Education Committee
Tuesday 20th October 2026
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
(began 17 hours, 39 minutes ago)
Watch LiveSkip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
10:01
10:01
10:01
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I'm around 18,000 members and supporters, predominantly nursery groups, preschools, but some childminders as well. The one thing I would say that's fairly unique about us as a membership organisation is that we also operate 28 settings exclusively in areas of deprivation. So I'd like to think that we witness first hand some of the wonders and the challenges of early years.
10:01
10:01
10:01
10:02
10:02
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
I'm name is Richard Waite. I'm early years digital pedagogy and digital safeguarding consultant. My background is I've been in. I'm an NB trained since 1986, so I've got just under 40 years experience in early years. And I've gone from working in settings as management management to support office for a large nursery group, and now I support nurseries as an advisor.
10:02
10:03
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I think from our perspective. Particularly post pandemic, that we started to see more and more children arrive into our settings with social and emotional development delays. And when you speak to providers and managers, they particularly quote AI, edtech as being one of the problems that they have. What is interesting is still to this day, we experience that. And to put it bluntly, I wish I'd had a pound for every manager that had said to me that they'd had to spend their day pacifying staff who had been kicked, bitten, hair pulled, etc. by staff who are not socially and emotionally developed.
And to put that into a very practical and I'll be very quick with this, but to put it into a very practical position from January through to September in our 28 nurseries, we have recorded 43 accidents of staff, 19 of those incidents related to children biting, kicking, throwing objects, scratching, pulling hair of staff, etc.. So that's not even child on child that's on adults. So I would say the big concern that we have is basically child development and their ability to socialize socialise because of AI, edtech and sedentary, dare I say, lifestyles.
And to put that into a very practical and I'll be very quick with this, but to put it into a very practical position from January through to September in our 28 nurseries, we have recorded 43 accidents of staff, 19 of those incidents related to children biting, kicking, throwing objects, scratching, pulling hair of staff, etc.. So that's not even child on child that's on adults. So I would say the big concern that we have is basically child development and their ability to socialize socialise because of AI, edtech and sedentary, dare I say, lifestyles.
10:04
10:04
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
So we've done some research in our research centre recently looking at the impact of AI enabled toys. So this is where there's a generative AI chatbot embedded in something that's kind of cuddly looking and designed for children marketed to under-fives. So we were quite concerned about these kinds of developments. And we we did some research that looked at the interactions of these toys with young children. And we sought parents views and educator views as well. And particularly for the early years sector, people working as nursery practitioners or others in the sector told us that they were quite concerned about impacts of generative AI.
They felt they didn't have the knowledge and skills they needed, and they didn't necessarily know where to turn for support or advice. So I think on the educator side, there's a lot of uncertainty, quite a bit of worry on the sort of parent and child side of things. We we're seeing that it's ubiquitous, right? There's, there's so much quick development in this area. And from what we saw in this very initial study, there's very little research that's been done on the impacts of generative AI, on young children's development that sits outside of the kind of tech development sector.
So we're really lacking evidence in what impacts on child development from the observational work that we've done so far. We did see that generative AI toy interactions were not particularly well calibrated to what we know is good and important for young children's development. So I think we've got a big social change happening, and we don't necessarily have the evidence to know what exactly that impact on children is at the moment.
They felt they didn't have the knowledge and skills they needed, and they didn't necessarily know where to turn for support or advice. So I think on the educator side, there's a lot of uncertainty, quite a bit of worry on the sort of parent and child side of things. We we're seeing that it's ubiquitous, right? There's, there's so much quick development in this area. And from what we saw in this very initial study, there's very little research that's been done on the impacts of generative AI, on young children's development that sits outside of the kind of tech development sector.
So we're really lacking evidence in what impacts on child development from the observational work that we've done so far. We did see that generative AI toy interactions were not particularly well calibrated to what we know is good and important for young children's development. So I think we've got a big social change happening, and we don't necessarily have the evidence to know what exactly that impact on children is at the moment.
10:06
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
I think at the moment I'm thinking about day to day and boots on the ground. And among the concerns that Neil's spoken about in terms of the staff, the struggles with staffing, recruitment and getting the right type of staff in these kind of issues. So technology in early years has already been seen as an issue because most people, most early years, if you say the word technology, they immediately jump into conclusion that you're going to talk about screen time. So if I'm trying to deliver a workshop on technology, nine out of ten people won't come to my workshop because they're not realising what I'm actually talking about.
They'll think I'm going to talk to them about tablets or whatever. So that's an issue. And that's a big concern because screen time is across the media, social media, parent groups all talking about it. So it puts pressures on nurseries because they've got they're thinking about that. And then now AI is now impacted more. It's added to the mix. So you've not only got screen time, you've got AI. And then I think because of recent events in early years, you've also looking at cyber security. So this is a massive cloud of information that nurseries just weren't prepared for.
Nursery manager doesn't go in as a nursery manager or an educator doesn't go in having knowledge about AI, cyber security and screen time. And I think this is a huge, you know, when a manager is coming into nursery at 730 in the morning and they've got staff have called in sick, the chef's not turning up. All these issues come in. The last thing they're probably going to think about is AI, cyber security and screen time.
They'll think I'm going to talk to them about tablets or whatever. So that's an issue. And that's a big concern because screen time is across the media, social media, parent groups all talking about it. So it puts pressures on nurseries because they've got they're thinking about that. And then now AI is now impacted more. It's added to the mix. So you've not only got screen time, you've got AI. And then I think because of recent events in early years, you've also looking at cyber security. So this is a massive cloud of information that nurseries just weren't prepared for.
Nursery manager doesn't go in as a nursery manager or an educator doesn't go in having knowledge about AI, cyber security and screen time. And I think this is a huge, you know, when a manager is coming into nursery at 730 in the morning and they've got staff have called in sick, the chef's not turning up. All these issues come in. The last thing they're probably going to think about is AI, cyber security and screen time.
10:08
Helen Hayes
-
-
Helen Hayes
Thank you very much. So you talked about the influence of AI from outside the setting. What types of educational technology are currently being used in early years settings? And is there any kind of a framework for that in terms of decision making and procurement in the early years, or any evidence base that underpins it that you're aware of? Again, I'll start with you.
10:08
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I'm not sure there is a framework, and I think it is very much a introduce and test later sort of approach that we're seeing at this particular point in time. It's used at the moment predominantly for administration, I would say, within early years settings. And I think it's fair to say that many educators value that. I think the problem that we have is it does not articulate any nuance whatsoever in terms of sensitivity. And so what we're starting to see is reports that are generated, for example, that are very clinical. They do not basically take into account the nuance of a child's personal sort of attributes, etc..
The other thing that we're starting to see is a plethora of AI generated correspondence from parents, whether that be complaints or otherwise, and it's just meant a massive overload. Basically, for early years, educators and the response that they give, unlike maybe ten years ago, which was sit down and talk with a parent, it now becomes a legal document predominantly generated by AI. So that's where it's I would say it's generally being used. That's not to say that we haven't used it, particularly within our settings to support speech and language, for example. And there are some good products, but there are some awful products as well.
And I find it really interesting to give an example that if you were developing a piece of medical equipment for a hospital, it would be assumed that you would understand the consequences of that machine failing or the clinical steps that need to be taken subsequently. But when it comes to edtech, for example, nothing we can just we just take it for granted that it's in the best interests of a child. And there are some very good manufacturers and producers of edtech equipment. So this is not about everybody, but we're also seeing a plethora of poorly constructed with no consideration for a child's social and emotional development equipment being produced.
And that, I think is a big concern. So what we're seeing is educators reluctant to use Kit at this particular point in time, and to take Richard's point, their support, their training is almost non-existent. They are very, very fearful. And when you're fearful, you avoid. And that's what's happening at this particular point in time.
The other thing that we're starting to see is a plethora of AI generated correspondence from parents, whether that be complaints or otherwise, and it's just meant a massive overload. Basically, for early years, educators and the response that they give, unlike maybe ten years ago, which was sit down and talk with a parent, it now becomes a legal document predominantly generated by AI. So that's where it's I would say it's generally being used. That's not to say that we haven't used it, particularly within our settings to support speech and language, for example. And there are some good products, but there are some awful products as well.
And I find it really interesting to give an example that if you were developing a piece of medical equipment for a hospital, it would be assumed that you would understand the consequences of that machine failing or the clinical steps that need to be taken subsequently. But when it comes to edtech, for example, nothing we can just we just take it for granted that it's in the best interests of a child. And there are some very good manufacturers and producers of edtech equipment. So this is not about everybody, but we're also seeing a plethora of poorly constructed with no consideration for a child's social and emotional development equipment being produced.
And that, I think is a big concern. So what we're seeing is educators reluctant to use Kit at this particular point in time, and to take Richard's point, their support, their training is almost non-existent. They are very, very fearful. And when you're fearful, you avoid. And that's what's happening at this particular point in time.
10:11
10:11
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:29
10:30
10:30
10:30
10:30
10:30
Peter Swallow
-
-
Peter Swallow
10:30
10:31
10:31
Caroline Voaden
-
-
Caroline Voaden
Human connection, what's been called kind of 21st century skills, working in teams. collaborating and of course, not being frightened of technology and being able to critically appraise it. So I do think it's important that. children are exposed to technologies, and they have those. conversations about when and how and how much, and does it have a mind and what can it do and what can't it do? So I think it has to be part of a broader approach to, to pedagogy that involves dialogue and helping children to build that, that critical skill and also. educators to build that as well.
I'm thinking of international. examples in Hong Kong. They've got a really interesting. implementation of AI. literacy through kind of games and engagement with these kind of things. associated with kind of pedagogical goals around the technology itself. So I think we absolutely do need that tech to be there. But as Richard .
I'm thinking of international. examples in Hong Kong. They've got a really interesting. implementation of AI. literacy through kind of games and engagement with these kind of things. associated with kind of pedagogical goals around the technology itself. So I think we absolutely do need that tech to be there. But as Richard .
10:32
10:32
Rebecca Paul
-
-
Rebecca Paul
Used in that intentional way. Thank you very much. I just ask a supplementary question, particularly on the reception. baseline test. So I've heard examples just in recent weeks of a parent saying to me, I told my son to say, I'm not going to do it because we don't do screens in our house. And another parent who said, my child just doesn't know how to do anything on a screen because I've kept them away from it. So do you think there's this kind of. contradiction at the moment between the. government's purposeful. introduction of screen based baseline.
testing in. reception and the. messages that parents and educators in the early years are .
testing in. reception and the. messages that parents and educators in the early years are .
10:33
Caroline Voaden
-
-
Caroline Voaden
Receiving about children's. interaction with screens? Personally, I think I don't think so. I think it is important that technology is a part of our processes. Maybe my colleagues might disagree with me on that, but I you know, I don't think it's unreasonable. Those those data are really important for.
10:33
10:33
10:33
10:33
10:33
10:33
Caroline Voaden
-
-
Caroline Voaden
Because people tend to see it as a kind of all or nothing thing, but actually building that thing in that when it's. interactive and there are certain uses of technology, I think it should be there in the early years, and it does have a part to play. Of course, if there are children who perhaps haven't been exposed to technologies, that's a pedagogical question for teachers and local authorities. administering those tests. And we might want to think about how we support settings and supporting children to .
10:34
10:34
10:34
10:34
10:34
10:34
10:34
10:34
10:35
10:35
10:35
10:35
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
I think we should learn to. understand the pressures that I spoke earlier about the pressures of young children living in a different world. That is exactly the same for parents I was in. I was asked by the chief executive of one of our largest. supermarkets a little while ago, a few years ago, actually, to be fair, if I were to talk to their annual. conference on early years and I said, what about? And he said, how we can get more.
10:35
10:35
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Mums predominantly back into the working environment. And I said it was odd, but I I'll speak to them. I spoke to. 42 parents, mums, all mums. Every single one of them said that they were rushed back to work. They felt under pressure. They talked about how they were the ones getting up at. 530 or 6:00 in the morning, making the packed lunches for the children or whatever it happens to be, doing a full day's job, coming back in the evening and still preparing the meal. And they said they would spend an hour, perhaps no more, with their child predominantly in the bath, and they would buy them more sweets and more toys.
So long winded way of saying that we really have to understand the pressures that parents have. And as well as supporting early children within early years.
So long winded way of saying that we really have to understand the pressures that parents have. And as well as supporting early children within early years.
10:36
10:36
10:36
10:36
10:36
10:36
Mark Sewards
-
-
Mark Sewards
You'll know that we've focused a lot in our previous inquiries on send and improving send provision. Obviously, it's a big focus for the DfE as well, and there's very limited evidence out there that. states that AI and edtech can be used to close these gaps. But what written evidence we have been able to find is quite optimistic about it. So how optimistic should we be that we can use AI and edtech to close gaps, particularly for children with Send or additional learning needs? And what sort of opportunities should we be looking for to make sure we take advantage of this?
Happy to start .
Happy to start .
10:37
Caroline Voaden
-
-
Caroline Voaden
With anyone, but I was I was drawn to Professor Gibson. I think there's a lot of hype out there, to be honest, and I think the evidence is yet to really catch up with it. And at some point I started to get quite frustrated. I would go to conferences and they would say, oh, we're really worried about AI, except for autistic. children and kind of based on nothing more than an intuition quite often that this might be helpful.
So I think personally, I'd want to see a lot more in, in terms of like well.
So I think personally, I'd want to see a lot more in, in terms of like well.
10:38
10:38
10:38
10:38
Caroline Voaden
-
-
Caroline Voaden
Well, it's the case that provision should be needs led and not. diagnosis led, but it's quite hard to get a nuanced perspective on individual needs, and particularly with waiting times being what they are and the. complexity of integrating information from different sources for children with additional needs. I think AI tools can really help with kind of. profiling and. understanding children's needs. So I'm quite. optimistic from that point of view, but I would really stress that that.
collaborative bit with members of the community.
collaborative bit with members of the community.
10:38
10:38
10:39
10:39
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Any cause to be optimistic that we can improve inclusion in early years? I need to be hanging on to hope. So. I, I feel we should, because it's an unknown sort of position at the moment that perhaps there is hope. But what I would say this I don't think it is AI and EdTech that is driving inclusion. I think it is , frankly, policy. And it's the government's. prioritising of Send that is driving it as well as Ofsted in terms of looking at it in terms of an. inspection position. So it's much more of a defensive position as to why there's inclusion rather than edtech.
driving that. But I'm not saying I mean, I was in China with the Department for Business and Trade just a few weeks ago, and I saw some really good. edtech products, if used correctly, if.
driving that. But I'm not saying I mean, I was in China with the Department for Business and Trade just a few weeks ago, and I saw some really good. edtech products, if used correctly, if.
10:39
10:39
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Additional needs. Any that jump to mind right now, any that we should be aware of. I didn't brand them. So I, you know, it was all very secretive to say the least. But but they impressed me. Children that would go through with an educator would go through a routine and. effectively it would identify you're pushing this child way beyond what they're capable of at this moment in time.
10:40
10:40
10:40
10:40
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Mr. Wei. Anything in your working experience that would mean the term assistive technology has been around for a long time. And there are companies and there are resources that have been around. You know, I'm thinking about large push. buttons for children who can't use a keyboard, you know, extend, you know, special mouse track, trackball mouse. So I think in terms of that side.
10:41
10:41
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Children with special educational needs and my. experience of a child in my nursery where he had profound difficulties. And when we spoke to the, the physios and all the, all the people that supported him at TAC team around the child meeting, we it was expressed that he would get good support if he had like a tablet in the nursery setting, and obviously when I went to the IT department and said, oh, can I have a tablet for this child with. They went, what? And he went straight to the. Just just before the CEO to say, Mr.
Wei is requesting a tablet in the nursery setting, and I had to explain to the. department that the reason why it was requested by the. professional that they have it. It would support his his needs in in the nursery setting. And once I, you know, I pushed my case forward. We, we, we did actually get some funding from the local. authority to purchase it. And it was a huge benefit to this particular child. It allows him, it allowed him to engage with the other. children and allowed him to feel part of the nursery setting. And it was important.
So this is again, where we've got to look at the positives of such things like when as screen time, how it can children with various.
Wei is requesting a tablet in the nursery setting, and I had to explain to the. department that the reason why it was requested by the. professional that they have it. It would support his his needs in in the nursery setting. And once I, you know, I pushed my case forward. We, we, we did actually get some funding from the local. authority to purchase it. And it was a huge benefit to this particular child. It allows him, it allowed him to engage with the other. children and allowed him to feel part of the nursery setting. And it was important.
So this is again, where we've got to look at the positives of such things like when as screen time, how it can children with various.
10:42
10:42
10:42
10:42
10:43
10:43
10:43
10:43
10:43
Manuela Perteghella
-
-
Manuela Perteghella
Interest of time I'll leave it there. Thank you very much, Mark. Manuela. Thank you chair. We know that. developmental and educational. attainment gaps emerge before many. children even start primary school. And we heard at the beginning of the of the meeting about school readiness and the lack of being ready for school. So in your opinion, what role, if any, could AI and educational technology play in narrowing these gaps during the early years, or is there a risk that they will have an.
adverse and .
adverse and .
10:43
10:43
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And I start with Mr. Leach, please. I would say avoid it. I think the most important part of a child's development is their social and emotional development. And all the evidence points to the fact that children who are not socially and emotionally developed will struggle to learn. And so that for me would be the foundation. And social and emotional development is very much about hands on.
10:44
10:44
10:44
10:44
10:44
10:44
10:44
10:45
10:45
10:45
10:45
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Technology can support in that there. Wait. I think one of the concerns I have is that everyone seems generally. generalization that technology is. replacing play and there's a. There's lots of people having face offs, play versus technology. And I have a big concern about that because technology isn't. replacing play. It can be used to enhance it. And I think in terms of school readiness and you know, there's concerns about that, that name anyway. But what I'm thinking is if we're using the which again, I'm going to go back to the steam approach. I don't say Stem because I believe that art has a real place to play in early years.
I know the universities might not agree they prefer Stem, but I think you can do coding. You can do certain things. Critical thinking, learning. experiences at nursery level. using such as a, you know, sorry, there's other devices, but a bot or something like that to program. There's, you know, a wireless microscope where children can go into the garden and film, you know, the, you know, a plant and what the, what the deeper, deeper details of a plant look like. And that's exploration and investigation. And who doesn't want children to have good exploration and. investigation and critical thinking before we don't need to wait for them to go into schools to have to teach them critical thinking and exploration and investigation.
So I think it's about the intent, if the technology is used in the right way and it's the right.
I know the universities might not agree they prefer Stem, but I think you can do coding. You can do certain things. Critical thinking, learning. experiences at nursery level. using such as a, you know, sorry, there's other devices, but a bot or something like that to program. There's, you know, a wireless microscope where children can go into the garden and film, you know, the, you know, a plant and what the, what the deeper, deeper details of a plant look like. And that's exploration and investigation. And who doesn't want children to have good exploration and. investigation and critical thinking before we don't need to wait for them to go into schools to have to teach them critical thinking and exploration and investigation.
So I think it's about the intent, if the technology is used in the right way and it's the right.
10:46
10:46
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Does have a place and it's not. And it can be seen by children as play. I'm not I'm not one minute saying that we're trying to replace edtech with standard play resources. Like, as I said, Play-Doh, Lego bricks, whatever you name it. It's a tool. These are all tools. And we use tools to help children learn and develop. And technology is just one of those.
We're just not using it properly. As I say in A poor Workman blames his tool. We're blaming technology for failings in how it's used in nurseries. It's not the .
We're just not using it properly. As I say in A poor Workman blames his tool. We're blaming technology for failings in how it's used in nurseries. It's not the .
10:47
10:47
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Lack of training and development. You wanted to come. I just wanted to be absolutely clear that I wasn't. suggesting that throughout the entire early years, from 0 to 5, that we avoid edtech. I'm suggesting that the earliest point of a child's life where they are developing attachment, social, emotional.
10:47
10:47
10:48
10:48
10:48
10:48
10:48
10:48
10:48
10:48
10:48
10:48
10:49
10:49
10:49
10:49
10:49
Caroline Voaden
-
-
Caroline Voaden
You have any any view on that? Professor Gibson I think it's all about having a balanced play diet for young. children in the early years. They need to get out, they need to get dirty, they need to be picking up sticks. So they're learning that pencil grip without even knowing it, and drawing in the sands and squishing the Play-Doh. All of that is incredibly important. I also think appropriate tech materials can work really well for younger. children if they're in balance. And that's, that's the nuance that we really need to get. I'm not talking about watching short form videos on YouTube, for example.
I definitely wouldn't recommend that. So it's about finding the things that children can learn.
I definitely wouldn't recommend that. So it's about finding the things that children can learn.
10:49
10:50
10:50
10:50
10:50
10:50
Caroline Voaden
-
-
Caroline Voaden
I would be very, very wary of it. I don't know of any tech product that I would recommend at the moment for a child that age. So I'd definitely say let's. protect early childhood until we absolutely know what might be helpful or harmful. But I do think it's a matter of understanding what's good for children .
10:50
10:50
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Earliest years. Thank you. Any any other comments? When we think of I agree, obviously at the youngest age, we we just I mean, definitely I've already said I don't really particularly on AI in settings with children as such at the moment. I mean, the main one at the moment is smart speakers, but I think. There has. When you think of technology is. It basically is cause and effect. Like a pair of scissors is a form of technology. It's a scissors that helps you cut paper. And in its simplest form, in babies we've had, we've had, you know, Fisher-Price, other brands available, but we've had.
Fisher-Price causing effect toys in nursery settings for a long time. And I know there's a, there's been a drive to remove these. There's, we've gone through a phase of nurses not wanting plastic. Fantastic. And they want all wooden and. natural natural looking things. But cause and effect toys has been, I mean, around for quite a long time. And they're just getting a bit more advanced. So I think preschool probably be to get in terms of, you know, I wouldn't be expecting, you know, coding and toddlers to be doing coding, although they can do very basic.
coding with the right resource because I've, I've done it. But yeah, I think if we're getting them ready, as you said, in terms of moving into the next level and they're going to into primary, then certain things like coding, I think is. And certain toys that will do that and maths. So this is when I say the steam approach, if you've got science, technology, engineering, arts and maths in your thinking, when you're doing learning.
Fisher-Price causing effect toys in nursery settings for a long time. And I know there's a, there's been a drive to remove these. There's, we've gone through a phase of nurses not wanting plastic. Fantastic. And they want all wooden and. natural natural looking things. But cause and effect toys has been, I mean, around for quite a long time. And they're just getting a bit more advanced. So I think preschool probably be to get in terms of, you know, I wouldn't be expecting, you know, coding and toddlers to be doing coding, although they can do very basic.
coding with the right resource because I've, I've done it. But yeah, I think if we're getting them ready, as you said, in terms of moving into the next level and they're going to into primary, then certain things like coding, I think is. And certain toys that will do that and maths. So this is when I say the steam approach, if you've got science, technology, engineering, arts and maths in your thinking, when you're doing learning.
10:52
10:52
10:52
10:52
10:52
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:53
10:53
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Of all, you reacted first. Okay. I think they have limited. choices in terms of administration. It's fairly straightforward. You know, we, for example, will train all of our staff on the use of copilot. We use software management software that. integrates AI in terms of. producing development reports. ET cetera. ET cetera. But we focus predominantly, I suppose, on ensuring that those reports are appropriate.
So we don't just take them as read. They are monitored, they are vetted, etcetera, etcetera. When it comes to.
So we don't just take them as read. They are monitored, they are vetted, etcetera, etcetera. When it comes to.
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
10:54
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Particularly under the AI. So I would have the resource, the intention of how that. supports where where it can be supplied. And then a small example of how that resource can be used. And that's the thing because you can put a certain toy in front of. educators and they've got no idea like where to start because they need, they need training, they need to know what that resource does. They need time to play. When I say to educators, play with it, they look at me like, what do you mean? So they've got to play with it, understand it.
So they're able then to come up with the right. intention and how they're going to implement it. So I think that's important. There are there are companies out there that do really good. Neil has said before really good.
So they're able then to come up with the right. intention and how they're going to implement it. So I think that's important. There are there are companies out there that do really good. Neil has said before really good.
10:55
10:55
10:56
10:56
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Budgets and infrastructure. There's not a lot of money in in early years to get these things in. Sometimes the cost of them can be quite high. And that's also going to that's another setback. So the hesitancy around technology as a whole in the sector . And then obviously the hesitancy, because actually it's there's a cost implication. And, you know, when the budgets are so tight, can I get that? Not really.
If I get that, what happens to, you know, provisions or something else. So there's a budget implication and then there's training.
If I get that, what happens to, you know, provisions or something else. So there's a budget implication and then there's training.
10:56
10:56
10:56
10:56
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:57
10:58
10:58
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Who. understand child development, very young children's development, etc. and that doesn't secure the. position because we are still, you know, fairly ignorant, but it just gives us a little bit of. confidence that at least we're not dealing with a completely unknown quantity. But that's it's not the best .
10:58
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Way to do things, I would suggest. Yes. So safeguarding is big. Obviously, safeguarding is always a big thing. And I think in terms of AI. definitely there are safeguarding. concerns because there's a lack of awareness in in the sector around it. I think I think this is where maybe and I think as well, when something's not statutory, when it's not in, when it's not something that's.
10:58
10:58
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Nurseries generally will opt out of it because it's like it's a good to have. So, you know, it might be, it might be in the birth to five, it might be in something else. It might be in a really good book. But it's, it's as good to have because they're focusing on what does, what is Ofsted going to come and look at? What is somebody else going to come and look at? Are we going to be judged on that? Oh, there doesn't seem to be any need to be. concentrating on AI or cyber. You know, right now for me, cyber security in early years is massive .
And it's because there's no awareness of it in AI. You know, I said having smart speakers in the nursery is a massive. safeguarding issue. It's a listening device. We know it is, but nurseries will happily go and purchase them online and put them in the nursery without putting the right .
And it's because there's no awareness of it in AI. You know, I said having smart speakers in the nursery is a massive. safeguarding issue. It's a listening device. We know it is, but nurseries will happily go and purchase them online and put them in the nursery without putting the right .
10:59
10:59
10:59
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
Thank you very much for this panel. We'll go to Caroline Bowden. Thank you, chair. So just a little bit more on safeguarding. Mr. Leach, you said at the beginning that the government is all over physical safeguarding, but there's no support for emotional safeguarding. So I wonder, perhaps if you could tell us a little bit about the specific safeguarding risks that you think the increasing use of AI and edtech presents for young.
11:00
11:00
11:00
11:00
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Arrangements are adequate to manage this risk? I think the biggest risks are not within early years settings, actually, they are within homes. And and we see, as I've alluded to, I think the end result of that, where. basically there is a misuse of AI and technology. What I do think, and I come back to the point, is that. alongside training and. guidance for educators. So a lot of the things that we do in an early years setting, we share with parents, whether that be good.
11:00
11:00
11:00
11:00
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Whatever it happens to be. What I do not see at this particular point in time is any support being given by. educators to parents who are struggling basically with AI and edtech? And so the first point really is this should be part of an. educators formal training. They should. understand the risks associated with AI, the benefits associated with AI and edtech. But at the moment it's completely absent.
So I would integrate it into the training.
So I would integrate it into the training.
11:01
11:01
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Formal training. programmes and. expectations of early years educators. That would be a starting point. And then perhaps then we could do what we do with parents who are struggling to have their child, their children, eat vegetables or whatever. We share that good practice. At the moment, our educators are not really in a position .
11:01
11:01
11:02
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Dare I say. And I'm not trying. I'm not going to take the opportunity of making that case. But the reality is they are one of the most trusted. people in a family's life. They are not just their child's educator. They are their nutritionist. They are their health visitor. They are their benefits guidance. They are even, dare I say, their.
11:02
11:02
11:02
11:02
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
Status, better. recognition and more money. Okay. Thank you, and Mr. White. So just this week, it has come up in my office about a school school's moving to faceless marketing. So taking all the children's faces off all their marketing. materials because they're worried about the use of AI and those children being visible online. So I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about how you think parents can be given.
confidence that information about their children is being collected and used.
confidence that information about their children is being collected and used.
11:03
11:03
11:03
11:03
11:03
11:03
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
The relationship. between nursery and parent is essential. But, you know, we, we're, we're talking about. photographs and safeguarding. And online safety again, is something that not only do our educators need to be aware of, but we need to as settings, we need to make parents more aware of it because we all know September. That just went. All the parents that took a picture of the children in a new school. uniform outside the front door with door number, car registration plate and everything like that. So it's, you know, it's making them more aware of what they do.
I think nurseries of, you know, some nurseries are now, you know, really conscious about blocking out faces because, you know, with the, with the fake AI, fake. applications that can do horrible things. You know, there's really not nice people out there that will do horrible things with it. So and I think that for me, that's a real shame because when you're maybe looking at a photograph of your child on a learning journal or something, you would have liked to have seen their face or heard their voice, or just get a real sense of it. And, and.
I think nurseries of, you know, some nurseries are now, you know, really conscious about blocking out faces because, you know, with the, with the fake AI, fake. applications that can do horrible things. You know, there's really not nice people out there that will do horrible things with it. So and I think that for me, that's a real shame because when you're maybe looking at a photograph of your child on a learning journal or something, you would have liked to have seen their face or heard their voice, or just get a real sense of it. And, and.
11:04
11:04
11:04
11:04
Speaker 2
-
Speaker 2
Can't they? I mean, yeah, I mean, access to images that are not out there on the. Yeah. I mean, if you're using learning journal platforms and they're pretty secure so parents can get those photographs. But I think it's where. nurseries want to kind of share good practice or advertise what they do. So they might, you know, put a learning experience on Instagram, say, you know, you know, for a school might want to show you what, what we did in the forest and sometimes blocking the, you know, just seeing a child's hand is, you know, I'm hearing people saying, we're just going to show hands or we're just going to show this.
And I, for me, that's, that's the state we're in. That's quite sad. We just got to maybe come up with some kind of system where we can still do some of those old things, but just make it more safe. And that's, that's a tough one because .
And I, for me, that's, that's the state we're in. That's quite sad. We just got to maybe come up with some kind of system where we can still do some of those old things, but just make it more safe. And that's, that's a tough one because .
11:05
11:05
11:05
Caroline Voaden
-
-
Caroline Voaden
Gibson do you have anything more you'd like to add on safeguarding? I think there are risks. around poorly trained or poorly. guardrails models, generative AI models. So I think. We you know, there have been some quite high profile cases of toys that are got a generative AI component marketed to children than been found to be able to talk about things that children shouldn't, shouldn't be talking about. In my.
11:05
11:05
11:06
11:06
11:06
11:06
Rebecca Paul
-
-
Rebecca Paul
All over the world. Thank you, thank you. I think in the interest of time, I'm going to bring this session to a close. Thank you very much. It's been a fascinating session for us this morning. Lots of food for thought for the committee. If we can change over the panels as quickly as we can, that would be appreciated.
11:06
11:06
11:07
11:08
11:08
11:08
11:08
Rebecca Paul
-
-
Rebecca Paul
And I'm the author of two books on digital childhoods. Thank you very much. I'm Meg Moss. Hello, I am Meg Moss. I'm head of public affairs and. advocacy at the National Counselling and Psychotherapy Society. And I have been working for a number of years across a few different strands in terms of AI, especially from a.
11:08
11:08
11:09
11:09
11:09
Speaker 6
-
Speaker 6
You very much. Can I go to Doctor Aitken, please? Good morning. Thank you. Yes, I'm very Aitken. I am a co-founder and director at Rea Collective. Our AI collective is a community interest company that's focused on putting public voices and public interests at the heart of AI. And for the last six years, my research has focused particularly on children's relationships with AI and more broadly, digital.
11:09
11:09
11:09
11:09
11:10
11:10
11:10
Speaker 8
-
Speaker 8
Thank you very much. And Professor Blakemore. Oh, hi. I'm Sarah Jane Blakemore. I'm professor of. psychology and cognitive. neuroscience at Cambridge. Sorry I can't be there in person, but I have meetings here either side of this. I run a lab. I've run a lab for the last. 22 years, initially at UCL, now in Cambridge. On the development of the adolescent brain.
11:10
11:10
11:10
11:10
11:11
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
If I start with you, Professor Gray, I think it's really hard for us to know exactly what the impact is. It's a very. underfunded area. So we're spending about a per. I mean, this is back of an envelope. Figures that wouldn't pass the Treasury sniff test, but we're spending about. £3.50 a head on rolling out tech solutions, usually to improve things like teacher workload. efficiency and so on. And in comparison with spending about. £0.72 per head on. evaluating the impact of what we're doing. So there's an element of sort of the reverse order to what we might have wanted to do, but events have overtaken us.
We're to give it some broader context.
We're to give it some broader context.
11:11
11:12
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
Companies are spending about. 6,026 million USD per hour globally for all kinds of AI development and so on. And we know about the rapid pace of those developments. So it's leaving us really exposed. What we are seeing is very small scale studies often test bed type. studies that are looking at one. product with a limited sample of people and so on. That's better than nothing. But of course, versions change very. quickly and methodologies change very quickly in this field. And, and so it's, it's just a sort of trying to, to plug the dam with a finger really, and hoping that the, what's been described as the tsunami of AI isn't going .
11:12
11:12
11:12
11:13
11:13
Speaker 8
-
Speaker 8
That good quality. research takes months or years, whereas AI advances far, far quicker than that. So I think there's a kind of inherent problem at the moment in terms of trying to understand how current forms of AI are. influencing learning. By the time we know that the AI will have moved on to some other form, that is impossible to predict at the moment. So I think what in I think about this a lot and, and also in the in the context of social media. And I think what we need to do is turn to. research where we do know something which might be relevant, even indirectly relevant for AI.
So, for example, we know I can talk about this in more detail later if you're interested. But just to summarize, we know quite a lot about how the human brain. develops in childhood and adolescence. We know that the brain is highly. plastic during childhood and adolescence, which means that it is. particularly good at.
So, for example, we know I can talk about this in more detail later if you're interested. But just to summarize, we know quite a lot about how the human brain. develops in childhood and adolescence. We know that the brain is highly. plastic during childhood and adolescence, which means that it is. particularly good at.
11:14
11:14
11:14
11:14
11:14
11:14
Speaker 8
-
Speaker 8
AI and social media. So we can kind of assume that social media and AI are influencing the way the brain develops. If a child uses those things, and we know quite a lot about that, and quite a lot about how that might occur, we know quite a lot about how children and adolescents learn and what's necessary for learning. And we know about that. And this relates back to the neuroplasticity. We know about their.
developmental needs, like what kinds of.
developmental needs, like what kinds of.
11:14
11:14
11:15
11:15
Speaker 8
-
Speaker 8
And particularly in adolescents, although of course, social interaction is hugely important in childhood as well. We we know that it's really important for children and young people to engage in social interactions with real life people. We don't know what happens to development if those real life people are .
11:15
11:15
11:15
11:15
11:15
Rebecca Paul
-
-
Rebecca Paul
And hurting independent performance, which we can kind of extrapolate from that, the impact that that would be having. That was Carnegie Mellon University and Oxford University, along with MIT and UCLA. And, you know, so that that. persistence is that that's foundational to, to skill acquisition. So so we see that it's improving perhaps performance in the short term, but the negative effects are emerging after just ten minutes of use according to that study. So that's maybe not directly speaking to what is actually happening to young people. But but we can see that people are looking at what is actually happening to persistence and learning and the things that make knowledge sticky, that effort that we have to put in to, to learning things.
And there was a really, really interesting piece of work on the impact of AI on creativity for young people. So safer internet day research in February this year. So they spoke to. 8 to 17 year olds, and. 49% of them said that AI was making young people their age less creative. So and that's, that's. foundational to, to learning creativity is such an important part of our young people's, our brain development.
So nothing more,
And there was a really, really interesting piece of work on the impact of AI on creativity for young people. So safer internet day research in February this year. So they spoke to. 8 to 17 year olds, and. 49% of them said that AI was making young people their age less creative. So and that's, that's. foundational to, to learning creativity is such an important part of our young people's, our brain development.
So nothing more,
11:17
11:17
11:17
Speaker 6
-
Speaker 6
Interesting research going on. Thank you and Doctor Aitken. Yeah. Thank you. I suppose just just a few points to add on to what I've already said. I'll try not to to to repeat. I guess the first thing to say is just, you know, it's important to, to remember that children and young people are an incredibly diverse group. I mean, it could couldn't possibly be a more diverse group, right? It's includes so many different.
11:17
11:17
11:17
11:17
Speaker 6
-
Speaker 6
So many different factors that that shape or change, the ways that they. experience the technologies and what the impacts of those technologies are. And I think that's really, really important to remember that we don't think of children and young people as a homogenous group. I think also when we think about the impacts of of AI within education, it's also important to recognise that children and young people are interacting or. experiencing AI in many parts of their lives. And so the impacts within education can, can neatly be separated from the ways they're also experiencing or interacting with digital technologies and AI outside of formal education settings.
And that includes things around exposure to AI generated content.
And that includes things around exposure to AI generated content.
11:18
11:18
Speaker 6
-
Speaker 6
And the challenges that that presents for critical thinking, for having the ability to reliably identify what what is real, what is potentially AI generated. I think also, as others have already said, there is a lot of research into a lot established evidence base around what works well in education and what we already know about children's cognitive development, emotional development, social development. I think it's really, really important not to be swept up with the hype around AI. and edtech. A lot of the kind of a lot of the discourse around edtech and AI is really driven by, by, by the hype around these.
technologies rather than not necessarily grounded in a sound understanding of what is needed within educational context. And I think it's really, really important that we start from that perspective and focus squarely on children's wellbeing, children's needs, and, and,
technologies rather than not necessarily grounded in a sound understanding of what is needed within educational context. And I think it's really, really important that we start from that perspective and focus squarely on children's wellbeing, children's needs, and, and,
11:19
Mark Sewards
-
-
Mark Sewards
Thank you very much. I'm going to go to Mark next. Thank you very much, chair. I heard quite a bit from you so far about the lack of evidence. And we've discovered that there's just no evidence about the long term. impact of AI on children's cognitive development. So my question really is all about what the government should do. Should the government adopt a more.
11:19
11:19
11:20
11:20
11:20
11:20
11:20
11:20
11:20
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
Some of what's going wrong seems to be, I think, partially rooted in the machinery of government change, that you've had the sort of. responsibility of AI. moving within a relatively short time period. And education. AI is never really a priority. And there's a disconnect between those two. departments and the Department for education. There's a really serious.
11:20
11:20
11:21
11:21
11:21
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
Completely separate from the kind of school version of that. And there's not the connection with the sort of business end and the operational end either. And unless that. communication problem is solved, we will get absolutely nowhere. So that's priority one. And we really have to commit to that. And it has to have a proper seat at the table. And then on the back end of that, we need properly commissioned. longitudinal research with input from DCMs, best, DfE and beyond, so that we spend a you know, this is a sort of. intergenerational change. Childhood is changing.
We need.
We need.
11:21
11:21
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
To assess the impact, and we have to look at really long period of time. So this needs to be a new, very serious. longitudinal study that. complements the ones that the country already runs. And we need to be looking at things like retained learning, not whether they retain it in in minutes or hours or days, but, you know, over.
11:22
11:22
11:22
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
Emotional development, and so on. So it needs to be quite. sophisticated and we need to report results by things like age and disadvantage. So we have to move away from seeing how people do in tests via an input output model. And we have to take a much longer view. And then on the back end of that, we need to develop proper procurement standards, because at the moment there's no evidence base for most of them. And there's a lot of very hard commercial. pressure put on schools. We have local management of schools in this country. We've had that since 1988.
Our schools have wonderful control over budgets, which does a lot of good, but it also means they're.
Our schools have wonderful control over budgets, which does a lot of good, but it also means they're.
11:22
11:22
11:23
11:23
11:23
11:23
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
With proper underpinning research about the. uncertainty that's involved in the use, and whilst preserving children's access to the human side of things. Which brings me to my final point. We need to safeguard children's access to any systems that offer emotional or therapeutic support. Most of those are modeled on.
11:23
11:23
11:23
11:23
11:23
11:23
11:24
Jodie Gosling
-
-
Jodie Gosling
Basically all of that. How long will this research take to produce? So you're going to need to start looking at what happens through a child's primary. cycle and then secondary cycle. Then you need to be looking at across a cycle. So we're already at seven and 14 years. And then you're looking at. generational effects 20 years. So what we're funding at the moment is what happens in three months, what happens in six months, you know, EEF are very good at saying, well, they're, you know, they might have made two months extra progress with this product.
That's a medical model of research. There's no way we can assess every or even a typical sample of the products that are out there. If our starting point is, well, somebody might make eight weeks, eight weeks, eight weeks, more progress. And what's eight weeks, right? And what's eight weeks in terms of a global. conceptualisation of child development or education? So that's a very policy driven model .
That's a medical model of research. There's no way we can assess every or even a typical sample of the products that are out there. If our starting point is, well, somebody might make eight weeks, eight weeks, eight weeks, more progress. And what's eight weeks, right? And what's eight weeks in terms of a global. conceptualisation of child development or education? So that's a very policy driven model .
11:24
11:24
11:25
Rebecca Paul
-
-
Rebecca Paul
Thinking ahead. Okay. Incredibly helpful. Thank you. Meg, anything to add? I just I want to say that I wholeheartedly support everything that professor Leaton Gray has said. I would add that one of the things that I've been calling for for some time is longitudinal research on resilience agency and relational.
11:25
11:25
11:25
11:25
11:25
11:25
Rebecca Paul
-
-
Rebecca Paul
I think. But I think we also need to have risk stratification. So the different types of AI that are used, I think we need to think carefully. about the different risks they involve. So for example, Professor Gray talked about therapeutic use. I think that has to be perhaps one of the most high risk ways of using that.
11:26
11:26
11:26
11:26
Rebecca Paul
-
-
Rebecca Paul
And there are so many different hidden harms that can sit within, like relational, therapeutic AI tools that we just don't have visibility of. And especially for young people who don't have the same context of the world that adults might have, they won't be aware of any harms that might be coming to them because, because they don't have the benefit of, of our years of understanding of what is what feels right and what feels wrong. I think we have the government has a safeguarding duty for, especially for children and young people. But I would extend that to everybody.
around the use of AI and how that is implemented. But I don't I don't think that regulation is necessarily always the answer. I think that we need to be. investing in educating people around this. I think we need to consider public awareness of what AI can do, what its risks are, what its. limitations are. I think we need to consider what our goals are for. education and for mental health of young people. Where do we want to be in 10 or 15 years time and work back from there as to what we will allow the technology to do?
We are in such a an odd position with this technology because unlike a lot of the technologies where we've had. So, for example, like the invention of writing, it has. We're constantly thinking about what more could we do with it. We now have to think, how can we put boundaries in place with this? What can. What less can we do? What you know, how can we put this in a box and limit it, which I think is a very unique.
challenge for us as a society. It's going to be impossible to to kind of.
around the use of AI and how that is implemented. But I don't I don't think that regulation is necessarily always the answer. I think that we need to be. investing in educating people around this. I think we need to consider public awareness of what AI can do, what its risks are, what its. limitations are. I think we need to consider what our goals are for. education and for mental health of young people. Where do we want to be in 10 or 15 years time and work back from there as to what we will allow the technology to do?
We are in such a an odd position with this technology because unlike a lot of the technologies where we've had. So, for example, like the invention of writing, it has. We're constantly thinking about what more could we do with it. We now have to think, how can we put boundaries in place with this? What can. What less can we do? What you know, how can we put this in a box and limit it, which I think is a very unique.
challenge for us as a society. It's going to be impossible to to kind of.
11:27
11:28
11:28
11:28
11:28
Speaker 8
-
Speaker 8
Much, Professor Blakemore. Anything to add to what's already been said? Oh, I'm not very much other than just a bit of a more of a focus on. social development. So we know that, you know, from, from birth onwards, children and adolescents. require social interaction in order for their social brains to develop and to develop an understanding of other people and an ability to. interact with others.
And. The use of AI, we don't really know how that affects social.
And. The use of AI, we don't really know how that affects social.
11:28
11:28
Speaker 8
-
Speaker 8
But we need to leave space for social development and also oracy. So the ability to. articulate ideas without the use of AI in real time, the ability to make an argument, to listen to other people, to incorporate others ideas into your views and to work with peers. These are all really. important tasks that we need to develop. And given that the child and adolescent brain is incredibly.
11:29
11:29
Speaker 8
-
Speaker 8
These are this is like a critical period of development in which we need to be exposed to social interaction in order to develop those skills. We don't really. understand how. replacing real life people with AI will affect the development of those skills, but we can assume that it will affect us somehow because of the because of the. neuroplasticity and the way the brain is developing and incorporating environmental input. But yeah, just to go back to the point I made very briefly earlier about AI bots, that's one thing that I'm interested in because of our.
11:29
11:29
11:29
11:29
11:29
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
To attribute mental states to other people and other other things. In fact. So we we do this all the time. We attribute things like emotions and intentions and beliefs to other people, but we also attribute those things to cartoon characters and book. and even inanimate objects. If they look animate or if they have a face or that kind of thing. So we readily attribute mental states. So we also can assume that we will attribute mental states to AI bots.
And this ability to attribute mental states develops throughout childhood and.
And this ability to attribute mental states develops throughout childhood and.
11:30
11:30
11:30
11:30
11:30
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
Anything you think the government should do that hasn't already been covered? Well, just to pick up on the point of, of you need to take a cautious approach to the rollout or adoption of, of AI technologies within education settings. And, and picking up on Professor Layton, Greg's point about the significant commercial pressures that many schools are facing, we see this across across a wide range of industries and policy areas that there is such a lot of hype around AI that in many cases we're seeing AI deployed kind of for the sake of deploying an AI system, right?
And there's lots of industries that are pushing the idea that AI is going to lead to significant efficiency gains or significant benefits within particular industries. And I think often what we see in. education is these claims being made around AI enabled edtech offerings in ways that are I mean, within education settings, there are significant resource constraints. Teachers are under enormous pressure, enormous pressure in terms of their time and resources available. And within that context, claims are being made around the ways that AI, AI technologies are going to address those challenges. But often these technologies that are being pushed are kind of general purpose AI.
And there's lots of industries that are pushing the idea that AI is going to lead to significant efficiency gains or significant benefits within particular industries. And I think often what we see in. education is these claims being made around AI enabled edtech offerings in ways that are I mean, within education settings, there are significant resource constraints. Teachers are under enormous pressure, enormous pressure in terms of their time and resources available. And within that context, claims are being made around the ways that AI, AI technologies are going to address those challenges. But often these technologies that are being pushed are kind of general purpose AI.
11:31
11:31
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
AI systems that are being developed to do lots of different things and are now being marketed as something that's going to solve problems within education. But I think it's really, really. important that we avoid kind of being swept up in some of that hype around, around AI, and instead always start from the perspective of. identifying what are the challenges we're seeking to address, what are the challenges that are being faced, and what solutions are needed. Very often, perhaps most often, AI will not be the appropriate solution to address those challenges, but we need to start from that perspective of addressing, identifying, and addressing clear challenges and problems and finding the appropriate.
11:32
11:32
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
Rather than necessarily being swept up in this idea that AI provides a solutions to everything, or the kind of commercial interests that are driving this investment in, in AI, which are not often not not developed with, with the particular expertise in education or children's development or children's wellbeing that are needed .
11:32
11:32
Peter Swallow
-
-
Peter Swallow
Thank you very much, everybody. Thank you. I will go next. Thank you very much. We've talked a lot this morning about where we don't have. evidence or enough evidence, but one data point that we do have, helpfully, are the latest Pisa results, which suggest that higher performing pupils tend to be those who are not using AI. The teenagers are losing the skills that matter the most, such as critical. evaluation of information. So I want to invite everyone to to think about how the current school. curriculum might be adapted to ensure that pupils continue to develop independent thinking and other essential.
skills to navigate and thrive in a future with AI. Professor Blakemore, perhaps start with you, since you have helpfully already mentioned the word of the week, which is .
skills to navigate and thrive in a future with AI. Professor Blakemore, perhaps start with you, since you have helpfully already mentioned the word of the week, which is .
11:33
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Oracy, I wonder if you wanted to just expand a little bit more. Yeah, so I, when I was listening to you, I thought, that's exactly right. Like, you know, AI might be able to. And by the way, this is this is slightly speculative because I don't, as I said, I don't I haven't got I haven't done research in this precise area, but AI might be very useful for providing certain information and even learning about about that information.
But does it enable children and adolescents to develop their critical thinking skills, their reasoning, their.
But does it enable children and adolescents to develop their critical thinking skills, their reasoning, their.
11:34
11:34
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
And their oracy, which are just such an important skills? And also combined with the fact that we have to think about the. future of the. workplace and what kind of skills will be important for humans to have in workplaces that are full of AI. And those are the kinds of skills that, although actually AI is pretty good at those kinds of things already, but those kinds of skills are, are the only skills left in a way that are that, that humans will be able to really excel at, but how can they excel at that if they're not practicing it during the sensitive period or critical period of development in childhood and adolescence?
So even if schools adopt AI, and I totally agree with Doctor Aitken and other comments that have been made about the pressures on schools to adopt AI very rapidly. But even if they do, there should be a lot of time and resources put towards the development of social.
So even if schools adopt AI, and I totally agree with Doctor Aitken and other comments that have been made about the pressures on schools to adopt AI very rapidly. But even if they do, there should be a lot of time and resources put towards the development of social.
11:35
11:35
11:35
11:35
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
Develop those skills. Doctor Aiken yeah. Yeah. Certainly we know that more and more children and young people are are using AI tools as a source of information. And there's been a growing evidence base around that. Not not just children, but adults as well. And increasingly using AI tools as a source of information as an alternative to search engines. So there's evidence that that many people are using ChatGPT, for example, as an alternative to a search engine. But even if even when children and young people are searching for information on a search engine, there are AI summaries that are providing a kind of a the quick summary at the beginning.
And there's real risks that these are these are attractive kind of. shortcuts to accessing information, but they're shortcuts that are prone to providing inaccurate.
And there's real risks that these are these are attractive kind of. shortcuts to accessing information, but they're shortcuts that are prone to providing inaccurate.
11:36
11:36
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
Misleading information, and in some, in some cases, including misinformation and disinformation. I think it's a really, really critical challenge that within education, that we're equipping children and young people with skills and critical thinking, with an understanding of what good evidence looks like, how to. identify reliable and trustworthy sources. And this is absolutely fundamental. And when we talk to children and young people, when we teach children and young people about AI, it's really important that we're that we're focusing on critical AI literacy, right? So it's not just teaching children and young people what AI is or how they could potentially use it or what what it does or how it's developed that really helping them to.
understand the.
understand the.
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
11:37
Peter Swallow
-
-
Peter Swallow
Evidence in this area. Clearly more research needed, though, if I can sort of briefly extrapolate from both of those answers. It's both the skills in things that AI can't do and the skills to use AI safely. Professor Leaton Gray, if I can come to you, and maybe also if you could just touch a little bit on how Pisa rankings are changing in in future years and how that might also, you know, as a sort of a .
11:37
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Feedback loop help to shape the future of, of education. I'm not a expert, but I know that it's periodically changed in each iteration so that it tries to be relevant. And I know that there's worldwide decline in reading skills. And this is of significant concern because that's seen as a sort of central plank, not only of education but also democracy. So obviously great concern there. And I know that at the moment Pisa results have been.
11:38
11:38
11:38
11:38
11:38
11:38
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
A little bit better than many other countries, comparator countries, but there's still work to do. I think what we're seeing is a step change in probably how we should. conceive the role of. education in a democracy and society. I think there's early. indications that if young people are. trained carefully in how to use AI tools. dialogically and, you know, with a sort of critical awareness of the. parameters and guardrails that they need to put there for themselves, a lot of the time, that it might be a very useful tool for. expanding people's view of the world and other societies and things like that, and to help construct knowledge and new forms of knowledge so that you're not just limited to what's on your, your doorstep or available in your school or what you've experienced before.
But it is a little bit, as I was saying to some postgraduates, I was training yesterday. It's a little bit like putting a toddler on a Harley Davidson motorbike. You know, you've got to be a little bit careful and work up to that wonderful moment. And so there's a lot of backfilling that that needs to be done to our curriculum so that we can encourage that kind of interaction. But we also need to do that so that we keep the models fresh, because at the.
But it is a little bit, as I was saying to some postgraduates, I was training yesterday. It's a little bit like putting a toddler on a Harley Davidson motorbike. You know, you've got to be a little bit careful and work up to that wonderful moment. And so there's a lot of backfilling that that needs to be done to our curriculum so that we can encourage that kind of interaction. But we also need to do that so that we keep the models fresh, because at the.
11:39
11:39
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
There's a risk of a sort of negative. cycle in that less and less human input is put into a model, and you end up with a kind of. technological model collapse. And that can happen in 7 or 8 cycles. So you need the sort of freshness of human thought and innovation and. interaction to, to keep them relevant, actually. Otherwise they serve no purpose whatsoever. And the final, final point is coming back to the commercial involvement there.
We're kind of almost in a golden era of AI before a lot of these tools are driven by.
We're kind of almost in a golden era of AI before a lot of these tools are driven by.
11:40
11:40
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
As we saw with the early days of the internet. And so when when that comes in, you're getting a kind of bias to the information and so on. Well, in excess of what we're seeing now from existing training models. And that's where. regulation of certain products for certain categories of society can be quite.
11:40
11:40
11:40
11:41
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Issue where you have, you know, the really excellent stuff they often can't access or the most up to date stuff because that's a paid for service or subscription model. And so that needs some resolution as well, so that what's out there can be high quality and not just the leftovers. When corporate .
11:41
Peter Swallow
-
-
Peter Swallow
Models have have sort of asset stripped the knowledge very, very briefly because I don't want to take up too much of the committee's time, but you've sort of set out there how AI models need to change to fit education. But you've only teased us a little bit, I think, with how education needs to change to fit to an AI world. You mentioned there the importance of reading to democracy. For example. I wonder if you could just very briefly set out a bit more about how you think.
education needs .
education needs .
11:41
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
To change rather than AI. I think come back to the word dialogic. So it's about and this is where Oracy has been quite an interesting development, because that kind of went away for a bit and it's coming back now. So it's the idea that you have a. sophisticated ability to interact either with humans or devices. And so there's something called there's different kinds of network theory that apply here where you see the computer as kind of another thing in the.
11:42
11:42
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
But it's actually quite heavily populated by humans. And so that's a kind of way that we might start to think about the curriculum. So you might want to, you know, develop systems so that, that you're not just confined to the expertise in your particular school and that you're thinking patterns are tracked in the sort of medium to long term by very. sophisticated AI based systems. So, for example, we're starting a study at UCL where we're looking at we have a corpus of knowledge where children have written about their. understandings of the Holocaust. And so we're trying to tease out from that how their thinking develops over years, really in.
11:42
11:42
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
You know, really large themes as they become more mature as. people and as they go through adolescence. What's the impact of that on their, their learning? And by tracking that, then we can start to intervene. So if you've got skilled. teachers able to take an overview of large data sets of. children doing this, then you can, you know, tweak what you're offering in the. classroom and tweak what you're offering for particular year groups or even classes of.
children to try and promote the better aspects of that through the use of these.
children to try and promote the better aspects of that through the use of these.
11:43
11:43
11:43
11:43
Caroline Johnson
-
-
Caroline Johnson
Time at this point, so very briefly, we'll try and keep it brief. I would like to see some. introduction of greater relational skills within the. curriculum as we see social. offloading happening a lot for young people in terms of, you know, putting their relational issues. into ChatGPT or any kind of AI and dealing with social issues that way. I think The Good Childhood Report came out this week, and it talked about how.
important belonging and well-being are, how important belonging is for wellbeing, and how important cohesive community is. And it strikes me that those.
important belonging and well-being are, how important belonging is for wellbeing, and how important cohesive community is. And it strikes me that those.
11:44
11:44
11:44
11:44
11:44
Mark Sewards
-
-
Mark Sewards
And I can leave it there. That's fine. Thank you. I'll combine my two questions and then invite. responses if you feel you have something to say on it. So how. important are. perseverance learning from mistakes to delayed. gratification in education? I can imagine the answer to that. So is there a risk that AI and edtech tools are going to impact and undermine those aspects of the learning process? We've heard, and I know for a fact that more durable learning comes from learners who have to struggle with a problem before they then eventually resolve it. I saw it as a maths teacher in the classroom.
I went through it when I was training to be a maths teacher. Isn't there a risk that AI and edtech is going to .
I went through it when I was training to be a maths teacher. Isn't there a risk that AI and edtech is going to .
11:45
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Undermine this entire process? So that's opened up to whoever wants it. Please. I think you're talking about different types of delayed gratification. One of the things that I think we're a little bit too good at is rewarding conscientiousness. And that's people that can sit there and plod through something. There's a different kind of delayed.
11:45
11:45
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Learning where you set your own task and you disappear down a rabbit hole. And you, you come out with. something profoundly different at the end of it, and with the right. guardrails and the right technologies in place, we can encourage new forms of that so that you can either, you know, work with children that are struggling to understand certain parts of the curriculum and just let them really explore aspects of learning with a degree of support that a tireless AI can give you, or at the at the other end of the scale, where they can just progress much more rapidly because they're not having to, to wait for teachers to set tasks or ferret about in a library for something or a limited education platform, something, you know, you've got a vast resource there.
And so this auto.
And so this auto.
11:46
11:46
11:46
11:46
11:46
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
AI as well, tireless, tireless, can just keep asking questions. Well, I mean, it's there and you can go back the next day and carry on the chat and you can have it there as a kind of a digital helpmate if you want. I mean, you know, where it's been used really well by. students at UCL. They're telling it the kind of bot they want it to be and they're telling it what their problem is, you know, so I'm stuck on this. I feel a little bit imposter syndrome about this, you know, or I don't quite understand this aspect of my, you know, maths or whatever.
And, and they train the AI to be the thing they need it to be and then work with it over a longer period of time and much more intensively than even with a peer study group or even 1 to 1 supervisions with staff. And so it's beautifully complementary. And so the more clued in, clued up. students are getting. profoundly enhanced benefits from this. The problem is , how do we make that more.
universal rather than just leave it to a kind of wild west of who .
And, and they train the AI to be the thing they need it to be and then work with it over a longer period of time and much more intensively than even with a peer study group or even 1 to 1 supervisions with staff. And so it's beautifully complementary. And so the more clued in, clued up. students are getting. profoundly enhanced benefits from this. The problem is , how do we make that more.
universal rather than just leave it to a kind of wild west of who .
11:47
Caroline Johnson
-
-
Caroline Johnson
Do this? Exactly, exactly right. Any further contributions on this point? Can I just speak about the relational elements as well? Obviously, in a therapeutic context, we have a concept of rupture and repair, which means that when two people face a difficult situation together, perhaps they have a disagreement. Perhaps there is betrayal, there is hurt on one of those parts, those those two people make steps together to repair that relationship. And that is effort. That is work. But that is the thing that negotiation within that. relationship is the thing that makes it develop and makes those two people as, as.
humans grow. So I would say from that relational side of things as well, for young people, I think it's really important that we focus on how vital friction and effort and.
humans grow. So I would say from that relational side of things as well, for young people, I think it's really important that we focus on how vital friction and effort and.
11:48
11:48
11:49
11:49
Jess Asato
-
-
Jess Asato
How might the growing use of AI and edtech, including these tutoring tools, affect the nature of the teacher pupil relationship? I'm quite interested also in how teachers , you know, cope when so much work is now being produced with AI, they won't necessarily always know whether it's original work or not.
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:49
11:50
11:50
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Pupils, teachers and so on, all involved in the creation of what the AI tutoring. system is built around and what can offer, it's likely to be much more relevant to particular. circumstances than a generic bought in model, which is often quite. They're often quite US centric for a start, and, you know, a little bit less tailored to the, the sort of what's actually happening in. particular schools and situations. And I think that's the missing link in a lot of our curriculum work in the past that we've sort of there's a concept called policy tourism. You sort of see that there's something good happening over there and you bring it back to Britain.
Instead of having these home grown, home developed solutions with this .
Instead of having these home grown, home developed solutions with this .
11:50
Caroline Johnson
-
-
Caroline Johnson
Really deep grassroots involvement. My my thoughts around that are I worry about the. safeguarding risks of introducing AI tutors because we we know that through the disinhibition effect, young people are more likely to. disclose an issue to to someone who is not in a position of authority to do something about that. Anonymity really drives disclosures. And it also could be something that might not be a reportable event in and of itself. So they could say. something that , to an AI tutor , wouldn't flag any safeguarding risks. But for an adult who was in that young person's life, it may raise flags.
So my concern is how do we make sure that those AI tutors are can do that job in a very boundaried way that doesn't. encourage young. people to. offload some of those slightly more. emotional aspects of their lives. Again, that's that's a question for how that software is developed. But I think that's a .
So my concern is how do we make sure that those AI tutors are can do that job in a very boundaried way that doesn't. encourage young. people to. offload some of those slightly more. emotional aspects of their lives. Again, that's that's a question for how that software is developed. But I think that's a .
11:52
Jess Asato
-
-
Jess Asato
Really pressing risk that we need to thoroughly consider. Is there a risk that if the sycophancy of AI becomes really attractive to young people, that actually they may prefer their 1 to 1 a, I tutor to their teacher who may give them too much challenge. Is there a concern about how a teacher might sort of. negotiate that situation or scenario?
11:52
11:52
11:52
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
And there's perhaps a distinction between whether a child or young person is engaging with a , a bespoke kind of virtual tutor, which has been designed to, for a limited purpose around tutoring in a particular educational purpose, or whether they're engaging with a more general AI chatbot or AI companion. And we know that many young people are using chatbots or AI. companions as a source of educational support. And definitely the sycophancy is a very, very real risk, a risk that, you know, these these AI companions are designed to have unconditional positive regard. So always to affirm the user's perspective, the user's feelings, to always kind of back them up.
But that can lead to very unhelpful relationships. It can lead to them giving harmful advice. It can lead to them reinforcing harmful ideas. So it's a very real set of risks there. I think in the case of virtual tutors, there are also wider risks around equity and access, equity and access to to education and 1 to 1 support. There's a lot of claims made that AI virtual tutors are going to lead to greater equity in access to education and access to personalised.
But that can lead to very unhelpful relationships. It can lead to them giving harmful advice. It can lead to them reinforcing harmful ideas. So it's a very real set of risks there. I think in the case of virtual tutors, there are also wider risks around equity and access, equity and access to to education and 1 to 1 support. There's a lot of claims made that AI virtual tutors are going to lead to greater equity in access to education and access to personalised.
11:53
11:53
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
And we know that personalised tutoring brings enormous. benefits in terms of educational attainment. But many of these virtual tutors are tools, AI systems that are used to collect vast amounts of data that bring significant privacy risks, that are often commercial models that are collecting data for marketing or advertising purposes, or for training of of for future AI models. They may at times provide inaccurate responses. They may at times provide, although it's.
11:54
11:54
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
It's sort of it's based on data and metrics rather than an. understanding of the individual learner, the individual student and what motivates them, what what they need to support them best in education. And that really highlights the importance of. relationships between tutors and learners or between. teachers and learners. I think there's a very real risk here that if virtual tutors are seen as a way of of cutting costs in the provision of tutoring, and there have been suggestions that this is a way of, of enabling the rollout of virtual tutors, of tutors to, to reach significantly larger numbers of students, but.
potentially providing tutors that are not as capable of doing that well as a real human tutor. So actually, there's a risk here that it reinforces existing inequity or creates new. inequities where those who can afford to have a real human tutor still can. And that's a tutor that can have empathy, that can understand the student, that can motivate them more, that can share.
potentially providing tutors that are not as capable of doing that well as a real human tutor. So actually, there's a risk here that it reinforces existing inequity or creates new. inequities where those who can afford to have a real human tutor still can. And that's a tutor that can have empathy, that can understand the student, that can motivate them more, that can share.
11:55
11:55
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
You know, including. reflections on how to handle exam stress or what motivates them, what excites them about the subjects they study. And, you know, the real human dimensions that can much better motivate an individual student or provide that kind of that connection and, and support. Whereas virtual tutors present risks for privacy, they present risks for safety, as has already been mentioned, and may lead to a less valuable or. beneficial tutoring experience.
So I think there's a lot to consider here in .
So I think there's a lot to consider here in .
11:55
Helen Hayes
-
-
Helen Hayes
Terms of equity as well as in terms of, of young people's safety. I'm really sorry. I'm going to have to ask. The answers are much more concise going forward, or we're not going to get through the top the important topics that we want to cover before we get to the end of the session. We have very, very little time left. There will obviously be an opportunity for you to write to us with anything that we can't cover in the session, but if I can make a .
11:56
Jess Asato
-
-
Jess Asato
Plea for brevity, that would be really appreciated. Thank you. Back to you. Just got a quick question, I guess, about the actual. information that I might be giving to children and young people, given that there are now lots of studies that show that it can often be biased, particularly in terms of. sexism and. racism and other. discriminatory forms. Elements are obviously based on human nature.
And do you worry that if children are relying on this as the source of truth when they're asking.
And do you worry that if children are relying on this as the source of truth when they're asking.
11:56
11:56
11:56
11:56
11:56
11:56
11:56
11:56
11:56
11:57
11:57
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
It's going to be more difficult for them to be rendered useful than if they're using a sophisticated product that's specifically designed for, for example, a schooling or education or developmental context. So that, you know, it kind of depends what's been bought into and what they're being offered. But yes, there's, there's the same dangers with looking at cheap or free products that are very. generalist as with anything else on the internet or indeed in society, you know, so that's an issue.
And in terms of romantic.
And in terms of romantic.
11:57
11:57
11:57
11:57
11:57
11:57
11:58
11:58
11:58
11:58
11:58
11:58
Caroline Johnson
-
-
Caroline Johnson
Facing in our country, when they're made in other countries with different laws and rules? Yeah, I think that's a really good it's a it's a global problem. We're not we're not facing this problem alone. And I think we could be working internationally to tackle some of that. But to bring it, to bring it home, there's a lot of conversation at the moment about spaces for young. people and, and, you know, bringing back young people, young people's hubs, youth clubs, places where they can connect with peers and other trusted adults. So we could. inject some of that relationality.
And I think that's where the government is moving towards, inject that. relationality back into young people's lives. So they have those positive role models. But at the same time, like, absolutely, we have to be working globally to tackle what is a, a threat that we just we can't face that alone. There are. organizations I can only speak from a mental health perspective, but the American Psychological Association, in conjunction with orca, who are a UK based.
And I think that's where the government is moving towards, inject that. relationality back into young people's lives. So they have those positive role models. But at the same time, like, absolutely, we have to be working globally to tackle what is a, a threat that we just we can't face that alone. There are. organizations I can only speak from a mental health perspective, but the American Psychological Association, in conjunction with orca, who are a UK based.
12:00
12:00
12:00
12:00
12:00
12:00
12:00
12:00
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
In adolescents. So they put friendships are protective against adolescents developing mental health problems. And I'm talking about real life friendships with humans. But now that AI bots will give young people advice and. reassurance and, and they're there for them whenever they like. And they and so young people who struggle with real life relationships might find it easier to turn to an AI bot. And in a way, former friendship with an AI bot. We don't know how that affects our resilience. I mean, we would probably hypothesize that it won't it won't provide them with the same level as resilience, as a real life friendship.
But we don't actually know that. But yes, I mean, that that's an area that is of .
But we don't actually know that. But yes, I mean, that that's an area that is of .
12:01
12:01
12:01
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
Can we go to Doctor Atkin, please. Thank you. Yeah, I think I think what's really important here is that these are seen as tools that support teachers and facilitate relationships between teachers and students rather than. Rather than have a negative impact on or reduce the, the authority or the influence of the teacher to, to make decisions about a child's learning. There's a risk here that our personalized learning tools that are based on, on tracking data and metrics about learning. It makes decisions or informs decisions about a child's learning, which are based purely on data and metrics, rather than an understanding of that child's.
12:02
12:02
Speaker 3
-
Speaker 3
Of their needs of, of, and of their. relationships that impact it. So I think what's really, really important is that these are tools that are, if they're used well, they're tools that support teachers in those roles, but not to diminish the teacher's ability to make those decisions or to facilitate relationships. These decisions need to be based on on relationships and understanding of individual .
12:03
12:03
12:03
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
Like facial expressions and mannerisms. So, so in terms of forming kind of personal learning relationships with pupils and maybe picking up on their wellbeing or other things going on in their lives, teachers are really vital. Human teachers are really vital to pick up on those forms of non-verbal communication that currently AI can't or doesn't do. And, and that , that. So, so I think personalized learning is important. We've, you know, we've been talking about that for many years, but it.
can't .
can't .
12:03
12:03
12:03
12:03
12:03
12:04
12:04
12:04
12:04
12:04
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
Up to anybody across the panel. Professor, it could be. profoundly useful as long as it doesn't set a ceiling on achievement. So one of the dangers with these tools is they keep looping back and having children practice the same thing over and over again, and not quite. understanding where to when and how to move them on. And that's where teacher. professionalism can be very. important in judging that.
So you can't take a teacher out of the mix .
So you can't take a teacher out of the mix .
12:05
12:05
12:05
12:05
12:05
12:06
12:06
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
That you're going to have difficulty accessing. different curriculum areas other than that. And of course, they don't go in hand in hand. This is a very, it needs to be very bespoke provision, and it needs to be very sensitive to the any individual child's situation. I mean, one of the mistakes that that is commonly made in school, for.
12:06
12:06
Speaker 5
-
Speaker 5
At the moment, is to say, you know, you have. ADHD or dyslexia or whatever, and you'll struggle with a normal timetable. So we'll give you a visual timetable. But a lot of children with dyslexia can't cope with symbols either. And so it's seen as a binary thing. We've got the normal thing and we've got the. adaptation and you over there can go and manage with the adaptation. And that's an. unsophisticated approach. And what you wouldn't want to see is, oh, well, you know, you lot, you go and work on the tablets with the thing and we'll teach the real class, you know, so you don't want any kind of.
normalisation or. pathology because you're getting some sort of support there. So it needs to be .
normalisation or. pathology because you're getting some sort of support there. So it needs to be .
12:06
Speaker 1
-
Speaker 1
That's what . you wanted to comment. Well, I don't really have much to add to what's been said. I worry about the lack of. evidence and the pressure from companies on schools to buy products specialized for children with send that haven't been fully scrutinised, and where there haven't been randomised controlled trials, for example. And I also worry about, again, going back to social.
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:07
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:08
12:09
Helen Hayes
-
-
Helen Hayes
Trying to find the reference, but I can send it along afterwards. You very much. I'm going to close the session there if that's okay. Thank you very much. It's absolutely fascinating if there's any. And all of you have got such a depth of expertise in this area, if there was anything that you were not able to get across to us today in the limited time that we had, please do write to the committee afterwards, and we would very much welcome the opportunity to take account of it.
But for now, I will draw .
But for now, I will draw .
12:09