Business, Innovation, Science and Trade Committee

Tuesday 27th October 2026

(began 1 day, 7 hours ago)

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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Yeah, absolutely. And I'd say it's the kind of other side of the coin of what Mark talks about, because when it comes to talent, you either have homegrown talent or you can kind of bring it in from outside. And we are lucky enough to attract a lot of talent from all over the world. And that equates to over half of the fastest growing companies. So those are the most valued companies. And that's why we've got such a huge figure as 15 billion. And. But we could attract a lot more. We the reason we can get a lot of those people to come through our universities.

 And traditionally, we've been able to keep people on. After they've studied in the UK, they've gone on maybe to work in another field, become an expert and then start a business. And one of these really high growth businesses. I think all businesses matter. But for this, for the purpose of this report, the Job Creators report, we focus on kind of really high growth businesses. There's so much uncertainty at the moment around the visa system. People in the country don't know how long they're going to stay, and the Home Office need to kind of get back to, to a very large consultation that took place on that.

 Also, we don't really have an entrepreneur visa that's working properly. We have a visa that's kind of only attracts a few, few thousand we can open that up to, to attract more people by kind of giving the endorsing bodies more collateral to make decisions. We could also extend the high potential individual visa. And that currently is a kind of fast track visa for people who've gone to certain universities around the world. We could include business schools in that which just isn't in in the metric that they decided. And that would include business schools like Insead, you know, world famous business schools could could come in.

 And also the cost of visas, especially for start ups, small businesses. It's it's in the thousands of individuals, it's in the thousands for companies. And then when you talk about dependence as well, then it just becomes completely un. Yeah, just completely uncompetitive compared to, to mainland Europe. So yeah, there's a lot of positives. And as much as we are still a country that can attract these people, but, you know, we're kind of missing a massive trick by not not letting more people come in.
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Liam Byrne Portrait Liam Byrne
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You've spent a lot of time looking at some of the barriers that ethnic minority communities face, in particular, based on the data that's been published this morning. And some of your own work give us a sense about the the kind of the key barriers and maybe some of the opportunity costs that the country is running as a result. Well, I think there's a link between the comment about uncertainty and talent in diverse communities that applies to communities in the UK. So at the moment, ethnic minority businesses contribute 25 billion to the economy. But that contribution could rise to 100 billion, 100 billion if they grew at the same rate at the rate of their white counterparts.

 To do that, we've got a 75 billion opportunity cost here. Yeah, yeah. And it's a huge opportunity that we're losing sight of because we don't recognise the talent fully in our own diverse communities. We need to have much better data on minority entrepreneurs. And we've been trying to persuade government to do this for many, many years. There's a real, real benefit to be had by simply getting a better grip on the evidence base and integrating it into various policy domains. So I think that's very important. The issue about access to finance, it's been well rehearsed in the government's small business strategy.

 It applies with particular force to ethnic minority communities. There's been a long standing issue about access to finance and ethnic minority firms. We did the first major study in the UK in the year 2000, and many of the issues that we identified there still pertain, particularly in relation to the core issue of discouragement. Discouragement means that good business propositions are being wasted because people from diverse communities believe they won't be treated fairly, despite the fact there are decent propositions. These are quite durable barriers, I think. I think that absolutely barriers that can be addressed, and I think they go with the grain of policy pronouncement about growth in growth in every postcode, about opportunity, about integrating inclusion.

 It's one of those areas which has an economic and social payoff. At the same time, Mark talked very persuasively about the role of young entrepreneurs and the neat agenda. And the entrepreneurship is a way of addressing needs. Well, I can tell you for for decades, a minority entrepreneurs have been addressing the needs issue all by themselves because they disproportionately recruit from their own community, disproportionately recruit people who haven't got qualification qualifications, and provide a real pathway for economic development and social mobility through the prism of enterprise. And there's a great opportunity to be had. And again, this is with the grain of devolution as well.

If we get to know, know, understand our local communities really well, we could work with the talent that's already there and enhance and leverage that.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Senator Edwards.
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Alison Griffiths Portrait Alison Griffiths
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Yeah, absolutely. And that figure that you've just quoted there, it's actually gone up to 313 billion now. That is how much that could be added to the UK economy if women were supported in the same way that our male counterparts are with access to direct finance, we have seen some positive movement in terms of 65% increase in equity investment into women, but we still remain at that 2% of overall funding into female led businesses. We are starting to see progress, but we are mistaking activity for progress, and we need to be very careful of that, because if we start to look at activity as being progress, we don't want to see those outcomes and we certainly won't see that increased economic value that we have the opportunity to gain.

 We are seeing more female founders enter the world of entrepreneurial ism, and professor Mark Hart highlighted there. We are seeing women drop off at that 2 to 3 year gap, and the reason that is happening is because women are not getting access to capital at that very early stage. So my ask today is that we start to look at products that are available for female founders who are entering the entrepreneurial ecosystem, that are looking at more than debt focused. We've got start up loans, we have angel investors. Now we'll come on to angel investing next, but we need to see more products and we need to see more gateways.

We are still seeing unconscious bias in the funding ecosystem, which is why we need more women to be participating and making those investment decisions. We must have a greater focus on how we support women to angel invest as well. And 13% of the UK angel investors are women, which is good, but 11% of them are in the southeast. So that means there is a very, very small percentage of women angel investors in the rest of the regions. So we have recently launched a campaign where we're asking for the government to fund and support female founders with a pound for pound co-investment fund.

 What we are saying is that we will work to increase women angel investors across the UK. And for every pound that a woman angel investor invests, we're asking for a pound of investment from central government because we believe that is the only way that we're going to move the dial from that 2% mark. And if we don't move that, we've lost a lot of economic value. We're also seeing.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Anything further?
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Or how long.
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Well, I think what we see at the moment are businesses coming out of our university sector, young people, which are already there. And I think we we've got to do the sums in this. I haven't got the Treasury spreadsheet. I agree that, but we need to go away and do the sums to find out how much it would cost. Look at the evidence from elsewhere, see what what it would actually take to do this. And you're looking at you're probably thinking about 32,000 individuals in Germany have had benefit of this. So it's not sort of a a universal.

 So there's an entry fee, if you like, in terms of what it is you're proposing to do and what they're proposing to actually develop. So yeah, it's not available to every 2021 year old who's just coming to the end of their degree. In France, for example, there's about 40,000 of these students of national enterprise status. So that's the sort of scale we're talking about. But the growth ambition there is the key entry fee. For me, it's all about not chasing the headline numbers of startups, but finding out where is the growth ambition. I'm coming back to the female point and the data has shown this.

 When you control for the types of businesses that women set up, women are just as ambitious as men. So take the sector difference away from that, and that should be evidence enough to the equity to the angels. Dare I say it, the VC to really say, look, we can back women because, you know, they are some of the most ambitious entrepreneurs in our society. Look at by women built. I work with some of the most ambitious female led businesses in the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small Business program. The potential is there. The financial sector needs to pay attention.

 Okay.
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Liam Byrne Portrait Liam Byrne
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Yeah. Can I just before the budget just address coming on something that Dan Aldridge mentioned about the kinds of businesses that he was seeing in his communities. I think this hits upon a really neglected topic. There's a big concern at the moment about reviving our high streets, most high streets, especially in an area you know. Well, chair, often in Birmingham, for example, a great example, women and minority communities gravitate towards those high streets and set up businesses. There's one stellar example which I want to draw your attention to Soho Road, an area you will know very well.

 The people are talking in other parts of the country and in the city about the dying of the high street. There's no recession in that high street. It's one of the most busiest entrepreneurial high street you'll see. And there's a waiting list of international entrepreneurs wanting to locate there, you know, in we would call that FDI in another policy discourse. Right. But we don't hear why. Right. And that street provides jobs, provides different communities with a pathway to economic development. It integrates different communities, and it has a huge number of growth firms which aren't recognised as such.

 But I don't think the business support system is agile enough to integrate the sort of policy thinking, the economic thinking and the social policy domain. It provides answers. There was a piece of research done by anthropologists a few years ago that where they knocked on every door in a sort of surrounding street and every business on that street, and they found out that there'd been businesses there for 3 or 4 decades. They spoke 3 or 4 different languages for business purposes. They contributed disproportionately to the the tax base. They employed a huge number of non-family workers, again, from neat communities.

 But why aren't we seeing that as a resource? But we see sort of these shopping malls as a resource and we try and attract them. But again, this is the talent that goes unrecognized in our own communities. And then so if I would address Antonia's point about what I would like to see in the budget, I would start off with that, recognising the talent there. I mean, we've got now a system in the UK, which is, I think, a reasonably well developed and the business growth network, the British Growth Service. But do we know what priority they are attaching to going out and finding the female businesses, finding the ethnic minority businesses in their patch?

 Do we is there any warrant for them to work with those businesses? Do we know how many of them they're supporting? Do we know how many of them they're facilitating to grow? Because we have a we have a mechanism there, but I'm not sure how well we're utilizing it. That's one thing. The second thing, someone needs to own this agenda. Someone really needs to drive this particular agenda. And again, you know, if we were to look at sort of international best practice, let's say in Canada, for example, there is a discernible body there integrated within government whose job it is to drive black empowerment.

 In that particular case, we don't have a similar this is not a I'm not advocating a policy of separation. It's actually really integration on steroids to make sure that it's integrated in every policy domain. And we need to see what works.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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Thank you.
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None Portrait Speaker 2
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Great. I'm going to say three things, but I'll say them quickly. So on Mark's point, we put out a report on called Starting Out and Starting up. And this was all about kind of tackling the Neet challenge. Our position was that if you kind of focus youth jobs grant. So currently if you employ someone, you get a grant of £3,000. But if you start your own business and obviously there will have to be metrics for this. But if you get to a certain point, you should, we think, also be able to qualify for that grant because also you could then go on to employ people.

 So and there's other ideas. We used to have the new entrepreneurs allowance. We had the the enterprise allowance, the enterprise allowance before that as well. And there was a lot of mentoring involved. And I think bringing something back now, it's really the time to do that, given where we are with 1 million youth unemployed, the kind of hard er, kind of policy announcement I'd like to see in the budget is around R&D tax credits. And I mentioned that one specifically because there isn't the kind of trade body necessarily to represent them, but they are in an absolute mess.

A lot of entrepreneurs who are doing very innovative things are choosing not to apply for them because they are being hounded by HMRC, with kind of demands from previous years to give back money. There is this this happened for a good reason. They weren't being properly managed and there was a lot of kind of fraud that took place within them. But within that context, now we have lots of legitimate kind of founders, a lot of innovation that's not being undertaken. And that's kind of with the backdrop of work from economists like Van Reenen and other others that show how effective they are.

So in the past, when we've I think when we doubled the, the, the kind of the how generous they were. We also doubled the level of innovation. Patent quality went up 60% as well. So there's a lot of really strong evidence that that they work, but they need now to be properly targeted. And, and there are ways of doing that. And Canada, I'll kind of leave that as a tantalising thing to look into. And then the final one, I think, and this is kind of something that I think kind of connects a lot of what's being said today, and I think is a more ambitious idea than potentially some of the things we we may hear tomorrow is about connecting up government and connecting up data.

So we put out report called Master Key. And this is the idea of having one identifier across businesses. Currently as a business owner and I'm a small business owner myself, I have to keep telling government what I am, what I'm doing, who I am. And that's kind of annoying. And yes, there's a big part of that. And there's, I think there's like millions of hours to be saved. And you could quote that number. But on the more positive side, imagine a place where government would know exactly who I was and if I was growing fast enough, and if I was a female founder in, you know, in Doncaster growing fast enough that they could target me and say, hey, look, we know the data is showing how amazing your business is doing.

And for that reason, we are going to push you towards something. Maybe one of the schemes that Mark's running or someone else. So I really think it's the kind of underlying basis of a lot of kind of interventions, a lot of kind of the ability, the state capacity to for it to act and be able to kind of deliver on the things that we all want. It's kind of slightly kind of boring, but if we get the plumbing right, then, you know, I think the engine can, can, can really kind of get going on the economy.

So I'd say that would be my.
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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Thank you. Thank you very much for the question, and thank you for the invitation. I think I sort of jump in straight to that that challenge that you've got there. There has been a significant increase in venture capital in the long term in the UK, but it has been very concentrated in male founded businesses and the the industry, the venture capital industry as well is notably male as well. So beyond the sort of building of the our investment into venture capital, there are things that we're doing to try and reach those parts of the venture capital work where it doesn't work.

 For example, starting last year, we've got a 400 million allocation to our investor Pathways Capital. What that is, it's pathways for the investors to get into that business, to get into the into the venture fund world. So we're looking at groups of people who are starting to get into venture capital to become a venture capitalist, but we are selecting those. Those people who are more diverse than the VC market is now. So the first allocation we made was a 90 million allocation this summer, having met and engaged with several emerging venture capital funds, and we're happy to say that of that 90 million that's gone, 57% of the people that were involved in those funds, which we are now supporting, are female, which is massively greater than would be in the general area.

 We're also doing a lot in angel syndicates as well. We're focusing in getting the angel finance out into the regions and with our regional angel programme, but we're also have some money which we can actually spend rather than lend in helping diverse angel syndicates get up and running. So again, that's helping people who don't have the funds, who don't really find it difficult to create an angel syndicate.
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Liam Byrne Portrait Liam Byrne
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That's pretty terrifying. I could spend that 75 billion if I . Michael, do you want to start? This is a really serious problem that vexes our industry, specifically because you heard in the last panel, you know, that that really damning statistic of 2% of funding going into all female led investment teams. We have worked with level 20, who operate across private equity and venture capital and private equity on tracking where the investment teams are. It's a slightly different bit of the lens, but it goes to a point that was made earlier that if we have a group of white men, predominantly predominantly, who are in the main decision making seats, then it's hard to change that culture.

 The position we've got to in the industry, which is not anything to boast about, really, is 27% of investment professionals being women. The last time we did the survey, which was the beginning of 25, were due to complete a survey at the beginning of the new calendar year. And of that, then about half that number would be in the investment committees, which are where all the key decisions are taken, and then just slightly fewer smaller percentage, 15% or so are in senior investment positions. Now that is a big challenge. You then set aside from that, and you look at where there's been a lot of effort, and the B-bbee has already heard some of the initiatives they're taking.

 But the Investing in Women Task Force a couple of years ago set itself the target of not just trying to address some of the cultural points and some of the long standing legacy issues, which, as we can see, will take a bit more to fix as people progress through careers and say, where's the capital for female led teams and female founders? And I have to know that that initiative has led to BGF, B-bbee and others getting involved. So there are efforts being made to address it. But I don't think there's a single fix. It's just it's going to take a lot more.

But if I might, without cheating. Chair back slightly. This is in the context of. To add to what Chris said earlier on about just under a billion going into VC every year. Last year there was £8 billion invested by VC in the UK. That's a subset of the overall 25 billion that was invested across the whole country in private equity and VC backed businesses, and that has been a year on year variations. But that is growing. So to pick up one of the themes from the first panel, the entrepreneurship is growing. I was struck by the increase in the monitor figure that was shared today.

 But that also we can see that in around different parts of the country. And just a final cheat to link in to the previous question about what happens beyond the UK. I work here in London, but I live just south of Edinburgh, so I can relate to the four hour trip from Berwick on a good day. And I think culturally it does matter. B-bbee and investors are out there. Miss Vance was at an event we had in Birmingham just a couple of weeks ago. Our industry is certainly seeing lots of opportunity beyond London in the nations and regions.

We want to encourage more of that. We're actually really taken by how stakeholders, whether they're parliamentarians or the different councils, the mayors and so on, are really engaged in this, and that is very encouraging. Equally, I think the mindset has to work both ways here in London. We have one of the most globally significant financial centres on the planet. Number two, in the latest global Financial Centres index consistently there. So the push pull needs to work for us to get people here, as well .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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As going .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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You know, we .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Opportunity is.
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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VC funder.
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Liam Byrne Portrait Liam Byrne
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Okay. Thank you. Mr. Moore. What is wonderful about the UK is the diversity of its economy. And, you know, from what we saw in. You very kindly joined us at the investment forum in Birmingham a couple of weeks ago. The conversations we had over the course of that afternoon did have more manufacturing focus and reindustrializing as a as a theme than perhaps we'd get in other parts of the country. And I think that if we are to emerge from this really dramatic moment in time where we have got a tech revolution coming at us full steam ahead, that is going to disrupt, give us great opportunities to create these businesses of the future and the whole new bits of the economy that we don't even imagine yet, while also disrupting and requiring us to transform the existing businesses we need to get the capital, the entrepreneurs, the ideas all in the right place on that.

And that will be in different forms. But for West Midlands manufacturing to continue for the next 20 or 30 years, it needs to be able to adopt AI and other technologies. And I think there is no shortage of appetite to be part of that from our industry. Whereas in other parts of the country, you know, whether it's the Ox-cam corridor or wherever else, there may be more life sciences focused. Now that can be sometimes it's about the services that go with that, and sometimes it's about the labs and the pharmaceuticals that may come. So there's, I think you can see in each sector, and personally, I'm a big supporter of industrial strategies because it lets us understand how policymakers are thinking and gives really important signals to investors.

 I think we can see it's quite exciting that reindustrialisation as a as a kind of way of galvanising people, works. My only caveat would be to say, I don't think we should be looking to recreate the 1970s or 80s industrial economy because the world has moved on, but we should be aiming to retain and .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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The arrival of financial services and AI across all the regions, just last month they were two in Manchester. One exit, which was an AI company sold to a Nasdaq company, and there was a record series B round for UK payments business, all in all with the Manchester postcode. So that's great. I think trying to reach growth in every postcode. Fantastic goal. Difficult to achieve on a checklist basis, but Vcts have been investing across all the regions of the UK for a long time and what we have seen is in the last maybe. 5 to 10 years, what used to be a heavy balance towards London and the south east, maybe 75, 25 to to the regions a couple of years ago that now reached parity .

And we are broadly 5050, which is a good thing. Part of that the. We also reach, as a result, a a larger proportion of ethnic minority and female entrepreneurs. I know that because it always has some sector imbalances. We do a lot of retail and some fashion brands. So naturally at Pembroke we have more female founders. The latest one is a company called With nothing Underneath its shirts company. You may know it, but that's, that's one one of many. The the data about 2% representation. It's not something that in the world that I live in, in the day to day that I see, we are closer to a third of female.

 representation across the board, whether it's at founder level, at board level of the VC, in investment teams across all the staff in our in my business, it's more like 50/50. So this is something that we've been working on very hard. The key bit for us in terms of making even better. progress is what's called the age limits on some of the restrictions on some of the investments that we can make. Currently, the rules say if a business is. between 7 and 10 years old, they no longer qualify for the VCT or AIS investment offering, which is a shame because we know that businesses in the regions we have stats on this take up to 40% or two years longer to reach maturity for VCT investment.

 So as soon as they get to the seven year mark, all of a sudden,
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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People then?
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None Portrait Speaker 3
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It big .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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A great .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Having us. Firstly. So I think the challenge around starting the business is not necessarily and then there's questions around, you know, how they finance it, etc.. I actually think just one of the biggest barriers is just cash flow and, and actually funding the jobs that they're trying to win. Often it's not about necessarily that they've got a huge challenge in winning work. I think there's, you know, if you're good, you'll, you'll continue to win work. It's, it's actually more about managing the cash flow to fund the job before. And buying the materials. But then also getting paid is, is probably the biggest challenge.

 There's a lot of other things around. A lot of trades are very fearful at the minute, and there's some ONS data to show that, that their fears have sort of been backed up over the previous months around rising material costs. There's been a huge thing for the trade, particularly since Covid, but we kind of fill up on it's definitely happening again at a higher rate. But I would I would generally say cash flow and and then the knock on effect that has around stress and wellbeing in the trade, we already have , unfortunately have the highest suicide rate of any of any industry and wellbeing is two people a day die to suicide and construction.

 So there's some serious wellbeing. challenges around amongst a group of people who end up running a business because they're really good at their job, not because they necessarily know how to run a business. So .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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Helpful for us to .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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And we desperately need them. Otherwise we cannot grow this country. Yeah. And actually, the sentiments opposing the opportunity probably, I think we're all, you know, I've been in the business now 12 years, and I think it's probably the last two years is the first time I've seen construction being talked about so positively. You know, I can go on forever and I won't because I know we're short on time for all these things. But, you know, when people leave education, go into construction, often it's not championed. It's because they fell into something. It's a failure. Younger people going into construction and the stats around there's.

 4 in 7 are neurodiverse already. There are already trying to learn in a different way. The sentiment in the industry at the minute is, is pretty bleak. You know, there's there's. Quarter on, quarter down downturn on the the positive sentiment around rising material costs. So in Q1, it was 60, 60% of tradespeople were worried about rising costs. That went up to 63%. The following quarter went up to. 69.5% last quarter. Same pattern shows around them chasing money. They're all expecting the fact that it's going to be harder to get paid. I mentioned earlier around poor mental health and wellbeing.

 You know, I've got kids, I've got a daughter, I've got a son, I've got one on the way. I love this. industry and thank you. And I would love to promote to them joining this industry. But if I'm being completely honest, I don't know whether I would at the minute. You know, it's a it's a tough place to be. And, and that's coming from someone who absolutely .
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None Portrait Speaker 1
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I think you're .
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None Portrait Speaker 6
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And that .
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Stops .
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Chris Bloore Portrait Chris Bloore
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Material costs are becoming a higher ons of showed that, you know, our data is always predictive around how trades are feeling into the next quarter. ONS have just cited that 52% of construction business reported higher purchasing prices previous quarter. So they're marrying up and and and and they're a risk for for trades. Often what feedback we get from a sole trader or someone who's got maybe 1 or 2 employees, which is the real long tail of, of construction, right? We've got the highest proportion of, of SMEs in any market across, across the UK. Is that the risk of taking someone on, in a market where they're a little bit unsure about what is happening within the next eight weeks, which is the lead time now that it's dragged, you know, a year ago it was at 12, 16 weeks.

 Now they're up to eight weeks. They just can't take that risk. Then what does that mean? If you look down the chain, what does that do then? So then anyone in education in a college needs connecting with an SME. You, you know, you cannot work in construction and then not go to a site or do any. practical learning. And what we're seeing is higher dropout college rates, because people are either getting to the end of the course and don't quite know how to still do the job, or they're not finishing the end of the course, that then the knock on effect of that is we don't have the workforce that we need.

 Businesses can't grow because knock on, knock on, knock on. So that appetite for an SME to be able to grow their own business is, I think, a huge, huge challenge that we've got. But in a market where they don't really get any support for taking someone on, yes, there's levies they can drag down, but often they don't really know how to do that or want the paperwork to do it. It isn't a significant enough amount of money to even really cover what they need. And I think it's different to, you know, you look at the white collar world, if I have someone in my office and it's an apprentice for 18 months, it's a lot, a hell of a lot easier for it to be risk free for me in terms of giving them things to do.

 They're not causing any challenges with clients or whatever that might be. Well, if you're a tradesperson going into someone's home, that's a lot more difficult to one, give them work to do. Often they're in the way. So it's not only the financial impact, it's, it's the, it's the time it takes to take people through the industry in the right way. And there just isn't the incentive there. It's just really, it's all just laid in risk.

 So I definitely think it's hindering that long tail of our of .
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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Sure. I mean, the biggest problem in the industry is that growth that, you know, we all probably know that the, you know, household names on the high street all started from a market stall. So there's that, you know, that end goal, not everybody's going to become the next Marks and Spencers but but but it's that growth and the energy cost especially if they're making the products the fuel costs and and the salary costs which will which will restrict them from growing the business to from the one unit they used to run to, to being on several, you know, six, half a dozen markets, they could have staff out.

 That cost has increased. And, and the. ability to have younger people, we don't have anybody allowed to work from before the 60 or, you know, after the 16. And I do believe it was a great I mean, I did it as a young person, started on a market at 14, helping load into vans, whatever. And I just think as a as a nation, we should really look at these young people in school, being able to work a certain number of hours, which would lead to them being ready at the end of school, especially those. I mean, we've got an industry where our the last two finals that we've held of the young Trader market, nearly 50% of them are neurodiverse.

 So really they came. into market because it was a it's a it's a very inclusive industry. And, you know, from diverse backgrounds. ethnicities and what have you. But I think they'll be able to, to take somebody on to help you grow. You know, they need some, some work experience and everybody's asking for experience. And we're not allowing any to be given. I mean, I sat in a.
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None Portrait Speaker 7
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All of .
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None Portrait Speaker 8
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Up to.
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None Portrait Speaker 5
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So .
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None Portrait Speaker 8
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One more in SMEs to .
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This debate has concluded
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