of work that we are taking forward with East West Rail Co in preparation for the outline business case, which, as David says, will be. available early next year as part of the decision making ahead of DCO submission. I think it's fair to recognise that actually East West Rail is the.
backbone of a the government's growth. strategy for the Oxford to Cambridge corridor. It's the. enabler for, you know, potentially as many as.
backbone of a the government's growth. strategy for the Oxford to Cambridge corridor. It's the. enabler for, you know, potentially as many as.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Sorry, 10,000 houses, no. 100,000 houses. You know, it's going to be the feeder for potentially two new. towns that are in in MH. Clg's new towns strategy. It's feeding the biggest visitor attraction in Europe. And we estimate that it could deliver as much as. £6.7 billion of GVA to the local. economy by 2050. You know, we need to.
recognise those strategic benefits and the impact that that East West rail can have on, on.
recognise those strategic benefits and the impact that that East West rail can have on, on.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
And value that the scheme adds , that we capture that in the business case, but also that we work across, you know, as SRO for the subsequent parts of the schemes that that we set up, both the governance arrangements and the partnering arrangements across. Whitehall to ensure that the benefits that are possible from from the enabler that that East West rail is, are, are fully utilised through, through delivery and the incremental investment that will be.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Economic case. I'll let David, just to build really on. I agree with all that, Rosemary said. I'm often asked, are you confident in the business case for East West Rail? And I am wholly confident I'm on message on this as well, because I believe I'm wholly confident in the business case for East West Rail and. But the business case comprises a number of elements and the key element of the business case for East West Rail is the strategic case, which has been backed by successive governments, including this one. You know, the railway makes a reality of the Oxford-cambridge corridor, and growth in the Oxford-cambridge corridor is critical to the future prosperity of the UK.
That's the strategic case about housing development at large scale. Hundreds of thousands of houses.
That's the strategic case about housing development at large scale. Hundreds of thousands of houses.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Jobs in the kinds of industries that are going to be critical to the UK's future prosperity. So it's a really strong strategic case. People confuse business case with benefit cost ratios and the the intricacies of the transport appraisal guidance, a personal view. I think that the business case methodology that drives the BCR is really poor at capturing the. benefits of schemes like East West Rail that are not a typical. It's not a it's not a railway transport project. It's an economic growth project. I sometimes say it's a housing project with a railway attached. The methodology is really poor at capturing that.
That's not unusual for this sort of project. So if you look at the borders railway, I think there's no one would say that is anything other than an outstanding success. It had a really poor BCR when it was committed to by government. So when when I'm asked about the business case, we've got a really strong business case. I'm completely it's compelling. It's about making a reality of that Oxford-cambridge corridor. BCR, I don't expect will be very good. So the report of the Nao before my time doesn't surprise me. Don't think on the standard methodology will score well on BCR.
That's not unusual for this sort of project. So if you look at the borders railway, I think there's no one would say that is anything other than an outstanding success. It had a really poor BCR when it was committed to by government. So when when I'm asked about the business case, we've got a really strong business case. I'm completely it's compelling. It's about making a reality of that Oxford-cambridge corridor. BCR, I don't expect will be very good. So the report of the Nao before my time doesn't surprise me. Don't think on the standard methodology will score well on BCR.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Same based on the BCR. So I think there are two elements for me about this. There's there's absolutely making sure that we can. quantify all of the benefits we get. We we can, as part of the benefit cost ratio for the scheme. And then it's important that we. recognise the wider. strategic case and. opportunity that the.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Beyond what is. quantifiable in a BCR, when providing advice to ministers on which they can take a decision on whether this is the best use of public funds for for delivering, you know, delivering infrastructure that can enable growth. And for me, as as SRO working with David, it's really important that we do set out both that, that narrow transport case well and well quantified in economic.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
But also that we. Take place based approach to this and are able to exploit the opportunity we have to demonstrate the value that this project. provides to the, the growth corridor and to the wider, wider economy, which. isn't typically. captured well in a transport economic appraisal on. But but the decision will be taken in the round on the basis of of all of .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And that's in. 2021 prices. So that that is the the current estimate that we have in the public domain, as I explained in my response to Mr. Glover earlier, what we are doing now over the next 6 to 9 months, as we head to that. OBC submission to government in the summer of next year, is working out our revised view of the schedule and the cost envelope that's going to be required to deliver the scope of the railway that we now have. And the scope has changed. significantly since. 2024 to a large extent driven by universal.
So we're delivering more benefits, longer trains, more frequent services to make sure we can. accommodate the additional demand from universal, which is a good thing. Revenue, etc. having the UK's biggest tourist attraction on your doorstep is a good thing, but we have had to make changes. So what we're doing at the moment, we've now essentially, as I said to Alex a bit earlier, we've pretty much locked down the scope. Now we think to take into the DCO, we need to cost that design. And this is, as I said earlier, this, you know, about making the best possible.
judgment about what our cost envelope is going to be to deliver the scope that we've now agreed with the department that's going to take us through until that review point two moment in June, July next year, that's when we'll be setting out a revised cost cost envelope. But, you know, the design has changed. And of course, the previous estimate is in .
So we're delivering more benefits, longer trains, more frequent services to make sure we can. accommodate the additional demand from universal, which is a good thing. Revenue, etc. having the UK's biggest tourist attraction on your doorstep is a good thing, but we have had to make changes. So what we're doing at the moment, we've now essentially, as I said to Alex a bit earlier, we've pretty much locked down the scope. Now we think to take into the DCO, we need to cost that design. And this is, as I said earlier, this, you know, about making the best possible.
judgment about what our cost envelope is going to be to deliver the scope that we've now agreed with the department that's going to take us through until that review point two moment in June, July next year, that's when we'll be setting out a revised cost cost envelope. But, you know, the design has changed. And of course, the previous estimate is in .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
But can you tell us how much has been spent today? No I'm not, I can't and I wouldn't want to because I think to sort of do a running commentary on what I might be thinking at any one point in time isn't the right way to do this. We've we've committed to government. I've committed to government that we will set out our best view. All the reasons I said earlier, you know, do that now before the point of commitment. Get the judgment right about being ambitious, about efficiency. But don't, don't don't lose a grip on reality.
Don't, don't, don't succumb to optimism bias. These are really difficult judgments that I need to make with my leadership team and with with the East West Rail Board. And we will present the outcome of .
Don't, don't, don't succumb to optimism bias. These are really difficult judgments that I need to make with my leadership team and with with the East West Rail Board. And we will present the outcome of .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
That costs don't exceed. estimates . along the way? Well, I think . it's sort of repeating the same point. There's lots of reasons why rail projects go over their initial estimate. One of them is you get the initial estimate wrong. And to refer to the the book that Mr. Glover mentioned earlier, the book by Jonathan Simcock, well worth a read, not just because I'm quoted. It's well worth the read about, you know, some of the dangers around government sponsored projects in particular is there is a lot of the temptation to sort of lowball your estimate at this point in the process, not not in a sort of Machiavellian way, but the way the system works.
There's a risk, and we see it time and again that the initial estimate is wrong, and you get the funding commitment, and then you're fighting a battle after that because your costs exceed the estimate. What the you know, the challenge ahead of me and my team and my board over the next 6 to 9 months is to try and get that cost envelope. Our best possible view of what we think is what the government is going to have to .
There's a risk, and we see it time and again that the initial estimate is wrong, and you get the funding commitment, and then you're fighting a battle after that because your costs exceed the estimate. What the you know, the challenge ahead of me and my team and my board over the next 6 to 9 months is to try and get that cost envelope. Our best possible view of what we think is what the government is going to have to .
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Scope that we've now arrived at. And I wonder whether I could just come in on the department's role in this as well, that, you know, as as SRO, my responsibility is very much about setting the strategic direction of the project, which we've talked about as the backbone for for growth in the. Oxford-cambridge corridor, to set out the sponsor requirements of what we want for an. operational railway, ensure that we've got the governance to to oversee that effectively and hold the programme to account for delivery. So where we are at the moment is very much around, as David says, working up that that cost envelope and schedule.
And for me, it's about building confidence in that cost envelope and schedule, getting the right balance between what is a minimum viable product, what what is the best value for the. taxpayer in terms of what we can deliver, but also balancing that with. confidence that it is deliverable? You know, we, we, we've talked a little bit already about lessons learned from, from HS2 and, and other major projects from where, where large. infrastructure schemes are sponsored by government have gone wrong previously. And they have, as David said, tended you know, some of the common themes are around, you know.
underestimating under. specifying or. underestimating the. cost and then watching the cost creep up over time. What I've been really keen to do with David is agree, you know, to take the. time to work thoroughly through both the schedule and what is. achievable and the cost envelope that's required to deliver that. Being as lean and responsible as we can be with public funds, and then to put in place the governance that that ensures that both David has the objectives and incentives to deliver that, but also that he has the resources to be able to do the project.
Well, I'm, you know, looking forward to working up the business case so that we can then take that. decision as that ministerial decision as as government around whether this is the right investment choice and keen to ensure that we also ensure that we've got, you know, the scope locked down at that point and DCO submitted and and that we make the funding available to take this project forward because it's that it's that changing the. specification and hitting affordability. problems and taking projects to market when they're insufficiently mature, that. drives the. uncertainty and, and delay and cost growth that we've, we've seen on other projects.
And that that is where we're taking the learning on board here about taking the time to get it .
And for me, it's about building confidence in that cost envelope and schedule, getting the right balance between what is a minimum viable product, what what is the best value for the. taxpayer in terms of what we can deliver, but also balancing that with. confidence that it is deliverable? You know, we, we, we've talked a little bit already about lessons learned from, from HS2 and, and other major projects from where, where large. infrastructure schemes are sponsored by government have gone wrong previously. And they have, as David said, tended you know, some of the common themes are around, you know.
underestimating under. specifying or. underestimating the. cost and then watching the cost creep up over time. What I've been really keen to do with David is agree, you know, to take the. time to work thoroughly through both the schedule and what is. achievable and the cost envelope that's required to deliver that. Being as lean and responsible as we can be with public funds, and then to put in place the governance that that ensures that both David has the objectives and incentives to deliver that, but also that he has the resources to be able to do the project.
Well, I'm, you know, looking forward to working up the business case so that we can then take that. decision as that ministerial decision as as government around whether this is the right investment choice and keen to ensure that we also ensure that we've got, you know, the scope locked down at that point and DCO submitted and and that we make the funding available to take this project forward because it's that it's that changing the. specification and hitting affordability. problems and taking projects to market when they're insufficiently mature, that. drives the. uncertainty and, and delay and cost growth that we've, we've seen on other projects.
And that that is where we're taking the learning on board here about taking the time to get it .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Relatively relatively small. It's phase one we're ramping up now. So we put our accounts in Parliament on was it last week on Monday? So last year we spent. 190 million this year. And this is this is in design development now. So we spent. 190 million in the last financial year. Our budget for the current financial year is around 2.75. So we're ramping up. The bulk of that spend now is on design development. So again key lesson from HS2. Get your design to the level of maturity that you need to make. informed judgments about cost envelope.
So lion's share of our spend at the moment is on design development. And we've also got a very extensive survey programme. So if you're out in the area, particularly between Bedford and Cambridge, you will see a lot of folk in orange jacket doing ground.
So lion's share of our spend at the moment is on design development. And we've also got a very extensive survey programme. So if you're out in the area, particularly between Bedford and Cambridge, you will see a lot of folk in orange jacket doing ground.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
Okay. Thank you. That's helpful. Molly. Thank you. Chair. East West Rail is. proposing discontinue electrification with battery electric trains for the next phase of the project. The campaign to Electrify Britain's Railways has argued that the case for discontinuous electrification on a railway such as east west rail has not .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Been adequately demonstrated. How would you respond to that criticism? I'll answer that. So I think you need to start by remembering the. purpose that East West Rail has, which is to provide. connectivity along the. Ox-cam corridor to drive economic growth. That is what we are tasked with doing. To do that, you need some trains, so there will need to be a. procurement of. trains to run the service from Oxford. Cambridge DFT are the procuring authority for that. We're working with the FTO to make sure that those trains are available. What DFT have done recently, of course, is publish the rolling stock and.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That sets out how DFT intends to deliver new trains for the country. That has made it very clear that moving away from diesel rolling stock is the policy. That means that you will end up with fleets of. electrically powered trains. That's the direction of travel. The question then becomes, to what extent is that full electric driven by full electrification or discontinuous. electrification ?
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is a way in which we can reduce the capital. cost of delivering the infrastructure. The rolling stock. strategy sets out that that is the preferred direction of travel for discontinuous electrification, battery, emus. And we are clear direction from the department that we are expected to deliver our benefits by the the best possible capital cost. This project, we're incentivized to try and do that as efficiently as possible.
Battery emus with discontinuous electrification allows us to do that. It's worth just giving an example of why. discontinuous electrification can save us a. significant .
Battery emus with discontinuous electrification allows us to do that. It's worth just giving an example of why. discontinuous electrification can save us a. significant .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Money in the country. Quite a lot of the national grid power lines run north south. Actually, our railway runs east to west. It means that there are a number of points at which our railway crosses those grid lines for us to put overhead line on the railway in some of those locations would require those national grid lines to either be lifted or buried. That is a. significant cost, and if you can avoid that, keeps the costs down.
It also.
It also.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Will reduce schedule risk because National Grid and other power companies under quite a lot of pressure with the amount of work they've got to do, avoiding those is good from a schedule risk point of view as well. So our our proposal is for. discontinuous electrification battery amused because we believe that will deliver the.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
Benefits at the best capital cost for the program. Okay. Thank you. Yes. Sorry. There's quite a quite a bit to pick at there. Let's start with what you said about the the right overall rolling stock approach. So you cited the rolling stock strategy. But my recollection of reading that document, it does it does very clearly say in there that for railways that are intended to have freight as well, then full electrification might be justified. And you have cited earlier in your evidence today that there is a case for using freight on east west rail. So would discontinuous electrification and battery trains .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Help electric freight to enable electric freight, in your view? So we talked earlier on about the fact that we are providing the capacity to allow freight trains to operate. We're talking about freight train per hour. Doing discontinuous. electrification does not. prevent freight trains from operating along the line of route. We are tasked with providing that connectivity between Oxford and Cambridge, driving that economic growth.
We believe that by doing discontinuous electrification, we can deliver those benefits, those benefits. We're tasked with delivering for the best capital cost for the .
We believe that by doing discontinuous electrification, we can deliver those benefits, those benefits. We're tasked with delivering for the best capital cost for the .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The assumption that the project was working to was that the end state rolling stock would be diesel. So the assumption was that this would be a diesel traction railway. Two things. became very clear to me very quickly. First was that that was never going to be acceptable to stakeholders on the line who could not get their heads around why you were building a new railway , with the intention of it being diesel operated in the 2030s. That was very made very clear to me very quickly. The other thing that was very clear to me very quickly is that we would never get the money for full, full electrification of this railway .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The department, from particularly from the Treasury. Why is that? I think so, I won't speak for the I'll give I'll give you a view. I'll tell you this is a view. Not really so much from my position as chief executive, but my experience generally. The Treasury looks at the amount it needs to spend on.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Areas I think. So I just think that's a general context that we have. Yeah. And the way that felt to me coming in is I came in said, you know, we have to try and find, you know, delivering a brand new railway on the basis of diesel traction is not going to be acceptable in the, you know, mid to late 2030s. And I can see why, you know, it was a real. Bone of contention for stakeholders and communities along the line of route. And it was very clear from the discussions we had earlier, the pressure and the upfront capital cost difference is in hundreds of millions, right?
So the. discontinuous route allowed us to to. decarbonise the end steam traction solution that was. hugely well received along the line of route. And and it did so at a cost that was going to be acceptable to government in a world where, you know, money was no object, that might not be the solution you arrive at. But, you know, that's not the world in which we live. And so I think, you know, we've ended up with a solution that allows us to have a decarbonised railway at a cost that is acceptable to, to government. And using a technology that is becoming is now going to become.
increasingly the norm in line with the national.
So the. discontinuous route allowed us to to. decarbonise the end steam traction solution that was. hugely well received along the line of route. And and it did so at a cost that was going to be acceptable to government in a world where, you know, money was no object, that might not be the solution you arrive at. But, you know, that's not the world in which we live. And so I think, you know, we've ended up with a solution that allows us to have a decarbonised railway at a cost that is acceptable to, to government. And using a technology that is becoming is now going to become.
increasingly the norm in line with the national.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
To. decarbonising the railway is not going to be putting wires up across the whole of the network. And yet all across Europe, they continue to do so. Countries in Europe have a vastly higher percentage of electrified lines than we do on average. Are you aware of any other 100 mile an hour high frequency.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
We're tasked with delivering. Two more. I want to hog it for too much long because it's quite important. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for your forbearance, chair and indeed everybody else. Okay, still a bit more. I want to probe about that. So you mentioned that the cost difference, the cost savings in the hundreds of.
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
Utility diversions that you do have to take into account to get the total cost. Yes, I want to come back to that because there's there's been another east to west railway that's been electrified in recent times, admittedly with problems. And that's the Great Western main line electrification. Now reading the National Audit Office report, there's no mention there that the costs resulting from National Grid power line. diversions as a factor and from having looked into the Midland Main Line business case, that the information I've been given from conversations I've had is that accounted for about. 0.2% of the cost.
So. So what's different here, and have you looked at the .
So. So what's different here, and have you looked at the .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Costs of that particular element in previous electrifications? So I was the operations director for Great Western Railway at the time when the thinking was being done on electrifying Great Western Main Line. I can. recall that there was great concern in the. program at the time about the fact that the. diversions that needed to be done, at least one of which is in your constituency, I think, were. potentially going to put the program at risk. because of the length of time it would take. So there was a lot of concern at the time about it. Now, the.
electrification of Great Western Main Line obviously took longer than expected, was more expensive than expected. But but I'm pretty clear there was concern in the program about the scale of work required to do that. I don't know the exact cost numbers,
electrification of Great Western Main Line obviously took longer than expected, was more expensive than expected. But but I'm pretty clear there was concern in the program about the scale of work required to do that. I don't know the exact cost numbers,
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Stock. capability and cost peer reviewed? We have had a we have a number of expert panels inside East West Rail that give us advice. independent advice from. experts on a number of different topics. We've had. electrification expert advice. They've looked at our proposals. They've made some. observations on on our proposal.
So .
So .
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Olly Glover
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Olly Glover
Had external advice on what we're proposing to do. Okay. All right. And just one more chair. So I do apologize. And and just just in terms of the assumption that it's cheaper, I mean, Mr. Hutton, you keep referring to optimism bias. And I think that's a very important thing to think about. Does the fact that the cost of .
295 car trains for transparent express with batteries costs.
295 car trains for transparent express with batteries costs.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
A range of lease. costs for rolling stock. The way in which we've done it is by assessing the the least cost of the rolling stock. We've taken a range, and that assessment has included a range for the least cost of battery emus, which is. higher than the lease costs for a plain EMU. So our assessment has. included a higher lease cost for battery emus already.
That's that's the way in which the business case work has .
That's that's the way in which the business case work has .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Costs, you know, there's been a phenomenal amount of lessons that have been learned since the great Western electrification. You know, we held internally to the industry a, a challenge panel on, on, on reducing the cost of electrification only three weeks ago with our chief executive and the amount of innovations that have come through in terms of how long we can put between stanchions, voltage control.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
And particularly Scotland have done a wonderful job in terms of that. And you quoted their benchmark rate of 2 billion, £2 million per kilometre, where the challenge on electrification comes is in highly congested urban areas. We are still really struggling to find a way to drive the cost down below.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
For in those highly congested areas. Complex utilities, bridges, structures, Wigan to Bolton. You know, we've delivered about. £4.5 million per SDK, and I recently spent some time with transport for Wales colleagues on their core Valley lines, which is recently just delivered its partial electrification, saving themselves nearly £300 million. Their narrative was very clear around where it is complex and. disproportionate to deliver the.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
The efficiency about being able to have that battery on board enables that the railway to be very successful. And, you know, their batteries never dipped below 90%. So there is innovation to drive the SDK rate down. That is really important. But there are certain parts of the industry where the infrastructure, where it is so disproportionately expensive, the cost of putting in what we now have is an automatic pantograph. changeover and leaves on the ground that allows the pantograph to drop as to run into an alternative mode, and then to pick up that. efficiency in terms of pure infrastructure is significant.
And we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds. And certainly the conclusion we drew from our industry challenge panel, electrification cost, is that where it is appropriate to do so, that has to be a fundamental part of our strategy going forward. Yes. We need to prove that the technology is suitable and robust. Yes, you need to demonstrate that the rolling stock is affordable to buy that. But we're starting to see through what procurement TransPennine, what we're doing in Liverpool, what we're doing in the core valley lines, and we're going to be going out with colleagues in .
And we're talking hundreds of millions of pounds. And certainly the conclusion we drew from our industry challenge panel, electrification cost, is that where it is appropriate to do so, that has to be a fundamental part of our strategy going forward. Yes. We need to prove that the technology is suitable and robust. Yes, you need to demonstrate that the rolling stock is affordable to buy that. But we're starting to see through what procurement TransPennine, what we're doing in Liverpool, what we're doing in the core valley lines, and we're going to be going out with colleagues in .
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
The department's got. confidence that it will deliver a net zero passenger railway at. significantly less. infrastructure and lower upfront costs than full electrification. That's certainly what you know, what the numbers are suggesting on East West Rail we have considered for. electric line. But the analysis suggests that the infrastructure costs, you know, are higher whilst delivering a similar passenger outcome.
But I think the important thing to note here is that, you know, both the final traction and the fleet solution still remain subject to that business case approval, and that will be part of .
But I think the important thing to note here is that, you know, both the final traction and the fleet solution still remain subject to that business case approval, and that will be part of .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Recommendations that it's that that it's made. It was reworked. The the Economic Growth Board was reworked after the 24 election and is now the Oxford to Cambridge Growth Corridor. unit in Treasury. I think that was set up in Treasury under the leadership of Lord Patrick Vallance. So that is the that replaced the Economic Growth Board and continues, I think. And Rosemary and Jody will probably want to comment to play a really important role in.
convening business.
convening business.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Local authorities, other stakeholders along the line of route to drive the agenda for economic growth in in the corridor. And we were really pleased as a limited to see Lord Vallance. confirmed continuing in that role as chair of the of the growth corridor following the recent change in Prime Minister. To see Lord Vallance continuing in that role was really welcome news because he is a very powerful advocate for the importance of the .
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
You know, sessions with with England's economic heartland. So actually providing that joined up approach across the corridor to, to look at the opportunity as a whole, you know, the, the. delivery board has been just, just hugely helpful in terms of. convening all of the parts of government who have a. Opportunity to influence the success of this project.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Both to unlock barriers to successful. delivery and, and, you know, really bring some momentum and. focus to what needs to happen to, to make this work. Well, I think what that's also enabled, you know, so, so there's a cross Whitehall piece there driven by. ministers to set the. ambition and to unlock the impediments to success. I think what we've been able to do, learning on the learning, the lessons from HS2 and other major projects, is refresh our own governance and oversight of the project to ensure that that we are.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
My East West Rail Limited. We sit in Network Rail offices. My leadership team comprises a number of SR secondees my whole team. So. So we're working hand in glove with Network Rail. That's really important. And actually around half of the. The spend on the programme will be delivered by Network Rail on its infrastructure. It's about half of it is the new build stuff between Bedford and Cambridge. Half of it is upgrading existing rail infrastructure. So the success of this project is critically dependent on East West Rail Limited and Network Rail working hand in glove. One of the questions that I raised, I'm not going to sort of selfish agenda in maintaining an independent East West Rail Limited.
When I came into the role, I started a discussion with government and with Andrew Haynes, the then chief executive of Network Rail, about whether it still made sense for East West Rail Limited to be a separate arm's length body set up for the for the delivery and design of the railway. Because there's a lot of history here. When East West Rail was first set up back in.
When I came into the role, I started a discussion with government and with Andrew Haynes, the then chief executive of Network Rail, about whether it still made sense for East West Rail Limited to be a separate arm's length body set up for the for the delivery and design of the railway. Because there's a lot of history here. When East West Rail was first set up back in.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
There was a very different vision about what its role would be and what the future operation of the railway would look like. We're very clear now that our role is as systems integrator. As we've touched on already, our job is to. coordinate inputs from across the. industry to make sure we bring together all of those elements that are. required for successful delivery of of railway services. That's the outcome that we need. Now. We raised specifically whether keeping east west rail as a separate arm's length body was the right thing to do. And we raised that in the context of the James Stewart review into.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Off the back of the James Stewart Review, the Department and East West Rail, we jointly. commissioned a follow on review on East West rail governance that included James himself, actually as part of the review team. And. And one of the questions that we posed to that review was, would it make sense to move East West Rail Limited into GNR or in fact, GBR from day one? The conclusion that was reached by that review, which was endorsed by.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Was actually, for the time being at least, there is merit in retaining East West Rail Limited as a separate arm's length body. Why is that? I think partly just where we are in the programme, having a single purpose. vehicle focused on securing the DCO, developing the design, getting the project to the point of main works delivery. It makes sense to keep East West Rail Limited as a separate body and in the meantime allow GBR stand up to take place. I think it's fair to say, although it's probably not written down anywhere, there is an. expectation that in a few years time, maybe 20.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
By which time, all being well, we will have secured our DCO, we'll have secured full funding for the railway. We will be at the point of starting main works. delivery and in parallel, GBR will have been stood up and a bit more steady state. I think there is an. expectation that whoever's in government at that time would probably want to. revisit whether at that stage. We should revisit the question of whether East West Rail should remain as a separate entity. But the question was looked at very. carefully in the light of the James Stewart review into HS2.
There were pros and cons around it, but the decision reached was actually, for the time being to try and incorporate East West Rail into into GBR at the point of stand up would probably import a bit of a risk in terms of distraction and all the other changes going on. So. So it's as we are for the time being. I think that makes sense. The point I'd stress is that we're not two separate. organisations in the way that perhaps we were when East West Rail was first established back in 2017. That was very much the original vision for East West Rail when it was set up by the then Secretary of State, Chris Grayling, was that it would be very distinct from Network Rail.
That's not where we are in today's world. We, as I say, we work hand in glove .
There were pros and cons around it, but the decision reached was actually, for the time being to try and incorporate East West Rail into into GBR at the point of stand up would probably import a bit of a risk in terms of distraction and all the other changes going on. So. So it's as we are for the time being. I think that makes sense. The point I'd stress is that we're not two separate. organisations in the way that perhaps we were when East West Rail was first established back in 2017. That was very much the original vision for East West Rail when it was set up by the then Secretary of State, Chris Grayling, was that it would be very distinct from Network Rail.
That's not where we are in today's world. We, as I say, we work hand in glove .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Trajectory that we're on. Do you keep the answers quite short because we're short for time. Now, if I make if I could just add a little to that. So David has has talked about the question as to whether East West Rail should become part of Network Rail, Great British Rail. I think it's also worth thinking, though, that that Network Rail is a series of routes. I talked about north south power lines earlier on, but actually a lot of Network Rail's routes run north south as well. And those routes will become business units in GBR East west rail route actually cuts across.
seven of those routes, seven of Gbr's business units, regardless of whether East West Rail is inside Network Rail or GBR or not, it is important to have a group of people who are focused on .
seven of those routes, seven of Gbr's business units, regardless of whether East West Rail is inside Network Rail or GBR or not, it is important to have a group of people who are focused on .
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Do you think it's working to date? I mean, as as Ben just described, this is about how we integrate and how our relationships work to deliver this together. I think whether in Network Rail, outside Network Rail, in GBR, it's about how we structure ourselves, both in terms of the governance, in terms of the assurance, but in terms of how we we set the system up for success. We've recently made some some significant changes in how we integrate together. David has. appointed one of our major programme. directors to sit on his leadership board, and Kaylee, who fulfills that role.
represents the broader Network Rail, the six route six seven routes that it crosses. Now we interface with five main lines timetables. That integration is absolutely.
represents the broader Network Rail, the six route six seven routes that it crosses. Now we interface with five main lines timetables. That integration is absolutely.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
But having a clear guiding mind focused on the outcome is really important, and David's team can provide that. What we can provide in terms of that integration is making sure that whilst we're building the new, we keep the existing railway. operational during. construction and post-construction. And I think that interface, playing the best athletes in their roles is really important. We've really established that clear governance. So yeah, we've still got work to go in terms of how we move into the next delivery phase.
But we are .
But we are .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
We are we are pleased with the direction of travel and the integration we have together. If I may, chair, and it's very brief, one bill on Christian's point, and we've mentioned that the review we've done of governance. So to to really give effect to the lesson learn and the need for integration, we now have Network Rail and DFT embedded at every level of our programme governance up to and including the East West Rail Board. So we now have, for example, Ellie Burrows, the regional managing director of Eastern Region, attends the East West Rail Board. So , so complete.
integration from the from my team right the way up to the .
integration from the from my team right the way up to the .
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Lessons learned. I don't think any of the others have anything to add on that. I think the only thing I would pick up from what we've just been saying about the, the collaborative working with Network Rail and East West Rail Co, picks up one of the lessons from from HS2 lessons learnt as well, which is the clarity of. accountability and you know, not not in addition to the governance.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Take. responsibility for delivering an end to end railway into operation. I mean, just, just on the HS2 lesson learned and very briefly. So I mentioned Mark Wilde already I meet regularly with Mark. I would say the biggest lesson already actually embedded in the project and the biggest advantage East West Rail has in some ways over HS2 is we have absolute. clarity of what we're trying to do, why we are here, what our purpose is. We're here to enable sustainable economic growth along the Oxford-cambridge corridor and. And I think HS2 has suffered from the get go about .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
We are absolutely clear what we're here to do. I don't think people would disagree with that. So in terms of the lesson. Yeah. What about lessons learned from east west, east West rail itself for other projects? I think David, Ben and Christian already touched on this. Rosemary and Jody, you got anything to add in terms of .
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Future projects? What we can learn from east, east, west. I think, you know, there's been a lot of learning from HS2 that we've taken into East West Rail in in the department's governance and oversight arrangements. You know, some of the things that have changed in our sponsor team around recognising the need for a. dedicated SRO and appointing rather than than as part of putting East West Rail as part of the.
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
And our role to be to to. specify and set the the policy intent, the objectives and the outcomes, but then very much be eyes on, but hands off and give the. accountability to David and East, West and East West Rail Co what I think we've been really good at. building on, on the experience of HS2 is bringing together both ensuring that we've got got really well. experienced SROs across the department, leading the major projects with the capacity and the capability to do those well, but also bringing them together as a. You know, as a as a cohort.
So peer. support and sharing experience and lessons. So I meet with my SRO colleagues of the other big, big infrastructure projects in the.
So peer. support and sharing experience and lessons. So I meet with my SRO colleagues of the other big, big infrastructure projects in the.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
That we learn with them so that they're embedding them even earlier on in. I think there are two there are two specific areas I would highlight. It's definitely about sharing with NPR. One is the way we have built that strategic case, because NPR has a lot of similarities in terms of the the economic case. agglomeration building and economic sharing, our thinking about how we develop this compelling strategic case for the railway. I think the other clear area where we are learning lessons, which we can share with future projects, not just in rail, is we are a pilot project under the Planning and Infrastructure Act.
So we're the first big project going through the new processes, and .
So we're the first big project going through the new processes, and .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Meaningful engagement. So how do you respond to those criticisms? So I think that I think that quote might come from an organisation called Betfair, which is a campaign group that is existed for a number of years and has campaigned for a different route choice through Bedford. That route choice was made in 2023. Actually, I think we've I think we've been run really most of the feedback we get is that the consultation processes we run have been really effective. We get really high response rates, and we've been able to demonstrate that actually, we have made significant changes to our design as a result of the consultation.
So, for example, in last year's.
So, for example, in last year's.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Cambourne Station. There are a number of other examples I could point to. So I think we covered, we've covered. We've made a lot of. We've made a you know, I think we've run a really good consultation process. I think as we are the first. project big project through the Planning and Infrastructure Act. So the process we're going through at the moment with local.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
We had a meeting. We've set up an East West Rail forum, which brings together all the local authorities at the political leadership level. It's chaired by a former chair of this committee, Huw Merriman chairs that forum for us. Lord Hendy dialed into that first meeting we had a few weeks ago and explained to the local authorities, and I think the leadership of the local authorities get this, that it will feel different. We are the first project going through up to the DCO submission. Under the processes established under the new act, it will feel different. And at times because it's different, it will feel a bit bumpy and a bit uncomfortable.
We think, as I said earlier, actually, it doesn't mean less consultation, it means doing it differently in a more iterative way. But I think the criticism that you cite, I don't accept. I think actually what I've found, and I do a lot of public events, and the nature of it is that those who turn up at the public events, you know, are often there because they've got concerns about the project. I can't tell you how often I've had people say to me, well, you know, I .
We think, as I said earlier, actually, it doesn't mean less consultation, it means doing it differently in a more iterative way. But I think the criticism that you cite, I don't accept. I think actually what I've found, and I do a lot of public events, and the nature of it is that those who turn up at the public events, you know, are often there because they've got concerns about the project. I can't tell you how often I've had people say to me, well, you know, I .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
All of all of all of that, all of that and, and SMEs. Businesses. Yes. Yeah. And we could provide a huge amount of detail on, on, on all of that. We, we work really hard to, to engage with everyone along the line of route. I think, look, the criticism that you quote, I think is driven by a. frustration from some who are opposed to the scheme that when we came out to consult earlier this year, we were very clear we're not consulting at this stage in the process on route choice, whether we're turning left or right, whether we're going north into Cambridge, south into Cambridge.
Those decisions were made some years ago. We were very clear that the purpose of the. consultation in the spring was about. refining the detail of the design along the chosen route. Now, for those who, who, who fundamentally oppose that route choice, that's not a message they wanted to hear. So I think that drives some of the criticism that you may have heard or you quote around the nature of the consultation, is because people wanted to.
Those decisions were made some years ago. We were very clear that the purpose of the. consultation in the spring was about. refining the detail of the design along the chosen route. Now, for those who, who, who fundamentally oppose that route choice, that's not a message they wanted to hear. So I think that drives some of the criticism that you may have heard or you quote around the nature of the consultation, is because people wanted to.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
A design based on the route choices that had been made at that time. It's partly a lesson learned from HS2 as well. Okay, thanks. You've done? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I just want to pick up on at least one item that was mentioned at the first session. Dave Count from Aslef talked about the. frustration and the wisdom from his perspective of moving a maintenance depot on the route.
Does, you know, did you did any of you want to .
Does, you know, did you did any of you want to .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
Did did did you want to pick up on that. Yes. I think I can start off and then Ben might want to add to it. So in the first phase there, you know as part of the the working up the design, there was always an intention to have a depot in Bletchley that was part of the kind of proposal for East West Rail. specifically when we brought the operator on board, obviously, we looked at that from a wider operation, operational perspective. And, you know, we had advice and. proposals from our. operator and from the rest of industry at that point to ensure we got the right solution.
We .
We .
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Speaker 8
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Speaker 8
The specific site at Bletchley because he talked about one that's already there. There's an existing Bletchley site, and that was always within the scope of the options that we had. So whilst I think that was being set up, so some of the drivers that were being recruited and brought in would have gone to Chilterns, Home Depot, they would, you know, it was always .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Session that any of you wanted to pick up on? I think maybe just on the depot? I would simply add that I think Dave's point is a valid one, that it is. important that you consider those things early. Jody's talked about the fact that there was a consideration. I made the point earlier on that I think it is critically important that people who know how to operate the railway have a.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
But the earlier you think about them, the more likely you are to be able to avoid them. The only point. So in any point to pick up from the first David Carr from Aslef, you know, it was very critical about the set up of East West Rail. And I just want to stress that that's the change we've made in terms of our accountability. What he I think what he is being critical of is what was in place that has led us to where we are today.
We have made .
We have made .
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Alex Mayer
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Alex Mayer
Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry. Going along the line. Sorry, Christian, I was just yeah, yeah. You know, I think we share the frustration of the panel and the public around not running services on, on CS one. It's certainly the. department's ambition and intention to unlock that with with Chiltern and the Union as soon as we can. But also, you know, we've talked a lot here about learning, learning from the experience we have there to, to ensure that.
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Speaker 9
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Speaker 9
Live along the route are equally frustrated. Christian, just there's a few key steps for us to take over the next few weeks. So Tony made reference to the fact that the station lease was about to be signed for for Winslow. So that is being sorted. This week we're working with West Midlands Trains to just issue the contracts for seven new staff that will staff the platforms seven and eight at Bletchley, so they will go out later on this week as well. The final stage really for us is to submit our final evidence to our internal systems review panel , to allow both stations to come into full in full and full use, and we can set the whatever the date we set as the go live date for passenger services, we've obviously got to publish the timetable and start enabling tickets to be available for sale at that point in time.
So once we get over the this morning's discussion and we .
So once we get over the this morning's discussion and we .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Than mid to late 2030s? No, not at this stage. No, not at this stage. Okay. Thank you very much for your evidence and the time you spent preparing for today. Again, if there's anything you didn't have a chance to cover or want to add more detail, please do feel free to write to us. And that concludes today's meeting. The evidence we've received today being a one off session.
It will inform future.
It will inform future.
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