Live Debate: Foreign Affairs Committee

Foreign Affairs Committee

Monday 7th September 2026

(began 4 days, 6 hours ago)

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13:33

Speaker 1

Foreign Affairs Committee is beginning its its formal inquiry into Syria and. And we're very grateful to have in front of us. Would you like to introduce yourself?

13:33

Speaker 2

My name is Rim Turkmani. I'm assistant professor, research fellow at the London School of Economics and Political Science. I'm an iron research program about Syria that have been running for more than 12 years. Thank you.

13:34

Alex Ballinger

- -

Thank you. I'm Neal Quilliam, I'm an associate fellow at Chatham House and the Middle East and North Africa program, and I've run various Syria projects over the years.

13:34

Speaker 1

I think many of us, as we come into the beginning of of September, become increasingly mindful as we get to the to the to nine over 11 about the terrible. Deaths and will never forget the pictures of the, of the airplanes going into those, the Twin Towers and the impact that it had on international politics. And I think it's important for the Foreign Affairs Committee to just officially mark this awful anniversary once more.

But can we just move on to what's been happening to Syria that's also had a decade of conflict, huge displacement, collapse of institutions, terrible human rights abuses. I mean, given all of that, I wondered if our witnesses could perhaps begin by helping us understand how much Syria may have changed recently and whether it can be seen as positive change, and whether it is moving in a more democratic and inclusive direction.

I wonder, Doctor Turkmani, would you mind beginning?

13:35

Speaker 2

Sure. Thank you very much. Indeed. Having got rid of the Assad regime is a very, very positive change. And the transition, despite all the challenges, has been smoother than anticipated. However, I cannot say that right now we are moving towards a democratic governance. While the transition created a big vacuum of power, you know, overnight change, the new authorities don't have all the tools to control the public space that was there before.

So we have citizens who are pushing for more participation, for more democratic institutions, for more inclusive governance. We have an authority that is trying to control the space, but we have a lot of space that we can occupy that no one has occupied before. So I want to say there is an opportunity, there is an opportunity to come up with new institutions, different ones that are more accountable, where citizens really feel that they belong. And this is an area where I think external help, particularly UK help, could could be very important.

I just came back from a five week visit to Syria. I went all around the country. It's the sixth visit since the change and I can see that the security have improved. But there are serious concerns around the security area and some areas of the country. Not not the every part that are still there. There are concerns about the economy, but the collapse of environment, which I would like to come back to in a later intervention.

13:37

Speaker 1

Please do. But let's but let's hear from doctor. How do I pronounce your. William. William. Yes. Sorry.

13:37

Alex Ballinger

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Thank you very much. I would basically echo what what Reem has said as a as an analyst, a long term analyst. I wrote my PhD centuries ago on on Syria and having having looked at the country and studied it for, for, you know, for, for centuries, I find myself very much torn. And that's because as, as Reem said, I mean, there has been tremendous progress in the past couple of years.

The country has made strides, big strides internationally in particular. And I think a lot of a lot of the successes, if we can use that term, have been quite surprising. Yes. So there are there are lots of positive stories, I think, to tell. But there is against that backdrop, as Reem described, that there's a it's a big space that needs filling. There are lots of lots of troubles, lots of obstacles, lots of concerns.

I mean, that shouldn't be a surprise. I mean, given that Syria has just gone through this.

13:38

Speaker 1

Very.

13:38

Alex Ballinger

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Very painful, painful war. And it's not it's not going to walk away in a very short space of time. I

13:38

Speaker 1

mean, there are certain obvious things that are measurable. So so the composition of Parliament is a is a kind of an obvious one. And as I understand it, a third of Parliament is, is, is, is going to be appointed by the president. Do we have any idea whether that has what the composition now is and how inclusive it might be? I mean, I don't think there's anything publicly available. So or if there is, we've missed it.

13:38

Speaker 2

Having just interviewed several members of the Parliament, let me answer this, as we have 210 members of the Parliament, one third of them has been appointed by the president and the third through semi election out of a college that was selected.

13:39

Speaker 1

Was the other third then.

13:39

Speaker 2

So one third appointed by the president and two thirds were elected. But in. They kind of do they choose in every area an electoral college, about 4 or 500 people out of them, they elected a certain number of people. However, if you want to look at the representation, let's start with the women. 10% only women. Right. There are huge gaps in representing certain parts of the country, especially in the northeast and Sweida and others.

However, I wouldn't read this Parliament as.

13:39

Speaker 1

Being being being who.

13:39

Speaker 2

The Kurds particularly. Yeah, they do have question. They don't feel they are part of the central institutions, even the Kurds who are there, they're they don't see them as people who came from their area, who represent them, that they chose them rather , that they were people appointed by the government to represent them. And you

13:40

Speaker 1

talked about Sweida just spell out what that is then.

13:40

Speaker 2

I mean, it's very Sweida is almost, almost politically cut out of the Parliament and the central institutions. However, the government is appointing some people from Druze background to fill this gap. But if you go to Sweida, they wouldn't see these people as representatives. Again, for

13:40

Speaker 1

people who are watching who may not know. So Suweida would be an area that was particularly dominated by Druze.

13:40

Speaker 2

Absolutely dominated by Druze right now. And there's a huge rift with the central government following the massacres of July last year.

13:40

Speaker 1

Are there minority groups that are well represented?

13:40

Speaker 2

Certainly there are even I wouldn't even say the majority feel represented because I have to stress. Also, a Parliament post conflict cannot be fully representative. I mean, even if you run elections, it's very you know, the results will not really be really representative. The question is, is.

13:55

Speaker 1

We if we're if we're quite as expansive as. This is very interesting, but I think I ought to allow I mean.

13:55

Speaker 2

Again and let. Me

13:55

Speaker 1

know. I mean, I, I, I'm being warned that we're going to run out of time. I'm sure that this will come up again, but I think we ought to move on and ask, because I think her questions actually follow on from what we've been talking about. In any event.

13:55

Abtisam Mohamed

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Yeah. Thank you chair. So Doctor Reem, in relation to you mentioned that 10% of the composition of Parliament are women. So we know that one was previously appointed by the president. The remaining they were elected into position.

13:55

Speaker 2

Five were elected and seven were appointed by the president.

13:55

Abtisam Mohamed

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Five were appointed and. seven elected. So okay, so that's less than 10% then of just. Yeah. Do any of those women have responsibilities in the current Parliament? Have they been given.

13:55

Speaker 2

Yeah. One is the deputy head, and I think the other responsibilities are still kind of emerging, but they seem to be very serious about their role. And they see it. They see their success as the opening for more women to come in the future. They want to to be seen as successful, not because they're women, but because they are really bringing substantive, meaningful contribution to the Parliament.

13:56

Abtisam Mohamed

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So following on from that point, then what what specific actions do you think could or opportunities are available to take place to encourage more participation, which isn't just the sort of the numerical aspect within the parliament, but the grassroot involvement of women getting engaged in politics in Syria.

13:56

Speaker 2

I think we need to support these women who made it to the parliament and, you know, building their capacity, including their media presence, but also protect the overall space for women. You know, stepping into politics in Syria, particularly, particularly the virtual one, it's being used to attack them. It's being used. My friend just gave a speech, for example, at the Security Council, in which she was critical of the government, and vicious attacks came from her, not from the government, from the populist on social media attacking her, making threats to her life.

So how do we control that space to kind of make it safe for Syrian women is a big question right now. We

13:57

Abtisam Mohamed

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spoke to a number of women in Lebanon as well, and they said very similar things about how they were not entirely confident about the process and and what it would mean for their involvement. They saw it as an opportunity, but actually they were very worried about what it could mean for them just to speak up against the government or, you know, challenge any different ideals. When we spoke earlier about, you know, the UK perhaps helping Syria, could there be any sort of support that we could offer in terms of gender involvement and getting more becoming more inclusive in terms of the political landscape?

13:57

Speaker 2

Absolutely. I mean, to stress meaningful gender inclusion, and I really put three lines under meaningful not just having women appointed in the northeast. There has a lot there's been a lot of gain in that area. And now it's being lost in the recent integration. So they used to have for every position there will be two men and a woman. Now, because they're being integrated in the central government, it's mainly men who are taken on board.

So we're making losses. And I mentioned the northeast. This is an area where the UK had some influence, and they can use that right now to say, no, we cannot go back on the gains that were made on women participation, and we hope that will. This would also present a model that can be also replicated in other parts of the country.

13:58

Speaker 3

Okay. Thank you. That's really interesting.

13:58

Speaker 4

Thank you chair. Thank you so much for seeing us today. We have many Syrian refugees in my area of London who I know very well. And so I'm sure they'll be listening in as well. I'd just like to talk to you a bit about wider peace in the region and the role of Israel at the moment. So the Syrian Observatory has documented 53 Israeli attacks inside Syria during 2026 this year alone, 49 of which were carried out by ground forces and some incursion and established positions beyond that 1974 ceasefire line.

So what are Israel's objectives in Syria? Maybe I'll come to you first, Doctor Quilliam. And how have they evolved since the fall of the Assad regime?

13:59

Alex Ballinger

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So I think we have to look at Israel in a in a in a new light since the fall of the Assad regime. I don't think we need to think about it prior to that. And it it's really to. It's made very clear its opposition to the government. It has made very clear its support to the Druze community. It wants to extend its influence inside the country. I mean, initially, after the fall of Assad, of course, it made military interventions to downgrade weapons stocks.

So so that was very clear goal. I think that Israel wants to keep Syria in a state of flux and a state of using very nice words. But disorganization, I think I think it has a goal to undermine the authority of the state and to stop the state from extending its its authority, right, right across the territory in the interim for the time being. And I guess going forward, Israel will want to hold on to those additional territories that that that it took very early on in this this new phase of Syria.

Personally. I mean, I see Israel as a as a destabilizing force. When one looks at Syria, nearly every country in the region wants it to work and has come in what I would describe as a bear hug, you know, trying, trying to make it work. There are two countries that aren't doing that, and one is Iran and one is Israel. And I don't think Israel sees a, you know, a sort of unitary, strong together Syria as being something that serves its interests.

14:00

Speaker 4

You mentioned the Druze community that Israel is saying they need to be there for protection of the Druze community. Is that are they using that as an excuse for their actions more widely? And also do the Druze community see them as a protector? Is it is it a valid and useful position that they're taking their.

14:01

Alex Ballinger

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I mean, serious? You know, Syria is Syria has been permeable and highly penetrated since since prior to the civil war, but certainly during during the Civil war. And Israel has traditionally in different countries backed specific groups, individual groups. I mean, it has its own Druze community, which does place pressure on the government itself. There are elements. And, you know, we can't just use the word Druze to to refer to everyone. It's like using the word, you know, Britain, we're all very different.

And so, so there are components or elements within the Druze community that, that, that are receiving support from Israel and do so because they want to build out their own either federal structure or much stronger kind of autonomous structure. But that's but that's a small component. But to answer your question, yes, Israel is using this as leverage. I don't think it would necessarily need to use that if it didn't want to. It can still hold on and occupy, you know, part of the Golan and beyond.

Going up to Hermon, it as we saw a couple of weeks ago, it carried out attacks against the airfield in in Idlib. So I don't think it needs an excuse, but it certainly gives an anchor through which it can it can pour its support.

14:02

Speaker 2

Can just follow up on this, which I fully support. The two things really the UK could do. I mean, that attack on the airbase was actually one that Turkey wanted to use. So in a way, Syria is becoming an area where Turkey and Israel are testing each other's red line and confronting each other. And this is very dangerous for the whole region. And I think this is where the UK can come and play De-conflicting role.

Second, I think, you know, given all what Israel is doing and continuing to occupy the Golan Heights, but also going now and taking even more Syrian lands, I think the current. Ban on trade with settlements that the UK government is considering should also extend to the settlements in the Golan Heights.

14:03

Speaker 4

And what's the situation now? What's the of the Syria Israel security agreement? Is it what situation is it in now? What other likely pressures from the international community, maybe neighboring countries or others like the UK? And what are the main barriers to having that agreement?

14:03

Alex Ballinger

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I think that that file. So where it is I mean. The two governments, you know, have held their meeting a couple of weeks ago. I think the file very much sits in the hands of the US. It's it depends where the US puts the pressure, makes them come together and makes them work. I think the Syrian the Syrian position has has been fairly clear from early on that a security agreement or a security framework is very much in its interests.

I think the the lack of interest or the paucity in wanting to push forward with that sits with Israel. But but the way through that, yes, the international community and yes, the UK can can support encouraging both sides to work together. But I really think that sits within, within the purview of of the US president. Is there.

14:04

Speaker 4

Pressure from within within Israel to Israeli the population want to see this agreement? Is it is it a discussed or talked about within Israel? I

14:04

Alex Ballinger

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don't think it's a big issue. No. There are there are there are other bigger issues that are on the minds of Israelis. So it's not a it's not a prominent.

14:04

Speaker 1

Move to. Richard.

14:04

Alex Ballinger

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Sure.

14:04

Richard Foord

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I'm going to ask a few questions about Turkey. What do you think Turkey sees as its role in shaping Syria's security agreements? Can I ask Doctor Quilliam?

14:04

Alex Ballinger

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Yes, I mean, I think so. So so Turkey clearly fails. You know, a strong a strong alignment of interests with Syria. It is very, very close to to this current government. And so we'll want to match and mirror its its security framework, its security cooperation. I mean, there was there was concern, I think, in the early phases, if we if we discount Israel and part of the conversation that there will be a competition between Turkey and some of the Gulf states, the UAE in particular, or, or Saudi Arabia.

But but there has become some some alignment, some some clear interest there that Turkey sees Syria as as sort of falling within its within its purview. But that's not to say that Syria is not an independent state that wants to have an independent position and will want to hedge, and one want to balance out that relationship.

14:05

Richard Foord

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Doctor Turkmani.

14:05

Speaker 2

I would support that. But also I would like to add how Turkey is shaping the internal security scene inside Syria, particularly with its backing of the battles against some of the Kurds faction in the last six seven months . That actually played a role in the calculations that the recent Kurdish leaders made when they agreed the last agreement with Damascus just last week. And the agreement is seen as very unequal. It appoints General Mazloum Abdi, who was, you know, the leader of the Syrian Democratic Forces as an advisor to the president, which is like people are asking, so where is the power of an advisor? I mean, after 14 years, all what happened? That's what you get.

You don't have a legally protected presence in in the government in any shape or form. And when we asked them about their calculations, why did they accept that compromise Turkey came up. I mean, they said, well, you know, we knew that if we go into a battle, this is not just going to be a battle with the Syrian forces, that it's going to be also with Turkey. And can we afford that? So the whole Syrian scene is being influenced.

And I think while the the focus was on security and okay, it's good that they reach an agreement on security, to be honest, how to integrate the Syrian Democratic Forces in the Syrian security scene. That's good progress. However, it's not matched with the political integration. And I think Turkey needs to know that if the Kurds are not meaningfully integrated politically in Syria, in central Damascus, but also in their areas, there will be no long term security because so many Kurds right now are resenting the the the current arrangements.

14:07

Richard Foord

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So what is the political representation of Kurdish communities, aside from that advisor role to the president?

14:07

Speaker 2

Hardly anything. So there are no roles given in government. The previous government that was put together, they put. The Minister of Education comes from Kurdish background, but he's not somebody like northeast Kurdish community kind of nominated. They have nothing legally protected. They only have some cultural rights now being protected. Like, you know, the the Kurdish language, the right to teach it and so forth. That was the only advancement. They made nothing away from that.

They do feel excluded from the decision making power inside Damascus.

14:08

Richard Foord

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And thinking about that, that peace process between the PKK and the government in Turkey. Do you feel that those developments in Syria can help ease that tension between the PKK and the Turkish government?

14:08

Speaker 2

I think they do. But there is a fear among the Syrian Kurds that Turkey doesn't want the Syrian Kurds to make political gains that become president for the Kurds inside Turkey. They want to they don't want to create a new model that they have to replicate. So that's why they would rather keep them excluded away from that. There has been a confusion among the Kurds I spoke to about what is going on, whether in Turkey or even in Syria, because we still don't know the details, even of the agreement in Syria.

We still don't know the details. And that, you know, raises even more questions about the content. I

14:09

Alex Ballinger

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might flip that, though. I think I think that the progress has been made between the PKK and the Turkish government has had a bearing on what we've just seen taking place with the SDF. And and that that absorption. I think that is that is part consequence coming from Turkey itself, right.

14:09

Speaker 1

The absorption doesn't include women fighters we hear in the media.

14:09

Alex Ballinger

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Yeah.

14:09

Speaker 1

Right. So just to kind of like make sure that sorry, I'm sure other people have already got it, but I just want to I think so there's the issue about women fighters, which is kind of the sort of thing that hits the media. But there's but but you were also saying that the democratic structures amongst Kurds in Syria was one whereby there was equal representation.

14:09

Alex Ballinger

- -

Yeah.

14:09

Speaker 1

Because each post had a man and a woman doing it.

14:09

Speaker 2

Yeah. Always like, let's say in every seat they would have two co-chairs, one woman and one a man. These seats, like, let's say a chairing any office, like even the leadership of this, the Syrian Democratic Council, the the co-chairs will be chosen, you know, one female, one male. And that's the model that they replicated in many of the top positions that they they had. Okay.

14:10

Speaker 1

That's very interesting.

14:10

Speaker 3

Thank you.

14:10

Speaker 1

John.

14:10

John Whittingdale

- -

Thank you. Can I ask about Russia's position? Because Russia was obviously the primary backer of Bashar al-Assad and has the two bases in Syria. Now, we understand that an agreement has been reached that the Syrians will take over to some extent those bases. Can you say to what extent you think Russia still has influence in Syria and how important it is? Is it that they retain a military capacity at particularly the naval base, for access to the Mediterranean?

14:11

Alex Ballinger

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Yes, I mean, they do. There were those negotiations, there were those agreements? Yes. They they retain some military capacity and capability in the country. Clearly, it's not what it was. You know, you know, prior prior to the to the collapse of the Assad regime. But Qara has been quite adroit at hedging as best as he can at managing that relationship. I mean, in the early days after the fall of Assad, you know, there was a lot of speculation that Russian influence would would vanish overnight as as would Iranian.

But of course, I mean, they've they've got long, deep ties into the country that are still there, that are still present. So they still they still have degrees of influence. And yes, I mean, they.

14:11

John Whittingdale

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Still Russian naval vessels still be able to operate from Syria.

14:11

Alex Ballinger

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Yes, they. Will. They will.

14:11

John Whittingdale

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Yeah. And does President Assad in Moscow affect the relationship or to the Syrians just sort of accept that that's where it is?

14:12

Alex Ballinger

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Let him answer that one.

14:12

Speaker 2

I think the Syrians just want to move forward. Assad is not the central point right now. I think Russia has far more leverage over Syria because of the wheat. It's still, you know, import a lot of wheat from Russia and oil as well. Yeah.

14:12

John Whittingdale

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So to some extent, there is an economic necessity to maintain.

14:12

Speaker 2

That which they can they heavily depend on. Yeah.

14:12

Speaker 1

Syria used to be the breadbasket, didn't it.

14:12

Speaker 2

Sorry.

14:12

Speaker 1

Syria used to grow wheat.

14:12

Speaker 2

Exactly. Yeah. But right now we used to export wheat. We still grow wheat. We we used to export it. Right now we have to import. And Ukraine and Russia are still two of the main sources.

14:12

John Whittingdale

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And one of the reasons that Russia always gave for their support for Assad was that if it wasn't Assad, then it would be Islamic extremism. And they've cited ISIS very much as the sort of alternative. Now, clearly, we've moved on a long way since then, but to what extent is ISIS still a threat? Do you believe in Syria?

14:13

Alex Ballinger

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I mean, it's still a threat. It still has a it still has a presence. We have seen, you know, a series of attacks over, over over the past year and some some sort of well-timed or poorly timed attacks during, you know, Macron, Macron's visit. So they they still have some capabilities, but obviously they don't hold territory. They don't have the same organizational structure that they had before they were, you know, before they were struck. But they, you know, as dream said, I mean, this is, you know, this is a big canvas.

It's it's it's a big space. The government will do what it, what it can to, to extend its authority and influence into those areas. And we also have to think that Syria is, to a large extent, still very fractured. The government does have its does have its reach there. But there are groups that are that are beholden to it, that were fighting with it, that have just disappeared and gone, gone into the ether.

And they have differing , differing loyalties, not not to the Syrian state, not to the Syrian people. So we will continue to see, I think, sporadic sort of ISIS attacks. They they announced I think it was back in May. You know, they're going to begin a new campaign. So so they're going to be ever present, waiting to sort of puncture any any security vulnerabilities that they can identify or, you know.

14:14

John Whittingdale

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And without the US support, do you think the Syrian regime is capable of resisting and preventing that?

14:14

Alex Ballinger

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Well, this is where it really needs to draw upon the experience of the SDF. And I think I think, you know, it really depends how how you know, how those those those forces are brought into sort of, you know, into the central armed forces and how they're deployed and whether whether they draw on that extremely valuable experience that they've gained or not.

14:15

Speaker 3

Yeah. Can I

14:15

Speaker 2

just add to that? It's just ISIS thrives on recruiting people who feel very bitterly excluded. So the more we help building inclusive governance, the less threat there is to ISIS in Syria.

14:15

Speaker 3

Yeah, but.

14:15

Edward Morello

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Thank you, chair. You talked earlier about Israel's incursions in directly into Syria, but obviously, one of the broader regional geopolitical issues is the Israeli Iran conflict. I'm just interested to get your feeling on what the impact has been on Syria of that conflict. Syria has sought to stay neutral. Have they been successful in that? Is that sustainable long term? Do you have any view on whether or not or is it just background noise to what's going on internally?

14:16

Speaker 2

It's not a very big issue right now for Syria. It's rather neutral. Syria is trying to have a rather neutral, more anti-iran, let's say, but they don't want to have a confrontation with Iran. But Iran's presence inside Syria has been weakened dramatically, like dramatically, really. I mean, the only now role is through what they're doing in Lebanon. So that's kind of the indirect way. But inside Syria, they're much weaker than they were before.

14:16

Alex Ballinger

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Yeah. No, I mean, I would I would I would just say that I think it's probably it's, it's, it's, it's more background noise. I think there are there are projects. Syria is huge. It's consuming a lot of time and energy. But as Reem said, I mean, Syria is trying to chart this, this sort of neutral, neutral course, as it were at the moment, focusing very much on, on, you know, on the domestic side of things.

And, you know, the strange twist of fate is that Syria looks like one of the most stable countries in the region at the moment.

14:17

Edward Morello

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So obviously, the Israel-iran conflict and US involvement has impacted quite a lot of the GCC countries. You mentioned before about, you know, the sort of bear hug the neighboring countries were giving Syria. But as GCC countries reprioritise money internally into their own rebuilding of damaged infrastructure and improving defense, is that likely to have any impact on their commitment to sending money to Syria or rebuilding or investing in in Syria?

14:17

Alex Ballinger

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Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the instinctive answer is yes. I mean, but but it's but it's quite it's quite remarkable that I mean, so there are a lot of commitments have been made, a lot of MOU have been signed, but we haven't actually seen that really materialize in any meaningful way. I mean, there are there are there are there are contracts. There's quite a lot of port development. There is some infrastructure development. But I would say, you know, as we saw with Syria during the years of its war, the there are a lot of pledges, but they haven't materialized.

So so yes, and clearly the Gulf states have they have to reprioritize. You know, the issue of Hormuz now is structural for it. So they are putting their money in in other areas. And that will have a diminishing impact on how they how they can support. Yeah. Syria going forward.

14:18

Edward Morello

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And doctor money, I'm just chair mentioned before that Syria used to be the bread basket of the Middle East. Great exporter of grain. As Syria looks to rebuild and, you know, become I assume, as all countries do, hope to be a regional power, what are the what are the what are the areas, what are the areas that Syria has an opportunity to emerge in in terms of sectors, if not just agriculture? You mentioned the importance of agriculture, but are there any other potential markets where Syria could be a regional leader?

14:19

Speaker 2

Certainly restoring the agriculture, because it also relates to many of the industries that are the signature of the Syrian products. You can buy them even here in the UK, in London supermarkets, they're, you know, excellent food products. But also there is an opportunity that Syrian desert is the closest desert linked by land to Europe. So it can be a place where you can build massive solar power plants to generate energy that arrive to Europe through cable, through the land, not under the sea.

If you compare with the project you had with Morocco, where you know it was meant to feed 8% of the UK energy, right? It was meant to be very, very expensive under the sea cables. Syria's desert is just, you know, all through land. And it's it's much cheaper. And that's a huge area where we can, you know, make use out of an empty land and that can help recover the economy. And if you use the right technology, you can also help recovering the Syrian economy as well.

And that can be the right alternative to hormones. Rather than saying, let's, let's use Syria as a transit for pipelines, for oil and gas, where Europe is already transitioning out of them. Actually, let's use Syria as a source of clean energy, right? I would also look at tourism again. It used to be one of the major sectors, but of course we need more, you know, increased security for that. But I just came back from a trip to Syria, five weeks with my family, with my son sitting around.

We went through all the country . And I asked him at the end of the visit, did you at any point feel unsafe? And he said, no, he did. So it is improving, and I think that's one point I would really like to stress that we need the UK presence inside Syria. So to know all of this, to really understand what the people want, what they feel towards the state, to be influential during this extremely important phase of Syria's.

In Syria's history, it is a critical juncture. And the institutions that are going to emerge, they're going to last for some time. So it is important time for the UK to be present on the ground through an embassy. Already the Denmark, Germany have established their presence there. Why can't the UK follow when it actually opened embassies in other countries where security situation is, you know, like Tripoli, Mogadishu, Baghdad. And I think related to that is the travel advice which still remains against any travels to Syria might have to be reconsidered and taken into consideration the varying security situation where, again, the UK handles, let's say in Lebanon, you have very, you know, varying levels of security in different parts and the UK travel advice and presence, you know, take that into consideration.

And I think it's time to do the same for Syria. So you can have an embassy and a British council, because when I speak to the people, they say, we want the British Council even more than the embassy. It was like space of fresh air in the country builds cultural relations, educational relations. So that presence would really give you the ability to influence and help putting the country in the right direction.

14:22

Speaker 3

Thank you very much.

14:22

Speaker 1

I think on that note, can I say thank you very much for giving evidence in front of us. It's really important and an interesting evidence. Thank you very much. Thank you. If I may, I'll move on to the second panel.

14:22

Speaker 3

Thank you.

14:22

Speaker 1

Perhaps we'll suspend briefly. Order, order! We're going to move on to the second panel that we have in front of us in our Syria inquiry. And I wondered if you could introduce yourselves. Please. Can I begin with John Wilkes?

14:23

Speaker 5

Thank you. My name is John Wilkes. I'm currently a senior advisor to the Syria Britain Business Council. So I've been in Syria about six times in the last year. This is very much focused on private sector development and supporting British business. I was in the Foreign Office for 34 years as a an Arabist and ambassador in various countries. I was Syria envoy. This was after we'd shut our embassy.

So I ran the Syria file from outside between 2012 2014. And currently I am working in Washington DC, although I'm still UK based in the Atlantic Council, where I am running a dialogue between Europe and the US on the Middle East. But we have found that Syria is one of the most productive files that we can discuss. So I'm actually doing a dialogue between the US and Europe on Syria.

14:24

Speaker 1

That sounds very interesting, but hang on a minute. We'll get on to that in a minute. Sorry, Charlotte, could you introduce yourself?

14:24

Speaker 6

I'm Charlotte Leslie, I'm the director of the Conservative Middle East Council. And once upon a time I sat on this side and was MP for Bristol North West. During that time, I was a vice chair of the Conservative Middle East Council and was in Syria, I believe, on the last parliamentary delegation to be there in February 2011, when Simon Collis was ambassador. And I saw first hand the value of the British Council.

I was in Syria in June with the Syria British Business Council, and I think that was the first parliamentary first parliamentarians who went back. So I was last parliamentarian out and amongst with the first ones in in India.

14:25

Speaker 1

I mean, I think you were you were in the room when we were asking questions of the previous witness, and it was previous witnesses. And we were kind of beginning to move on to the territory that we want to ask you about, which is about economic recovery in Syria. How do we see Syria developing? And I wondered, perhaps if I can begin with a sort of general question, which is really what are the biggest obstacles to economic recovery in Syria today? Should we start with you?

14:25

Speaker 5

Yes. Although great progress has been made in security and stability, I think that is going to be for years to come, an issue on the minds of investors and visitors and businesses setting up in Syria. But I think in the last 18 months, and it continues every month this year, I think we are seeing more improvements than we're seeing deterioration. I think I heard some of the discussion in the last session about the Kurds, where I was talking to a businessman who was operating up in the north east, which had been one of the areas people were worried about most, that it could do decline rapidly into conflict.

He said. Actually, it's gone the opposite way. So there are issues, tribal issues, arab-kurd issues. But actually he feels more safe operating there than he has done for the past 18 months. So but that will always be an issue, I think, despite the progress that has been made. And then the second issue, I think, and it's the one that our members, British business and Syrian diaspora businesses are raising with us is the banking sector and the ability to move money electronically, including hard currencies , in and out of the country.

And there is some progress there, and it's been helped by a lifting of the state sponsor of terrorism designation in the US and other sanctions by US, EU, UK. But there's an inherent caution at this stage of a transition. Some banks are doing small numbers of transactions, but as I've seen in other post-conflict transitions, this is very much a sort of exponential curve that little by little banks will start to get more confidence and then things will flip and banks will want to be part of this.

So I think that progress is encouraging, even though it's very slow. But I think that's the biggest issue. And then maybe.

14:27

Speaker 1

A way of putting that, which is the also the kind of concerns about regulation.

14:27

Speaker 5

Yes. So legal and regulatory frameworks, corruption, money laundering, drugs, money, this sort of thing. We have banks who are members of the Syrian Britain Business Council , who are themselves taking steps to clean their accounts, to present themselves to international banks as worthy partners. But that still has some way to go.

14:28

Speaker 1

I mean, what are the realistically speaking, what are the biggest opportunities do we think for for growth and, and for investment? I mean, where are where should British business be looking?

14:28

Speaker 5

Well, I mean, as the IMF has recently reported, they're expecting growth of 10% this year. That's obviously a bounce back from a disastrous decade or more. But we find that there are opportunities for UK companies in, in the in the early stages of, of recovery from from conflict. Now, that might be the next stage beyond humanitarian aid, that might be demining and dealing with the a huge problem of of unexploded ordnance across the country.

Basic investment in infrastructure , housing, obviously public services is a huge area. I think for UK companies, we've got three types. There will be high level services. It might be legal and financial helping this banking sector recover. It might be architectural and project design where it'll be maybe companies from other countries, Turkey, for instance, actually do the construction, but the higher value work will be done by British companies.

The second will be these companies who are used to operating in post-conflict environments, security and risk consultancies, demining, this sort of thing. And then thirdly, I think British companies that are. Traditionally involved in energy and energy related sectors. So it could be oil trading companies, it could be could be oil and gas companies, it could be service companies. I think those would be the three areas that we would see in the short term and in the long term.

And this reflects maybe this discussion about the British Council. The great demand from Syria is for British education, for partnerships on the ground, for the ability to. Have Syrians who can be educated both in Syria and in the UK, and so in Syria, Britain. Business Council, I think our most exciting and promising subsector for the long term will be education.

14:30

Speaker 1

Anything you want to to add on opportunities there may be in this area. Yeah.

14:30

Speaker 6

And it's really to go to what was being talked about within the last session. Is there there are significant opportunities. You can't emphasize enough just what an entire state of rubble, both institutionally and physically the country is in and what you're rebuilding from, it's materially been decimated. But also the trust and the society has been decimated as well. So you're dealing with massive trauma. But what's really striking is in the midst of this, the demand is for the UK.

And again and again. And it's not just Syria. I hear this in it's all over the Middle East is they say, where's the UK? Other countries are coming in. And this isn't just Syria, but it's particularly Syria at the moment. Other countries are coming in, getting involved. They're getting ambassadors, they're getting embassies in and the UK is conspicuously absent. And you guys are the guys we trust most on our exactly what we need our institution building education.

This is what we look to the UK for. And you're not here. One of the other really interesting things I found when I was speaking to people, whether it's accurate or not in a sense isn't so important. But the word on the street is that the Brits were very responsible for the removal of Assad and the installation of of Al-shara. So the legend on the street is the Brits came in, they got rid of this terrible regime, they liberated us, and then you guys disappeared when we really want you.

And that's not only the missing of an opportunity, but as as the optimism inevitably, after the liberation turns to the realities of rebuilding and people are poor. And a lot of the things that did exist under the oppressive regime that they're pleased to be rid of have now disappeared. And things aren't replacing them. They're beginning to say, well, hang on a sec, the Brits have just abandoned us. And so that goodwill is beginning to fray and fracture.

And then the other thing that I'm also hearing, I can't vouch for its accuracy, is that not only are the competitor states and countries moving in Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Switzerland were all at the big Damascus trade fair. Britain wasn't. But also other actors are moving in to build the organizational structures. So one of the reasons the Muslim Brotherhood is so effective across the region is because it's very good at organizing, providing social structures.

And whilst the government is desperately trying to build itself out of rubble in an enormous and fragmented country, physically and socially, we're not there to step in and help. And others are stepping in that are not nearly such constructive actors. And that's really the thing that I was struck by in nearly every conversation I had. So it's reopened the embassy and review your travel advice, even if it's only to Damascus. But then the other thing I'd add is what's very interesting

14:33

Speaker 1

Other thing I'd add is, what's very interesting is if you look at the travel advice from comparable countries, everyone says don't go. But in the same breath, I also hear people saying, I want to open a.

14:33

Emily Thornberry

- -

Hotel.

14:33

Speaker 1

And I wanted a British company to do it. This was from a Syrian British. businessman and there were no Brits. So I've had to deploy a German.

14:33

Emily Thornberry

- -

Architect and.

14:33

Speaker 1

I'm looking for Danish are going to do it now. They all have the same travel advice, but there are an awful lot more businesses and activities. Despite the brilliant efforts of SBC, which is doing great work, there's an awful lot more of other nationalities and other nationality, business and interest and .

14:34

Emily Thornberry

- -

Diplomatic presence than the UK at the moment. Isn't the travel advice? Doesn't the travel advice impact on insurance? Isn't that what one of the biggest problems that there is? I see you nodding. Can I, can I ask I mean, should should at a at a moment like this, I suppose when we talk about, you know, where is Britain and, and what can Britain be doing? Should they be should Syria be more dependent on aid or private investment? I mean, what's the government's attitude to it? And could you help us with that? And what sectors do we think we could be most effective in terms of not just Britain? You've told us what Britain can do, but I mean, in terms of what sectors does does does Syria need to develop quickly and will be dependent on the international community .

14:34

Speaker 2

For and will that be through trade or will it be through aid? So I think. definitely the private sector should lead this. And I think British government policy. reflects that. I don't think we have humanitarian aid contributions, but I don't think it's going to be a development priority given the demands on the development budget. And the Syrian government says the same thing. I mean, it says we recognise we don't have the oil and gas.

resources to become a rentier state and not like the Gulf states and not like Iraq, that. Syrians must feel in the next year or two. Benefits of, you know, the interest that is being taken internationally and that has to be delivered through grassroots private sector activity. It's not going to be the big projects that develop or have that sort of impact on on millions of Syrians across the country. So we've we've got we've got buy in in terms of the discourse from Syria and from the British government and from other governments in the region and beyond East and West.

The question is making it happen, given that the country is still.

14:36

Emily Thornberry

- -

Extremely limited. In

14:36

Speaker 2

its financial.

14:36

Emily Thornberry

- -

Resources.

14:36

Speaker 2

That it requires. investors still to be. taking some. substantial risks, which countries in the region are maybe more prepared to do because they have a political and strategic interest in the success of Syria's. stabilisation and and recovery. But I think there is a consensus and a window which will last a couple of years, at least, I think, whereby. everybody more or less agrees the private sector has to deliver the next stage of recovery.

And so the. question in all our minds, and what we're testing out through all the work that we're doing in Syria, Britain Business Council is the president and the people around him, the power in that country committed to an open economy, because, of course, there's this great Middle East tradition of actually moving towards quite a closed economy, might be formally reliant on private sector companies, but actually everything. decisions and allocations of contracts and resources are taken at the centre of power in a.

non-transparent way. Which way is this going to go? I would say in the last 12 months, I've seen more. indications that it's going to go in the open direction. But nevertheless, there are extraordinary pressures on the president from his. movement that we delivered this revolution. We have put our lives on the line, and we need to see our share of the benefits. So there's a fine line there, I think, to be to be trod.

But has the president and the senior advisers around him accepted the argument that there will be a real threat to our stability if we don't create jobs and spread . Economic

14:37

Emily Thornberry

- -

opportunity across the country. I think the answer is yes, and that's what we're working with.

14:37

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

This leads us very neatly on to questions I think Sam has on this. Yes, I think it's fascinating hearing just the level of importance that business will have. When we went to Lebanon, we spoke to some civil society groups, and they were keen to to be involved in the future of transition. How involved are they at present? And, you know, are they . Involved

14:38

Speaker 2

in recovery and to what extent? Yeah. When I as I said, when I was Syria envoy for the British government, we were working with the. opposition then, which of course did not include the current president, who was then part of an al Qaeda franchise. So we were working with secular, democratic Muslim Brotherhood as well. I mean, it went some way into the. Islamist space. But what I noticed when I go back is I see some of those people being free to operate.

So I think that's a good sign that, you know, these people who wanted to be the new government ought to negotiate a transition from the Assad regime, didn't achieve that, but they are being allowed to be part of the recovery. What I.

14:38

Emily Thornberry

- -

Notice. I mean, I

14:38

Speaker 2

managed to do one visit out of Damascus in the last couple of months, and that was to to Homs and to the areas in between Damascus and Homs. And what I noticed on the.

14:39

Emily Thornberry

- -

Ground. And

14:39

Speaker 2

I understand this is the same in the other big cities, is you have got grass roots recovery, which is dependent on a lot of what we would call civil society, and that will be dependent on local fundraising or remittances. It's not yet big budgets from central government that's allowing cities to recover, but recovering they are. And I think civil society is playing a big role in that. So my my. personal this is a reflection on my time working on Syria, but it's really the whole of my career in the Middle East is that we need to get civil society, business and governments in the room together from the beginning, particularly in transitions like this.

So it's something I'm. encouraging and we're trying to do with the Business Council is say that this business council will only succeed if we work with civil . Society

14:39

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

and with governments. Both British, Syrian . And

14:39

Speaker 2

and others in the region. Are they in the room at the present or. Yes. I mean, I would say the conference we had that Charlotte attended, that was the first big British business conference in Syria with the MPs present, which sent a very positive signal. We had civil society in the room. We . Had

14:40

Speaker 1

Syrian government in the room. So we'll build on that. Yeah, yeah. If I may add, one of the it's a recurring theme that the intention of the government is actually a lot more open and a lot more progressive than you might imagine. I was constantly surprised by the the modernity and the progressiveness of the aims. So yes to business, actually, yes to the concept of women representation. It's how you do it.

And that's the same with civil society. So while for a long time civil society had been getting on and doing it itself, and then after the fall of the regime, it really had to take the role of a lot of government. And so there is openness. I had a meeting with civil society and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the challenge was, how does government pass over. responsibilities to civil society? Who or civil society pass over responsibility to government when they're already doing it? And it's that it's that.

interaction that they're finding just practically very difficult. And what you also find is there's great variation between departments. So it's very easy to talk about the government. And obviously the president is is central, but there's a lot of . Difference

14:41

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

in tone in the way things work between the different.

14:41

Emily Thornberry

- -

Ministries.

14:41

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

Other examples of how they are shaping . Policy

14:41

Speaker 1

at the moment, or trying to support the government in its formation. Yeah. I mean, what's again, what's interesting is whatever people's past has been, I detected a surprising level of support for the president. There'll be complaints and there'll be.

14:41

Emily Thornberry

- -

Criticism.

14:41

Speaker 1

But ultimately absolute support. And one of the. meetings which we had during the conference was with civil society and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was present. And I think it was decided that it would be a more open. conversation if government officials left the room. But the civil society groups were very keen for them to be in the room. And anyway, they left the room and there was some very robust talk about empowerment of women and how the government needs to do more on this and faster.

And one of our groups said, would you say this to the president? And one of the female NGO leaders says she says, well, I have I've said this and more. And so in comparison to being in Syria in.

14:42

Emily Thornberry

- -

2011.

14:42

Speaker 1

Where you could feel the freeze, you could feel the fear. Freedom of speech is. really not it's really strong. The problem is, is that nothing's happening from it. So there's good intentions and I think they genuinely are. There's freedom of speech, but it's the mechanics of how do you actually change stuff. And one of the issues we've talked about is, is cash moving from a completely cash economy to a banking system.

And I think recently, within the last few weeks, the first electronic transfer took place in Damascus. But not a lot has happened after that. And I asked my friends why and she said, well, it's really hard. How on earth do you have a system when everything's run on cash and you've got a history like Syria has just had, how on earth . Do

14:43

Emily Thornberry

- -

you fight? How do you confirm the origin of . Your

14:43

Speaker 1

cash? Is it Syrian cash or is it dollars Syrian cash? So how do you how do you you know, how do how do you begin to look at the origin of that? Secondly, it's behavior change. And then thirdly, if it's in cash, the government has more control over it. So you get more financial control over it. Then you look at issues of corruption. And because people are not yet trusting that they feel equal before the law, they want to use cash, they want to pay for stuff.

They don't want to enter a system because they don't trust things. The culture is that if you want a position, you'll offer someone money which is corrupt. So even if you have systems that don't want to be corrupt, the culture of the people and the society is that you will be corrupt because that's how you've done it. And you've got this vicious circle as how do you move from a cash economy to an international banking system when you've got people who don't feel equal before the law, you can't identify the origins of your cash.

And so one of the challenges that Syria is facing is it's stuck in this vicious circle that one thing leads to another. And at some point, you've got to find some kind . Of way to

14:44

Speaker 2

break that so that they can have a breakthrough. Is that fair? Yes. I mean, I'll just add something to that. I think the the. feeling that you get in Syria that is so positive is we've got our country back. Most Syrians believe that not all Syrians, but critical mass, big majority. And that has a positive political effect. And it has a positive effect in business confidence terms, the willingness of Syrian, maybe from the diaspora to come back and actually set up a small business and give it a go and help their town and help their wider family.

But it doesn't extend yet to the.

14:44

Emily Thornberry

- -

Institutions.

14:44

Speaker 2

Whether it's the government, the state, the parliament, the banking.

14:44

Emily Thornberry

- -

System.

14:44

Speaker 2

These are all.

14:44

Emily Thornberry

- -

Inherited ideas.

14:44

Speaker 2

Some of these institutions are being renewed, including the.

14:44

Emily Thornberry

- -

Parliament.

14:44

Speaker 2

But the people are not yet feeling that these institutions are ours. And that's going to be a important strategic.

14:45

Emily Thornberry

- -

Milestone to achieve that in the next couple of years. Over the years, though, we've heard, I've heard positive things about local government, that there was a local government network in Syria, which was much stronger than you would have thought, given Assad's totalitarianism.

14:45

Speaker 1

Is there anything . Left

14:45

Speaker 2

of that? So. As the state has been completely. You know, because there's been a revolution. And so there is some continuity in state institutions. Essentially, they're starting again. I think there is, because the state is new and weak and patchy in its coverage. There is a lot of of informal grassroots.

14:45

Emily Thornberry

- -

Governance. Some

14:45

Speaker 2

of which may be continuity with the old regime, some of which is under newly appointed governors and city mayors. But what I saw say in Homs is, you know, you've got both a top down governance, but you've also got quite a lot of.

14:46

Emily Thornberry

- -

Grassroots initiative.

14:46

Speaker 2

As well as the state strengthens. Then I think there will be a question of the balance of.

14:46

Speaker 3

Centralization . With

14:46

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

. With

14:46

Emily Thornberry

- -

federalism.

14:46

John Whittingdale

- -

No, sir. John, just just while we're on criminality and. corruption and the rest, the biggest one of the biggest economic activities under Assad regime was drug production and distribution. To what extent is that still going on, or has the new .

14:46

Speaker 1

Regime attempted to stop it? It's significantly .

14:46

Emily Thornberry

- -

Reduced.

14:46

Speaker 1

I think John probably answering, but it's significantly reduced in . Countries.

14:46

Speaker 2

around that are already feeling the effects of it. Yeah, I, we I can only report back what I'm hearing from our Syrian members or British members on the ground is that it is much.

14:46

Emily Thornberry

- -

Reduced.

14:46

Speaker 2

But it's certainly not, you know, history. It is still happening. And that's partially because, again, state authorities, state. governance is is only partial across all of that territory. And the areas where a lot of this production happened were areas that were already outside of the control of of Damascus. They might have been regime held areas, but there's a there was a legacy issue . From

14:47

John Whittingdale

- -

from that fractured governance. And I mean, to some extent, you've already dealt with this. But in terms of the UK's.

14:47

Emily Thornberry

- -

Contribution.

14:47

John Whittingdale

- -

You know, we've talked about education, we've talked about the. importance that the British Council is regarded and the admiration of the UK and sort of feeling of that we're actually, you know, could be doing much more on everybody else's scene . If you had a single. recommendation about where should the UK with the very. limited resources we have, where should we try to really have an influence and support . The new

14:48

Speaker 2

government? What would it be? You . Might

14:48

Speaker 1

say? I would say this, wouldn't I? But let's get that . Embassy

14:48

Speaker 2

opened. I second that, absolutely. It's what everybody says it won't. It won't be just the political. relationship will deliver for the UK and the private sector can get on with it even when the embassy is not there. But it will be the. ability to, to, to, to help Syria help itself, to build partnerships, whether it's technical expertise.

14:48

Emily Thornberry

- -

Education.

14:48

Speaker 2

Ultimately our high level service. industries that can deliver success for the country and be good for our economy and great for our bilateral relationship. And I do think it is essential to have an embassy on the ground. Now, I understand why that's expensive at a time of of restricted budgets, because the estate in Syria, the British Embassy estate, was never fit for purpose even before it was shut. So we've really got to start again from scratch.

And that is expensive. But there are there are halfway houses to get a presence on the ground, and you need to be on the ground to understand, but be . To, to

14:49

Speaker 1

build the. relationships that will deliver the results. We're quite behind comparable countries. And I know there's, there's sort of makeshift embassies being set up in the Four Seasons Hotel and, but, but they're there. And one of the often we make a false distinction. And particularly Britain has a lot of work to do, I think, on this. Between diplomacy and business. France does it very well joining up diplomacy and business and tends to get contracts where we miss out.

But the importance of. diplomacy and an embassy or someone on the ground and business is illustrated by a really terrible story that a friend of a Syrian businesswoman and they do exist told me she's a she's in pharmaceuticals and she's a distributor. After the fall of the regime, there were debts that needed paying. And it's been difficult to get the payment out to the various companies. She deals with a British.

company and the government didn't pay. And she tried to find routes to to get payment for this company. And the company did to there was nothing at all from the British government. There was no ambassador to go to absolute silence. She dealt with a Swiss company who had the same problem, and the Swiss had an envoy, and the envoy went in and got it sorted. So British company doesn't get paid. Swiss company does.

And that's where the importance of diplomats on the ground is. You know, it's just illustrated rather starkly. It wasn't great to hear.

14:50

Edward Morello

- -

To be honest. You've answered my question. It was going to be whether or not we needed to have an embassy in Damascus. And you've highlighted some of the business impacts or economic impacts of us not having a. diplomatic presence on the ground. I suppose if we take it as writ that we do need to open an embassy, then let's talk about the cost of not or delaying. What does that mean for our.

14:51

Emily Thornberry

- -

Diplomatic influence.

14:51

Edward Morello

- -

With the new regime? What does it mean for our regional. influence if . We're not

14:51

Speaker 2

a player on the ground in Syria? I'll take an answer from either of you. I mean, you can go some way through visits and high level phone calls and and a little bit of commercial sort of exploratory activity. And the Syria Britain Business Council exists to fill the gap. While there isn't an embassy commercial section there. You know, we will do the lobbying until the British government is is there and able to to do it.

But you just you just you know, I think this will be everybody's experience. You just cannot have the granular understanding and the relationships that count unless you are there on the ground. And if you can't be there in a permanent buildings 24 over seven, then at least come in from Beirut, you know, for the working week, having done your security assessment for that week and then go back for the weekend. But be there and you can appear actually to have a.

footprint even before you've got the buildings and, and, and the huge costs I know of. rebuilds and security and all the rest of it. There are ways to do this. I also think having an embassy on the ground sends a great signal to every other element of the British effort, whether it is the private sector, whether it is.

14:52

Emily Thornberry

- -

NGOs.

14:52

Speaker 2

Whether it is people who just want to go and visit Syria. I mean, tourism, we heard earlier, quite rightly, is going to be huge. I mean, I always used to advise people who'd never been to the Middle East, even on the Assad regime, go to Syria. It's the.

14:52

Emily Thornberry

- -

Safest.

14:52

Speaker 2

Most beautiful country with great people, great culture.

14:52

Emily Thornberry

- -

Civilization.

14:52

Speaker 2

Food, etc., etc.. You know, once an embassy is there, once there's some. consular assistance available, travel advice can loosen up and everything else then of UK plc . Can

14:53

Speaker 1

can make progress. So it's a, it's a multiplier. And I think the issue is it's not just Syria alone where there's this. bewilderment that the high.

14:53

Emily Thornberry

- -

Expectations. The

14:53

Speaker 1

rest of the, you know, the middle of the region still, rather surprisingly has. Of the UK and its capability and its knowledge and its ability and diplomacy. Those high. expectations are being. So everyone's so bewildered that that we're not there. And so it shows us as weak, indecisive. And I'm afraid I'm going to be absolutely blunt. The general view from the region is that Britain is having some kind of crazy nervous breakdown, and that's not a great.

international look. When you're. competing in a world where you've got new.

14:53

Emily Thornberry

- -

Alliances.

14:53

Speaker 1

Russia is attacking us on, you know, on a daily basis and hybrid ways. We live in a dangerous world. This is no time to look weak and like you're having a nervous breakdown. So not only are you losing. opportunities to comparable competitor. countries in country, in Syria, you're waving a big flag to a really dangerous world,

14:54

Alex Ballinger

- -

Saying we're for the taking because we don't know what we're doing, and we're a bit weak.

14:54

Edward Morello

- -

If you'll indulge me, chair, I take all of your points on board. We we have a.

14:54

Emily Thornberry

- -

Fcdo.

14:54

Edward Morello

- -

Which is having to deal with significant reductions in its budget. And Mr. Wilkes, you've already highlighted the what would be potentially very large cost of going back into Syria at a time when when the Fcdo is having to look at its global footprint and the level of.

14:54

Emily Thornberry

- -

Rationalization required.

14:54

Edward Morello

- -

And what its priorities are. So you. highlighted some of the potential downsides of us not being there. Can we turn that around? Make the case for the Fcdo to . prioritise going back to . Syria

14:54

Alex Ballinger

- -

over . Anything

14:54

Speaker 2

else it can spend money on? So that part of the world, I think, should be seen as part of our near neighbourhood. So obviously. Ukraine and Eastern Front issues will be the absolute priority. We get that and they are. But I think North Africa and the Levant, everything between the Gulf and Europe is both for.

14:55

Emily Thornberry

- -

Security, migration. and prosperity reasons.

14:55

Speaker 2

Is part of our near neighbourhood. I don't think even if Britain were to say we have to be very careful about ideas of global Britain and spreading things too thinly. I know we have global interests, but we've got to focus on priorities. You know, that's what strategy has got to be about. Then I think near. neighbourhood should be where we focus, and I think the vision we need, and we would have if we had a full network of embassies.

There is the. idea that.

14:55

Emily Thornberry

- -

Syria.

14:55

Speaker 2

If it moves towards an open economy, that it helps integrate that. region that brings Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon.

14:56

Emily Thornberry

- -

Jordan.

14:56

Speaker 2

Maybe ultimately Israel and Palestine. If we get I know that's a big if if we get some sort of basic deal there, that region, the Levant or the Near East is already hugely important for us. And Syria could be the thing that makes that vision of an economically.

14:56

Emily Thornberry

- -

Integrated recovering.

14:56

Speaker 2

You know, a renaissance of culture and civilisation, not just. business of stability. We can help make that happen. The UK has already. believed in Syria and the region to have been. instrumental in the removal of Bashar al Assad, and they know where we're sort of active in all the neighbouring countries. And I think Syria is is at the heart of of that. So there I think there is a positive strategic.

14:56

Speaker 1

Argument for being in Syria and making that a success. And it's a point very well made. I completely echo, John. I think the Eastern Mediterranean is. strategically it's it's hugely important. And you don't need, you know, too many maps to explain that. The other thing I think you can do, you can do these things without huge expenditure. So one of the things that I think. creates the impression of far more.

presence than not is continuity of personnel. So and snow is really.

14:57

Emily Thornberry

- -

Respected.

14:57

Speaker 1

But she's moved. And, and all our, you know, our Foreign Office diplomats and officials are superb, but they'd have much more bang for their buck if they stayed in place a bit longer. So I think there are things we can do that don't . Cost

14:57

Alex Ballinger

- -

the earth, but have a. Disproportionate

14:57

Emily Thornberry

- -

effect.

14:57

Richard Foord

- -

And while it's very helpful to know what would be. useful for the UK Syria relationship now, today and in the next perhaps year. Can I just wrap up this session by asking about the next. 5 to 10 years? What might the UK aspire .

14:58

Speaker 2

To in . Terms of our

14:58

Richard Foord

- -

14:58

Alex Ballinger

- -

Relationship . In a

14:58

Speaker 2

decade's time with Syria? Yeah. That's right. So I think the the big. question is can we get a.

14:58

Emily Thornberry

- -

Self-sustaining economy going?

14:58

Speaker 2

Can we support it? Can we be part of it? Can we be partnering through the private sector and through technical assistance in that? I think we've got to do it within a couple of years. Otherwise factors of instability are going to come back in. But it's a decades long task. So over your time frame, I would say for me, that's the heart of the matter for the UK and indeed for other European. countries and for the US and for for the region, it is to get that.

self-sustaining economy going, to build on the business confidence that comes from Syrians feeling they've got their own country back to actually having enough of a legal framework, regulatory. framework to get that business confidence up to a level that the average Syrian can feel the benefit. And even though all the problems of that country won't be solved for.

14:59

Emily Thornberry

- -

Decades.

14:59

Speaker 2

They can feel they're . On the

14:59

Speaker 1

move. So that would be my response to that. Absolutely. And if you're looking at the other. considerations of the inclusion of.

14:59

Emily Thornberry

- -

Minorities. Of

14:59

Speaker 1

social.

14:59

Emily Thornberry

- -

Cohesion.

14:59

Speaker 1

One of the key drivers of lack of social cohesion and one of the main obstacles to rebuilding trust after that trauma is poverty. People feel as if people feel there's no hope, they haven't got money in their pockets. It's much harder to build trust between communities, but also they become much easier prey to radicalizing . Elements

14:59

Emily Thornberry

- -

as well. So I echo what John says. You were talking about the lack of British presence, and what I can say is that we, as a foreign affairs committee, are pushing as hard as we can to be a little bit of a presence in in Syria in the near future and to, to do some sort of cross parliamentary work. You talked about your conference , where you had Parliament parliamentarians there,

14:59

Speaker 2

And I presume that that has an impact by itself. It did. I mean, it sent a very powerful signal. I mean, while I, I think Charlotte is right to say that there is some feedback from Syria that the UK should be more present. I'm sure they do say that to every country because they want everybody to to be there, I do think, and I'm going to blow the trumpet of the SBC here, that we had the first big business conference.

We beat the Americans to it by two weeks. The feedback is that the Americans did well, but we did as well, if not better. So we've got to build on that. And having the MPs there really, I think because I don't think the US had a.

15:00

Emily Thornberry

- -

Congressional delegation.

15:00

Speaker 2

There that sent the message that, you know, we care. And this is.

15:00

Emily Thornberry

- -

About. You

15:00

Speaker 2

know. understanding what you need and being able to go back and integrate the, the UK effort. And just going back, if I may, finally, on the question of Atlantic Council and this dialogue that I'm doing, I do think with Syria, they've. succeeded in a way that's more like Ukraine than it is other countries with the leadership to get the region and Western.

15:01

Emily Thornberry

- -

Countries engaged.

15:01

Speaker 2

And the US and Europe. This is, I think, an issue where our. businesses and our governments and our parliaments and our civil. societies can actually work in a coordinated way together to. deliver an impact that's greater than the sum of its its parts. And if I may say, an invitation will be on its way to everybody on the Foreign Affairs Committee, to our celebration of our first year of this dialogue in Oxford on October the 29th.

So there'll be a big dinner with lots of very interesting people from America, the Middle East and Europe, including parliamentarians. And if any of you can . Join

15:01

Emily Thornberry

- -

us on the 29th of October, we'd be delighted to to welcome you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for giving evidence before us this afternoon. It's been a very interesting session. I'm going to . Suspend

15:01

Speaker 3

this sitting for three minutes. Order, order!

15:08

Emily Thornberry

- -

The panel has appeared before the Foreign Affairs Committee in our Syria inquiry, and we are greatly honored to have the minister, Minister Hind, in front of us. And we're having a few technical difficulties, but I'm hoping that she can hear us sufficiently well. I want to ask a general question at the beginning, first of all, saying how pleased we are to see you. Thank you very much for giving your time.

I'm so sorry about these technical problems, but I wondered if you could perhaps help us with what will success look like in five years time.

15:09

Speaker 4

Just let me. I just like first honourable members share. Thank you very much for the invitation. It means a lot for us to to give us a platform to speak. And I'm here as a Syrian minister, not as a spokesperson. And I will tell you exactly what I see from inside the ministry that deals every day with the people, not with the communique. So this is will give you. exactly the.

overall look. My ministry is the social affairs and labor. So we deal with two.

15:10

Emily Thornberry

- -

Ministries.

15:10

Speaker 4

But also I deal with the social cohesion, civil peace and also with the women files. So this is also my mandate for my ministry. That mean also that I deal with orphans, children who are out of school, and also people with. disabilities and very large number. Now, in a country that spent 13 years at war. Of course, it means widows.

15:10

Emily Thornberry

- -

Returnees.

15:10

Speaker 4

Families who came back to a house that is not there anymore. And it means work. The labour market, which is where dignity is either restored or lost, and also social. cohesion and building. bridges between people. Because this is so important now in.

15:10

Emily Thornberry

- -

Post-conflict.

15:10

Speaker 4

To give time for people to have a proper channel for dialogue, and also the very important file close to my heart is the women. participation and the women role in Syria. And I will I will not describe a transition that is finished because it is definitely it's not. We have a.

15:11

Emily Thornberry

- -

Constitutional declaration.

15:11

Speaker 4

And a five year path. We have people. Assembly that held its first session in July. We have. We have brought the. institutions of the northeast back into the state, which. I'm very proud that my ministry is the first one who. integrate with the other ministry in the North East. We have also had several. challenges since the liberation of our country from the Assad regime.

What I will say is that these things are being.

15:11

Emily Thornberry

- -

Confronted.

15:11

Speaker 4

Not buried. So I read your terms of reference, of course, and I'm very happy that I can hear and to talk with you about everything you would like. But I want also to talk about. inclusions because. everybody ask me about inclusion. It is important to say that. inclusion is not a. decorative in Syria. It's a fair question. And I ask also myself every day.

So my answer also inclusion is not a photograph of cabinet or government formation. It's whether a Druze family in Sweida and Alawite family on the coast, a Kurdish family in Hassakeh can. register for. assistance and receive it under the same rules as anyone in Damascus. So we all need to be equal under the law. That is the taste I'm working to succeed. Colleagues. It's a slow, it's .

15:12

Emily Thornberry

- -

Administrative.

15:12

Speaker 4

But it is not glamorous. But it is the thing that turns a declaration into the state all Syrian deserves. So. I just before I want in your. inquiry why supporting Syria is in Britain interest. I would put it very simply, Syria, where people can work, where children are in school and where.

15:13

Emily Thornberry

- -

Minorities.

15:13

Speaker 4

Family trust. A government office is a Syria whose people stay and. rebuild and do not need any one protection. That is the return on this. investment for you, Your Excellency, and I'm happy now . To

15:13

Speaker 5

. Take any.

15:13

Speaker 6

questions you want, but don't make it very hard.

15:13

Emily Thornberry

- -

I am. No one is fooled by the idea that you couldn't answer a hard question. So I want to ask you about what practical steps are being taken towards drafting a permanent constitution.

15:14

Speaker 7

And who is going to . Oversee

15:14

Speaker 4

it. Sure. Of course we have now.

15:14

Emily Thornberry

- -

Constitution declaration. We

15:14

Speaker 4

just have the people Assembly now and we have many committee. One of them is the. constitutions in my in my ministry. Now, every time I need to change a law or to do the amendment, I don't do it alone in my closed room, a room, your Excellency, what we do, we do a.

15:14

Emily Thornberry

- -

Participatory systems.

15:14

Speaker 4

So we take this amendment, we take the draft to go all over every city in Syria. And I think this is what will happen in the.

15:14

Emily Thornberry

- -

Constitution.

15:14

Speaker 4

Where if you see the. Constitution Committee now, they're going to start doing a new social contract. And this is what's the important thing. So it is the members. But also they're going to have also to share it with others. And we share it with other cities. And we go city to city to take their .

15:15

Emily Thornberry

- -

To take their .

15:15

Speaker 8

Opinion and feedback.

15:15

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

Okay. Thank you chair. Hello, Minister. Thank you very much for joining us today. You referenced earlier the. importance of women and gender.

15:15

Emily Thornberry

- -

Participation. And

15:15

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

you said this is one of your priorities. How how are they being involved in politics at a . Grassroot

15:15

Speaker 7

level?

15:15

Speaker 4

So how is their involvement being nurtured? Yeah. Thank you. This is a very nice this is a question very close to my heart because this is what we we've been fighting for for the last 14 years. Two things, Your Excellencies. First of all, I'm not happy about the numbers of the members of Parliament. They're not enough. But we know that the.

15:15

Emily Thornberry

- -

President.

15:15

Speaker 4

He's the one. Later he appointed more women to be part of the People Assembly. But regarding women.

15:16

Emily Thornberry

- -

Participation.

15:16

Speaker 4

We've been working very hard in my ministry and now we do it. We just finished last week a meeting for the UN Security Council. 1325 and we want to start talking about it and and implement it. So we want to have women to be more involved in politics, not talking, not.

15:16

Emily Thornberry

- -

Newspapers.

15:16

Speaker 4

Not articles. We wanted to walk the talk in my ministry. Now with.

15:16

Emily Thornberry

- -

14 directories.

15:16

Speaker 4

Around Syria, we have now half of them are women. I appointed. seven women out of 14, and just between us, not because of their women, because they have a great CV and they work very hard. So now we know that it is not easy for women to work in politics, in. post-conflict and.

15:16

Emily Thornberry

- -

Transitions.

15:16

Speaker 4

But now we need to have more women. And we're now talking is between. grassroot level, bottom up, and also now what we're doing, we're having all the members of Parliament as ministers and deputies and everybody. So we start doing some lobbying together to have more one voice and to to be more strong in getting more women, to .

15:17

Emily Thornberry

- -

Feel comfortable.

15:17

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

And trust to be part of the process. Minister, you said that you're not happy with the numbers. There's 21 that have been appointed. How how will you work to ensure that those numbers increase? So what what tangible action will you, you . Know, press

15:17

Speaker 7

. On the

15:17

Speaker 4

government to ensure that there are there is better representation? Of course, we we we have to get women more capacity building, and we want to get them to empower them. That's why we're doing now lots of courses and lots of workshops. And what we do. We're now getting the UN Security Council. 1325 to be more known. And now also.

15:17

Emily Thornberry

- -

Economically.

15:17

Speaker 4

When we support women.

15:18

Emily Thornberry

- -

Economically.

15:18

Speaker 4

When they are women.

15:18

Emily Thornberry

- -

Independent.

15:18

Speaker 4

They can be more they can be stronger. So that's what we do now. We're supporting them in the labour market. We support them in vocational trainings, and we don't accept any delegation or any course or any workshop. If they're not.

15:18

Emily Thornberry

- -

50% minimum, 50%. Women

15:18

Speaker 4

to be in the courses because the more knowledge is power, Your Excellency. So the more knowledge we give them, the more.

15:18

Emily Thornberry

- -

Economic empowerment.

15:18

Speaker 4

We give them, the more they can feel comfortable to be . Working

15:18

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

in the public sphere. So that's what we're doing. Thank you. And and earlier, you mentioned the importance of. access for different. communities across.

15:18

Emily Thornberry

- -

Syria.

15:18

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

Different minority communities, and making sure that they have the right access to different services. What support is being given to ensure that.

15:19

Emily Thornberry

- -

Representation. political representation.

15:19

Speaker 7

Reflects the different.

15:19

Speaker 4

Communities across Syria as well? Yeah. Let me I would like to talk a little bit about my ministry, what we do here. So in my ministry, we make sure that everybody is at the table. So let me give you a very simple example. When we did the. integration with the North East, I didn't accept that only the Kurds can come to the table. I insist that a Syrian and tribes to be at the table.

So as I say, you lead by.

15:19

Emily Thornberry

- -

Example.

15:19

Speaker 4

So I won't. accept anybody to come to talk about any file if not inclusive. Now we're trying to change. We're now trying to amend the civil society law. It's an old law. It's since 1958. So beside that, we went through all the cities from. And to have Alawite.

15:19

Emily Thornberry

- -

Smileys.

15:19

Speaker 4

Druze.

15:19

Emily Thornberry

- -

Christian.

15:19

Speaker 4

Everybody will be in the meeting. But now in the drafting committee, let me give you like a overall, we have a Christian, we have Ismailis, we have a Druze, we have Alawite, we have Sunnis, we have Sunnis are moderate Sunnis, we have Salafi. So we make sure that. everybody at the table. So when we get the last draft, everybody will be happy and. And they will be they will have ownership of this law.

So we make sure that. inclusivity is not only, as I say, it's not only a.

15:20

Emily Thornberry

- -

Photograph.

15:20

Speaker 4

It's not only like a coat, like we just saying something nice. Oh, we're all together. No,

15:20

Speaker 8

It's . About

15:20

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

working together.

15:20

Speaker 4

So this is what we're trying to do. Thank you. And don't forget, Your Excellency. I just want to add. Trust is very important. We lost trust during the years of the war. So now we're trying to build .

15:21

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

Trust again between all of the communities. Thank you. That's that's really helpful to, to, to hear just in relation to the.

15:21

Emily Thornberry

- -

Humanitarian situation. and refugee reintegration.

15:21

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

Back into Syria. We, as a foreign affairs committee went to Lebanon and we spoke to many Syrian. refugees there, women who said that they couldn't return back to Syria because the schools weren't there, and also they didn't feel safe. So what work is taking place to help.

15:21

Speaker 7

Refugees .

15:21

Speaker 4

Reintegrate back into Syria? First of all, I, I, I don't want any refugee to be outside Syria. I want everybody to come back to Syria. And this is my message. And we've been talking about this. The problem is, I have to be very honest with you. We don't have the. capacity to have schools in every village. We don't have the. capacity to have a clinic every.

I can tell you all the women and mothers, my colleagues and people I know, the first thing they want to have, if they want to go back to their village, is school. Let's start school. Education for them is the most important. How do I get back to my village if I don't have a place to live and they don't, I don't have a school. So this is the the. obstacles for their return.

So I'm sure and this is now. And thank you for lifting the sanction and thank you for making things for us better. But now we need to have more trust in the system so people can start really. transferring money. So we can do some good. investment and we need what we want to do. We want to those village who are completely .

15:22

Emily Thornberry

- -

Destroyed.

15:22

Speaker 4

And this is how we can get those women to go back for a village is being completely destroyed. So to to rebuild, we need money, we need investment. We need people to start trusting the system so we can go back. So I'm sure once we have system in place. And don't forget it's been only one year since the lifting the sanction. Now we have a. technicality that there is lots of institution.

They don't send the money directly. And you know how it is getting very slow to to start really building a system. So what we need, we need to build a real system and we need to this is how we need to have the National social registry, national cash based assistance. All this can get the. refugees comfort to go back to their to their cities. And also here I, I need to, I need to, to give you a and I have a problem with the.

disabilities because my my ministry is responsible for the special needs. And this is also a problem because we have now. 27% of the Syrian. We have. And the victim of war. So also we need to build. everything to get access for them. So access not only for the refugee to come back, also for the special needs . To

15:24

Abtisam Mohamed

- -

be back and to be part . Of the

15:24

Speaker 7

society.

15:24

Speaker 4

Thank you so . Much,

15:24

Emily Thornberry

- -

Minister. Thank you. I'll pass you on to my colleague. Thank you for the questions. We have limited time. I want to make the most of it, if possible. Fleur Anderson has some questions about housing, and then we have some questions on justice. But I know that you have a plane to catch. But.

15:24

Speaker 4

But let me pass on to Fleur so she . Can ask

15:24

Speaker 6

some . Questions about. It's

15:24

Speaker 4

okay. You . Can send

15:24

Emily Thornberry

- -

me a private jet and I can go.

15:24

Speaker 4

I don't think my budget stretches to that.

15:24

Emily Thornberry

- -

Unfortunately, the . Tax

15:24

Fleur Anderson

- -

people after us. Okay. Thank you chair, and thank you, Minister. I, I know about some housing issues. I just want to ask you that about I know lots of people who want to return are concerned about their property rights. And I just wanted to ask you, how big an issue is that, because it's been raised with me that there's an. ambiguity about property rights, specifically law number ten , and those laws used by the previous.

regime to seize the land of displaced persons. But so people want to know that they can go home and go to their house. And that includes my area of London, where many. Syrians have come to but want to return. So what legislative steps is the ministry taking to guarantee that returning refugees can securely reclaim their homes without . Fear

15:25

Speaker 7

of .

15:25

Emily Thornberry

- -

State expropriation?

15:25

Speaker 4

Actually, the Ministry of Justice is working very hard on this, and they have a committee. So this is not part of my mandate.

15:25

Emily Thornberry

- -

But nevertheless. I

15:25

Speaker 4

can tell you this is one of the biggest. challenges for us. And there is a committee to do this. And I think now there is lots of. cases are under process. So yes, we have a big.

15:26

Emily Thornberry

- -

Problems.

15:26

Speaker 4

But I can tell you there is lots of. solution and many committee, many lawyers and and judges are working on this. Don't forget this is part of the transitional justice too. So people, if they want to feel comfortable in their country, they want to go back to their home. And I can tell you, we went to lots of villages. We couldn't even find the house because it's all it's all been destroyed.

So this is part of the.

15:26

Emily Thornberry

- -

Transitional justice process.

15:26

Speaker 4

And we have now two Committee for the Disappeared and Transitional Justice, and one of the mandate of the Transitional Justice . Committee

15:26

Emily Thornberry

- -

is this the law? Number ten.

15:26

Alex Ballinger

- -

Thank you.

15:26

Edward Morello

- -

Edward, I think you've got questions on transitional justice as well. Yes. Thank you, Your Excellency. I'm just interested to. understand the role of the National Commission for Transitional .

15:27

Emily Thornberry

- -

Justice. the broader.

15:27

Edward Morello

- -

Transitional justice, missing people and the how that fits within the political.

15:27

Speaker 7

Transition .

15:27

Speaker 4

That Syria is currently going through. Yeah. First of all, the scale start point we have now more than. 130 000 missing. persons mass graves we have in Syria. And we have and the opening and we have most of the family of the missing. Now, it's it's not a policy file, Your Excellency. It's more national ones. And there is a grieving for this.

So the government has stated transitional justice. accountability as priority since day one. Since day one, when we did the national dialogue, the president recognized that this is important file and we have established mechanism to pursue them. Of course, if you're asking me about Mosul's, my Ministry of Social Affairs and Labor, we support family of the missing to survivors. And we have also lots of families who are.

15:28

Emily Thornberry

- -

Affected.

15:28

Speaker 4

And we give them. compensation and we have social assistance for them, and we give them lots of.

15:28

Emily Thornberry

- -

Psychological support.

15:28

Speaker 4

And social administratives. And of course, we have lots of. children cannot inherit because there is the wife, she doesn't know where's her husband, etcetera, etcetera. But I can tell you that the, the most important now things we have the. documentation and we have to do.

15:28

Emily Thornberry

- -

Identification capacity.

15:28

Speaker 4

And civil registry. Now it's under process and for a legal status work. So the family of the missing, they can exercise their right. So this is the. most wounded file. And it is giving grief for everybody in Syria because. everybody in Syria, every family there is somebody missing or they don't know where is their husband. So this is. important file.

And I know that between Minister of Justice, the Commission of Transitional Justice, the Commission of the Missing person, and our Ministry of Social Affairs and Labor, we work together in many files to give at least the families some confrontations. I've been even like I've been. I was a few days ago in in a small village in the suburb of Damascus called Al-asafir. And they have more more than 200 people. missing there.

And the women and the wives, the widows are doing some kind of meetings and to, to talk about their grievances. And we can see that part of this will be if we want to have a real. reconciliation in the future, and we want to have stability in Syria, we . Need to

15:30

Edward Morello

- -

take care of those communities. Thank you very much, Your Excellency. One last question, if I may, while we have you here and you have the ear of the Foreign Affairs Committee, what is your message to the British government? What would you like the UK . To be

15:30

Alex Ballinger

- -

. Doing

15:30

Speaker 7

to help Syria?

15:30

Speaker 4

First of all, we know that for 14 years. humanitarian assistance in Syria, and we want to thank you for the years you supported us. And we know how many families you you saved from starvation. So now I think we used to. We you need to trust to trust us more. You need to trust the institution. And we need you to help us in building and to continue building a, a social protection system.

So this is for us. It is very important. And I need to tell you that I know I not being very romantic or anything, but just knowing that you've been you supported us for the last 14 years. You supported the civil.

15:32

Emily Thornberry

- -

Society.

15:32

Speaker 4

You supported the women group, and we need you to support us. But directly. Now, I know that you've been. There is some kind of. We need some third party like UN and others, which. We appreciate their help, but also we need step by step to start building a good relation with the government and trust us as we can start working together in building a system. We don't want a humanitarian basket anymore.

We don't want you to give us like, no, we want to build a system. We want to to do a social protection system so they can last. We want to have. sustainable future for Syria. Sustainable future for Syria is not about giving us. humanitarian basket here or there and giving us funding here or there. It's about building a system together, building a policy together, building a country to respect the rule of law and to .

Be all

15:33

Edward Morello

- -

of . Us

15:33

Emily Thornberry

- -

equal under the law. Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. Thank you so much for your time. I know that, as I say, you you are very limited. You've been so kind, giving us a time that you have between one thing and getting on a plane. I hope this isn't the only time we get to speak to you, Your Excellency. And and on behalf of all of . Us,

15:34

Speaker 4

We . Really do

15:34

Speaker 7

wish you and your .

15:34

Speaker 4

Country all the best. I need last, last things from you. I need to ask you one thing. Go on, ask me. When

15:34

Speaker 5

are you coming?

15:34

Emily Thornberry

- -

When are you coming to Damascus to visit us? No, it's a very good question and one we're working on.

15:35

Speaker 7

And . Please

15:35

Speaker 4

be assured we're working on it. So we'd love to have you all in Damascus . So

15:35

Emily Thornberry

- -

we can meet all of us.

15:35

Speaker 4

And . Thank you

15:35

Emily Thornberry

- -

again for . Your

15:35

Speaker 9

kindness.

15:35

Emily Thornberry

- -

Thank you.

15:35

Speaker 3

Okay. Thank you. Bye bye. Order, order!

This debate has concluded

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