The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)
My Lords, Russia remains a significant and persistent threat to the UK and to Euro-Atlantic security through its war in Ukraine, hostile cyber activity, disinformation and sabotage against the UK and many other NATO allies. The Government have increased transparency around these threats, as seen through the recent exposure of covert Russian operators near UK waters. The MoD rigorously assesses the risks to the UK and to Euro-Atlantic security and takes action with our allies accordingly.
Lord West of Spithead (Lab)
My Lords, our Armed Forces and our defence industries are, I believe, teetering on the brink of disaster due to lack of investment over certainly the past 15 years but actually even longer and lack of decisions recently about spending the money that apparently is being released for defence. There is no doubt that they are in a very parlous state.
As an aside, I must say to the Minister how proud I was to see him honouring a relative, who I think had exactly his name, who was lost in the fighting in Normandy. One has to say that things such as fighting in Normandy happen when you do not have sufficient defence forces and deterrence has failed. That is the position we have got ourselves into.
In 1982, Margaret Thatcher released £2.5 billion at 1982 prices when the Argentinians invaded the Falklands. Where she found that money I do not know because economically things were not good. What are we doing to identify where the money can be found quickly to cover what needs to be spent now? I know he is very loyal, but there is no doubt that he is scarred by the shambles of the defence investment plan. What are we doing about finding that money and getting going? Otherwise, we have a real problem.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
It would be wrong of me not to say that I appreciate my noble friend’s remarks on Normandy. A number of us were there on Saturday; the relative of the noble Lord, Lord Evans, was the day after. My uncle, who I am named after, was killed on D-Day, soon after landing on Sword Beach. I really appreciate my noble friend’s comments.
On the current situation, he will know that the defence investment plan is due to be published and the Prime Minister has made clear that it will be before the Ankara summit on 7 July. We are in discussions about the money. He will have seen that well reported. I cannot tell him exactly what the outcome of all of that will be, but there will be additional investment. My noble friend is right to point out the need for us to increase our capability, and we are doing that. In terms of countering the Russian threat as it stands at the moment, we are not standing still, we are taking action with RAF Typhoons and are with working with our NATO allies in the North Atlantic and the High North. With his naval experience, he will know that the carrier HMS “Prince of Wales”, following a bit of maintenance in Norway, is now out ready for Operation Firecrest and that a number of operations such as Nordic Warden and Arctic Sentry are taking place to protect our interests, take action to counter the Russian threat and protect things such as underwater cables. Of course, there is a need for more investment, more readiness and more capability, but we are taking action with the resources we have now to defend our country as well and as much as we can.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
My Lords, wounds imposed by one’s friends are always more painful to bear than those imposed by one’s adversaries, so I shall try not to compound the Minister’s agony. The Chief of the Defence Staff has laid bare profound concerns about our capability. The noble Lord, Lord West, has encapsulated the problem succinctly, and I shall not repeat that, but at the heart of the chaos we find ourselves in is a fundamental difference of opinion between defence experts who get it and, arguably, a political leadership who do not. Can the Minister clarify precisely how and when this impasse will be resolved? We do not need talk about the defence investment plan; we need it now. We need to see the detail. It may or may not resolve the problem, but dither, delay and inertia are now completely unacceptable.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I welcome challenge on these issues from His Majesty’s Opposition, my noble friend Lord West and my noble friends because it is important the Government are challenged on all these issues. They relate to the defence and security of our country and the defence and security of our continent and beyond so it is quite right to hold the Government and the Ministers who speak for the Government to account on this. The noble Baroness quite rightly asked me about the defence investment plan. I cannot do any more than say to her that the Prime Minister has said that the defence investment plan will be published before 7 July, which is the Ankara summit, the next NATO summit. That is all I can say to her. We hope to be able to publish it well before that, but all I can say to her is that work is ongoing. It will lay out the investments for the future as well as the type of capability that we need. All I was saying to my noble friend Lord West and I say to others is that we have already increased the amount of defence spending and are already increasing available capabilities and taking action where a threat is made against us to defend our country, our people and the alliances to which we belong.
Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)
My Lords, we still may sing “Rule Brittania”, but the reality is that our navy at present is, frankly, a national embarrassment. Obviously, we are glad that the “Prince of Wales” is now back in action, but will the Minister comment on newspaper reports that all our non-ballistic submarines are in dock and not available for current operations?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
It has been well reported. I have said from this Dispatch Box, and the First Sea Lord has said it as well, that the availability of submarines is not where the Government would want it to be. That is why we are investing, for example, £4.5 billion in the dockyards in Plymouth. The dockyards in Plymouth need investment, the dockyards in Scotland need investment, and we are looking at that. We are also looking at original ways of seeing whether we can provide docking facilities to increase the availability of submarines by looking at various provisions that do not require building or rebuilding a whole new dock. The noble Lord is quite right to point out that we need to do better on the availability of submarines. Of course we do. We will not comment on exactly how, and the noble Lord would not expect me to, but of course availability needs to improve and we are looking at how we can do that.
Lord Stirrup (CB)
My Lords, the focus has been on the defence investment plan, which is, of course, crucial, but does the Minister agree that capability is not just about capital investment? Resources expenditure, which is treated differently, is crucial. It pays for the fuel and spares that our people need to conduct training that is fundamental to their operational capability and it pays their salaries and for the standard of their accommodation. Does he agree that any plan that the Ministry of Defence brings forward that does not fund resource adequately will just continue the hollowing out of our Armed Forces that has taken place over the past two decades?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I thank the noble and gallant Lord for the question. In any investment plan going forward, obviously the emphasis tends to be on capital as the noble and gallant Lord says—how many planes will we have, what we will do with munitions, and those sorts of things. However, he is quite right to point out the resource element of the budget—the day-to-day expenditure that pays for wages, training and all those things—is equally important, otherwise we run into trouble, particularly mid-year if there is a need to rebalance and look how to resource the particulars. The noble and gallant Lord often points out that if we do not get the resource allocation right, it impacts on the morale of the very people who serve our country. He is quite right to point that out. Discussions about the correct split between CDEL and RDEL is also going on.
Lord Harper (Con)
My Lords, the Minister drew attention to recent reports in the media about funding the defence investment plan. Given that we are only a few weeks away from its publication, assuming it does hit the pre-NATO summit deadline, does he think that what can only be described as a Cabinet whip-round to pay for the defence investment plan sends the right message to the adversaries that the Chief of the Defence Staff highlighted?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
The Government are looking at how they can increase defence spending, which we all want to see, and how we increase the defence budget. There is a variety of ways of doing that. He will know from experience that Governments often set budgets and then reorder priorities within them as circumstances change. That is a perfectly legitimate, perfectly reasonable thing for any Government to do. I say to the noble Lord that if the Government were not looking at how they are raising the money, if they were not looking at how to reorder priorities to find the money the noble Lord expects—as I do—he would not have asked that question. He would have reversed it and asked why the Government are not reordering priorities to meet the demands of the country and to fund the defence plan properly. Let me answer him: we are doing that and we will do it.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, on this issue of reprioritisation, given the fiscal restraints we are operating in, it is pretty clear that some resources will have to be found from other expenditures in government. Does he think the Government are doing enough to get across to the public why this is so important at the moment?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
The answer to that is that we need to do more on the national conversation. We are looking at how we do that. I have been made responsible for the national conversation. Should we have done more already? We probably should have done, but we will now. We need to persuade people and talk to them about the threats we face and what we need to do to tackle them. We have to bring people along with us. I think that one of the things that the Government need to do—working with others because it is a national effort—is to say to people: “These are the threats that we face, and these are the things we need to do”. It does require some reordering of priorities to do that. At the end of the day, the defence of the realm is really important, but that case needs to be made to the people of this country. We should not just assume that they will accept it.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the SDR made it clear that the Russian threat is now not simply a threat from abroad in eastern Europe and the North Sea but is also a homeland threat. It suggested a number of measures for mobilising our domestic population and improving homeland defence and public awareness of it. Is that an MoD responsibility or one that other departments will deal with, and what priority does it have?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
The overall lead for homeland defence is with the Cabinet Office but, clearly, the Ministry of Defence has a role with respect to readiness and—in answer to my noble friend’s question—in talking to the public about how we fund this and prioritise spending within all that. Homeland defence across all aspects of our country is a Cabinet Office responsibility but, clearly, the MoD has an important role within it.
Baroness Boycott (CB)
My Lords, given that the threats are often cyber threats, which have not been mentioned so far, what investment is going into that? Is it in the Minister’s department or someone else’s, and how joined up is the thinking on all that?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
There is a Cabinet committee that looks at cyber defence and the MoD has just reorganised its cyber command to deal with the very threat that the noble Baroness mentions. The really important point is that warfare is changing. In the past, the military was always thought of as being tanks, airplanes and troops—all those sorts of things—whereas the warfare that we face now is cyber, disinformation and threats to underwater cables. You have to address all of that when asking what capability you need. Cyber is certainly one of them, and there has been some reorganisation within the MoD and across government to deal with that threat as well.
Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)
My Lords, we have talked about resources. We have talked about money and everything. When it really comes down to it, I say to the Minister—who I know has, over many years, had deep feelings for the defence of this country, without question—that it comes back to people. Given that we are in danger now, not necessarily in five or 10 years’ time, does he think that we have the right sort of people to be trained to be prepared to live, work, defend and, if necessary, die for this country?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
Yes, I really do. If people feel that their country, their livelihood, their families and way of life are threatened, and they understand that, I think people will. I am sure there will be a small minority who will not, including some conscientious objectors and others who may not have that view, but I take the view that the context is everything. If people feel threatened, I believe passionately that the British people, as they always have done, will defend their democracy, their homes and their family.
Baroness Antrobus (Lab)
My Lords, following on from my noble friend’s point about the national conversation, only last week I was briefed on research showing that senior military leaders and the heads of the security services have a particularly significant impact with the public when they talk in the media about the threats that we face. Does my noble friend agree that it would be beneficial for the national conversation that he is now responsible for, and which we need to have, if we could hear more from the Chief of the Defence Staff and the other service chiefs?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I have always been of the view that in many situations—my noble friend has served, so she will know this—a military uniform gives a legitimacy to things that are said. That is quite right because, over many centuries, people have felt that those in military uniform have earned the right to be heard, and they believe that those people speak with integrity. In direct answer to my noble friend’s question, using all military personnel—not just senior personnel but military personnel of every rank, in their local communities and areas, including the reserves, and even cadets talking to other young people—in terms of a national conversation would be an immensely powerful thing to do. I shall make sure that we do that.