Home Affairs Committee
Tuesday 27th October 2026
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14:22
14:22
14:22
Peter Prinsley
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Peter Prinsley
Good afternoon. I'm Peter Prinsley, MP for bury. I hope you can hear us. So I've just been looking. It says here that one one woman every three days is murdered in this country. There are more than 100,000 rapes per year, and about 1 in 20 of the population are said to be perpetrators of violence against women and girls. So my question really is about what impact the freedom from violence and abuse the Vawg strategy has had so far, and how does this compare with the impact of previous strategies?
14:22
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thank you. It's really timely this week because I think it was just last week that our National Centre for Public Protection set out the the Strategic Threat Assessment for Violence against Women and Girls. And it was staggering. And we also had some of our our crime survey for England and Wales statistics last week showing an increase in domestic abuse over the last year. So it is true that I think in general, government and society is starting to kind of really understand both the prevalence and harm of domestic abuse, but also widely, violence against women and girls.
I think the Domestic Abuse Act has helped really elevate. And the strategy that was published last year that you're asking about. We're coming up to almost a year. It was. Long awaited. We waited a year for it with the new government. And one of the things that I think was really positive about it was that it did set quite a good context for the drivers of violence against women and girls. It certainly didn't shy away from the idea that there are male victims, but it definitely took a gendered nature, understood and explained the gendered nature of these crimes, while at the same time not undermining boys and men who are victims.
And so I thought that was very positive. It had a lot of language in it about misogyny. For example. It took a cross-governmental approach. So very often in years past, we've criticised, you know, strategies like these for being too criminal justice focused. This was very much not only criminal justice focused, you could see a real concerted effort across all government departments. Ellie and I are both kind of hosted at the Home Office. But but certainly in my role with domestic abuse, I meet across all of all departments housing, health MoJ and I can see how this strategy has influenced each and every department to kind of put their best foot forward, particularly, I would say, in health is a very good example.
Probably the strongest example from my perspective in the whole of the strategy. I have been in this role for seven years. So I've seen many, many variations of leaders and ministers over the years, and it was difficult for me to get a foot into Department of Health and Social Care in the past, or what I would call a meaningful one, where, as this strategy did create a commitment from Department of Health and Social Care that is fairly substantial. And I can also say is being implemented. So creating a GP pathway called Steps to Safety. The first 12 integrated care boards have just been commissioned, fairly substantial funding put alongside that 34 million, which is actually not cited as a figure in the strategy, but has subsequently transpired.
There's been just a Sato MP who's been, you know, has been given a role within the Department of Health and Social Care. So I'm sure we'll go back to some of the positives. There's also positive in that it creates you know, it creates a I've a view of a public health approach to these things. So much more weighing towards prevention, early intervention, not so much. We've often lurched in the past to crisis, but frankly, I'm sure we'll you know, my overarching worry about this strategy is that we don't have a grip on it. Some of the best parts of it.
We are not being transparent enough about both where we are in terms of the actions . There are. Actions. There's a there's an entire document that lists all of the actions within the strategy, and there's not enough understanding of the governance and the accountability of the strategy in general has a lot of good ideas in it. But there are many, many, many actions that I can't actually explain to you where we are right now, who's taking responsibility in government for those actions and how much funding resource planning is attached to those actions. And that is my overarching concern.
And I highly question whether such a cross-cutting strategy should be led at the Home Office. I think we have to consider quite strongly whether, considering the the our Prime Minister and the driving from the centre for all sorts of things like rough sleeping at the end, rough sleeping summit yesterday, whether this strategy would be better governed from the Cabinet Office or number ten, because my last word about it is that we don't really have time to waste. This is a good strategy, but it's not got a grip on it and accountability on it. And we're losing a lot of ground that we could be gaining if we were implementing the actions within it.
I think the Domestic Abuse Act has helped really elevate. And the strategy that was published last year that you're asking about. We're coming up to almost a year. It was. Long awaited. We waited a year for it with the new government. And one of the things that I think was really positive about it was that it did set quite a good context for the drivers of violence against women and girls. It certainly didn't shy away from the idea that there are male victims, but it definitely took a gendered nature, understood and explained the gendered nature of these crimes, while at the same time not undermining boys and men who are victims.
And so I thought that was very positive. It had a lot of language in it about misogyny. For example. It took a cross-governmental approach. So very often in years past, we've criticised, you know, strategies like these for being too criminal justice focused. This was very much not only criminal justice focused, you could see a real concerted effort across all government departments. Ellie and I are both kind of hosted at the Home Office. But but certainly in my role with domestic abuse, I meet across all of all departments housing, health MoJ and I can see how this strategy has influenced each and every department to kind of put their best foot forward, particularly, I would say, in health is a very good example.
Probably the strongest example from my perspective in the whole of the strategy. I have been in this role for seven years. So I've seen many, many variations of leaders and ministers over the years, and it was difficult for me to get a foot into Department of Health and Social Care in the past, or what I would call a meaningful one, where, as this strategy did create a commitment from Department of Health and Social Care that is fairly substantial. And I can also say is being implemented. So creating a GP pathway called Steps to Safety. The first 12 integrated care boards have just been commissioned, fairly substantial funding put alongside that 34 million, which is actually not cited as a figure in the strategy, but has subsequently transpired.
There's been just a Sato MP who's been, you know, has been given a role within the Department of Health and Social Care. So I'm sure we'll go back to some of the positives. There's also positive in that it creates you know, it creates a I've a view of a public health approach to these things. So much more weighing towards prevention, early intervention, not so much. We've often lurched in the past to crisis, but frankly, I'm sure we'll you know, my overarching worry about this strategy is that we don't have a grip on it. Some of the best parts of it.
We are not being transparent enough about both where we are in terms of the actions . There are. Actions. There's a there's an entire document that lists all of the actions within the strategy, and there's not enough understanding of the governance and the accountability of the strategy in general has a lot of good ideas in it. But there are many, many, many actions that I can't actually explain to you where we are right now, who's taking responsibility in government for those actions and how much funding resource planning is attached to those actions. And that is my overarching concern.
And I highly question whether such a cross-cutting strategy should be led at the Home Office. I think we have to consider quite strongly whether, considering the the our Prime Minister and the driving from the centre for all sorts of things like rough sleeping at the end, rough sleeping summit yesterday, whether this strategy would be better governed from the Cabinet Office or number ten, because my last word about it is that we don't really have time to waste. This is a good strategy, but it's not got a grip on it and accountability on it. And we're losing a lot of ground that we could be gaining if we were implementing the actions within it.
14:28
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. Just to add to what Nicole said, I welcome that . The strategy is cross-government. I think it's ambitious. I think it's right that it's tackling the underlying issues that are driving this increase in violence against women and girls. But from the position I'm in, I see the strategy as a huge missed opportunity to protect the women and girls that come and tell me about the harms that they've suffered. Modern slavery isn't mentioned in this strategy, and it was in previous vawg strategies that we saw. We do have in the underlying metrics that the government's trying to halve domestic abuse, sexual violence and stalking listed all very important things that we do need to address, but we're not including in those metrics any national referral mechanisms, statistics or anything which outlines some of the harms that are happening when it comes to sexual exploitation and trafficking.
And I think the consequence of that a year in is becoming really, really clear. The survivors that I speak to don't feel like they've heard about the strategy or that it impacts them. And I think that's how we should judge success. They don't feel like they're being listened to in the delivery of the strategy and the political will. Attention and focus is going on areas which are explicitly outlined. So whilst I welcome the strategy, I think it's doing an awful lot of good beyond just transparency, accountability and ownership. I don't think it's truly recognising all the forms of vawg that there are, and I would like to see sexual exploitation and modern slavery more clearly referenced in strategy moving forward and in the accompanying actions underneath it.
And I think the consequence of that a year in is becoming really, really clear. The survivors that I speak to don't feel like they've heard about the strategy or that it impacts them. And I think that's how we should judge success. They don't feel like they're being listened to in the delivery of the strategy and the political will. Attention and focus is going on areas which are explicitly outlined. So whilst I welcome the strategy, I think it's doing an awful lot of good beyond just transparency, accountability and ownership. I don't think it's truly recognising all the forms of vawg that there are, and I would like to see sexual exploitation and modern slavery more clearly referenced in strategy moving forward and in the accompanying actions underneath it.
14:30
Peter Prinsley
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Peter Prinsley
Okay. Thank you for that. So that's some stuff about the additional things you'd like to see. But the the question about the impact of what we've done so far could perhaps be measured. I mean, there is a metric which is to halve violence against women and girls, and we've been at it for a little while now. Do you have any sense of whether we're going backwards or forwards at the moment?
14:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So when it comes to sexual exploitation, if we look over just the last year for British women and girls, that's risen by 23%. Now, that's not a metric that is underlying the strategy and what the government's trying to achieve. But I still think it's meaningful because it shows actually that, sadly, for some of the most vulnerable women that often have overlapping needs, they may have been victims of domestic abuse, victims of child abuse, but they're now victims of sexual exploitation. We're not managing to decrease that number. And I think this is a moment a year in when we need to ask ourselves the question, what needs to change to be able to help that group?
14:31
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, the metrics I mean, the strategy was published with metrics and and they were quite ambitious in terms of I mean, when I first saw the metrics, I thought, well, you know, it's a bold approach because it feels the headline metric is quite pure. It is about, you know, the prevalence of violence against women and girls among people aged 16 or over for domestic abuse, for sexual assault and stalking. I think that plays straight into what you just pointed out and that obviously those are three of the strands and not all, but some of the supporting metrics female homicide, repeat domestic abuse, prevalence of sexual harassment.
There's a number of metrics as well. My point is, in general, we're almost a year in, and I don't know how these metrics, other than the headline metrics, which I believe is the crime survey for England and Wales. I've never seen a document that shows me or have heard of a document. Maybe there's one behind the scenes I'm not aware of that actually shows exactly how these metrics are going to be measured and where we are right now.
And that is what I mean by this lack of grip and lack of transparency.
There's a number of metrics as well. My point is, in general, we're almost a year in, and I don't know how these metrics, other than the headline metrics, which I believe is the crime survey for England and Wales. I've never seen a document that shows me or have heard of a document. Maybe there's one behind the scenes I'm not aware of that actually shows exactly how these metrics are going to be measured and where we are right now.
And that is what I mean by this lack of grip and lack of transparency.
14:32
Peter Prinsley
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Peter Prinsley
What we what we're seeing is a fall in crime. Nationally, all sorts of crimes are less burglary, assault in the street, car theft, radios being nicked. But what we're seeing, we're not seeing I don't think, or at least I haven't seen any evidence that we're seeing a fall yet in violence against women and girls, domestic violence. And if anything, what you describe as an increase, which is very worrying.
14:33
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It is worrying. And I think. You would expect the more you would do, you'd really more naturally see increases because you may be helping people earlier. People will be coming forward feeling more confident in systems. But that's again what lays behind the metrics. How are things being measured? What are we what do we make of that analysis? A lot of that is not something that is being discussed openly and transparently. I think we could accept some increases if we. For example, when you open up a GP pathway, you absolutely will see people coming forward to health early.
It's a trusted environment. You would naturally expect GPS to show more. If anything, kind of a. It wouldn't be an increase, but it would. It would appear as one. So there's something about making sense of what the metrics are. But we can only do that if we're having a transparent conversation. And we know exactly how things are being measured. And that's not happening. Very interesting. It may be happening behind closed doors with ministers that I could accept.
That might be entirely true, but I'm not aware of that.
It's a trusted environment. You would naturally expect GPS to show more. If anything, kind of a. It wouldn't be an increase, but it would. It would appear as one. So there's something about making sense of what the metrics are. But we can only do that if we're having a transparent conversation. And we know exactly how things are being measured. And that's not happening. Very interesting. It may be happening behind closed doors with ministers that I could accept.
That might be entirely true, but I'm not aware of that.
14:34
Karen Bradley
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Karen Bradley
It's very interesting because it's one of the points we talked about when we were first talking about these metrics, that that if the focus is put on these things, you can have more people coming forward and therefore you have an increase in numbers. It's not actually an increase in prevalence, but it's an increase in reporting. So it's something to be careful of. Paul Kohler.
14:34
Paul Kohler
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Paul Kohler
Thank you, chair. Thank you for joining us. Excuse me. The previous book strategy focused a lot on pursuing perpetrators through the criminal justice system. And that clearly has a huge role to play. But it's not not enough on its own. Dame Dame Nicole, you mentioned the strategic threat risk assessment from the National Center published last week, that identify repeat perpetrators as a critical issue. So can I ask you what you think is being done? Is enough being done to to pay attention to that, to actually break the cycle of abuse? That's my general question. And my specific question is, I'm aware of the drive project by the Home Office, which I understand Cambridgeshire police are implementing.
What is your view on that and is it being is there uptake from other police forces?
What is your view on that and is it being is there uptake from other police forces?
14:35
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
There is still a lot in the strategy that has to do with criminal justice. And that's right, because, you know, I know from victim survivors of domestic abuse, police will be one of the first ports of call. So I always you know, I don't think it's a criticism to say, well, in the past we've focused on criminal justice. It was a natural place, but it's not the only place. And I do think we've moved on from that. So there's plenty, as you say, of actions that are the Home Office should be driving and is driving that are incredibly important.
But if we look at what's in the strategy in terms of early intervention and prevention, it's it is there. But my argument would be that it could be so much more robust. And it also is fairly underdeveloped a year in. So, for example, there are commitments in the strategy that relate to schools. It's one of the things that the evidence, the gathering of evidence prior to the strategy that government analysts conducted showed, you know, schools based work is well evidenced as effective. And yet we do still have, I would say, for for the scale of the problem, modest commitments from the Department of Education, at least they're there.
That's better than before. But just as an example, a fairly modest commitment on bringing together the right tools and information for teacher training or schools training. Again, I don't know fully how well underway that is, because we do not have a structure and a transparent way of kind of knowing how the actions are taking effect and when. And so there's some commitments there about building the evidence base through the Youth Endowment Foundation. That is definitely up and running. But I still think from my travels in England, particularly where it's, you know, this is devolved to Wales, but for for England, there's a lot of activity in schools, there's lots of individual charities and lots of individual initiatives.
And, and some of them are very, very good. And but we don't have enough of a community of practice, a coherent understanding of what good absolutely looks like and must be. And each and every school, what is the whole school approach? So there's a lot missing and there's a lot kind of half implemented in that prevention strand. And I would say the same for the the early intervention. So there's, there's a, it is a real mixed picture in terms of. And this is why I feel this sense of urgency. We don't have a lot of time.
Let's get on with seeing what those commitments are fully. And how do we. What we were told when this strategy was published is that it was the first version that there would be other iterations and it would build over the years. And and that is one area that needs quite a lot of building and a lot of emphasis that we don't have. There's quite a bit on the online space, which I think will come to as well. Drive is commissioned by the Home Office for a rollout across the whole of England and Wales, and I feel it's one of many things that help centre more focus on the perpetrator.
So having kind of a way of working for the police and partners, which actually allocates a focus on the offender, is really welcome. Some areas have taken to that better than others. I mean, I'm you're going to think I'm very repetitive. But again, if you said to me, domestic abuse Commissioner, how many areas have rolled out drive of you know what I would say? I don't know because I don't have anything that is reported on in front of me. I know anecdotally the places I have talked to who are implementing drive and how it's going, but I don't know where we are in that rollout, and that's where we need much more grip and transparency so we can all get behind.
And there are lots of areas who would be really welcoming getting behind some of this activity, but they have to know when they can depend on it coming and when it you know, who's planning it and where they're looking to. I was in Wiltshire on Friday. It was amazing event. But what they need to know is from this strategy, what is coming down the line that's helping them get done, what they'd like to get done. And you know, we're all being held back by not having enough transparency here.
But if we look at what's in the strategy in terms of early intervention and prevention, it's it is there. But my argument would be that it could be so much more robust. And it also is fairly underdeveloped a year in. So, for example, there are commitments in the strategy that relate to schools. It's one of the things that the evidence, the gathering of evidence prior to the strategy that government analysts conducted showed, you know, schools based work is well evidenced as effective. And yet we do still have, I would say, for for the scale of the problem, modest commitments from the Department of Education, at least they're there.
That's better than before. But just as an example, a fairly modest commitment on bringing together the right tools and information for teacher training or schools training. Again, I don't know fully how well underway that is, because we do not have a structure and a transparent way of kind of knowing how the actions are taking effect and when. And so there's some commitments there about building the evidence base through the Youth Endowment Foundation. That is definitely up and running. But I still think from my travels in England, particularly where it's, you know, this is devolved to Wales, but for for England, there's a lot of activity in schools, there's lots of individual charities and lots of individual initiatives.
And, and some of them are very, very good. And but we don't have enough of a community of practice, a coherent understanding of what good absolutely looks like and must be. And each and every school, what is the whole school approach? So there's a lot missing and there's a lot kind of half implemented in that prevention strand. And I would say the same for the the early intervention. So there's, there's a, it is a real mixed picture in terms of. And this is why I feel this sense of urgency. We don't have a lot of time.
Let's get on with seeing what those commitments are fully. And how do we. What we were told when this strategy was published is that it was the first version that there would be other iterations and it would build over the years. And and that is one area that needs quite a lot of building and a lot of emphasis that we don't have. There's quite a bit on the online space, which I think will come to as well. Drive is commissioned by the Home Office for a rollout across the whole of England and Wales, and I feel it's one of many things that help centre more focus on the perpetrator.
So having kind of a way of working for the police and partners, which actually allocates a focus on the offender, is really welcome. Some areas have taken to that better than others. I mean, I'm you're going to think I'm very repetitive. But again, if you said to me, domestic abuse Commissioner, how many areas have rolled out drive of you know what I would say? I don't know because I don't have anything that is reported on in front of me. I know anecdotally the places I have talked to who are implementing drive and how it's going, but I don't know where we are in that rollout, and that's where we need much more grip and transparency so we can all get behind.
And there are lots of areas who would be really welcoming getting behind some of this activity, but they have to know when they can depend on it coming and when it you know, who's planning it and where they're looking to. I was in Wiltshire on Friday. It was amazing event. But what they need to know is from this strategy, what is coming down the line that's helping them get done, what they'd like to get done. And you know, we're all being held back by not having enough transparency here.
14:40
Paul Kohler
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Paul Kohler
14:40
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I don't think drive would answer all of those questions in terms. I mean, drive is a good structure of a way. It helps create a structure of a way of working that I think is very positive. It's not the only way, and it's not the only way to achieve. I mean, my own strategy, which is separate from the strategy and focus, is very much on point of first contact with the police, because I believe that victims and survivors need and deserve an excellent, very first response. So we don't have this continual, you know, no further action.
How many times does that need to happen before we're back? And maybe algorithms are starting to kick in and some of the the kind of tactical policing methods are kicking in. We need a much better quality first response from the police and that that can and should be planned into police reform. We have that great opportunity in front of us, and so I hope that will happen. But it's again, that kind of thing is not necessarily written into the strategy.
And I felt that was an omission.
How many times does that need to happen before we're back? And maybe algorithms are starting to kick in and some of the the kind of tactical policing methods are kicking in. We need a much better quality first response from the police and that that can and should be planned into police reform. We have that great opportunity in front of us, and so I hope that will happen. But it's again, that kind of thing is not necessarily written into the strategy.
And I felt that was an omission.
14:41
14:41
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes. So when it comes to modern slavery and human trafficking, the police have two roles. One, to help us identify potential victims and refer them into the national referral mechanism and of course, to hold the perpetrators to account when it gets to that stage. I think looking across the numbers, they speak for themselves that there's only been 70 people prosecuted in England and Wales for modern slavery offences in the last year, against a backdrop of over 23,000 victims. There's clearly a big disparity there. We do know what works in terms of supporting victims through the criminal justice system with things like victim navigators.
But I think just taking a step back from the Vawg strategy, the government has cut funding for dedicated modern slavery and human trafficking teams in police forces. So in order for us to be actually saying that this shouldn't be a high reward, low risk crime, we need that to be matched by government funding, by government messaging and rhetoric beyond just the strategy. And I think at the moment that is missing. And sadly, when I speak to frontline services and I speak to survivors of sexual exploitation, they don't feel like their perpetrators are being held to account.
And that is compounded by the fact that they are having to navigate a system which lasts for years. They're having to hold that trauma. They're having to live with that uncertainty. And I know we'll come on to talk about early release scheme, but they're also beginning to question, is it really worth them navigating that long system to maybe not even end up with offences in place at the end or their perpetrator being released quite quickly? So I think when we're talking about the cross-government nature of the strategy, we need to look at government as a whole and the entire message that they're giving to female survivors.
But I don't feel like we are doing enough to prevent that harm when it comes to modern slavery.
But I think just taking a step back from the Vawg strategy, the government has cut funding for dedicated modern slavery and human trafficking teams in police forces. So in order for us to be actually saying that this shouldn't be a high reward, low risk crime, we need that to be matched by government funding, by government messaging and rhetoric beyond just the strategy. And I think at the moment that is missing. And sadly, when I speak to frontline services and I speak to survivors of sexual exploitation, they don't feel like their perpetrators are being held to account.
And that is compounded by the fact that they are having to navigate a system which lasts for years. They're having to hold that trauma. They're having to live with that uncertainty. And I know we'll come on to talk about early release scheme, but they're also beginning to question, is it really worth them navigating that long system to maybe not even end up with offences in place at the end or their perpetrator being released quite quickly? So I think when we're talking about the cross-government nature of the strategy, we need to look at government as a whole and the entire message that they're giving to female survivors.
But I don't feel like we are doing enough to prevent that harm when it comes to modern slavery.
14:43
14:43
Karen Bradley
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Karen Bradley
Just interested on the point around data, because it's always been the case that it's nigh on impossible to get the data. Police forces record things differently. They're recorded differently in the criminal justice system. It's very, very difficult to get that. We met a group of Romanian MPs last week and they've just passed a femicide law. It doesn't actually change the offences, but it makes femicide something that has to be recorded and properly identified.
I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that.
I just wondered if you had any thoughts on that.
14:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think that sounds really positive. I mean, one of the things that has happened, and I think it was, and I'm positive it was an action in this strategy, was this notion of the Da flag defence. And that sounds very simple, but but what it means is, is there's it creates a judicial finding so that at the time of sentencing, it's very clear what is a domestic abuse related offence. And that then helps when we're needing to understand the data later, or very practically from the standpoint of probation, overseeing offenders upon release, that kind of thing that they actually know.
What are the domestic abuse related offences, which we haven't known, believe it or not. I mean, I think you know that, but I think most people wouldn't appreciate that. That would be hard to find. And so I think we have to do much more. In relation to making changes, like what you've said, to make sure that data is really clear. I domestic abuse, homicide and suicide, we've made some progress in terms of really coming to terms with those tragedies and trying to learn from them, but there's a whole range of other femicide related crimes that I think we need to do the same.
I think you're right.
What are the domestic abuse related offences, which we haven't known, believe it or not. I mean, I think you know that, but I think most people wouldn't appreciate that. That would be hard to find. And so I think we have to do much more. In relation to making changes, like what you've said, to make sure that data is really clear. I domestic abuse, homicide and suicide, we've made some progress in terms of really coming to terms with those tragedies and trying to learn from them, but there's a whole range of other femicide related crimes that I think we need to do the same.
I think you're right.
14:45
14:45
Jo White
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Jo White
Thank you both for coming in. I have I want to dig into some of the things you've said already without necessarily going over the same the same ground, but the government had a very well publicised and ambitious aim to halve violence against women and girls in a decade. Is it clear to either of you when that decade started?
14:46
14:46
14:46
14:46
14:46
14:46
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yes, it always does. You know, any time, as you all will know, anytime there's any shuffling of key ministerial posts, it creates disruption for this strategy. It tends, you know, the day to day responsibility it feels very much sits with between Home Office and MoJ, with the safeguarding minister, the Minister for victims and those posts. I think the Home Office Safeguarding Minister, there's we've just we're on our third. And for the MoJ on our second and a bit of some of the same people coming back, which. But I suppose the larger point to me is that while day to day, those really exceptional leaders are help drive the the the work, this.
This needs much more serious elevation and attention to our secretaries of state. And I've. I've seen the difference over time when that can happen and what what will happen as a result, and I. Again, it may be that secretaries of State attend inter-ministerial groups on this strategy. They may include this strategy in some of their discussions. I'm not fully aware of those if that is happening, but I would say just in terms of the heft of government, we really need to see much more. I was delighted, for example, when I saw our Secretary of State for Health and Social Care in her conference speech speak about a public health approach to domestic abuse.
That's what we need. We need to see that that really helps people like Ellie and I when we're interacting within government, to push things ahead and really drive accountability. So so there needs to be some kind of elevation. I would say , having seen the Prime Minister talk so clearly about rough sleeping, for example, yesterday, I mean, I really want to see some equivalent leadership on this strategy. There are obvious ties to homelessness. There's obvious ties to these, this strategy and other strategies within government. But, you know, I understand that there'll be a ten year plan for Britain that the Prime Minister will be publishing and sharing with us and the New year.
And absolutely, violence against women and girls must not, should, but really must be in it. So we need elevation.
This needs much more serious elevation and attention to our secretaries of state. And I've. I've seen the difference over time when that can happen and what what will happen as a result, and I. Again, it may be that secretaries of State attend inter-ministerial groups on this strategy. They may include this strategy in some of their discussions. I'm not fully aware of those if that is happening, but I would say just in terms of the heft of government, we really need to see much more. I was delighted, for example, when I saw our Secretary of State for Health and Social Care in her conference speech speak about a public health approach to domestic abuse.
That's what we need. We need to see that that really helps people like Ellie and I when we're interacting within government, to push things ahead and really drive accountability. So so there needs to be some kind of elevation. I would say , having seen the Prime Minister talk so clearly about rough sleeping, for example, yesterday, I mean, I really want to see some equivalent leadership on this strategy. There are obvious ties to homelessness. There's obvious ties to these, this strategy and other strategies within government. But, you know, I understand that there'll be a ten year plan for Britain that the Prime Minister will be publishing and sharing with us and the New year.
And absolutely, violence against women and girls must not, should, but really must be in it. So we need elevation.
14:49
14:49
14:50
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. I would broadly echo what Nicole has said on that. I think with the previous prime minister, when the strategy was launched, it was very clearly part of the government's mission. And I think there was a lot of attention and excitement and hope for what the strategy would achieve. It is hard to see that similar level reflected at the moment, but I do think there's a new opportunity with the new Prime Minister to outline. Actually, we can do this. We should be doing this, but also to start looking more broadly, actually , about actually, how do we measure that?
Who's accountable, where should it be owned? And to make sure it's reflecting all the vulnerable groups of women as well. I have had positive engagement with the new ministers, but I do also think Nicole is very right to say, actually, when we get new ministers, they understandably have a whole new brief, a whole new area to commit to. So I think there's a chance and a moment where we can hopefully see what that will look like in the new administration.
Who's accountable, where should it be owned? And to make sure it's reflecting all the vulnerable groups of women as well. I have had positive engagement with the new ministers, but I do also think Nicole is very right to say, actually, when we get new ministers, they understandably have a whole new brief, a whole new area to commit to. So I think there's a chance and a moment where we can hopefully see what that will look like in the new administration.
14:51
14:51
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I stood on that advisory board , and it's it's useful and that many of the right people are sitting around the table. It's there are limitations. And that in. With such a broad strategy, how could you imagine having over 200 actions and kind of without having more, more metrics, more transparency in front of you? It's, it's, it's not a governing board. I appreciate that. It's a board that is very much set out with a term of reference to kind of advise to. To, to have some element of accountability because of the expertise in the room. But it's, it's very hard to do that if you don't have information.
The papers, for example, are sent out a week in advance. You know, we've a lot of the the kind of broad discussions can be about one subject at a time. Well, if you're only meeting over a quarter, once a quarter, you're not covering. This is such an ambitious strategy that it requires, I would say, more needing of more subgroups, more of a clarity for each government department who are leading on particular actions, their own, their own kind of way of governing their actions so that people can, you know, you can have an amazing expert domestic abuse service, for example, but they may not be expert in all areas, but could be very useful in some areas of this strategy.
So there needs to be a broadening of what that good governance looks like. And I would say that could be improved. And again, one of my frustrations has been, you know, feeling that we could be going so much further, faster if we had some governance that we could lean on and that I could understand in each and every department who's leading, where's the activity? Who is it I'm getting in touch with and helping signpost and very importantly, get survivor voice into in terms of the kind of planning and of, of those actions. But that's just not what I see.
The papers, for example, are sent out a week in advance. You know, we've a lot of the the kind of broad discussions can be about one subject at a time. Well, if you're only meeting over a quarter, once a quarter, you're not covering. This is such an ambitious strategy that it requires, I would say, more needing of more subgroups, more of a clarity for each government department who are leading on particular actions, their own, their own kind of way of governing their actions so that people can, you know, you can have an amazing expert domestic abuse service, for example, but they may not be expert in all areas, but could be very useful in some areas of this strategy.
So there needs to be a broadening of what that good governance looks like. And I would say that could be improved. And again, one of my frustrations has been, you know, feeling that we could be going so much further, faster if we had some governance that we could lean on and that I could understand in each and every department who's leading, where's the activity? Who is it I'm getting in touch with and helping signpost and very importantly, get survivor voice into in terms of the kind of planning and of, of those actions. But that's just not what I see.
14:53
14:54
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
In some cases, yes. I mean, in some of the the kinds of things in the strategy which will ultimately result in frontline service delivery by charities, they will likely have quite a lot of survivor input, maybe be led by and run by survivors. But and I have definitely brought, you know, we have something called our voices matter at the DAC where we the Domestic Abuse Commissioner's office, where we have over 1000 people who we communicate with and engage with. And we've brought some of those voices as much as we can into government, but we have very limited resource for that.
We have one full time equivalent worker who's able to help us with that primarily and that. So again, further investment and that is needed. I don't know if you had other things to say.
We have one full time equivalent worker who's able to help us with that primarily and that. So again, further investment and that is needed. I don't know if you had other things to say.
14:54
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So when it comes to the advisory board, I think it's a really good idea that they should bring together some kind of accountability mechanism for the strategy. But when it comes to the modern slavery sector being represented on that board and my office being represented on that board, so far we haven't been. And I think the consequence of that is twofold. I think there's a whole voiceless section of the women who are affected by sexual exploitation that aren't being heard at that advisory board. And I think it also means that when policy could be co-created, collaborated on, and actually be better as as a result of it, we're missing those opportunities.
Now. I have pushed the Home Office a lot on this point. They assure me that the advisory board will have a rotating membership, and everyone will be heard on it eventually, but I'm really struggling with the transparency around it, how that will happen, what order they're going to discuss topics on that are really, really important. And I see that actually as quite a basic ask and just a fundamental thing that we need to understand in terms of who is being heard in this full strategy, and actually, what are we achieving against the things that are laid out in it.
So for me, I think the advisory board hopefully will be expanded, but at the moment it isn't working in a way that really represents the survivors of modern slavery.
Now. I have pushed the Home Office a lot on this point. They assure me that the advisory board will have a rotating membership, and everyone will be heard on it eventually, but I'm really struggling with the transparency around it, how that will happen, what order they're going to discuss topics on that are really, really important. And I see that actually as quite a basic ask and just a fundamental thing that we need to understand in terms of who is being heard in this full strategy, and actually, what are we achieving against the things that are laid out in it.
So for me, I think the advisory board hopefully will be expanded, but at the moment it isn't working in a way that really represents the survivors of modern slavery.
14:56
14:56
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it's to if you look at the diversity and the range of work in this strategy as it's laid out, you would have to immediately think, if you wanted to achieve something where government and civil servants are getting the best advice and information you would immediately recognise, you would. You couldn't ever achieve that in one quarterly meeting. You'd have to have some kind of structure across departments where you could see, you could really understand where you're gaining that expertise. There are there are with within government, there are many, you know, you mentioned drive or depots.
There are working groups. So I'm not saying that there aren't, but they're they're fairly disparate and I'm not sure they're feeding in in the way to decision makers. How well are we achieving these parts of the strategy or not? And so yes, there's room room for improvement there.
There are working groups. So I'm not saying that there aren't, but they're they're fairly disparate and I'm not sure they're feeding in in the way to decision makers. How well are we achieving these parts of the strategy or not? And so yes, there's room room for improvement there.
14:57
Jo White
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Jo White
Thank you. That's just fine. One final question. So you talked about the you know, this is obviously a huge cross-departmental thing as indicated by how many people how many? Yeah. How many people we've got here. Which which departments are really prioritizing the actions needed for this government's ambition? And are there any departments that could be doing more?
14:57
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Mind if I do? I mean, I've I've already given a very clear indication of, I think, Department of Health and Social Care. I've been really, you know, very pleased in terms of understanding what their commitments are, understanding where they are on them and how much money they're investing, the kinds of things they're doing above and beyond what's in the strategy already. So I feel that's been a really good example. The Department of Education, you know, if you put aside the schools work, we've already talked about their answer in the strategy to how children who are victims of domestic abuse, who we've defined as victims in their own right, their answer to the kinds of services that they will get is look at families first broadly.
So look at the kind of, you know, billion plus of funding that we were putting into, which is essentially how we'll re redesign and implement children's social care. Well, that's not answering the question very specifically. So to me, there's much more that the Department of Education could be doing to step up and be clear about what that is achieving. That is a huge, huge priority in terms of for children and domestic abuse, given the prevalence. So so, you know, I would put, you know, home office in, you know, kind of well underway in terms of broadly some of their commitments.
But again, there's some real hiccups along the way. And in terms of the protection order rollout, some of the, the key strands there, MoJ, I'm sure will come to, but I feel like with early release and with some of the pressures on our system, some of their commitments are getting overshadowed and not being implemented. Same with DWP. So that's what I mean about looking at something where we could say, what's the accountability on these actions? Who's making sure that they're getting done? That is the urgent sense of urgency that I feel. So it is having to face up to another huge one, which I'm sure will come to is DCMs, which is all the kind of online space and harms.
And that I think is, you know, many question marks, many underdeveloped areas, but some progress. You know, it's a mixed it's a mixed picture, isn't it?
So look at the kind of, you know, billion plus of funding that we were putting into, which is essentially how we'll re redesign and implement children's social care. Well, that's not answering the question very specifically. So to me, there's much more that the Department of Education could be doing to step up and be clear about what that is achieving. That is a huge, huge priority in terms of for children and domestic abuse, given the prevalence. So so, you know, I would put, you know, home office in, you know, kind of well underway in terms of broadly some of their commitments.
But again, there's some real hiccups along the way. And in terms of the protection order rollout, some of the, the key strands there, MoJ, I'm sure will come to, but I feel like with early release and with some of the pressures on our system, some of their commitments are getting overshadowed and not being implemented. Same with DWP. So that's what I mean about looking at something where we could say, what's the accountability on these actions? Who's making sure that they're getting done? That is the urgent sense of urgency that I feel. So it is having to face up to another huge one, which I'm sure will come to is DCMs, which is all the kind of online space and harms.
And that I think is, you know, many question marks, many underdeveloped areas, but some progress. You know, it's a mixed it's a mixed picture, isn't it?
15:00
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I would echo actually Nicole's outlined some of the departments that we've had very good engagement with. I think Jess Asato leading the Vawg health work has been hugely helpful. And actually she's very inclusive of understanding all the forms of violence against women and girls that are there and implementing change in the online harm space. We've had good engagement with Dcit and with MoJ. I always find them very collaborative and wanting to listen to victims. I would say taking a step back, the Home Office is presenting quite a challenging message to survivors of sexual exploitation at the moment, because on one hand, they've got the Vawg strategy, which is of course saying that we're here to identify, protect you.
And on the other side, they are introducing credibility assessments for survivors of sexual exploitation in the Immigration and Asylum Bill, which, if survivors have similar accounts to any of other survivors, if they've taken too long to come forward, or if there's any kind of inconsistencies in their accounts, which we know can happen due to trauma, their credibility must be questioned under the new law changes. And the reality is, when I speak to frontline services and survivors, that is the main thing that is impacting on them at the moment. So whilst the government may be doing really good work across government to try and identify them and protect them, we are sending a message to survivors of sexual exploitation, actually that their credibility is going to be questioned, and I think that is undermining for this cohort the trust in the overall strategy and the trust in the hope that government's there to protect and help them.
So whilst it is positive interactions I'm having across government, I don't think I can overlook this harm that's being done in legislation at the moment.
And on the other side, they are introducing credibility assessments for survivors of sexual exploitation in the Immigration and Asylum Bill, which, if survivors have similar accounts to any of other survivors, if they've taken too long to come forward, or if there's any kind of inconsistencies in their accounts, which we know can happen due to trauma, their credibility must be questioned under the new law changes. And the reality is, when I speak to frontline services and survivors, that is the main thing that is impacting on them at the moment. So whilst the government may be doing really good work across government to try and identify them and protect them, we are sending a message to survivors of sexual exploitation, actually that their credibility is going to be questioned, and I think that is undermining for this cohort the trust in the overall strategy and the trust in the hope that government's there to protect and help them.
So whilst it is positive interactions I'm having across government, I don't think I can overlook this harm that's being done in legislation at the moment.
15:02
15:02
Karen Bradley
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Karen Bradley
It's interesting because we fought for so long for victims to be listened to and believed, and that is something that, you know, training through college of policing and everything else has all been about victims being believed to have the confidence to come forward. So it's worrying what you say. And I think, Nicole, you make very powerful arguments for perhaps ownership of this to be from a different department, from the Home Office and Cabinet Office or number ten, maybe I'm going to move on to Anna Dixon and continuing the financial side of things and government leadership.
15:02
Jo White
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Jo White
Yeah. And just one quick follow up on cross-departmental working. Thank you, chair, and thank you for inviting me to guest from the Public Accounts Committee. We looked at the last government's vawg strategy, and one of our conclusions was the Home Office failed to secure the full support of other government departments. Are we at risk of history repeating itself, Dame Nicole?
15:03
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think yes, we are partly, you know, again, it's it's somewhat of a mixed picture. I'll lead with a good example in this strategy. It didn't say how much steps to safety at the Department of Health would commit, and they committed far more than I thought they would when I read this strategy a year ago. So. So that's a positive. You know, I didn't mention Mhclg a moment ago, and that was a huge oversight because of part four of the Domestic Abuse Act. You know, there is some serious resource and commitment to accommodation based duties, and there's been a real willingness in that department to see those intersections between domestic abuse and homelessness.
And so I should have said that earlier, but but you're exactly right. If you look at these actions and ask yourself for any that would require resource, well, what's the resource? You wouldn't know. And I still wouldn't know most of the time. Most of the actions except for for that health report and so on work. So absolutely, we need to see and if you look at the actual kind of financial picture of funding for specialist services, which traditionally comes from pots of money, but mainly through MoJ, through police and crime commissioners. The fact that they're being abolished creates a lot of uncertainty.
You know, devolution, which we may come to, presents a huge amount of possibility, but it also creates some uncertainty and difficulty if it's not done in the right way for wiring in the aspects of domestic abuse and Vogue services. So there are real uncertainties there. And, you know, a stable part of that picture is the duty created in the Domestic Abuse Act for accommodation based services at Mhclg. But it is still absolutely the case that on on the kind of front line, those time scales of funding are still very short. The trajectories are short, and I'm not clear what each government department is contributing financially, and I have asked for that.
I have absolutely asked for that because at the very least, what we should be doing is understanding, say, within families first or within changing lives or within all sorts of government funds. What we are achieving for vogue and domestic abuse. And the question again, I don't have the answer to that, and we should be able to have the answer to that.
And so I should have said that earlier, but but you're exactly right. If you look at these actions and ask yourself for any that would require resource, well, what's the resource? You wouldn't know. And I still wouldn't know most of the time. Most of the actions except for for that health report and so on work. So absolutely, we need to see and if you look at the actual kind of financial picture of funding for specialist services, which traditionally comes from pots of money, but mainly through MoJ, through police and crime commissioners. The fact that they're being abolished creates a lot of uncertainty.
You know, devolution, which we may come to, presents a huge amount of possibility, but it also creates some uncertainty and difficulty if it's not done in the right way for wiring in the aspects of domestic abuse and Vogue services. So there are real uncertainties there. And, you know, a stable part of that picture is the duty created in the Domestic Abuse Act for accommodation based services at Mhclg. But it is still absolutely the case that on on the kind of front line, those time scales of funding are still very short. The trajectories are short, and I'm not clear what each government department is contributing financially, and I have asked for that.
I have absolutely asked for that because at the very least, what we should be doing is understanding, say, within families first or within changing lives or within all sorts of government funds. What we are achieving for vogue and domestic abuse. And the question again, I don't have the answer to that, and we should be able to have the answer to that.
15:06
Jo White
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Jo White
It seems. I mean, one of the things the Home Office committed to in their Treasury minute to us was firstly to establish across Whitehall team to monitor delivery of the board commitments. It seems that if that were meeting and at least reporting publicly either to Parliament or to the Vawg Strategy Advisory Board, that would at least go some way to meeting your desire to know whether the 200 plus actions are indeed being actioned. Would that if they were doing that and reporting from it, would that go some way to the transparency you're looking for?
15:06
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Yeah, if there was if there was, there may be something that ministers are sharing with each other. And seeing that I don't see. So I concede that is could very well be the case. But the point is we need to see we I believe that needs to be much more transparent, number one, because it helps us understand where we are. But but, you know, also really importantly for local areas who are trying to get this right, they must understand what they what is being done that will ultimately contribute to what they're trying to achieve on the ground.
And without knowing that, you can look at these examples and some of these commitments and think, well, when is that going to happen? Is there funding attached to it? Well, if your answer is, I don't know, it's not helping the planning and sharing that that kind of ambition with the rest of the world. Basically.
And without knowing that, you can look at these examples and some of these commitments and think, well, when is that going to happen? Is there funding attached to it? Well, if your answer is, I don't know, it's not helping the planning and sharing that that kind of ambition with the rest of the world. Basically.
15:07
Jo White
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Jo White
One of the other things that we called for was sort of a joint spending review bid. I don't think that actually happened. And one of the challenges, therefore, is understanding how much is being spent to deliver the Vawg strategy. From your perspective, perhaps, Elena, have you seen any increase in government funding for services related to modern slavery? And has the has there been any increased certainty? My understanding was moving towards three year commissioning for some of the brilliant, voluntary and community sector organisations that support victims and survivors? Is that coming through at all.
15:08
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
With the Modern Slavery Victim care contract that has been retendered at the moment, and I think the government will soon announce who will receive that. So that is welcome. We have seen a big increase in the number of victims of modern slavery, which does put extra pressure on that service. And as women and girls are moving through it more quickly, what I often find when I'm on the front line with services is that it's charitably funded, safe houses that actually we don't see as the government or in the official statistics that are looking after women and girls long term and providing that specialist care and that specialist support.
So whilst I welcome the Modern slavery victim care contract continuing, I don't think we're fully understanding actually the need and the prevalence of harm out there. And as I mentioned earlier, when we've cut police funding to dedicated modern slavery human trafficking teams, on one hand, we're continuing to support women once the harms happened. But on the other hand, we're not doing enough to prevent harm happening and hold the perpetrators to account. So I don't think we're seeing it as the whole. And I do see actually that loss specialist teams actually is a very detrimental thing to these women.
So whilst I welcome the Modern slavery victim care contract continuing, I don't think we're fully understanding actually the need and the prevalence of harm out there. And as I mentioned earlier, when we've cut police funding to dedicated modern slavery human trafficking teams, on one hand, we're continuing to support women once the harms happened. But on the other hand, we're not doing enough to prevent harm happening and hold the perpetrators to account. So I don't think we're seeing it as the whole. And I do see actually that loss specialist teams actually is a very detrimental thing to these women.
15:09
15:09
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
There's some there's some parts of the strategy which outline increases the safe accommodation. I think it had been roughly 19 million additional from previous years. That's because it's a statutory duty. Through MoJ. There was a 2% increase for police and crime commissioners for the funding for victims. That was outlined, I think is a little over £1 billion in the strategy. But but that was that was for all victims of crime, not just violence against women and girls. So there's obviously other victims of crime who need support. And it was over three years. And so it wasn't if you factor in all of the kind of real time increases, it wasn't really an increase as such, although it was set out as a 2% increase.
There's, you know, helpline funding out of the Home Office, the drive funding that was mentioned earlier, there are some things that we know of, but but what I have wanted to try to get to the bottom of is those larger pots of funding, like Families First or other funds within government, to understand they're named in the strategy, but it's not very clear what they're achieving and how for violence against women and girls. And that needs real looking at. I have asked for that detailed breakdown, and we should be able to see that again. It helps trusts and foundations.
It helps all sorts of ways that people can collaborate and do their part and play their part in achieving these aims. So we need to see that.
There's, you know, helpline funding out of the Home Office, the drive funding that was mentioned earlier, there are some things that we know of, but but what I have wanted to try to get to the bottom of is those larger pots of funding, like Families First or other funds within government, to understand they're named in the strategy, but it's not very clear what they're achieving and how for violence against women and girls. And that needs real looking at. I have asked for that detailed breakdown, and we should be able to see that again. It helps trusts and foundations.
It helps all sorts of ways that people can collaborate and do their part and play their part in achieving these aims. So we need to see that.
15:11
Jo White
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Jo White
Unfortunately, it seems that we can't public accounts by departments. So we look at all of the departmental accounts, but with a cross-government strategy. It's very hard to follow the money and actually find out what has got spent on these items. So I think that is something that perhaps we need to push a bit harder for. AM I handing over for five to somebody else? Yes. Catherine, one short follow up, the the having multiyear.
15:11
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Settlements is so important for organisations to be able to plan for their future and ensure that they are able to have clear strategies with the uncertainty, with what things will look like post police and crime commissioners, are you concerned that that ability to plan into the future does mean that organisations face the same uncertainty they faced when it was constantly just funding year by year?
15:12
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I mean, when I was first slightly panicked about that. But I do understand there is there is clarity within government that the that that transition needs a very careful planning for the victim services part of that. So I don't think that's something the government is unaware of or people aren't planning for. But I still think inevitably it is going to create difficulty, because what we were looking forward to was this idea of more multiyear settlements. And then the and I'm not I'm kind of agnostic about the decision about police and crime commissioners, but the the point is that it does create now disruption again.
And until we know some of the the really key decisions in relation to police reform, how the government may or may not implement a duty to collaborate for the funding of domestic abuse and sexual violence services, which stemmed from the Victim and Prisoners Act. That's still not been implemented, partly because of all of these changes. Until we know a bit more about the devolution, you know, planning, it is very up in the air still. Again, you know, so I feel that there's a lot to gain in some of these plans, but we have to be very, very careful about the safeguards of in these transitions, how victim services are, are planned for and who is responsible at the, you know, as these decisions are more and more being taken locally, there's some really great, you know, mayoral authorities and other local authorities have.
There's some really good. Practice out there that really speaks to your your last inquiry in 2025 about buying for provision, about transparency of how money is being spent at the local level. There's there's, there are good things to hold on to, but they have to be planned into devolution and they have to be planned in, in some of these transitions and be very explicit for that to happen. I'm afraid so. Yeah, there's safeguards are needed.
And until we know some of the the really key decisions in relation to police reform, how the government may or may not implement a duty to collaborate for the funding of domestic abuse and sexual violence services, which stemmed from the Victim and Prisoners Act. That's still not been implemented, partly because of all of these changes. Until we know a bit more about the devolution, you know, planning, it is very up in the air still. Again, you know, so I feel that there's a lot to gain in some of these plans, but we have to be very, very careful about the safeguards of in these transitions, how victim services are, are planned for and who is responsible at the, you know, as these decisions are more and more being taken locally, there's some really great, you know, mayoral authorities and other local authorities have.
There's some really good. Practice out there that really speaks to your your last inquiry in 2025 about buying for provision, about transparency of how money is being spent at the local level. There's there's, there are good things to hold on to, but they have to be planned into devolution and they have to be planned in, in some of these transitions and be very explicit for that to happen. I'm afraid so. Yeah, there's safeguards are needed.
15:14
15:14
Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Thank you, chair, and thank you both for coming in. Spending the afternoon today prior to my appointment to this select committee, I sat on the Justice Select Committee. I'm acutely aware from both sides that there are concerns that have been raised regarding funding being primarily used and allocated to criminal justice responses, rather than being used to maybe achieve the structural changes that we believe are needed to tackle the causes of of org. Do you agree? Both of you.
15:15
15:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's hard to tell where the funding and the attention is going across those areas. I don't think we should underestimate the scale of the structural change we're trying to make, though. When I look at the research we're seeing on rising sexual exploitation in the UK, you can go on freely accessible websites which have punters talking about how the girl was clearly trafficked, drugged, exploited and they still chose to rape her and not report that harm to the police. So I do welcome the level of ambition in the Vawg strategy, but I am nervous still that it won't actually get to what we're trying to challenge there and what we're really trying to stop occurring.
So from my side of things, it doesn't feel like we are truly managing to tackle the criminal justice system and the response there. And there's still big challenges. And when it comes to looking across the action plan underpinning the strategy, I look at it and I look at how is it going to help the survivors that I hear from every day. And whilst there's some progress that's been made, particularly for children when it comes to challenging some of the harms that's happening to adult victims of sexual exploitation, I'm not sure that actually it is going as far as I'd like it to, as quickly as I would like it to.
So from my side of things, it doesn't feel like we are truly managing to tackle the criminal justice system and the response there. And there's still big challenges. And when it comes to looking across the action plan underpinning the strategy, I look at it and I look at how is it going to help the survivors that I hear from every day. And whilst there's some progress that's been made, particularly for children when it comes to challenging some of the harms that's happening to adult victims of sexual exploitation, I'm not sure that actually it is going as far as I'd like it to, as quickly as I would like it to.
15:16
15:16
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I think it is. I genuinely believe this. It's got to be both things. You know, we've got to have a rigorous criminal justice response that we are confident in. And I do think. That victims really can benefit from in that first contact with the police, no matter what happens, really, in terms of the criminal justice response, the kind of ability they have to signpost to, to give a good response, a believing response, and to help signpost and connect victims very early to people in their community who can help them as well. And that's one element of an early intervention.
And it requires there's so much about the criminal justice system that requires improvement. But again, I think in this strategy, if you think of the kind of key elements of where people go for contact at the start, you know, children in schools, youth clubs, online spaces, that is a very mixed picture in terms of how well we're progressing. Presumably, these are the kinds of things that you would really like to see much more emphasis on. But health, again, we could do, you know, much more beyond GP pathways. We could do much more in mental health spaces.
There's so much, you know, this this strategy, when I say it's comprehensive, it's not comprehensive is in I think it's got absolutely in everything in it. It's it's it's a good start in terms of some serious effort on the prevention and early intervention space. But it's, it's, it's certainly not getting us as far as we need to be. I hope that answers your question. I'm not quite sure if I did.
And it requires there's so much about the criminal justice system that requires improvement. But again, I think in this strategy, if you think of the kind of key elements of where people go for contact at the start, you know, children in schools, youth clubs, online spaces, that is a very mixed picture in terms of how well we're progressing. Presumably, these are the kinds of things that you would really like to see much more emphasis on. But health, again, we could do, you know, much more beyond GP pathways. We could do much more in mental health spaces.
There's so much, you know, this this strategy, when I say it's comprehensive, it's not comprehensive is in I think it's got absolutely in everything in it. It's it's it's a good start in terms of some serious effort on the prevention and early intervention space. But it's, it's, it's certainly not getting us as far as we need to be. I hope that answers your question. I'm not quite sure if I did.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Well, we have a network. And so what we do in every single report that we publish, we would that would be fully informed by kind of lived experience through that network or through seeking views and all sorts of local networks that exist already. We bring people to government. So, you know, in roundtables, we did a survivor summit, which included all government departments and civil servants in those departments as well as ministers. So, you know, for more exposure to very particular topics within government, we try in all of our consultation responses, a lot of a lot of the just the day to day work, the kind of fabric of, of the organisation is doing that and is about that.
So I try not to think of myself as the only voice, but a bit of a conduit to quite a diverse range of, of people who want to speak to decision makers. So we do that, you know, early release is a great example. Recently talking individually to many, many victims. And what are they hearing? What are they hearing from probation, for example, and then bringing those conversations directly into my discussions with ministers, civil servants. So it's a pretty diverse range of of methods and ways, but you can never feel you're doing that enough. I think.
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So I try not to think of myself as the only voice, but a bit of a conduit to quite a diverse range of, of people who want to speak to decision makers. So we do that, you know, early release is a great example. Recently talking individually to many, many victims. And what are they hearing? What are they hearing from probation, for example, and then bringing those conversations directly into my discussions with ministers, civil servants. So it's a pretty diverse range of of methods and ways, but you can never feel you're doing that enough. I think.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Similarly, I host a summit bringing together 15 lived experience advisory panels from across the UK and say to survivors, what do you feel about the strategy? What do you feel about the government? What do you feel about the legislation at the moment? And do my very best to take that to ministers and officials and amplify their voices. But I am deeply conscious of the fact that actually, I think the main value comes from policy makers hearing from survivors directly, not with me in the middle. So I have asked government and ministers to attend the summits themselves, and to hear directly from survivors about their experiences.
Because to your point about criminal justice outcomes, it's in those meetings and those convening points that you hear from survivors that actually police still treated them like in some cases, they were criminals rather than victims. They were treated as though they were making bad choices, not actually that they were women being sexually exploited and held against their will. So I do think there's a lot we need to do to improve survivor engagement. And I would actually hope that the survivor panel would be convened by government and ministers themselves, so they could hear directly from those women.
Because to your point about criminal justice outcomes, it's in those meetings and those convening points that you hear from survivors that actually police still treated them like in some cases, they were criminals rather than victims. They were treated as though they were making bad choices, not actually that they were women being sexually exploited and held against their will. So I do think there's a lot we need to do to improve survivor engagement. And I would actually hope that the survivor panel would be convened by government and ministers themselves, so they could hear directly from those women.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We've had probably maybe a slightly I mean, we've had a fairly decent, obviously, engagement with ministers in some of the activities that I just described. So I would I don't want people to think that that ministers are not. In fact, I, you know, I my experience has been quite engaged. So obviously there's maybe a bit of a mixed picture there.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And my, my last question in this section, just moving on a little bit from the examples, but do you have any examples of work from up and down the country that perhaps have been good at preventing vawg and, and that you think should be maybe adapted nationally or used replicated in other parts of the country?
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
There's always really great examples across the country in terms of, you know, pockets of really excellent practice. One thing we did a couple of years ago is we organised, we called it the Festival of Practice because we wanted to show local decision makers, local commissioners of services, what the best, best responses were to domestic abuse through schools work, through family court, through health counseling, all of the above. We could community groups, religious leaders. We wanted to really showcase all of that. So yes, there are there are good practices. But I think in prevention, when you think about what we will typically all be thinking of or, you know, schools work, work in communities.
Yes, there are great there are great examples, but very often they don't get the kind of elevation and the kind of rollout that you would that that I might expect, partly because there'll The kind of. rollout that you would that that I might expect. Partly because there'll be questions about. Well, have they been fully. evaluated and have they had some threshold of.
Yes, there are great there are great examples, but very often they don't get the kind of elevation and the kind of rollout that you would that that I might expect, partly because there'll The kind of. rollout that you would that that I might expect. Partly because there'll be questions about. Well, have they been fully. evaluated and have they had some threshold of.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Which is probably really. unrealistic for a small or regional or local initiative. And so we get a lot of holding back on the basis of that type of argument. And, and, but on the flip side of that, a lot of the government funding will. eventually at the local be spent on some of those things. But there's there is, I believe, in Department of education is a great example where we need a much more rigorous kind of community of practice about those kinds of.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Because they're so varied and dispersed in so many places. And I think we do a lot of recreating of the wheel without giving that kind of clear inspiration and guidance from some of what we know. A lot of what government hears about are more from second tier organizations. They're not hearing those examples. And so I think both of us probably bring into the room those examples as much as we possibly can,
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
In their Vawg strategy, their version of it, they explicitly. mention the harm that sexual exploitation and modern slavery does because they've named the harm and they've acknowledged it's there. You see a lot of good programmes coming from the government, such as routes out, where they try and. prevent sexual exploitation happening on the streets of Scotland before it occurs, which is really positive. So I think there's a lesson there in terms of. acknowledging actually what's going on, and then we can actually act to prevent it. In Northern Ireland, I work with a Appg there and actually they're really good at.
acknowledging how the online world is. facilitating some of this harm. And I do think in that way they're far more forward thinking sometimes than we are. collectively out of Westminster, because they notice the harm that's happening online. They acknowledge the trafficking, and then they look at what they can do about it. And from my visits to Wales, when I go see them, actually, they've truly embraced. When you go into meetings with them, the kind of public health response that we've seen in this fall.
acknowledging how the online world is. facilitating some of this harm. And I do think in that way they're far more forward thinking sometimes than we are. collectively out of Westminster, because they notice the harm that's happening online. They acknowledge the trafficking, and then they look at what they can do about it. And from my visits to Wales, when I go see them, actually, they've truly embraced. When you go into meetings with them, the kind of public health response that we've seen in this fall.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Actually there are some good examples we can learn from. And if I, if I may, to just one one follow up. Come back to Dame Nicole's comment about government, perhaps not looking at this as quickly or as robustly as they should until further down the line to both of you, just a yes or no. I'm sure I know the answer, but as a former police.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And and the. earliest effective intervention, the better Wales does have. I mean, you I felt it's probably Wales has an act which is much more kind of giving that sense that everyone has a. responsibility to ask and act within whatever service you're in or whatever kind of response you're giving. They do a lot of work with the police in early help, early signs of maybe people, young people who are not. You wouldn't feel comfortable calling them a perpetrator of abuse, but they're showing early signs and, you know, really, really having a joined up approach in relation to that.
They do much more schools work, you know, in your clear, comprehensive schools work in your your report in 2025. You talked about buying for services. Well, in Wales, they have a provision of. supporting buy in for services across Wales. So there are, you know, now that you're mentioning Wales, there's a really good. examples of that .
They do much more schools work, you know, in your clear, comprehensive schools work in your your report in 2025. You talked about buying for services. Well, in Wales, they have a provision of. supporting buy in for services across Wales. So there are, you know, now that you're mentioning Wales, there's a really good. examples of that .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I know we're talking about things in silo, and you've got Nicole and me here, but often these women, as you well know, have. experienced multiple forms of harm and abuse over their lifetimes. They're very complex needs, and it's hard. Once someone has suffered from child abuse and domestic abuse, they can often end up being sexually exploited. So ideally, we want to stop any of those things happening because actually the recovery. journey is so challenging for those women and .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Approach to tackling violence against women and girls overall? So care for victims of modern slavery is delivered at the moment by the Salvation Army, and they. provide the support structure, which is very welcome. I would like to see in. devolution a drive to make sure that victims of modern slavery aren't forgotten in that, because far too often when I go visit. fantastic services or safe houses or even local police.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I'm meeting people that happen to be. hugely passionate about stopping this harm from happening and holding the perpetrators to account. And if they move on, that whole system in that local area can not crumble, but can dissipate and disappear. I don't think our response at the moment is. systemically embedded in local areas enough. And so with devolution, I would very much like that to change and for us to be far clearer about how. systems wrap care around survivors. I do see great examples of multi-agency working saying Nottingham or when I go visit Wales, but is that something we should be looking at across the board?
How do we embed that in some of the changes that are coming with devolution? But also I think there's a back to the data point. I would really like there to continue to be some kind of national join up. So we. understand the scale of harm that's going on rather than local areas, which does happen at the moment, have their own.
How do we embed that in some of the changes that are coming with devolution? But also I think there's a back to the data point. I would really like there to continue to be some kind of national join up. So we. understand the scale of harm that's going on rather than local areas, which does happen at the moment, have their own.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I don't know if we can devolve that decision to local areas. I don't think the thinking or the policy thought has gone into it yet to see how that would actually end up working in practice. But what I do see is actually where local areas take the lead and wrap care around survivors in the way that they know best. It works. fantastically well, but for me, it is still too reliant on people that just happen to be hugely committed to this area, rather than us asking every local authority to have a modern slavery. coordinator or every police force to have a specialised individual in it who knows their first responder organisation, who knows how to act in a trauma informed way, and who knows.
actually what they can do with the CPS to take forward the criminal justice process? It's too much of a mixed bag at the moment, depending on where you are in England and if the devolution process helps to improve that, that's welcome,
actually what they can do with the CPS to take forward the criminal justice process? It's too much of a mixed bag at the moment, depending on where you are in England and if the devolution process helps to improve that, that's welcome,
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
It's slightly different to, I think, what Nicole will go on to say in the Salvation Army, do work across the country and. provide care for individuals. So I think the Home Office already have quite a good idea, actually, of what the safe houses are doing on that side of things and how many. survivors are entering them. I think for me, it's about better join up at a local area. Of course, we'll touch upon the duty to collaborate, but in terms of actually where. multi-agency partnerships are happening, that is when we're doing the best work in terms of.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Accommodation based duty, which was established in the Domestic Abuse Act. So I would say that domestic abuse and a lot of these issues, there are real test of. devolution and therefore they have to be. understood and wired in from the start. They can't be an afterthought. How will we figure out how to do this after? They have to be a good test for us about that.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Making sure that there's some strong. clarity role in national government and some of that delivery. What are the. objectives that have to be met when that. devolution takes place? What are the strings that will be attached to some of that devolved decision making? I think is really, really important.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
They often are quite absent because they've halved in size in the recent years. And so often people who were leading on some things that relate to these issues and icbs aren't aren't in post anymore, or people don't really know. And they're most areas I've been to recently will say, yes, our ICB is kind of looking forward to contributing, but they're just settling down now after all this change. And so again, we need to, you know, areas do say back to me when I say, would you still want this duty? How do you want it? They say, yes, yes we do.
I think it will help us, but we a duty is only going to be as good as kind of the planned provision of funding. And we can only do what we can do with what we've got. And, and so I think at that local authority area that, you know, the combined authority will be able to help or the, the I mean, in those areas where that will be the way things are constructed, though not all areas I know will be. But I guess that's the whole point is. devolution needs to answer the. question at what level will the strategic planning be happening?
At what level will the decisions be made and how will they be made about this pooling of budgets for these types of.
I think it will help us, but we a duty is only going to be as good as kind of the planned provision of funding. And we can only do what we can do with what we've got. And, and so I think at that local authority area that, you know, the combined authority will be able to help or the, the I mean, in those areas where that will be the way things are constructed, though not all areas I know will be. But I guess that's the whole point is. devolution needs to answer the. question at what level will the strategic planning be happening?
At what level will the decisions be made and how will they be made about this pooling of budgets for these types of.
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
And that's not all set out yet. Makes it a little bit more difficult. But I suppose because you don't have the answer to this, who would you think would be best placed to. scrutinise violence against women and girls services performance locally once these policing and crime. commissioners go and. And would there be .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
For. survivors and specialist organisations in this. Does that mean some of the. Some of the paper that I have published, it sets out kind of. What are some of the the safeguards that are needed and, and some of the. flexibility needed because every area is a bit different. But also what are the the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Or. accountability mechanisms? And one absolutely must be how survivors themselves, the people who these services are set up for will. contribute to. locally in devolution, to how they how they influence that change. And there are some really nice examples of that in some areas. But again, it has to be designed in. We can't just hope that it will happen in all areas, because what will genuinely happen is if we don't design it in now, we'll move more towards a postcode lottery instead of the opposite. So we. That's why we're hoping to, you know, we've. We really want number ten north attention on this in terms of the test for.
devolution so that they can see how this will play out and how they can gain more. ground for both. flexibility at the local level in that decision making, but also the. accountability to making sure that services are there and that they're more.
devolution so that they can see how this will play out and how they can gain more. ground for both. flexibility at the local level in that decision making, but also the. accountability to making sure that services are there and that they're more.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Whatever new arrangements have been or are going to be made? Not that we've discussed. I mean, maybe the victims commissioner has discussed that. I don't know, but but I haven't had that discussion. It's something that I feel like we really urgently have to make sure is wired in and. understanding how those accountability measures will happen. I'm very, very willing to have that discussion. I think there's other ways to I will publish another paper. We're doing some. roundtables with mayoral authorities right now, and we'll be publishing a little bit more detail from our first paper about how we think that could work.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You've got, no one person at the local level holds all the funding cards you've got. The local authority has some, the PCC has some, you know, county has. council . , more, regional authorities have some. The charities themselves have some because keep in mind, they bring a lot of added value to their areas through trusts and foundations and their own fundraising. And so. Some police and crime commissioners have been really. strategic about getting, establishing a shared vision, really understanding who's bringing what and when and making the most of that. And some do not. You know, it's that's where that's why we are where we are.
So in some ways, I'm kind of, I feel that. devolution is quite an. opportunity if it's done well. And so that's, that's the emphasis we're trying to bring to it right now. It's just in the kind of where we're.
So in some ways, I'm kind of, I feel that. devolution is quite an. opportunity if it's done well. And so that's, that's the emphasis we're trying to bring to it right now. It's just in the kind of where we're.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Making sure that we're resolving some of these long standing issues. And I think for, by and for which I know this committee has been really dedicated to, I'm very dedicated to paying for. provision community based by and for provision, because I think that's where people really go for help who are not so trusting of maybe other.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So very vulnerable people. That's where you've got, I think, a really great. opportunity in the strategic authority in any area or the, the combined authority in any area to, to help plan for that provision. It's hard to do the more local, it's better to think about it in a, in a kind of a place based.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I genuinely think victims of domestic abuse were considered. The trouble is, I think that the the the. It was a feeling between a rock and a hard place where if you're trying to achieve prison spaces and, you know, the prevalence of domestic abuse. And again, we have some trouble with that data. But we know from probation, for example. 30% of the people they. supervise are domestic abuse offenders, whether they were in prison for that or not. I think there was a consideration. And of course, in the early SDS 40, there were some carve outs that related to domestic abuse offences.
And it was there was a choice made not to do that, I believe. I don't know, but I believe it was because of needing to. achieve a. clarity about what release would happen and when and how much that would alleviate prison spaces. And I'm afraid, as I've said many times, that we've been achieving that on the back of.
And it was there was a choice made not to do that, I believe. I don't know, but I believe it was because of needing to. achieve a. clarity about what release would happen and when and how much that would alleviate prison spaces. And I'm afraid, as I've said many times, that we've been achieving that on the back of.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I again. To some degree it it is, you know, do we know for sure? The answer is no. You know, in terms of the data on tagging, we know, again, from the Probation Inspectorate that there has been chronic problems with. tagging in terms of getting them on, making sure that everyone knows they're on not let alone what happens when there are breaches. And so that is that is if we're releasing prisoners early to continue their sentence in the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
I don't believe that. victims would feel very. confident in in the process. So I'll give you an example. I talked to victims. every week, multiple. times who will say things to me like, I've been told that the release date will be sometime in the month of X. I don't I've been told I won't know the date until.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Closer to the time, and I've been told that I won't know those licence. conditions until very close to the time I've had people say to me, they've been told by probation they won't know until just before the date, in the days before. So that doesn't give a lot of assurances to. victims about what's happening when if things are definitely going to happen. So these are the system induced. risks that are not getting .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But I believe they , they could be much more robust. So, for example, the kinds of things victims should expect is that prior to release, there's really clear risk assessment. So the probation. service prior to release will have a pre-release team. They'll have. multi-agency work that is done primarily reaching out to the police, but also children's social care to kind of gather. information about risks for the release, also housing, whereas the person going to live those kinds of things. And I don't believe I've heard really excellent examples in some areas of how that risk assessment is taking place.
I've heard about. referrals to Merak, for example, the multi-agency. So. So making sure the victim and the and the. community is aware of the release, that kind of thing. I don't believe that's as uniform and clear in all probation areas as as it should be the victim.
I've heard about. referrals to Merak, for example, the multi-agency. So. So making sure the victim and the and the. community is aware of the release, that kind of thing. I don't believe that's as uniform and clear in all probation areas as as it should be the victim.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, most victims, if they've had a sentence of a year or more, they've been able to liaise with a victim liaison officer who works at probation. A lot of sentences for these releases are under a year. So we have to. proactively reach out to victims that that probation traditionally has not been reaching out to. So there's lots and lots of gaps about, you know, is that contact happening? And when it is, is the. information clear? And there's a difference sometimes between what I hear is happening. Maybe I'm hearing, you know, there's. 100% of attempts to contact.
But when I ask locally at.
But when I ask locally at.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Very often probation will be they'll be honest with me and say, yes, we have trouble. contacting all victims. In fact, we have quite a lot of trouble. contacting some victims because we never knew how to contact them in the first place, or they've moved, or the information we had was incorrect. So there's a lot of the reality check about how that happens. The government has set up a helpline that's run by victim support. They were supposed to have set up by.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Which would give the ability to have all of your. information at their fingertips. That has not been stood up yet. It should be stood up, I'm told, you know, towards the start of the calendar year, and then we're on to what should further than , than the contact, you know, tagging. exclusion zones. A lot of that just boils down to is the. implementation gap. You know, is it really going to happen as, as, as expected? And so there's, there's a lot there to look .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And the perpetrator will make contact with them, and the victim is then being accused or alleged of not being able to protect herself or her children as a consequence. And therefore, you know, you'll have child protection plans or and so on and so forth. And the fact that we've got children, as now in a definition of being victims of domestic abuse, what do you see? You know, that that sort of situation, in that scenario, what do you see happening and where do you think the.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
From the Department of Education. reminded leads within children's social care that in these early releases, you must be. proactively sharing. information if you have concerns. And that that extends to the adult who's caring for that child as well. So you're exactly right that that risk assessment process that I was. describing is really, really important to make sure that probation is equipped with all of the.
information that is known and children's social care often has, is, has. information that .
information that is known and children's social care often has, is, has. information that .
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
Catherine Atkinson. I've got Margaret and I've got Matt Bishop on this topic as well. Catherine. Thank you. I wanted to ask you questions. about how victims and survivors felt they were, whether they were being adequately consulted upon when it comes to tagging and licensing. conditions with early release. But also more broadly, though, it looks like you've already pointed quite an inconsistent picture. So what do you think needs to.
happen so that what is. intended is actually being done on .
happen so that what is. intended is actually being done on .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
The parts of. probation who run the victim liaison work and government. about what are they hearing from victims and the concerns, what are what is the advice they are actually giving? Because what I hear is a lot of change, a lot of. Variation of advice. So meaning like one person I talked to might say that they will be told some of those provisions. earlier and they're kind of clear, clearer. And then the very next person I talk to will say, well, I've been told, I can't know until the day before or the week before. And so there's got to be some kind of reckoning.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, these releases. On one hand, government says to me, well, if you break these releases down over every area, it's actually not that many in every probation area. But if that's the case, then we should be asking and have some clarity. Well, what is the exact advice you're giving? How many tags, how many exclusions, and give us the granular detail. Then we can't have it both ways where we say, well, it's hard to tell you that, but actually each release and each probationary is only so many. So I do believe we could get to that point and have a greater kind of grip on that.
But I think there is something about.
But I think there is something about.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, I was I was at an event last week and someone from probation in front of the, in, in front of the audience said, you know, we are really struggling. Like we have feel great. responsibility about this. And I, so I do think there's also something about. finding ways that areas the charities in those areas, the kind of the. resources that could be helping.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, are stepping up and making sure that these links are being had. So I feel like it's, it's very operational. There's kind of one thing about setting a policy saying, we will do this. There's something about within MoJ about digging much, much deeper to what are the where are the problems operationally? How do we make those clear and bring those to the fore? My first question, for example, of these.
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
Need to respond to those things in very quick time. You mentioned exclusion zones where where offenders are banned from specific areas. I wanted to ask about. restriction zones where they're actually confined to specific areas, because at the. moment those are only going to be used for high risk sexual and violent offenders. And I wanted to know what your thoughts were as to whether .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We want to first of all, we want to know how many times this is some of the data we've been asking MoJ and government for. With this, tell us about how many tags. Tell us about how many. restriction zones, exclusion zones. Please let us know. And that's a way to. reassure that these are options that are being used and implemented. So I think very quickly we should I think government has said this, that they will.
expect this to extend to other.
expect this to extend to other.
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
Right and make sure there's a lot of transparency about them. Juan, can I ask you about domestic abuse protection orders, which are supposed to be rolled out across criminal, civil and family courts from next month? I wanted to ask how you felt they were going and whether or not they were being able to use positive. requirements and making.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Are not using positive. requirements very much, if at all. Right now they are not being, you know, the ability to apply from family court is not being utilised. So the way that was set out in the Domestic Abuse Act and the ambition of it has not been fully realised. I have not seen the final. evaluation for the pilot. I think that's meant to be published fairly soon.
But. But the Home Office is rolling out the. pilot or rolling, I guess. It's not a pilot, it's rolling out.
But. But the Home Office is rolling out the. pilot or rolling, I guess. It's not a pilot, it's rolling out.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And I'm I'm told that most areas are kind of gearing up to be able to, to apply and achieve a depot. But we have to remember , they're somewhat limited in what they were set out to do. So it's a mixed picture. You know, it hasn't been done in a way that has achieved the full ambition. There's been some legislative changes needed that I think people didn't foresee about offenders having to, you know, not have to give their agreement to some of those positive requirements.
There's some legislative changes about age.
There's some legislative changes about age.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know, I've spoken to that team specifically. They're very. positive about what they have achieved so far. But I think that's the point is we just have to know what where we are in the journey. It's not a full rollout. It's not a full rollout of all of the as it was set out in the Domestic Abuse Act, I would question whether we've invested enough in the positive. requirements and how you build that scaffolding. around the depots. I think that's been under-resourced. And so but yes, are they. probably able to apply in most areas? Yes.
But I .
But I .
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Margaret Mullane
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Margaret Mullane
Nearly there yet. Thank you. Margaret Malone. Thank you chair. I thought that was very moving what you said about the. victims having to think about kind of leaving home, changing their careers. So in light of the kind of probation service and the tax, there was a figure that there was. 5000 people without any tags at all. So I think would you agree that the government is kind of in a quandary where, you know, you've got to have the faith of the victims in what you're trying to do, but you've also you're trying to carry the public with you, aren't you in a decision where you're going to have to do these prison releases?
So with that in mind, do you think that the probation service, not having set up that phone line now, we all know how kind of under pressure they are, but .
So with that in mind, do you think that the probation service, not having set up that phone line now, we all know how kind of under pressure they are, but .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
It became clear that wasn't going to happen. That's a. combination between perhaps probation, but I would say also MoJ and. That. That that that's. really putting it's what it does is it's exposed cracks that were already in the system about. release that we're already inadequate about release full stop. And, and the way I would put it is that the. opportunity the government has a real. opportunity now to build the to, to sort that out. permanently once and for all that those issues have been there for a long time. And we can't just. pretend that they're going to be.
perfect and we have to be rigorous about it. That kind of the impact on the victim has got to be built in. You know, I've had people say to me, well, Nicole, you know, people will always be released. You know, there's always going to be people released. Well, yeah. And it was never safely planned, you know, then either. And so you can't then layer on an early release and more. uncertainty and expect that to work without quite. serious effort and quite serious. attention and grip. And I think that's we're kind of slightly getting closer to that, but we're not quite there yet.
And yet we're we're doing it,
perfect and we have to be rigorous about it. That kind of the impact on the victim has got to be built in. You know, I've had people say to me, well, Nicole, you know, people will always be released. You know, there's always going to be people released. Well, yeah. And it was never safely planned, you know, then either. And so you can't then layer on an early release and more. uncertainty and expect that to work without quite. serious effort and quite serious. attention and grip. And I think that's we're kind of slightly getting closer to that, but we're not quite there yet.
And yet we're we're doing it,
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Matt Bishop Thank you, chair, I have a couple of quick questions, as I'm sure you'll both agree. It takes an immense a lot of strength for victims and survivors to report crimes of domestic abuse control and coercive behaviour, sexual assaults. We know that. That's that's fact. Do you think that the impact of the early release scheme will mean that victims are less. inclined to report thinking? Well, what's the point if they're going to be out after .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
They may end up with? I do worry about that. I worry about, you know, my own. responsibility and going and speaking to the media so openly about these concerns because, of course, you're balancing people's. confidence in systems. And I want people to know that there are lots and lots of, you know, you were a police officer, so you'll know there'll be lots of people there willing to help going the extra mile, all of those things. But it is also true that you can't deny these. The people I've spoken to and who've spoken to the media.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You know how they've felt and how they've been let down. And so it's a balancing act because I don't I do. feel on the whole, I would want people to reach out, you know, obviously for help and. support and that it should be there and will be there and lots and lots of cases. And so I do think a lot of over the years, it won't be the only thing, but there's been quite a few things that I think have eroded the .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
That it's. worthwhile them explaining what's happened to them when they're met by. constant challenges, whether that be not being believed at first or listened to, then the years it takes for them to navigate the system. And then when you add early release on top of that, it's just another thing that means actually they think, actually, why is it worth me coming forward? I think I would also just add one small thing on the protection orders. I think it comes back to that join up. We were talking about in terms of. cross-government at the start when it comes to slavery, trafficking risk orders, prevention orders, there are lessons there to be learned from the government in terms of police having the awareness, the Crown Prosecution Service, having the awareness in terms of monitoring, in terms of local forces, not just being able to apply for one in their patch, which the government is addressing with changes they're making at the moment.
But I think it's actually in terms of the women that we're trying to help with this strategy. They can face. overlapping harms, and I think there's lessons to be learned from things we've tried to do in the modern slavery space that actually maybe haven't worked as well as we would like .
But I think it's actually in terms of the women that we're trying to help with this strategy. They can face. overlapping harms, and I think there's lessons to be learned from things we've tried to do in the modern slavery space that actually maybe haven't worked as well as we would like .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Them to for survivors of domestic abuse to. Thank you. It's following on from that directly. We heard in evidence to government before these decisions were made of early release, that any perpetrator of any crime being sentenced to prison, that that in itself is a deterrent, no matter how long the sentence is for. I disagree. I think that the longer the sentence, the more chance you are perhaps thinking twice before you go and commit a crime. Do you agree with that sentiment? Or do you think that. perpetrators of domestic abuse think, well, if I'm going to get even more time off, you know, how much of an impact does that have on their decision making?
Or if they're second .
Or if they're second .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Themselves, if that question makes sense, what's your thoughts? I do, I've heard from a lot of victims recently who, once they've got their head around what is happening here , about how long you would stay in. custody and how long you serve your sentence in the community, how that's changed. And once they they will say things like, I wish I had, I wish I had said all of what he had ever done. Like, in other words, if I understood, it was about kind of having to, you know, I wish I could have built the picture. So it was.
clearer that that what he was being sentenced for is really commiserate with what has what has happened or he or she, depending. And so I do, I do understand that. I suppose the other flip side of that is that as we've got in the Sentencing Act, kind of a move or drive to community based. sentences or. presumption of a community based.
clearer that that what he was being sentenced for is really commiserate with what has what has happened or he or she, depending. And so I do, I do understand that. I suppose the other flip side of that is that as we've got in the Sentencing Act, kind of a move or drive to community based. sentences or. presumption of a community based.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Given all of those risks? And I think, you know, we haven't been able to to talk enough and work enough in. government about that because of early release kind of. overshadowing so much. But in actuality, that's already started, right? You know, the Sentencing Act is, is meaning that that is what will be happening for some of those sentences. And I don't, I think that's .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Will be an emerging concern. And I often see, and I'm sure you did too, the Sexual Offences Act being used when it comes to trying to hold perpetrators of modern slavery to account. In a way, I agree with that approach in terms of it. disrupting crime taking place. But actually, there's a reason there's a lifetime sentence in the Modern Slavery Act because it. recognises the level of horrific action that's going on.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Move is doing to survivors. Thank you. And my last question, as we all know, in this room and you guys, especially when we talk about things such as controlling and coercive behaviour, while controlling and coercive behaviour can mean many things, right. And it could mean a one off incident. It could mean a multiple serious, serious, serious incident. And I welcome the. government's changes to to the early release scheme that they made recently. But do you think that all domestic abuse cases, regardless to the levels, regardless whether it's controlling and coercive, regardless of whether it's domestic rape, any cases at all .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That it's a little bit difficult to say all domestic abuse. perpetrators because of our offenders, because of some of the ways we were talking about tracking those cases. And but I do believe they should have been. It's not for me to answer. Is that realistic for the government, given what they knew or. I don't know, all of the information they had in front of them about prison spaces. And that's not for me to answer. That's for them to make that decision. But I definitely wanted domestic abuse related offenders to be excluded because of that respite alone.
But that hasn't happened. And often, you know, again, victims will say, you know. understandably have not followed the Sentencing Act and has not have not followed all of these changes. And they're quite shocked. They're quite they're genuinely quite shocked by this. change and, and feel it's come out of the blue. And I've had victims say to me, how can how can people in government change what the judge said and ordered? You know, it just .
But that hasn't happened. And often, you know, again, victims will say, you know. understandably have not followed the Sentencing Act and has not have not followed all of these changes. And they're quite shocked. They're quite they're genuinely quite shocked by this. change and, and feel it's come out of the blue. And I've had victims say to me, how can how can people in government change what the judge said and ordered? You know, it just .
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
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Bell Ribeiro-Addy
Take Catherine Atkinson and Preet Gill together just so we can move on? But, Catherine, I wanted to go back to. preventative orders because it's something I used to do a lot when I was a barrister, and I'm conscious that you have got so many different types of orders, whether it's. non-molestation orders or sexual harm prevention orders or stalking orders or or injunctions against harassment. So moving to the kind of being able to have a universal order with domestic abuse prevention orders seems like a really positive step. But do you think that, A there should be a simplification of all the orders that we see, but also, do you think that more needs to be done for.
consistency across police.
consistency across police.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Kind of preventative orders are needed for those offenders? Preet Gill Mine is in respect of domestic abuse perpetrators. Do you think the drive or a. perpetrator programme should have been part of the release. conditions and how how robust do you think it is that there are markers being put on. properties and that there is an. expectation of what the police. response to a callout from that number would be .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
To to support victims further. I think the original thinking was that the more the Dapa would be developed and rolled out, it would almost be a natural. progression to using those as opposed to other orders. It wouldn't be for all orders, though. You know, we're I think we're far from that. I think, you know, I've had people say to me in many areas will likely continue using some of these other orders until we straighten out the issues with the depots.
So and then it's another thing to know they exist. You know, in police.
So and then it's another thing to know they exist. You know, in police.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We must. achieve some way that police forces know and have at their. fingertips all of the right information. It's such a disservice to victims and also to their own safety in the front line. response to show up to, you know, an incident and a residence or a location where they don't have all the. information in front of them. And so what worries me a little bit is some of the improvements we need to look at. urgently or kind of will start to get, you know, not necessarily. intentionally kicked into the long grass, but will because we'll be so.
focused about police reform. What about the here and the now? And some of these problems, as you say, are currently very chronic problems. There's some pilots and some initiatives about, you know. manually ways to share information about various orders. None of that is really good enough. And a lot of that comes down to. technology being used. different different methods and different forces and not a uniform way of sharing those orders. And so it leaves it up to the victim to do, you know, the victim has to then explain the order and have it with them and talk about it.
And that's just not good enough. And I think you're right about in early. release being clear, what is the role of the police in breaches? I think most people and most victims think a tag goes off if there's a breach and somehow it activates, you know, this kind of overarching response. And that's not the case. Actually, it's, you know, the probation officer will know about it. eventually within a time period, but there won't be. necessarily a. predictable action taken. And that needs much more clarity. And I think you're right about drive is something that the government has gotten behind and has rolled out, and that is about knowing much more about the perpetrator, the offender.
And so surely there's much more scope in how to draw that a little bit closer to problem solving for some of these issues in early release. So yes to I think you're .
focused about police reform. What about the here and the now? And some of these problems, as you say, are currently very chronic problems. There's some pilots and some initiatives about, you know. manually ways to share information about various orders. None of that is really good enough. And a lot of that comes down to. technology being used. different different methods and different forces and not a uniform way of sharing those orders. And so it leaves it up to the victim to do, you know, the victim has to then explain the order and have it with them and talk about it.
And that's just not good enough. And I think you're right about in early. release being clear, what is the role of the police in breaches? I think most people and most victims think a tag goes off if there's a breach and somehow it activates, you know, this kind of overarching response. And that's not the case. Actually, it's, you know, the probation officer will know about it. eventually within a time period, but there won't be. necessarily a. predictable action taken. And that needs much more clarity. And I think you're right about drive is something that the government has gotten behind and has rolled out, and that is about knowing much more about the perpetrator, the offender.
And so surely there's much more scope in how to draw that a little bit closer to problem solving for some of these issues in early release. So yes to I think you're .
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Robbie Moore
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Robbie Moore
Harms, I just want to ask another further question on the early prisoner release. It was a big topic just to do with understanding your perception of erosion of trust amongst victims and survivors in coming forward to the national grooming gangs inquiry that we now, now finally have in place. It's been put to me that whilst there was a roll back by the government, that those that had been those perpetrators of very serious sexual crimes, rape will now not be released at serving 33% of their sentence. There is still this challenge of trust being eroded. So do you feel that there may be victims and.
survivors less reluctant to come forward to provide evidence as part of that inquiry? Because it's certainly been put .
survivors less reluctant to come forward to provide evidence as part of that inquiry? Because it's certainly been put .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That is an area of concern. I feel like that's a bit it is. It is. I'm not trying to cop out. It is a bit out of my scope of the kinds of victims or the kind of. experiences I have talking to victims who will traditionally be domestic abuse related. There's a real overlap there, but I don't know that I've heard. specifically about the grooming gangs. I wish I could tell you more, I'll try to find out a bit more .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Actually is the. criminalization aspect of their exploitation, which you'll know about, but also they are speaking about. consistently this. credibility requirement, which I know is slightly different to the early release , but I can't stress enough how harmful it is to have on one side, hopefully us making progress when it comes to domestic abuse, saying actually, we understand it takes time to come forward. We understand that actually it's difficult and we should be listening and believing you as the.
premise then to have a different rule for survivors of sexual.
premise then to have a different rule for survivors of sexual.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Can I just go to Peter now and then we'll come back to you, Robbie, for online harms, of course. And thank you. I was going to start by asking about changes under the proposed immigration and asylum bill to credibility, but I think we've covered that quite extensively. So I might actually move past that to ask about other changes proposed in that bill and how they interact with action on violence against women and girls. So firstly, on reforms to the national referral.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
As are some local authorities. But actually. increasingly in my time in commission as commissioner, I am hearing survivors say, I was told by a police force, actually, that I wasn't able to be referred into the national referral mechanism or this didn't apply to me, only to find out actually that was the wrong information. So I am concerned actually about our. overall our overarching approach to identifying victims of modern slavery at the moment.
Although as we see from the rising numbers, we are still. identifying them in .
Although as we see from the rising numbers, we are still. identifying them in .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
To the NRM. What what are those concerns? Main concerns are the Home Office is saying the national referral mechanism. reform is being delivered through the credibility requirement clause. 36 of the Immigration Asylum Bill, part five. They are saying that will make it easier to identify victims of modern slavery. I would. completely disagree with that premise. I don't think it is making it easier for us to identify them. It's creating a culture of fear amongst survivors that they won't be believed. And it's actually introducing a very strange precedent for this group of. survivors that we are.
questioning their. credibility and their stories when they come forward. And that is.
questioning their. credibility and their stories when they come forward. And that is.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
That's not the case. I find when I speak to them, they are deeply concerned. I've had Al-Fayed survivors getting in touch with me and say, actually, this will actually stop women like us being recognised and they're already struggling to get the support that they need. But also they're coming forward to me because they're nervous about what it will .
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Mean to other women and girls who are being exploited. At the moment. The claim is is consistently made not by me. I'm just I'm just. reporting on it. That. Asylum seekers who are at risk of their asylum claim being turned down are turning to claims about modern slavery belatedly, in order to either to sort of, you know, have another go or to delay any attempts to remove them from the country. Is that a legitimate complaint, something that you have seen? And if it is, you know, does that undermine. The position of of very real victims of, of modern slavery in the asylum system, i.e., if that is a.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Those who genuinely are victims of modern slavery? So if you are confirmed to be a victim of modern slavery by the Home Office, that doesn't give you any. automatic right to remain in the UK. So I really struggle to. understand that assertion being put forward by the government. Also, when I question the Home Office on. Can you tell me the data behind these claims? They really struggle to. provide any meaningful. statistics on it. The best ones they've managed are how many high risk. deportation flights are delayed after 3 p.m. on that day from a claim, and it's a tiny, tiny.
percentage of those victims of modern slavery system. I think it's less than. 1% of those victims, 2%. So I don't see any evidence from the Home Office to assert that claim. The Home Affairs Select Committee, chaired by Dame Diana Johnson before Dame Karen Bradley on this, looked at it.
percentage of those victims of modern slavery system. I think it's less than. 1% of those victims, 2%. So I don't see any evidence from the Home Office to assert that claim. The Home Affairs Select Committee, chaired by Dame Diana Johnson before Dame Karen Bradley on this, looked at it.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Is the wording of the legislation question your. credibility if you have been exploited? I think even if the Home Office was trying to address an issue that I've outlined the numbers to be incredibly small on the evidence that we've seen, it's going to be something that. actually affects all victims and their ability to come forward and speak freely about what's happening to them.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
But actually, we need to be asking. businesses to actively prevent harm happening in their supply chains and the forced labour that's happening in their supply chains across the world, not just report on it. And I will say that the UK is hugely behind compared to our international partners in this space.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
In terms of where we are and exactly what are we where are we headed? There's a lot of. actions and. statements of intent in this action plan, but again, it's it's. unclear at DCMs now that sit you know, the the has been decommissioned and things have. transferred in terms of portfolio to DCMs. You know, what I would like to see is a much greater bringing together of the the VOG. sector service. providers to give. regular kind of on the ground quick. input and also. expertise to DCMs about and Ofcom about some of the things they're seeing in in the here and the now, the helplines, the first ports of call.
You know, we would obviously say and the strategy in some ways does kind of point to all sorts of ways we strengthen. prevention education about digital spaces, the kind of.
You know, we would obviously say and the strategy in some ways does kind of point to all sorts of ways we strengthen. prevention education about digital spaces, the kind of.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You know, take down measures like it's kind of it's all there in lots of ways. The kinds of things I would say I believe need to happen. But I think what we don't have, again, is a clarity. about who, when, how. And one of the things that's genuinely missing, I believe, is that tuning into the, the helplines and the services, who are real ports of call and particularly for domestic abuse, where this gets. difficult is the. coercive and controlling behaviour. You know, sometimes what is online could be online harm would be very obvious to to some of us.
But with domestic.
But with domestic.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Some of that is not so obvious because you'd have to know the context of domestic abuse. You'd have to. understand what those threats or what that. presence online and looks like. And I do think we have a real lack of. understanding fully about that. I think there's also, you know, a disconnect between what we expect of the. police in terms of these issues and what is. recorded and really happens and is dealt with partly because of the barriers put in place, frankly, for them about what they feel is achievable. So if you're a victim of domestic abuse, you approach the police with criminal damage, online.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You know, non-fatal strangulation. Some of those things will be more obvious to the police to be able to pursue an account for, and I'm afraid we're missing a huge amount of online harm because it becomes and it falls into the too hard to address category. And the immediate advice to victims is just we'll just stand down from your whole. You stand down and you hide away and you get off the platform and all of that. So I think there's so much more to do in terms of having a bit of what would be a great step forward would be the things that we do have as.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And those are not. charities and. services that, you know, are funded to the extent that they're they're providing research to Ofcom. You know, they're they're providing support to people who are calling. And so if we want that to happen, we have to construct that. We have to make sure we're supporting those services well enough that we understand what they're hearing. And that's adding to the evidence base. So there's something about engineering that that really .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Are now using the internet at amazing ability with AI speed reach to groom their victims online and reach them. And even in my time as commissioner, I've seen a huge increase in sexual. exploitation now being. facilitated through platforms, and I don't think they are doing enough. When I looked at adult service websites, there were signs of. trafficking in. 60% of those ads. The adverts weren't being taken down. There was nowhere for those women who were being exploited to report the harm. And there was no age verification on those websites, and survivors told me that children were contacting them online.
When I look at. OnlyFans on third party.
When I look at. OnlyFans on third party.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
There's clear conversations about trafficking and. exploitation and violence and control taking place on those platforms. I don't think we are doing enough. I don't think the platforms are. I've had good. engagement with Ofcom and I actually do work very closely with them and welcome their collaboration. But the. difficulty is. perpetrators are using the internet at far greater speed than we ever thought they would when we pass the Online Safety Act. And if we're trying to prevent harm happening, we're trying to prevent individuals being groomed. I think we need to be as forward facing as the.
perpetrators are and understand actually how they are using tech to reach across. society and reach new groups of vulnerable girls who tell me they're sitting in English class and being.
perpetrators are and understand actually how they are using tech to reach across. society and reach new groups of vulnerable girls who tell me they're sitting in English class and being.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Whereas before, I think even five years ago, that wasn't the case, that wasn't what we saw. And it also means that the women that I used to see being sexually exploited, who were far more visible to charities and safeguarding professionals, may be on the street or in certain areas in. communities are now being controlled online and appearing in pop up Airbnbs and brothels, which makes it harder for us to identify and reach them. So I welcome the bits in the action plan about online harms, but I don't think they actually, truly are looking to the future enough to .
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Karen Bradley
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Karen Bradley
We need to be having that conversation in policy making. I'm Anna Dixon and Peter Swallow. Yeah, just on the the whole online harms and the rapidity in which that is being perpetrated and moving. There was something we were concerned about in the Public Accounts Committee that the government, whether it's through legislation or government departments, just not able to have the agility to respond. You mentioned Ofcom, but you also mentioned the platforms. Given that if we pass new legislation, it is likely that the perpetrators will outwit that legislation as quickly as we can bring it to pass.
What do you think either Ofcom or the platforms themselves should be doing to try and, you know, cut down on this, you know, explosion of sexual exploitation that you describe both of children. And that is also vividly described in the National Centre for Violence Against Women and Girls and Public Protections.
What do you think either Ofcom or the platforms themselves should be doing to try and, you know, cut down on this, you know, explosion of sexual exploitation that you describe both of children. And that is also vividly described in the National Centre for Violence Against Women and Girls and Public Protections.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Recent Threat Risk Assessment report. Can we take Peter's question as well? Very briefly, the Human Rights Committee has also recently looked at AI, and I just wanted to ask specifically about a lot of these questions. presuppose there is an offender somewhere, even if they're behind a keyboard. But one of the risks with AI is the black box nature of, of, of the. process means that we can see harms being. generated without necessarily. accountability landing and with any one human. So as we think about. protecting ourselves from AI, what would your. priority be in terms of making sure that we are building systems that are inherently safe for women?
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Sorry, that is a very big question to ask for a brief response to. I appreciate I will try to be brief. We looked at future and evolving threats that are taking place and look, just over the last year, and I think this was one of the key things that came up, how perpetrators are using AI, whether it's to. generate Csam, whether it's to actually. target a huge range of.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Start conversations with. individuals and then either groom control them or. blackmail them. I think that is really difficult for policy makers to understand, actually how we respond to it, when actually perpetrators are moving more quickly than actually the. strategy outlined in the first place. But I do think platforms need to take far greater. accountability on it. It's welcome that we have the Online Safety Act. Ideally, in my mind, you wouldn't actually need this legislation. I do think the. platforms know about a lot of the harm that's taking place when I question them on why, actually, with no age verification, there's a clear sign of a woman being sexually exploited.
Sometimes it's even listed that they're a teen. And why isn't there somewhere for that to be reported? Is it okay that actually their take down process seems to take an absolute age where actually I think it could be immediate. In my mind, it's not. So I think actually it kind of comes back to the whole society approach that's in the strategy. We need everyone to play their part to stop violence against women and girls. And I do think for me, when I look at the rising numbers of. younger UK girls that we're seeing being sexually.
Sometimes it's even listed that they're a teen. And why isn't there somewhere for that to be reported? Is it okay that actually their take down process seems to take an absolute age where actually I think it could be immediate. In my mind, it's not. So I think actually it kind of comes back to the whole society approach that's in the strategy. We need everyone to play their part to stop violence against women and girls. And I do think for me, when I look at the rising numbers of. younger UK girls that we're seeing being sexually.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Things happening online at the moment. And I would I would only add really simply that there is something about that I feel. I'm not saying that the strategy answers everything, but it does. provide some clarity about the. infrastructure that. government should be putting in place or intended a year ago to put in place. And when I was, you know, before coming today, looking at those particular.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You know, the. National Centre for VOG and Public Protection, which was a commitment in this strategy, which has been up and running and is going from strength to strength. You know, they have they are. equipping police forces with some of this. information at much greater pace. And that needs to be built upon. So when we've had drug. facilitated sexual.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
That National Centre has been working with the National Crime. Agency much more. Join up. Much more clarity. That's what I mean about, you know, victims and those who care and want to see change. They need to know who their where are their. vehicles for making that change. And I do think that's a good example, but we need to see so much more of these commitments built on and clear for us to know, to know how to address those and the platforms themselves. I really hope, if anything, just as a my own personal view, I hope Ofcom can help make make it clear to us which.
platforms as users we should be feeling confident in and which we shouldn't when they're asked about these issues. You know, I think people and the public will increasingly, I .
platforms as users we should be feeling confident in and which we shouldn't when they're asked about these issues. You know, I think people and the public will increasingly, I .
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Hope, really vote with their feet or their fingers on these things. Thank you for that. And I would just refer you to the. valedictory speech that Jonathan Hall made last week in this building, where he talked about quite a lot of this as well. So I think we have a lot of people on our side now. We've kept you a long time because this is obviously we've got an extra committee members here, but we've got one final questions, which Matt Bishop's going to do on about information .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Happening or has it happened? And if it is, how is it working? It's not happening. As far as I understand. It was a really. celebrated the notion of, you know, we in shorthand call this the firewall, the idea that you wouldn't fear having to pass information. The information about you wouldn't be passed along to immigration services. There's, you know, it's absolutely clear. Many police leaders have talked to me about this. They would like to see it. When I've asked the Home Office for their own information about how much when information is passed along, how is it aiding any kind of information?
You know, immigration enforcement is not often. So all it is doing is protecting. perpetrators because it means that migrant survivors are very worried to come. forward and they're told a lot of.
You know, immigration enforcement is not often. So all it is doing is protecting. perpetrators because it means that migrant survivors are very worried to come. forward and they're told a lot of.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
And they have obviously huge support needs, and it just plays straight into the hands of the perpetrator, as you know. And the. disappointment in the. language of that commitment was this idea of asking for consent. Because if on the ground, picture yourself in that situation, you know, well, you can quite easily as a former police officer, you know, if you ask in a certain way, how are you sure you've had consent? Maybe the victim will feel they have to give. consent for information to be passed along. So that needs clarity. So again, we're about a year on and I don't think we've achieved what that.
commitment set out to do, which is for everyone to understand how that consent would be.
commitment set out to do, which is for everyone to understand how that consent would be.
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
Really actually do need our support. Thank you. Yeah, it's yeah, very much something that I hear day in, day out. So can I thank you? I say, I know we've kept you longer than we even we were expecting, but I think you can see the level of interest in this area across many committees. Certainly from a home affairs point of view, there's much more we want to do on this. And there's questions, I think, that we need to put to the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary in due course. But thank you once again to our witnesses.
And this will be something that we will be .
And this will be something that we will be .
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