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Lord Udny-Lister
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure that the new definition of heated tobacco product is included in the age of sale and other regulations covering vapes and nicotine products.
Lord Udny-Lister (Con)
My Lords, the purpose of my amendment to Clause 10 is simply to ensure that heated tobacco products are explicitly addressed within the age of sale framework. I am strongly of the view that, when Parliament seeks to regulate a product, it must define it clearly. As other noble Lords have repeatedly mentioned, there is still a high level of inconsistency and ambiguity in this Bill, which renders it fundamentally flawed unless many of these amendments are supported over the next few days. Both retailers and trading standards officers require certainty when it comes to product classification, and a clear statutory definition would avoid later confusion, reduce the overall risk of litigation and strengthen accountability, which must remain the overriding purpose of this Bill if it is to stand any chance of delivering what I believe is the Government’s intended result. In the interest of making the Bill workable on the ground, I hope that this minor change will have your Lordships’ support.
My amendment to Clause 11 mirrors the approach that I have taken concerning Clause 10. I am again asking for consistency so that, where vaping products are referenced, heated tobacco products are dealt with explicitly. We cannot pass legislation through this House where there is ambiguity. I fear that, if these points are ignored, the Bill will lack the clarity required to make it practically enforceable. As such, we in this House will be placing a grave, unfair burden upon those in enforcement. Furthermore, we will be creating unfairness for compliant businesses, which comes with the not inconceivable risk of pushing retailers towards the temptation of rogue and illicit trading. We need to legislate coherently across product categories rather than allow voids to undermine the objectives that the Government are seeking to achieve.
I will speak now to Amendments 87, 89, 90, 101, 113, 189 and 190 in my name. I wish to ensure that the phrase “or consumed in any other way” is removed and that a clear definition of heated tobacco is inserted. It is important to note that heated tobacco does not burn tobacco; it heats it. This is important as evidence indicates lower toxicant exposure compared with that of most cigarettes. If future adult access is to be prohibited, this decision must be based on proper assessment and evidence, which is lacking at this time. The purpose of Amendments 189 and 190 specifically is simply to insert some precision into the Bill. These amendments replace “consumed” with “smoked” and remove reference to heated tobacco devices. I put it to your Lordships that “consumed” is excessively broad. Through slightly better drafting, we can protect businesses, enable better enforcement and protect the courts from uncertainty. I beg to move.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, for helping to differentiate products and for having some precision in the way we discuss these issues. I have been concerned throughout about a one-size-fits-all approach. I do not think it helps anyone. It certainly does not help in relation to health, let alone retailers and so on, as has been described.
Heated tobacco should not be conflated with vapes, but it should also not be conflated with smoking cigarettes or tobacco in that sense. As the noble Lord explained, heated tobacco products are heated, not combusted. That means that, although they might have some degree of harm, there is a body of evidence that shows that there is a huge reduction in harmful products from heating tobacco rather than smoking tobacco. This matters to me because a lot of people use heated tobacco as a smoking cessation tool, as a form of giving up smoking.
When I have raised issues concerning the evidence on heated tobacco, I have been told that the problem with that evidence is that it is based on research produced by the tobacco industry rather than by independent researchers. I point out that, none the less, it is scientific evidence and can be tested as such, whoever pays for it. But if there is some concern about the evidence, I encourage the Government to consider how they can fund research into the very different types of product we are talking about, rather than simply dismissing any evidence they do not like the look of because of who funds it. We need to have a sense of proportion and should not treat all products the same. As I say, I therefore reject the one-size-fits-all approach. We will have much better legislation if these things are clarified on the face of the Bill and we all know what we are talking about, and do not just lump things under the single heading of “harmful and dangerous”.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, this group of amendments relates to heated tobacco and its inclusion in the Bill, and in particular the rising age of sale. It is essential that the measures in the Bill apply to all tobacco products without exception. We have learned repeatedly that, where legislation leaves loopholes, the tobacco industry exploits them. We saw this with cigarillos—products defined as cigars but designed to resemble cigarettes, evading plain packaging with the flavour and pack size rules, as we discussed in Committee.
The Bill is a chance for truly comprehensive legislation. I am particularly concerned about Amendment 89, which would remove the phrase
“or consumed in any other way”.
That would leave the door wide open for further innovation from the industry to continue selling tobacco products here in the UK. The regulatory powers in the Bill must be broadly defined, including powers over packaging and presentation. This is not overreach; it is future-proofing based upon our past experience. Without it, we invite industry innovation designed solely to sidestep regulation and undermine public health.
Heated tobacco products should not be conflated with vapes. Vapes can be and are recommended for smoking cessation, following evidence, including a Cochrane review, showing that they are a helpful tool for smokers. Heated tobacco products do not meet that standard and are not recommended by NICE. They are used by fewer than 1% of people in the UK, yet awareness of them is rising, particularly among young people. Alarmingly, nearly one-quarter of 11 to 17 year-olds are now aware of these products, and that may well be the result of their marketing in supermarkets and online.
I therefore welcome government Amendments 217, 218 and 219, which ensure that the comprehensive definition of a tobacco product applies from the moment the Bill comes into force. That will help to address the ongoing and unacceptable advertising of heated tobacco products in supermarkets and elsewhere. If we are indeed serious about creating a smoke-free generation, all tobacco products, including heated tobacco, must be included without ambiguity or exception.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend has tabled a number of amendments on heated tobacco products. Although there may be some concern about what is behind them, they raise important questions that I am afraid the Government have yet to answer with any real precision.
As I noted in Committee, there appears to be some evidence that individuals who switched from conventional cigarettes to heated tobacco products show lower levels of exposure to harmful chemicals than those who continue smoking. I am just comparing them to cigarettes, not to vapes. To be clear, I do not suggest that this settles the question of harm—these are relatively new products, and the long-term evidence base is still developing—but it means that the Government cannot simply treat heated tobacco products as interchangeable with conventional cigarettes without explaining why they refuse to consider their relative harm compared to cigarettes. I am talking about not absolute harm, but relative harm.
There is also the practical question of where these products may be used. The position on indoor and outdoor spaces remains, as far as I can tell, unclear. Heated tobacco does not produce combustion or sidestream smoke in the conventional sense, and yet it is not obvious from the Bill how the Government intend to address that distinction—if they intend to address it at all.
More fundamentally, can the Minister explain what specific evidence underpins the decision to include heated tobacco in the generational ban? I am sure all noble Lords accept that current evidence shows that vapes are relatively safer than smoking. It may be that vapes are relatively safer than heated tobacco, but as yet, we have not seen definitive evidence. Unfortunately, as noble Lords have said, much of the research on heated tobacco is funded by the tobacco industry. I can understand the concern there. I hope the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but there is no definitive independent research on the relative harms of heated tobacco. If there is definitive research, can the Minister write to noble Lords with links to the relevant academic papers? I think we saw one link to a meta study that was not very good, but there has been no meaningful in-depth research.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend, who told me that when they tried vapes to quit smoking, it unfortunately did not do the job for them. When they went back to their doctor, he said that he was not supposed to do this, but he suggested heated tobacco as a relatively less harmful alternative. While he hoped his patient might have switched from cigarettes to vapes, since this had not happened—we do not live in a perfect world—he preferred his patient to use heated tobacco to going back to cigarettes. Once again, this was a practical approach based on relative harms.
I completely understand the concern that, if we overpromote heated tobacco, we might find that smokers switch to it rather than vapes. Given that the policy rationale rests substantially on reducing harm—we should be looking at absolute harm and relative harm— I would welcome clarity on whether the Government are satisfied that the case for treating heated tobacco like cigarettes is proven. It will be interesting to see that distinction between heated tobacco and cigarettes. Is the science still sufficiently uncertain to warrant a more cautious approach?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I appreciate the contributions made in this debate. I will start by addressing government Amendments 217, 218 and 219, tabled in my name; I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her support.
The Bill updates the definition of a tobacco product in legislation relating to promotion and advertising, and in Scottish legislation, to
“a product consisting wholly or partly of tobacco and intended to be smoked, sniffed, sucked, chewed or consumed in any other way”.
Those last few words,
“consumed in any other way”,
are the key ones. What does this definition do? It ensures that all forms of tobacco products, regardless of how they are consumed, are captured by this legislation, including—this is important to the points raised by noble Lords—any future novel tobacco products.
These amendments bring forward the commencement of this updated definition to the day of Royal Assent, rather than two months after Royal Assent. That is because the Government’s view is that all tobacco products currently on the market are already captured in the current definition, so it is appropriate for this future-proofing amendment to come into force at Royal Assent because there is no change to the law for which notice would be required.
Amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, seek to redefine how heated tobacco products are captured within the Bill so that they are no longer treated in the same way as other tobacco products. These amendments also seek to prevent provisions being extended to heated tobacco devices in the future.
On the points raised by the noble Lord, as well as by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, the Bill deliberately defines tobacco products expansively and includes heated tobacco. The reason for that is that there is no safe level of tobacco consumption and all forms of tobacco are harmful.
On the points raised about evidence, there is evidence of toxicity from heated tobacco in laboratory studies; the aerosol generated by heated tobacco devices contains carcinogenic compounds. Unlike vapes, there is limited evidence that heated tobacco can support smoking cessation, despite what is claimed by the tobacco industry. On the matters of evidence raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, as has been set out by all four UK Chief Medical Officers in a technical note to noble Lords, any suggestion that heated tobacco products are safe or should be promoted as quit aids in some way is entirely misleading.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, that, through the National Institute for Health and Care Research, we are funding high-quality research into tobacco products. Between 2020 and 2025, £25 million was invested in a NIHR research programme to research tobacco control, and that will help us develop the evidence base. Exempting heated tobacco products from the smoke-free generation policy and other provisions in the Bill would simply allow the tobacco industry to continue to find a way to addict future generations to harmful and addictive products. The Bill is completely geared to go the other way.
The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked about heated-tobacco-free places. We will return to the whole issue of tobacco-free places when we come to group 16, so I am sure that that will be debated then. I hope that I have been able to clarify the Government’s position for noble Lords, and that the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kamall (Con)
Before the Minister sits down, she talked about research that was done on tobacco products between 2020 and 2025. In that time, was any specific research done on heated tobacco as part of tobacco products?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The specific definition is “tobacco control research”, so it would be strange if it did not include what we know about already, which includes heated tobacco. I will be glad to confirm that to the noble Lord in writing.
Lord Udny-Lister (Con)
I thank the Minister for her reassurances, although I am afraid that I do not agree with her. However, I accept that we have taken this as far as we can. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Moylan
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that regulations to specify methods of customer age verification must be made by the affirmative resolution procedure.
Baroness Merron
“(1A) But subsection (1) does not apply in relation to a vape vending machine made available for use in a mental health hospital if the machine is in an area that is intended wholly or mainly for inpatients.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment creates an exception to the offence of having management or control of premises on which a vape vending machine is made available for use. It applies where the vending machine is in a mental health hospital in an area intended wholly or mainly for inpatients.
Baroness Merron
““mental health hospital” means an institution (or part of an institution) maintained wholly or mainly for the reception and treatment of inpatients who—(a) are aged 18 or over, and(b) are suffering from mental disorder (within the meaning of the Mental Health Act 1983);”Member’s explanatory statement
This is consequential on my first amendment to clause 12.
Lord Moylan
“Offence of manufacturing, supplying or offering to supply counterfeit nicotine products(1) A person who manufactures, supplies, or offers to supply counterfeit nicotine products, including tobacco and vape products, commits an offence.(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both;(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or an unlimited fine, or both.(3) In this section, “counterfeit” means any product or packaging bearing without authorisation a trade mark identical to or indistinguishable from a registered trade mark.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment strengthens the criminal penalties for the production and sale of counterfeit nicotine products with a view to protecting consumers, upholding safety standards, and safeguarding legitimate businesses from unfair competition. It introduces a tiered sentencing structure, permitting tougher consequences for serious offences.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, in approaching this amendment, I start with a very powerful series of BBC News reports that were broadcast before Christmas—other noble Lords may have seen them. The BBC accompanied trading standards officers—and, I believe, Customs and Excise—on raids of various high street premises in various provincial towns. They were shops that looked like stores; you would call them mini-markets or something like that. They had goods on the shelves—packets of soup and whatever it might be that you might conceivably want to buy—but their business was not actually selling these things, and nobody who went into those shops was particularly interested in buying the packets of soup that adorned the shelves.
Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)
I am never quite sure whether I should declare an interest in this debate as someone who has smoked the occasional cigar, but on this set of amendments I declare an interest in that I have teenage children. I see their actions, which chime very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, has just discussed.
We are in danger of creating a two-tier system—we do this across the board, and I am afraid we in this House are guilty of it—whereby we have excess intense regulation, which affects law-abiding citizens and consumers, and we focus on that, feeling that we have done our job and can sit back and relax, having stopped smoking, drinking or whatever it may be. But the reality is that we simply end up creating a second and entirely unregulated market.
I saw the same documentaries that my noble friend saw and was surprised, but not by the clandestine nature of organisations and illegal groups of pirates supplying illegal cigarettes and vape products under the counter or under the table in a pub—these were shops that were well advertised. In fact, I was quite impressed with some of the branding. Some of them were chains; they have become multinational corporations with headquarters, running an effective illegal system that pays no taxes. Clearly, as these documentaries showed, they had other issues, such as money laundering and very bad employment systems.
In conversations with the Minister, I have been encouraged by the realisation of this two-tier issue. It is not simply in the physical sense; it is also online. The teenagers I speak to say they have never actually bought a legal packet of cigarettes. It would not occur to them: at £20 a packet, they would be better off taking up cigars. Instead, they buy everything online, where there are no age checks. They can usually get hold of somebody else’s credit card, and it is delivered to the house. I find it very alarming that we will spend our time in these debates, and the Government will spend a huge amount of effort on a so-called ban of smoking and nicotine products, while at the same time allowing an illegal market to flourish.
From conversations with the Minister, which I found extremely helpful, I am aware that online sales are hard to regulate because of how enforcement happens at the local level: there is no one authority, although specific authorities will take leads in certain areas. There does not seem to be enough money or focus on this important issue. I am saying this because I care about the retailer and about the end ambition, in some measure, of this overall government initiative. It would be extraordinary if we focused all our efforts on a great sledgehammer to crush legal, law-abiding and decent retailers who are trying to do their job, and law-abiding consumers, without realising that we are creating another monster that needs to be tamed.
Lord Udny-Lister (Con)
I shall talk about the two amendments in my name. First, the Bill does not provide a deterrent; the proposed fixed penalty of £200 is nothing to those involved in this illicit trading and organised criminal activity. It is obvious that the unscrupulous retailers will simply absorb the costs and just continue with what they are doing.
It is worth mentioning at this point—and I have seen this—that when people are selling illegal tobacco it is not under the counter. You can have a nice card with all the different brands laid out for you to pick and choose from. It is very professional: a serious bit of criminality out there. I might add that I do not smoke, but I have seen it with others. That is why I am seeking through this amendment support to introduce a stepped penalty regime, escalating for repeat offenders and enabling referral to national and enforcement bodies where organised criminality may be involved. If we want to stand any chance of cutting down this illicit trade and the sale of tobacco and vapes, enforcement must have real teeth. Without a stepped penalty regime and referral powers, the Bill and the generational ban will be nothing more than symbolic.
Amendment 63 is on the points I have just made about having a more robust and stepped approach to penalty notices. I want to strengthen enforcement further by introducing a new statutory referral duty where a fixed penalty notice is issued. If the Bill does not confront the organised criminal network, it will just continue. We want local authorities to issue fixed penalties, and then to refer the matter to the National Crime Agency and relevant police forces and to share intelligence, which is key. It is further my intention that this amendment place a statutory duty on the NCA and police to investigate whether organised crime, excise or VAT evasion is at scale or other serious offences are involved.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I wanted to speak to two amendments in this group that are about the opposite ends of the retail spectrum. On the one hand, there are law-abiding shopkeepers who need to be given a certain leeway if they mess up at the start of this legislation. At the other end of the spectrum are those open lawbreakers who hide in plain sight.
I added my name to Amendment 63 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, which is about giving relevant authorities the discretion to issue a warning notice to first-time offenders. Because this is totally novel and internationally unique legislation, enforcement will be important; but because this is a bit of an experiment, some leeway has to be given to allow it to settle in without criminalising people unnecessarily.
Fixed penalty notices are precisely designed to enable offenders to avoid criminal prosecution and reduce the burden on the courts. That is how they are usually used. I am just worried about the overcriminalisation of shopkeepers via this Bill; it is important to be proportionate and allow that discretion. Allowing trading standards officers to issue warnings to first-time offenders would promote the idea that shopkeepers can learn what the rules are and find out that they have had their warning. I am sure that many initial breaches are likely to be unintentional, and a warning will help a business to understand the rules and allow them not to repeat the mistake, and so on. Therefore, fines are reserved for repeat or serious offences; that is an important way in which to approach this.
In relation to an earlier amendment about communicating what the Bill will do, although I do not necessarily agree with it, it is obviously important that people understand the implications of the Bill when it becomes law. If it passes, which it will, there will have to be quite a steep learning curve for all sorts of different parts of society.
I want to draw attention to something called Local Vape Action, which has just been launched in Maidstone in Kent. It is a local partnership involving retail shops working with the local community and doing education, engagement and enforcement. There are initiatives happening locally where people are trying to say, “We are the good guys; we are the people who are compliant; we’re trying to keep to the rules”. They are trying, for example, to improve the appearance of high streets, making sure that legitimate vape retailers—not the ones that the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, described—want to take some responsibility for not being the rogue traders. I think that is to be commended.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I am delighted to have the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, on my earlier amendment on the communications strategy, and that she has come around to my point of view on this. It clearly is vital that we have an excellent, proactive communication strategy in relation to this new policy, as I argued on the first group.
These amendments seek to ensure that penalties for offences are fair and proportionate. I am very sympathetic to Amendment 60 from the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, which looks like a very useful attempt to take a stepped approach to fines; it seems a very reasonable way to go about this. I look forward to hearing what the Minister says about that, and why she feels, if she does, that it is not necessary or appropriate.
We believe that Amendment 63 is not necessary, as the ability to give warnings already exists. On Amendment 17 on counterfeit products, I am delighted to return the compliment to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who says that she does not like to have unnecessary new offences, by telling her that we understand that this is currently an offence under the Trade Marks Act and that offences under that Act are automatically lifestyle offences, meaning that a proceeds of crime application can be used to remove criminal earnings. Maybe the Minister can comment on these various amendments.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, my noble friends Lord Moylan and Lord Udny-Lister benefited this debate by coming forward with their amendments in this group based on their extensive experience in local government. I warmly welcome Amendment 17; counterfeiting nicotine products is not a victimless crime. It undercuts legitimate businesses that are already operating under considerable regulatory and financial pressure.
Let us be clear that the cumulative burden placed on small businesses, regulatory or otherwise, is already substantial. These businesses, as other noble Lords have said, are already playing by the rules. They pay their taxes and comply with an ever-increasing, complex regulatory framework. It is simply not fair that they should find themselves undercut by operators selling counterfeit products outside that framework entirely.
Beyond the commercial harm, there is a serious consumer safety dimension. Counterfeit nicotine products are unregulated, untested and potentially dangerous. I ask the Minister to confirm that the Government share the view that the robust criminal penalties for counterfeiting are not only appropriate but essential. I would be grateful to hear what steps are being taken to ensure that enforcement capacity exists to make sure that these penalties are meaningful.
At earlier stages of the Bill, I know there were some concerns about the capacity of trading standards, for example. The sum that the Government have made available for local trading standards is to be welcomed, but some still wonder whether it will be enough or whether it is a drop in the ocean.
My noble friend Lord Udny-Lister’s amendments reflect a sensible approach to fixed penalty notices. A step penalty structure that treats a first offence differently from repeated non-compliance is surely right. While some local authorities may already have discretion to issue a warning instead of a fixed penalty for first-time offenders, as my noble friend has raised, it is important that first-time offenders are not treated unduly harshly given the complexity of some of the regulations that these small retailers will have to face. I hope the Minister, if she feels that she cannot accept the amendments as they stand, can say some positive things about them.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, this has been a helpful debate on an issue that concerns us all in this Chamber.
On Amendment 17 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, I agree with his desire to take robust action against counterfeit products—I am sure we all do—but I cannot accept the amendment simply because I do not believe it is necessary, not because of specific objections. I heard his invitation for me to continue as I started, but, unfortunately, I cannot do so for this amendment. We believe it is not necessary, as referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, because protections against trademark infringement are already a matter for existing legislation.
On the point about necessary legislation addressing counterfeit products, which I accept, I say to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that the Trade Marks Act 1994, as we have heard, already provides significant penalties for breaching these rules. They include: on summary conviction, imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both; or, on conviction on indictment, a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years, or both. These are significant penalties.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
In terms of duplication, I argued on the Crime and Policing Bill that it was probably not necessary to legislate for assaulting a shop worker to be against the law, as assaulting anyone is. I asked why there was a specific point about shop and retail workers and was told that this would make a special case of shop workers to emphasise their vulnerability. The point about duplicating laws has never held the Government back before, because they keep doing it.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I must admit that I have a different view. Where we already have legislation covering the specific points we are talking about, as we have here with the Trade Marks Act 1994, there is no reason to go further. The legislation is already working. It is fair to raise the example that the noble Baroness gave, but I do not share her view on that duplication, as it was important specifically to identify shop workers. Maybe we just need to disagree on the duplication or otherwise of legislation.
While trademark protection is not a matter for the Bill, powers in Part 5 will enable the Government to introduce regulations relating to packaging, product safety and product registration. Those who breach these regulations following their implementation may face significant penalties of up to two years’ imprisonment, a fine or both. The penalties broadly mirror the penalties provided by the noble Lord’s amendment, albeit I accept he proposes a slightly higher maximum term of imprisonment of three years instead of two.
The noble Lord, Lord Moylan, raised legitimate points about the scale of the illicit market and also potential connections to other illegal activities. On that point, HMRC and Border Force’s joint illicit tobacco strategy sets out the continued commitment to tackle and disrupt the organised crime groups behind the illicit tobacco trade, a commitment supported by over £100 million of new funding.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, that is a disappointing response. I repeat that my amendment does not rest on any claim that this Bill is going to make a bad situation worse. I do not want to get into that argument. It is a bad situation already. We should be willing to acknowledge that perhaps it is worse than we realise—especially those of us who do not spend a lot of time on provincial high streets and in working-class areas where this happens and is widespread. We need vigorous tools to deal with it.
I entirely accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, said about the need for nuance in how enforcement is carried out. I am aware of the enforcement code that regulators use, including trading standards, because I have worked with it. One wants to be lenient to the honest shopkeeper who muddles up a 40 year-old with a 41 year-old. However, it is not possible to sell counterfeit goods accidentally. You know if you are selling counterfeit goods—it is a deliberate action—especially if you have them stashed in the attic and under floorboards. You are not making an honest mistake when you sell them. We need to be very hard on these people.
My noble friend Lord Udny-Lister has got something, in arguing for a gradation of fines and punishments that will bite harder on people who are repeat offenders or more serious offenders. The Bill misses a trick on that.
On this side—and, I suspect, if they reflect on it, in other parts of the House—there is concern that the Government have not got this element of the Bill right and that they will have to come back to it. The ideal thing would be if they came back to it before the Bill was enacted, at Third Reading, perhaps with something along the lines that my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister produced. It is possible that they could put it right later when they discover that they have made a mistake, but that is much more messy and would not have the desired effect.
I am disappointed. The Government will have to return to this, and the sooner the better. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
The Earl of Lindsay
“(3A) Regulations made under this section may not prohibit the display of tobacco products in any premises, or part of premises—(a) which are exempt from the prohibition on the display of tobacco products under regulations made under the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002, in so far as that exemption relates to specialist tobacconists, or(b) which are operated by a specialist tobacconist.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment, connected to another in the name of the Earl of Lindsay to Clause 14, would preserve the existing exemption for specialist tobacconists from tobacco product display restrictions in England and Wales. Their effect is to ensure that the regulation-making powers in clauses 13 and 14 cannot be used to remove or circumvent that long-standing exemption, whether directly or indirectly through changes to existing display regulations.
The Earl of Lindsay (Con)
My Lords, Amendments 18, 19, 127, 147, and 192 are in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn. In the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I declare my support for the spirit of her Amendment 126, although I am seeking to tackle the issue that she is addressing in a slightly different way. I declare an interest as president of the Charter Trading Standards Institute. However, these amendments are not CTSI amendments; they are very much my own.
I have tabled these amendments in a constructive spirit, as part of what I hope will be recognised as a good faith effort to identify an evidence-based, proportionate and workable solution for handmade cigars within the Bill’s existing architecture. As I have previously said, I unequivocally support the Government’s objective of reducing youth smoking and protecting future generations from smoking-related harms. Nothing in this group of amendments seeks to undermine this. It is rather that the proposed amendments seek to ensure that, in pursuing that objective, we do so in a manner that is proportionate, evidence-based and fair to a small number of lawful, specialist businesses.
Handmade cigars are fundamentally distinct from mass-produced tobacco products. They are also fundamentally distinct from mass-produced, lower-priced, machine-made, small format cigars and cigarillos, all of which occupy a very different segment of the market. This distinction matters in market characteristics and, most importantly, in the evidence base relating to youth uptake and public health.
Handmade cigars are artisanal products. They are individually crafted, higher-value, relatively expensive, premium products. They are sold almost exclusively through specialist tobacconists and other distinct retail channels to informed adult consumers. They are not impulse purchases. Of overriding importance is that handmade cigars are not inhaled, and they are consumed infrequently and not habitually. They are often associated with special occasions or celebratory moments, and are an important feature of the UK’s hospitality sector.
There is no credible evidence that handmade cigars contribute to youth uptake or act as a gateway to nicotine addiction. The last time detailed UK data on cigar usage was collected, it was found that the overwhelming majority of cigar smokers were over the age of 25, with most being over the age of 35. Handmade cigars therefore occupy an entirely different segment of the market, in price, consumer profile and usage.
Their production is uniquely different, which brings me to our Amendments 127 and 147. Handmade cigars are low-volume, high-variety, artisanal products, manufactured in small batches, mostly by producers in Latin America and the Caribbean. There are over 1,300 individual product lines, almost all of which are packaged manually. Requiring bespoke standardised packaging specifically for a single market such as the United Kingdom is simply not practical or commercially viable.
As currently drafted, the Bill would enable the Secretary of State to impose the standardised packaging regime to handmade cigars in the same manner as to mass-market cigarettes, et cetera. Such a measure ignores known risk profiles and market characteristics, and certainly does not represent sound evidence-based policy. The certain outcome of this is that handmade cigars would disappear from our market altogether, along with the long-standing specialist retailers whose businesses depend upon them and, of course, their employees.
These two amendments, therefore, would exempt handmade cigars from the retail packaging regime, accompanied by a tightly drawn statutory definition of what constitutes a handmade cigar. They recognise that the policy rationale for plain packaging in the context of high-volume, youth-sensitive products does not translate to artisanal, individually crafted cigars sold in specialist premises to adults. They acknowledge that imposing such measures on the handmade cigar sector is totally disproportionate when there is no evidence of youth uptake, no discernible public health gain, but the strong likelihood of catastrophic operational and economic burdens being placed on small, compliant, law-abiding businesses.
These facts would have become evident had there been a more comprehensive and focused impact assessment. The impact assessment produced by the department, which runs to 164 pages, makes just three mentions of cigars, with no quantification of the likely economic impact to businesses trading in these products, no small and micro-business assessment, and no discussion of alternatives.
In speaking to these amendments, I ask the Minister whether she can confirm that the Government’s response, which has been pending since January 2025, to the call for evidence to inform potential future regulation of standardised tobacco packaging will confirm that handmade cigars will retain their status quo, as exempted from the introduction of plain packaging.
Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)
My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for her highly engaged approach to these issues facing small specialist tobacconists in the niche handmade, hand-rolled cigar industry. I also appreciated the assistance of her officials at the Department of Health, who have been sitting through a very long debate and must be wondering when it is going to end; I think this is the last group. They demonstrated a high level of understanding of cigars, their impact on health and the effects this Bill could have on the people involved in the specialist industry. I really do appreciate that. We have had a hugely successful, open dialogue around what is a very important issue.
I believe from my conversations with the Government that they do not want to destroy this important cottage industry of mainly small family-owned firms—which, I might add, attract a huge amount of tourism to this country and are world class in their standards of service and compliance. They sell a product which is not associated with childhood smoking, and they are not at risk of contributing to the remorseless rise of vapes, snuses and other nicotine delivery products. Wonderful shops like Davidoff, Fox, Sautters and Cgars, to name a few, employ hundreds of people and give satisfaction and happiness to thousands more.
It is very important that we accept the amendments proposed by my noble friend Lord Lindsay to protect these stores, especially those in the cluster of St James’s Street. I know we will come on to this later, but I would particularly welcome comments from the Minister on guidance to local authorities in this area, which reflects a number of the points in these amendments, as well.
The issues around packaging are also surprisingly important to the industry. We are not asking for anything other than a commitment to the continuation of existing legislation, which protects how speciality tobacconists display cigar products and can trade new and, importantly, vintage cigars. These products have to be stored and distributed in cedar or cedar-lined wooden boxes, which cannot be changed at source. It is important for noble Lords to understand this; they have to be transported in a certain way, in a certain type of box. It is not simply about moving them into some other type of packaging; and the packaging cannot be changed at source, since they predominantly come from important trading partners such as Cuba or the Dominican Republic, which do not have the capacity to change the packaging to enable us to have plain packaging.
By the way, the boxing and labelling system also helps ensure authenticity. This follows the discussion we had about counterfeiting earlier.
It is also important to recognise that these boxes and how the cigars are packaged are a far cry from packaging that advertises or that is targeted at children. It should be noted that health warnings are already applied to all these boxes. I stress that we are not looking for a carve-out or loophole with these amendments; we are looking simply for the continuation of a sensible policy to allow a niche industry of speciality tobacconists, with important trading partners, to exist and continue its trade as planned. This fits in with the express quotes from the Minister that, in effect, preserving the status quo as it stands today and rolling it forward is part of the Government’s agenda. We respect that and find it enormously helpful.
There is overwhelming evidence that going back on this original legal commitment would mean the end of the specialist cigar industry, so if we introduced plain packaging, it would be devastating for this important area of our economy and would have no benefit to the overall plan of making Britain smoke-free either.
I went to inspect the offices of Hunters & Frankau, which is the main importer of Cuban cigars, to see how a ban on ordinary box packaging could be implemented. If your Lordships saw the hundreds, if not thousands, of product lines in this Indiana Jones-like warehouse—I must say, when I had a chance to tour those storerooms, it was a very happy moment for me—your Lordships would see that it is totally impractical to bring in some type of plain packaging, given the way these authentic handmade products are sourced and distributed.
Canada and Australia have been quoted as having brought these measures into place. They are very different markets, so I do not think they are comparable in reality. In actuality, it has led to the almost total collapse of the handmade cigar industry as a result of the reduction of lines from many hundreds down to a few tens. The effect has not been on large multinationals or big tobacco; it has been the closure of many small businesses. Family-owned tobacconists and specialty suppliers have closed as a result. Needless to say, the consumer also suffers.
Finally, I would be grateful to hear confirmation that the Government have no plans to go back on previous legislation that allowed for a very small number of sampling rooms in this country—I believe the number is fewer than 30. These are not to be confused with so-called cigar lounges, of which there are many, which are predominantly outdoor areas, albeit with some type of heating and sometimes roofing. The investment in these humidors, which is what they are, with sampling rooms attached, has been significant. Several major hotels have integrated them into their business model. They are part of the supply chain of handmade premium cigars and to disestablish them would cause significant unnecessary harm.
I reassure noble Lords that at no point will these actions create a loophole for big tobacco. I am very aware that that has happened in the past, with flavourings, cigarillos and so on. Protecting these characteristics will not see an increase in youth smoking. I think we are all agreed on that. No one I have met, even those who are most fanatical about this Bill—some people are, and I do not disrespect that—wants to see an end to our specialist tobacconist industry today.
These are small, family-owned businesses, which behave impeccably, are drivers of tourism, create income for the Exchequer and behave extremely effectively in providing a niche community with cigars. To have clear commitments about these important matters from the Minister at the Dispatch Box would allow the industry to continue to be a highly responsible part of British retail. It would allow these small, family-owned stores to continue to drive footfall and income for this country. It would be a fair way to treat the adult, free-choosing, occasional cigar smoker into the future too.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, as we have already heard, the amendments in this group seek to carve out exemptions for specialist tobacconists, particularly when it comes to cigars. I will focus primarily on Amendments 126, 127, 147 and 192. I begin by focusing on what cigars actually are. They are often described—and we have heard them described—as luxury or artisanal goods, but they are, first of all, carcinogenic tobacco products that are harmful to human health.
I support the Government’s approach, as the Bill stands, to comprehensive tobacco control regulation that ensures that future generations do not become addicted to any form of tobacco. We have heard arguments that their use is infrequent and primarily among those over the age of 25. Indeed, the absolute numbers show that the majority of cigar smokers are over 25, but that reflects population size. In reality, among smokers—this is a really important point—the younger someone is, the more likely they are to be smoking cigars. Toxic influencers such as Andrew Tate actively promote cigar use to a young, predominantly male audience, linking cigars with power, wealth and success. We know how quickly this kind of influence can spread and be taken up if we leave loopholes for it.
As we have already heard, cigars have traditionally benefited from carve-outs of regulation on things such as pack size, flavours and packaging. Were we to change that now it would open the door to future innovations, as some of the proponents of these amendments have already acknowledged, with, for example, cigarillos. Action on Smoking and Health data shows that these are popular among young people who smoke: 35% of 11 to 17 year-olds have tried them in 2024 and 2025. We must not leave space in the Bill for innovation by the merchants of death, which I am afraid these amendments do.
Although I understand the intention behind the amendments that refer to plain packaging, I do not support them. The suggestion is that plain packaging will be fatal to the industry. I note that New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Ireland and Uruguay all apply standardised packaging to all tobacco products, including cigars. Data from Canada shows that, since that has come in, there has been only a very minor drop in the sale of cigars, in line with traditional long-term trends.
It is also important to note that the power to introduce plain packaging for cigars is not new. It already exists under regulations introduced in 2015 by the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition and implemented by a subsequent Conservative Government. The Government issued a call for evidence on this in November 2024.
Finally, I will touch very briefly on smoke-free places and cigar lounges. I do not support Amendment 192. Yes, the customers may choose to be in that space, but the staff may not have a realistic practical choice about being there; it may be the only job they can get. We do not want workers exposed to second-hand smoke under those kinds of conditions.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Walmsley signed Amendment 126, to which the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, referred. It seeks, above all, to ensure that all small retailers are treated fairly. I am sure the Minister will be addressing this.
Moving on to cigars and cigar lounges generally, I do not see why these should be exempt. In Committee, we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsey, about a new cigar lounge in Sheffield which has opened near a school. A public health team at the council made representations saying that it had serious concerns about the impact of the lounge, particularly in an area where smoking causes great health inequalities, but it was powerless to stop this. As we have just heard, having staff working indoors in these lounges seems to go against the very intention of the original smoke-free legislation, which was to protect staff from the harmful impact of second-hand smoke.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Lindsay’s excellent and persuasive arguments in support of the amendments in his name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, who is not in his place, cannot be bettered, so I shall not try to, except to say that I support them.
Regardless of one’s attitude to smoking, there is a general recognition of the important role that specialist tobacconists play. They are small, highly regulated businesses that serve a discerning adult clientele. They are not engaged in the mass-marketing of cigarettes, nor are they driving youth uptake. Specifically, handmade cigars are not cigarillos. Premium handmade cigars are luxury products, purchased occasionally at a considerable cost by informed adult consumers. I was surprised to learn in Committee that they attract overseas visitors, who spend huge amounts of money here in the UK because these handmade cigars are packaged and marketed in a way that is unique to the United Kingdom. It is difficult to see how such establishments constitute a meaningful threat to the Government’s stated objective of reducing youth smoking and creating a smoke-free generation.
I stress that many of the criticisms made of cigars are made of cigarillos, but it is important that we distinguish between cigarillos and the unique products that are artisan cigars, whatever one thinks of them. I do not smoke; I think smoking is a disgusting habit. I do not drink alcohol; I think drinking alcohol is a terrible thing. But I am a liberal and I do not seek to impose my views on other people. It is important to distinguish between handmade crafted cigars and mass-marketed cigarillos, which may well be attractive to young people. I believe that cigarillos should be seen in the same light as cigarettes.
Since the introduction of the Bill, there has obviously been enormous anxiety among specialist tobacconists around the country about what the Government might choose to do to their day-to-day businesses. These amendments will, I hope, provide the Minister with an opportunity to reassure the sector. There is real concern that if plain packaging regulations were to be imposed on hand-rolled cigars, this would constitute an almost instant death for every specialist tobacco business. We heard about other countries where plain packaging has been imposed, but the UK continues to attract people who want to buy the packaging and all the marketing around it, whatever we may think of it.
For the good reasons already stated, these businesses enjoy special dispensations from the provisions of the law which apply to the generality of tobacco retailing. These dispensations are well founded, well understood and respected across the supply chain. As far as I am aware, they have not been abused. Many of the complaints about the uptake of cigar smoking are in relation not to these types of cigars but to cigarillos. This area of tobacco retailing is so niche that it is irrelevant to the vast majority of smokers. There is no reasonable case for the Government to choose to exercise powers to impede, restrict or otherwise alter the day-to-day lives of those involved in this specialist sector.
To be clear, I am talking about packaging. I am not referring to any of the amendments concerned with cigar lounges. I understand the concerns that have been expressed about workers who may not wish to be exposed to cigars but have no choice but to take that job and be exposed. I am talking about specialist tobacco manufacturers and retailers. Obviously, any attempts to restrict these businesses would involve some consultation with the Department for Business and Trade, so I sincerely hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that the Government have no intentions to restrict the specialist manufacturers in this way and to make their businesses unviable.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. On Amendments 127 and 147, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and Amendment 126, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I have listened to the points that have been raised by noble Lords, not just today in the Chamber but in engaging outside the Chamber, which I have been pleased to do, and I have listened to the calls for handmade cigars to be exempt from packaging provisions in this legislation.
I remind the House, as I have had to remind noble Lords in other discussions, that the powers to regulate the packaging of all tobacco products are not new; they already exist. They were first introduced under the coalition Government as part of the Children and Families Act 2014. At the time when the powers were introduced, the Government of the time rightly recognised the need to ensure that these powers applied to all tobacco products, future-proofing the legislation, so introducing an exemption for handmade cigars now would weaken what is in effect long-standing legislation. I remind noble Lords that one of the points about the Bill is to bring together legislation that is in other areas into a Tobacco and Vapes Bill, which is what we are doing.
As I have said on a number of occasions, all tobacco products are harmful. That includes cigars and those marketed as premium or handmade. When burned, all tobacco products release toxic compounds that pose a risk to the user. In fact, research has found that some toxicants, including carbon monoxide and certain carcinogens, are higher in cigar smoke than cigarette smoke, and of course the toxicants that are found in tobacco smoke in cigars increase the user’s risk of developing diseases such as cancer, heart disease or respiratory disease. As the four Chief Medical Officers of the UK set out in their technical note to noble Lords, any suggestion that cigars are substantially safer than other tobacco products is not accurate.
Given the health harms of all cigars, it is appropriate that they are in scope of the legislation and that the Government retain our current ability, introduced in 2014, to regulate the packaging of all tobacco products. Moreover, exempting product categories is likely to lead to exploitation by the tobacco industry, which will always find a loophole to exploit. For example, following the ban on menthol cigarettes in 2020, tobacco companies began marketing cigarette-like menthol-flavoured cigarillos.
I shall provide some assistance on the points being raised today. As I said, I have heard concerns from noble Lords about future packaging restrictions that could impact specialist tobacconists more significantly than other retailers, and concerns about potential unfairness arising from that. I can say, as I have said before, that it is absolutely not this Government’s intention for any future packaging requirements to put any small businesses, including specialist tobacconists, out of business. Our intent is that any future packaging regulations make the health harms of these products clear while minimising the impact on businesses.
The noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, asked about future regulation on packaging. If that is to be the case, further impact assessments will be prepared in advance, including the economic impact of any proposed regulations. The policy proposals for any packaging requirements will be a matter for consultation, and all businesses—including, I am sure, specialist tobacconists —will want to respond and will be welcome to. I want also to be clear that the Government will consider the impact any policy proposal has on small businesses, including specialist tobacconists, via future published impact assessments, as I just said. It is important, however, despite these points, that the Government retain their current powers to regulate the packaging of all tobacco products, as any carve-out would potentially create loopholes for exploitation, as other noble Lords have expressed concern about.
Amendment 192 from the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, seeks to maintain the existing exemption to allow individuals to sample cigars and pipe tobacco indoors in an enclosed and ventilated area in a specialist tobacconist shop. The Government are, as noble Lords know, committed to protecting people from the harms of second-hand smoke, which is why we launched a consultation on expanding smoke-free places on 13 February.
On the point the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, made, there are a number of exemptions to the current smoke-free legislation, including an exemption for sampling rooms—not smoking lounges, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, referred to—in specialist tobacconists, providing certain criteria are met, as outlined. The Government do not intend to remove this existing exemption for specialist tobacconists. The consultation explicitly states our intention for the exemption to remain.
Finally, Amendments 18 and 19, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, seek to maintain the existing exemption for specialist tobacconists to display tobacco products. There are several exemptions to the current tobacco display legislation, including an exemption for specialist tobacconists. In England, this allows specialist tobacconists to display tobacco products as long as they are not visible from outside the premises. The Government’s intention is not to remove this existing exemption for specialist tobacconists. This will be reflected when we consult on future display regulations later this year.
It is important that the Bill balances the public health aims with any disproportionate impacts on businesses, including specialist tobacconists. However, we will continue to monitor this niche market to ensure that it is not targeting young people or exploiting the existing exemptions. I hope that, on this basis, the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
The Earl of Lindsay (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the thoughtful answers she has given to the various points my amendments have raised. I am also grateful for the time she allowed for discussions between Committee and Report to understand the issues better; my thanks to her. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Johnson of Lainston and Lord Kamall for the support they have offered for these amendments.
Before coming back to what the Minister said, I say to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Northover, that there is quite a lot of confusion over the statistics relating to cigars as a generic category. I remind both of them that my amendments deal solely with handmade cigars, not with cigars as a single generic whole.
As I said, handmade cigars are not inhaled. They are relatively expensive compared with other smoking options. A lot of cigars out there on the market are machine made; some of them are small enough to be cigarillos. The statistics about young people indulging in cigar smoking almost wholly relate to people who are smoking not handmade cigars but other types of cigar.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I am very aware of the hour, but I just had a quick look online and saw “Andrew Tate’s favourite cigars”—exactly the kind of very expensive products that the noble Earl is talking about. That is what is being promoted to young men in particular.
The Earl of Lindsay (Con)
I remind the noble Baroness that very expensive cigars are usually unaffordable to young people, which is why the vast majority of cigar smokers are over the age of 25 and most of them are over the age of 35. The statistics bear that out.
I am grateful for all the interest that these amendments have inspired. Most of all, I am grateful to the Minister for the very thoughtful response that she has given and for her undertakings that it is not currently the Government’s intention to remove certain practices that allow the specialist tobacconist sector to continue. These are important because, despite what has been suggested, I re-emphasise that handmade cigars are not inhaled or habitual. They are almost solely associated with occasions such as Christmas and birthday parties and the up-market hospitality venues. For the continued survival of the almost always family-owned specialist tobacconist, continued access to handmade cigars for those types of events and occasions is extremely important to maintain. The Minister’s assurances will be valued by all those in the handmade cigar sector.
Baroness Merron
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, and my amendments to clauses 62, 80, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 120, 122, 123 and 124, would ensure that the effect of a person’s action is considered by reference to what it will be, rather than what it currently is (for consistency with the mental element of these offences).
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the amendments in this group are government amendments relating to the advertising provisions. They are in large part technical in nature, but they have a clear and important purpose: to stop the advertising and promotion of products that risk addicting a new generation to nicotine. They also ensure that the regime is clear and capable of being enforced fairly and consistently across all settings, whether online or offline.
We know why we are here today. In 2025, more than 1 million children reported having tried vaping. We have seen the brightly coloured and cartoon advertisements that have clearly appealed to young people. The Bill delivers on this Government’s mandate to stop the blatant advertising of vapes to children while continuing to support adult smokers to quit.
Government Amendments 20, 99, 111, 148, 150, 154, 156, 158, 160, 162, 164, 167 and 170 to 172 are minor and technical amendments. They simply update the wording across the clauses that create offences relating to free distribution, advertising, brand sharing and sponsorship. These amendments will ensure that the offence is committed, for example, as soon as an advert is published, which may not have been the case in some circumstances. That means that, for example, if a leaflet with an advert is put through a letterbox, the offence arises when it is delivered, not when the resident eventually reads it.
I have also tabled Amendment 165, which restores specific exceptions that already exist in current law. These make it clear that intermediaries—companies such as TalkTalk or BT—that provide passive internet services such as internet access cannot be liable for advertising offences in certain circumstances. This does not reflect a change in policy. The Bill does not intend to change the circumstance in which passive service providers may be liable. However, to put the matter beyond doubt, these amendments explicitly protect providers of passive services who have no ability to control, publish or remove adverts if they satisfy the circumstances prescribed in the exceptions.
Government Amendments 173 to 174, 179, 180 to 183, and 185 to 187 make it clear that the product placement provisions in Part 6 are not retrospective. They restate the existing law in relation to tobacco, and ensure that the new restrictions apply only going forward and do not affect programmes made before they came into force. This means that broadcasters or on-demand programme service providers will not be required to review or edit existing programmes. Finally, Amendment 184 removes now redundant amendments to video-sharing legislation that was repealed by the Online Safety Act 2023.
I turn to what is perhaps the most substantive amendment in this group—Amendment 166—and Amendments 175 to 178 on the public health defence. In Committee, I explained that the Bill already allows public health authorities to take certain steps to promote vapes as a means to quit smoking. Noble Lords raised important questions about how this applies to pharmacists, pharmacies and GP practices that both support smoking cessation and operate as businesses. I listened carefully to these concerns and, in response, I tabled an amendment creating a specific defence to provide clarity on how this will work in practice. This amendment allows businesses to promote non-branded vapes and nicotine products where it is done in arrangement with the public authority for public health reasons. In practice, this means that public authorities will continue to be able to partner with businesses such as pharmacies to run effective public health campaigns that promote vaping for smoking cessation.
We have also replicated this exception for on-demand programme services to ensure that public health authorities can continue to work with businesses to promote vaping for smoking cessation through these platforms. I hope this provides reassurance to noble Lords that healthcare professionals, including pharmacists and GPs, can continue to display smoking cessation materials. It also ensures that others, such as design agencies commissioned by public authorities, will not be caught inadvertently by the offence provisions when supporting this work.
I know that all these matters were of concern to noble Lords; I am therefore, as I said, glad to put forward amendments to tackle these very real points. I look forward to hearing the views and contributions of noble Lords in this debate, and I hope I can count on their support.
Baroness Northover (LD)
From these Benches, the Minister can count on our support.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, the hour is late and, given that some of my noble friends have left the Chamber—no doubt to enjoy a very expensive handcrafted cigar—it is left to my noble friend Lord Effingham and me to offer the opposition. If I had any temptation to call a Division, I can see that I am outnumbered.
I thank the Minister for tabling these amendments. I know that many of them are technical, but some are very important. I particularly welcome Amendment 165, which provides sensible protection for internet service providers acting merely as conduits, caching services or passive hosts. They are not really active in this space. They do not initiate, select or modify the content transmitted across their networks, and it would not be fair or practical to render them criminally liable for material of which they have no knowledge and over which they exercise no control.
Similarly, Amendments 166 and 178 ensure that legitimate public health campaigns are not inadvertently caught out by the advertising offences in the Bill. Where a person is acting in accordance with arrangements made by a public authority and for the purpose of promoting or protecting public health, it would be wrong for them to face criminal liability.
Finally, we welcome Amendment 183 because it ensures that the new restrictions do not apply retrospectively to programmes that were already in production before the new rules came into force. I suppose this is all a very long way of saying that we welcome the amendments from the Government.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am delighted to receive the support of both Front Benches, either in a few words or in a few more words. This is to fulfil a mandate to stop the blatant advertising of vapes to children, while continuing to support adult smokers to quit. I therefore commend the amendment to the House.