Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, these Benches believe the Government should engage internationally, and the Prime Minister likewise, to operate with allies and competitors alike. But when it comes to competitors who have been proven to also be adversaries and security risks, that engagement, if transactional, must actively de-risk.
On the Chinese risk to our economy and Parliament, and of industrial espionage, the relationship did not start when this Government took office. Indeed, part of the task should now be to try to remove some of China’s enhanced ability to operate that was in place under the previous Government. If the Government are playing a hand of cards badly now, the entire pack had been given previously to Beijing. We had the biggest trade deficit with China of any country in the history of our trade, peaking under Liz Truss at a trade deficit of over £50 billion. That meant our trading relationship was so out of balance that our ability to lever in any transactions was greatly reduced. I understand if the Government are seeking to reset the relationship, perhaps without going back to the “golden era” that George Osborne heralded in 2015, but a realistic one should ensure that we de-risk our relationship with China. Part of that would be ensuring that those who live in this country are not threatened by another country and do not have bounties placed on them. Did the Prime Minister state to President Xi that putting a bounty on anyone in this country is both utterly unacceptable and should be criminalised? Did we get an assurance that they will be lifted and never put in place again? Diplomacy is good; however, actions on this are necessary.
As we heard, we have been warned by MI5 of commercial espionage by China on an industrial scale. One of the key areas is our education sector, so can the Leader of the House be clear that we are confident of our intellectual property rights in any new relationship with China going forward? I read with a degree of concern that we are starting the process of a service trade agreement feasibility study. I asked the Minister for Development about this, highlighting that the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats were as one before the last general election in seeking human rights clauses in trading agreements. Can the Leader of the House confirm that, if we are to have any service trade agreement with China, there will be human rights clauses within it and clear intellectual property protections?
On the embassy, there have been reports that the Prime Minister’s visit was not confirmed unless and until the embassy was approved. Ministers have said that only material planning issues were considered. Can the Leader of the House be clear and deny that there was any diplomatic communication with Beijing about the embassy?
If there is one element we have seen recently in Beijing’s purge of the military, it is the more belligerent tone on the regional areas of concern. It was a great pleasure this afternoon to meet with one of our Taiwanese sister party’s MPs to discuss the enhanced concern in Taiwan about that belligerent tone. The Prime Minister said in the House of Commons that he had raised the issue of Taiwan. Can the Leader of the House outline a little more what we raised? This is an opportunity to enhance our trading relationship not only with Beijing but with Taiwan, as being a friend of Taiwan does not mean being an enemy of China. When it comes to the key sectors of semi-conductors, technology and educational research, Taiwan is a trusted partner with strong institutions, the rule of law and human rights—and it is a democracy. Therefore, our relationship should be enhanced, but not at the cost of the relationship with China. Did President Xi seek to put pressure on the UK to diminish our relationship with Taiwan? That would be a very retrograde step.
On Japan, the situation is very positive. Our relationship is strong and can be enhanced, and I welcome the Government’s moves to do so. The Leader of the Opposition mentioned the Global Combat Air Programme; more information on timing and costs would be most helpful. Will the defence investment plan reflect the Tempest programme and the practical arrangements?
Finally, on whisky, for which both the noble Lord and I have a fondness, I agree that the situation is positive. Any deal that enhances the Scotch whisky industry is a good one. I remind noble Lords that, while it is beneficial that Beijing tariffs will be reduced, our most profitable and valuable malt whisky market in the world is Taiwan, and that should be a lesson for us.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
I am grateful to both noble Lords for their comments. Those from the noble Lord, Lord True, clearly underline the fundamental difference between the party opposite and us. Let us just start from where we are. The fundamental difference is that the party opposite went from a golden age of engagement to an ice age of engagement. Noble Lords referred to resetting the relationship with China. I do not think it is a reset; it is establishing a relationship that has been absent for the last eight years. I have to say to the noble Lord opposite that if the only countries he wants the Prime Minister to engage with are those with which we are in 100% agreement on every issue, it does this country a great disservice. Only through engagement with countries with which we have differences will we make progress, for the benefit of this country, on the kinds of issues the noble Lords have spoken about.
It is a choice we make. For eight years, the party opposite made the choice not to engage or have prime ministerial visits. We have made a different choice, in the national interest. That does not in any sense mean that we are not going to raise, and did not raise, important issues of concern regarding security, human rights and individuals. The only way you resolve those issues is by dialogue. You are not going to make all the progress needed or resolve all the issues the first time you establish dialogue, but if you do not make that start, nothing is going to happen. I do not much see evidence of the last eight years of disengagement working for the benefit of this country. If we look at other countries, this country has stood back in the last eight years. President Macron visited China three times, and the German leader visited four times, and the USA and Canada have plans in place. Engagement is possible and provides a new opportunity to develop a new, different kind of relationship, as the noble Lord alluded to.
Both noble Lords raised the issue of the embassy. I do not think I need to remind this House that decisions on planning issues are quasi-judicial and taken in that context. It is not a matter for the Prime Minister; it is a matter for the Secretary of State.
The decision must be taken on planning grounds, but issues of national security can be taken into account. It might assist the House if I read a short comment from a longer letter from GCHQ and the security services. I remind noble Lords that there have been Chinese embassies in this country since, I believe, 1788. Those embassies are currently across seven different sites across the UK. In terms of the benefits we get, the letter I have to the Secretaries of State from the security services and from GCHQ says that the consolidation should bring “clear security advantages”. That is important to note.
Also, when the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament looked at that, where issues of process were raised, it concluded that
“the national security concerns that arise can be satisfactorily mitigated”.
That shows how seriously the Government take this issue. That does not mean we are not alive to other security issues, but the advice from GCHQ and MI5, and from the Intelligence and Security Committee, is something we should take note of.
The noble Lord, Lord True, raised the issue of sanctions and the righting of a terrible wrong. Yes, he is right and it is important that China has done so. It is absolutely appalling that any sanctions should remain on parliamentarians at all. There are still further discussions on how much further we can take that but, in terms of making progress, it is an important first step to have made.
The noble Lords asked about a range of issues. As I was not in the room, I cannot give a complete readout of who said what and what the response was. What I think is the most important thing, however, is how these issues were raised. The issue of the Uyghurs and the issue in Hong Kong and of Hong Kong residents in this country are issues we cannot accept in any way at all. It is a terrible situation. It is something the Prime Minister felt very strongly about and, along with the imprisonment of Jimmy Lai, it was on the Prime Minister’s agenda and was raised and discussed.
On Jimmy Lai, it is worth saying that what his family must be going through and what he must be going through is completely and totally unacceptable. He is a British citizen, he is in poor health and he should be at home with his family. We will continue to raise this. It is sad that lack of engagement, saying, “We do not agree with you”, has not made any progress. The only way we can make progress is by having that engagement. But there can be no doubt at all about the strength of feeling from the Prime Minister and others on this issue.
I am running out of time, so I will quickly try to address the many other questions in a couple of minutes. Yes, we remain fully committed to GCAP; yes, the issues of British Steel are at the forefront of the Prime Minister’s mind; and yes, of course, it is important for the whisky industry. Perhaps I can just make a plea for Northern Ireland whiskey as well; I am not a whiskey drinker, but I understand that Bushmills would be my favourite if I were. My Northern Ireland colleagues may not be here, but I see there is a Bushmills drinker here.
Taking this forward, security is very important. We have been unequivocal in our support for Taiwan. On Ukraine, the Prime Minister spoke to President Zelensky before he went to China—before he raised Ukraine with President Xi. He spoke to President Zelensky afterwards as well. We are being very clear about our support for Ukraine. We do not in any way condone, support or even accept China’s support for Russia on this. It is quite clear the Prime Minister made that point.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the Prime Minister’s recent initiative. Is not the constant criticism by some of China, in the mistaken belief that isolation and shouting abuse are somehow going to positively influence events, both reckless and counter- productive? It will be ignored by China, of course. Is not the way forward to dilute conflict by promoting harmony and co-operation in every area of human endeavour: sport, finance, culture, educational exchange and human rights? And, most important, should we not be getting in close to deal with problems arising from dollar devaluation and the inevitable emphasis China will now place on exports to Europe?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble Lord raises a number of issues, but the bottom line is that he asks whether engagement is better than stepping away and shouting. That is the fundamental difference between us and the party opposite. The kinds of issues he raises about investment, business and trade are important, but it is also important that we challenge. So, co-operation and engagement are key, as are cultural exchanges, which were quite a big part of the delegation. Sixty businesses and organisations travelled with the Prime Minister, many of them representing cultural organisations. That is really important and helps the understanding between peoples, not just between Governments. But we also have to challenge where we have differences, and that will continue alongside engagement.
The Earl of Minto (Con)
My Lords, given the profound uncertainty surrounding the UK’s treaty with Mauritius in respect of the Chagos Islands, can the noble Baroness the Lord Privy Seal confirm that further consideration of this Bill will not resume until the necessary amendments to the 1966 treaty—UN treaty 8737—between the UK and the United States have been made?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I must say to the noble Lord that I am responsible for many things, but the timing of our debates is a matter not for me but for the Chief Whip, who might not appreciate me saying what the timing could be. I will say to the noble Earl that we are in discussion with the Americans, as we have been throughout on this, but I have never, in all my time in this House, known a party table a Motion at ping-pong to delay ping-pong. That I think is unprecedented. On the substance of his point, yes, we are engaged with the Americans and we look forward to bringing the Motion forward in due course.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
My Lords, as chair of the UK-Japan 21st Century Group, I warmly welcome the Prime Minister’s visit to Japan, following his visit to China and emphasise how important it is that we visit, link up with, negotiate with and do deals with our best friends, as well as those who are more challenging. In particular, can I ask whether the Prime Minister, during his visit to Japan, discussed with the Prime Minister of Japan the refreshing of the Hiroshima Accord that was established by Prime Minister Sunak and which has forged a new partnership between this country and Japan that is leading to significant investment, very good co-operation on science and technology and strengthening defence globally?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his interest and his role in this. Japan has been a valued partner and it has been a very deep relationship, for instance with £33 billion in annual trade and 150,000 jobs created. Japan is our closest security partner in Asia. On the noble Lord’s particular point about the Hiroshima Accord, I will look into that and come back to him. On a number of issues where we are in agreement, I would highlight the support Japan has given to Ukraine. Japan has been the fifth-largest provider of non-military assistance and it has been a key member of the coalition of the willing. I think that shows the strength. I would also say that most of us regard the Japanese ambassador, Ambassador Suzuki, with a great deal of affection. He has really taken the UK to his heart and the UK has taken him to our hearts.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, following the issue of sanctions, in my case it is one down and three to go. I welcome the intervention that the Prime Minister made on behalf of those parliamentarians who have been sanctioned—not by China but by the Chinese Communist Party. Many of us are careful to make that distinction. Jo Smith Finley, the Uyghur scholar based at Newcastle University, is still sanctioned; Sir Geoffrey Nice, KC, one of our most celebrated human rights lawyers, who chaired the Uyghur Tribunal, is still sanctioned. Tim Loughton, former Member of the House of Commons, is still sanctioned. We have had nothing in writing about the sanctions on our own families, as well. I do hope that we can expedite that as soon as possible.
I want to drill down deeper on the points raised by the noble Lords, Lord True and Lord Purvis, on dependence and resilience. With a trade deficit of more than £40 billion, should we not do all we possibly can to remove our dependency on the People’s Republic of China? That is not to say that we should disengage, but making ourselves dependent in crucial sectors surely cannot be right. Following what I heard yesterday at a round table I chaired here in Parliament for the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Uyghurs, what have we done to ensure that goods that have been made by slave labour in Xinjiang are removed from our supply chains, not least solar panels and many of the things we buy into the National Health Service?
I will also ask about transnational repression; the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, raised this point. Many of us have met Chloe Cheung, a brave young woman, just in her 20s, who has a bounty of 1 million Hong Kong dollars on her head. Carmen Lau, who was a Hong Kong district councillor, has a similar bounty on her head, and a further 10 residents in the UK have those kinds of bounties. That cannot be right. Did we raise that question with President Xi? What progress can we make on that?
On 26 February, this House will debate the report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights on transnational repression. Will we be able to answer the question about the foreign influence registration scheme and our failure to put the People’s Republic of China into it, even though we have put Russia and Iran into it?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord. He is absolutely right: in every circumstance, sanctions are wrong. I am myself sanctioned —not by the Chinese Communist Party but by Russia—as are a number of Members of this House.
The noble Lord raised Hong Kong as well. The Prime Minister was candid and robust in raising these issues. We will get clarity for the noble Lord—discussions are ongoing—but the principle has been established, and we want to take that on as we can.
The noble Lord asked about supply chains, and about dependence and resilience. We do not rely on one country. The trade deals that this country has done are significant; look at the work we are doing with the EU, and our trade deals with India and the USA. All those play a part, and the noble Lord is right to raise that issue. I hope that we can get back to him fairly soon with further clarity, but he is absolutely right. All those issues were raised, and we are not prepared to accept sanctions on British citizens.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, can the noble Baroness the Leader of the House assure us that the candid robustness of the Prime Minister on Hong Kong included giving the very firm message to Beijing that no return visit by President Xi could be considered while Jimmy Lai is still imprisoned in Hong Kong and—heaven forfend—if he were to die in prison?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, the Government will do everything in their power to ensure that Jimmy Lai does not die in prison. No one wants to see that, and I am surprised that the noble Baroness raised it in those terms. We want to secure Jimmy Lai’s release. She asked about a visit. The only visit that I am aware of where the Chinese President could come to the UK is the G20 visit. We do not say, “Unless you do this”; it is not conditional. We are trying everything we can to ensure Jimmy Lai’s release.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for addressing this important Statement. I draw you Lordships’ House’s attention to my entries in the register of interests, particularly my role as vice-chair of the Nuclear Threat Initiative. Ministers routinely refuse to answer questions in Parliament about nuclear weapons, often citing the phrase “for obvious reasons”. On Monday in the Commons, my honourable friend John Grady MP asked whether the Prime Minister had had discussions with President Xi about nuclear weapons. In response, the Prime Minister informed the other place that he had discussed with President Xi how to
“derisk the risk in relation to nuclear weapons”.—[Official Report, Commons, 2/2/26; col. 36.]
In 2022, the United Kingdom, under a Conservative Government, together with the other P5 members, affirmed its intention
“to maintain and further strengthen our national measures to prevent unauthorised or unintended use of nuclear weapons”.
The same Government reaffirmed that in 2024 with no qualifications. Can my noble friend build on this hugely welcome precedent of transparency and persuade the Government to make time for a debate on this issue in Parliament? Given my impending retirement, this request is wholly altruistic, as I will not be able to participate, but I believe that it would be a welcome step forward for parliamentary accountability.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My noble friend— I use that word in every sense, since he and I were Ministers together in Northern Ireland—asked me for a debate. When he announced his retirement from this House, I think he heard the response from many noble Lords, which illustrated how much he will be missed here; I will certainly miss him on a personal level too. The Prime Minister also paid tribute to my noble friend when he answered that question in the House of Commons, which does not happen for many of us.
The Prime Minister did indeed answer that question, but I think I can go a bit further on the substance of the point. It is quite clear that the Government will increase their efforts to work with China on halting nuclear proliferation, maintaining strategic stability, and advancing progress on conflict prevention, resolution and peacekeeping, in line with the UN charter and the responsibilities for permanent members. Given my noble friend’s work with the Nuclear Threat Initiative, this House would be poorer in having a debate without him present. I will not try to take on the Chief Whip’s role in suggesting a debate; it is something that the House debates from time to time, but I will pass on my noble friend’s comments. I end by saying that he will be greatly missed by this House.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)
My Lords, one British citizen is being held by the Chinese in solitary confinement, as other noble Lords have mentioned. There is something I genuinely cannot understand: as the visit was being arranged, and as we were giving permission for a huge Chinese embassy, why was this one British citizen not made an absolutely key issue before the Prime Minister was even prepared to go to China?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, it is a key issue. It is important that the Prime Minister, for the first time since Jimmy Lai has been in prison, was able to raise this issue face to face with the Chinese—that has not happened before. I do not think that any of us will be satisfied until Jimmy Lai is released; that is the only point at which we will be satisfied with all the engagement that is taking place. I give the noble Baroness a categorical assurance that this issue is being raised at every opportunity and that we will continue to raise it until he is released.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the Statement and the Prime Minister’s visit to Japan and China. As the Leader of the Opposition said, such visits are a vital part of the work of every Prime Minister. The Statement on China refers to a dedicated dialogue on cyber security. Can my noble friend tell the House any more about what that might involve?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I cannot give details, but discussions are taking place. I think we all understand the threats of cyber security, and why we have to minimise them and not accept them from any part of the world against anyone in the UK or any UK institution. Those discussions are ongoing, and it is important that we have them. The present situation is not what we wish to see. That is why it was so important that, when the embassy got planning permission, we included the security implications in the decision-making process. My noble friend is more of an expert on cyber issues than I am, but I assure him that discussions are ongoing and will continue.
Lord Garnier (Con)
My Lords, the whole House respects both the Leader of the House and her noble friend the Foreign Office Minister, who is sitting alongside her. As I said the other day to the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, the problem that we face in this House —those of us who are not Foreign Office Ministers—is that when Ministers in this House use expressions such as “challenge” or “robustly raise”, it sadly does not mean very much. They are delightful generalisations, and they breed a form of suspicion that all that is happening is that a formula is being adhered to.
Is the Leader of the House able to be a little more forthcoming? The noble Baroness the Minister of State at the Foreign Office was not in the room when the Chinese ambassador was summoned to the Foreign Office, so she was unable to tell me what exchanges took place, albeit she may later have had some form of readout. We need a little more detail. Nobody is suggesting that the Government are not being candid with us but perhaps they can be a little more open in the secrecy of this Chamber and let us know precisely what “challenge” and “raising robustly” mean. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and my noble friend Lord True said, there are grounds for concern that “robust” and “challenge” have a different meaning in the Government from on the street?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Given that we have had an aircraft carrier in the area, I think that is fairly robust. I will get the precise details for the noble and learned Lord. He has been a Minister himself, and he is being a little cheeky. On the secrecy of the House of Lords, there are thousands watching our proceedings. Hansard is published.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble and learned Lord says millions. He may be more optimistic than I am, but we are hardly meeting in secret. The art of diplomacy is an ongoing process, not a moment. The House understands that. The noble and learned Lord has to accept that when the Prime Minister raises issues that have not been raised for a long time, he will do so to ensure that his voice and that of this country are heard. I do not recognise the noble and learned Lord’s characterisation. Most of us can understand the diplomatic language, perhaps, of “raising” and being “robust” on issues. No one can say that we have not been robust on Ukraine, the Uyghurs and Taiwan. The Prime Minister has not changed his view in any way. He has been quite clear on that. I am unable to give the noble and learned Lord the minutes of the meeting but I can give him the assurance that the Prime Minister raises issues in the way in which the House would expect him to.
Lord Craig of Radley (CB)
There has been a report of a warm relationship between Mauritius and China. Was there any discussion with the Chinese about the Chagos treaty during the Prime Minister’s visit?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am not aware of any discussion specifically on the treaty. On the issue of wider security in the region, certainly in China and Japan, that was an important part of the Prime Minister’s visit because the security of that region is important to us. But I could not say absolutely that Chagos was part of the discussions.
Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (LD)
My Lords, can I press the Leader of House on an issue that my noble friend Lord Purvis raised around human rights in particular, regarding any future potential trade arrangements and ensuring that human rights chapters are included in them? I am concerned that if we do not do so, we will be on a slippery slope every time we negotiate with any nation.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Yes, it is an important part of trade deals that we have the highest standards possible, and human rights are often part of discussions that take place. If one looks at the trade deals that have been done already, one can see that those discussions have taken place and, in many cases, borne fruit.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
The noble Baroness said earlier that steel was at the forefront of the Prime Minister’s mind. We understand that the steel strategy, which is long awaited, is with No. 10 and the Prime Minister at the moment. Can she enlighten us a little more as to when we can expect to see that published? If she cannot do so, will she at least ask the question and come back to us?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble Lord will understand the commitment this Government have to the steel industry in this country. I remember just under a year ago being away on holiday, receiving numerous phone calls and coming back straight to this House on a Saturday to save the steel industry in this country. He may need to be a little bit more patient with the steel strategy but he I think will welcome it in the interests of British Steel when it arrives.