Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, from these Benches I am very happy to associate myself with the noble Lord’s comments with regards to supporting the Government, as we did with the former Government. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, who is in his place, will know that I supported the previous Administration’s approach.
The noble Lord closed by referring to the free world being united; it is no fault of any of our political parties that the free world is no longer united, given the Trump Administration. It is a time for us to consider very carefully how we, with our European and other allies around the world who believe in genuine democracy, will support democracy.
It is worth reminding ourselves that the Putin plan was activated in February 2022 with a timeframe of three days. It had been planned that President Zelensky was either to be detained or assassinated. The Verkhovna Rada, the Ukrainian Parliament, was to be attacked and then dissolved and the Ukrainian people to have a puppet regime imposed on them. That was meant to happen in three days. Three years later, the bravery and the fortitude of the Ukrainian people, led by inspiring leaders and enduring a further war winter in terrible physical and psychological danger and stress, should be an inspiration for us all.
The fact that, under unbearable conditions, Ukraine’s democratic and representative functions continue should also be an inspiration for any democracy, not the source of an attack by a leading democracy led by Trump and Musk. The Minister knows that I have supported, since the current Labour Government have been in place, the sanctions and measures that have been introduced, and we will continue to do so. I welcome the sanctions that were announced today, especially those that seek to reduce the dark fleet, as well as the Russian war economy. We have played our part in the cross-party consensus in approving these measures, but we have also sought, in a constructive manner, to ensure that the Russian war economy does not exploit loopholes or circumvent sanctions with trading partners.
We have been able to have unanimity but also frank exchanges in this Parliament, because that is what democratic Parliaments do. We have also sought to raise the need to do more with our trading partners, who have seen an opportunity to profit from the war without contributing to the peace, be it Dubai or Delhi, seeking more investment from the former without penalty for financing the Kremlin, or, in the latter case, seeking conditionality in trade deal talks that we are now opening up again with India, potentially offering market access and energy to those who are purchasing energy from the Kremlin. We have to be frank with our allies that we have standards in both our trade and our diplomacy, and therefore we want to see that reflected in our agreements with them.
It is also why we have sought to continue the pressure not just for utilising the resource from assets that have been frozen but to seize them. We have debated this in this Chamber before, and the Minister has heard my comments on it. What has happened now with the Trump Administration, and in the vote in the Security Council, and Trump seeking to blackmail Zelensky over mineral rights, is that, frankly, any Russian assets that are seized should now be immobilised against being used by the Putin regime as part of some form of reward for doing a deal which excludes the Ukrainian people. There should be no moveable assets to reward this. There should be no impunity for this aggression, and therefore we should be using the capital of the assets for the benefit of the Ukrainian people.
I agree that we must counter a foreign policy based on lies, as the Statement says. The worry, with the vote in the UN Security Council, is that, increasingly, it is hard to disaggregate the lies and falsehoods from our strongest ally, not necessarily just from our strategic adversary in the Kremlin. As the Polish Foreign Minister put it, the new world is one where we now are seeing the reputation not just of the Trump Administration being put in question, but America as a whole. Given that our relationship with America is so important to our national security and diplomacy, this has to be something of consideration.
Therefore, I close by making the point that the debate we held in this House under my noble friend Lady Northover about the need to protect the rules-based international order was prescient. This is now an urgent matter for the United Kingdom. When it comes to the decision of the Trump Administration to demolish USAID and destroy the reputation of America, the UK response should have been filling the gap, seeing a strategic opportunity for us to expand our soft power and have a debate which means that our national security is one where we keep our people safe but we build up coalitions around the world, we prevent conflict and we work to remove the incentives for conflict, which could be hunger and migration.
The response to what is happening in America is for us to expand our international development, not to cut it by a bigger margin than the previous Government. This is sending the worst signal at the worst time about where the United Kingdom stands. We all support the increase of our national security defence expenditure. It should not be funded on the backs of the most vulnerable in the world, when, ultimately, for our security at home we are seeking to have coalitions abroad. I hope the Government will reconsider.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)
My Lords, we have discussed Ukraine many times in this Chamber, and on every single occasion we have done so there has been close agreement between all parties. I particularly commend the words of the noble Lord, Lord Callanan; he put the case for the Opposition incredibly well and he is supporting this Government as we endeavoured to support his Government when they were in power. And this matters: it is incredibly important that, as a country, we stand together on this issue and I am very proud of the way that this Chamber and the other place have done that again this week.
A just peace means Ukraine at the centre of any resolution. We all agree on that; we have said that consistently and that has not changed. The noble Lord is right to highlight the importance of the transatlantic relationship. We are all aware of what happened last night, but the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary will be going to Washington tomorrow and they will have the conversations that we would want them to have and that we would be proud to see them have on behalf of our country, making clear our position of support for Ukraine, which is in no way diminished.
On sanctions, we continued with a new raft of sanctions to mark the third anniversary. It is very important that we have the support expressed in terms by the Opposition and the Liberal Democrat Benches. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, is absolutely right to continue, as he has done from the very beginning, to look for where we need to go next and to push us and to keep saying, “Why not here? Why not do this? What about these other considerations you could make?” That is right and welcome. We thank him for it and we hope that he continues in that way.
We thank him for reminding us of the bravery of the people of Ukraine. It is worth repeating that this was anticipated to be a short invasion. Zelensky was meant to leave. The world today was meant to be very different from what we see. Thanks to the bravery of the people of Ukraine and the leadership of President Zelensky, we find that Russia is in a situation where it is having to go to North Korea in order to shore up its troops. That has not happened by accident; it has happened because of the resolution of the United Kingdom and its allies and the people of Ukraine.
On the decision to change our development spending to 0.3% to support our defence spending rising to 2.5%, of course this is controversial and not a decision that any Labour Government would wish to make. We created the Department for International Development and we are very proud of it. We are proud, too, of the impact that our aid spending has had across the world over many years. But the world has changed and we have to be able to invest in our armed forces and in new technology that will keep us safe.
I accept what the noble Lord says about the impact that this will have in some places around the world—of course I do. But I am convinced—and I disagree with him on what he said—that actually increasing our defence spending to 2.5% will keep people safe. That is not just people here. It will enable us to prevent conflict; it will enable us to secure Ukraine; and it will provide stability around the world. Sometimes, it is about the tough choices. There is no doubt that this was a tough choice, but I am glad that our Prime Minister was able to make it. He made it quickly and clearly and he will not be rethinking it. We have made our decision. We want to get back to spending more on international development when we can. That relies on growing the economy, which is a key focus of this Government. I hear what he says and I respect what he says, but I have to disagree on that point tonight.
Having said all that, there is no reason that anyone should feel that they cannot continue to press us on this. When it comes to Ukraine, what matters most is that we are united and we maintain our firm and clear position of support, and that any negotiation has the people of Ukraine and their leadership at its centre.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)
My Lords, I will focus on the issues of justice and accountability. It is good that both the Defence Minister and the Attorney-General are present on the Government Front Bench. Can I get the Minister’s reassurance that we will continue to focus on the missing children of Ukraine and on the support we have given for the prevention of sexual violence in conflict? Will the prosecutor general’s office continue to ensure that the perpetrators of crime can be held accountable for their heinous crimes?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I am very happy to provide that assurance to the noble Lord. I thank him for the work that he did while in government, of which he should be very proud. The situation with the children is one that I think wakes many of us at night. We must do whatever we can, and whatever is possible, to get those children home where they belong.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, the foundations of what we have taken for granted in the West, possibly since the Second World War but certainly since the fall of the Berlin Wall, are being put in question by the actions of Mr Trump. It is good that we hear today a remarkable consensus from all sides of the House. I hope that that will be heard not just in Ukraine but in Europe, and even among our friends in the United States. I wonder what has happened to those voices in the US that were so vocal about the strength and importance of the transatlantic alliance.
Three years ago, on the very eve of the invasion—and it was an invasion, pace President Trump—I was at the NATO headquarters in Brussels receiving a briefing. I was told at that time that if the Russians were to invade, Kyiv would fall within three or four days. It did not fall. Why? Because of their bravery, yes, but because of the national morale of the people of Ukraine. There are lessons there for us as a country on the importance of morale at a time of warfare.
It is so important now to see the changes that have taken place and to send out the clear message that we must rally round our friends in Ukraine. There must also be a clear message, from all sides of the House, that in this new world we must put any anti-European ideology aside and be ready to join with our European partners, not just those within the European Union. We must look at ways of sharing our common response. We must get the message through that we stand together and have much to contribute, through our military and intelligence, to our friends in Europe. I am sure my noble friend will agree with my sentiments about bravery, the morale of the people of Ukraine, and the need now to work more closely with our European friends.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My noble friend speaks from a position of great knowledge and experience. I agree with him that it is vital that we work closely and co-ordinate with all our allies, and continue to make the case that it is for the people of Ukraine and their leadership to determine next steps. Obviously, we have to work harder at that now than perhaps we have done previously, but that is a task that I am proud that our Prime Minister is prepared for and is undertaking.
Lord Beamish (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister says that unity in the House is important. That is a clear message that we need to send out tonight. My noble friend knows that the threat from Russia is obviously a military one, but it is also in the grey zone as well. The Intelligence and Security Committee, which I sit on, produced a report in 2020 that highlighted the effects of the Russian disinformation campaign in this country and the use of the City of London as a laundromat. I therefore welcome the sanctions that were announced yesterday. What more can be done, certainly with our overseas territories, to find out where money is being laundered and to stop the abuse that is continuing?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
This is an important point and, as my noble friend would expect, we work very closely with our overseas territories on this issue. He spoke about misinformation, and that is something we work hard on. We should commend our partners, such as the World Service, the British Council and our other soft power partners. The work that they do is sometimes overlooked and underappreciated, but they are very effective at countering this misinformation. That is something we need to spend more time considering, and we might want to invest in some of that as well.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, the Minister has just made an excellent point that I suspect many around this Chamber would agree with: spending more money on the British Council and soft power would be extremely valuable.
The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, mentioned the UN vote, when the United States voted with North Korea and Russia. Slovakia also voted with them—Slovakia is one of the countries that is potentially in Putin’s sights. Beyond that, there are many countries in the Commonwealth that have either abstained or voted against us on the Ukrainian question over the last three years. Does the Minister agree that we should be talking more with our Commonwealth partners? Reducing development aid reduces an opportunity for us to export our influence and will simply pave the way for Russia and China to take a greater role globally.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We talk about Ukraine in every interaction that we have with all our partners, whether they are in the Commonwealth or not. To that extent, the noble Baroness is right. When we cut our official development assistance spend, there is clearly a trade-off, so the noble Baroness is right. What she says is not completely wrong. We have to make these difficult choices, but having a Ministry of Defence that is underpowered and underresourced would have not just a hard power but a soft power impact.
Lord Shinkwin (Con)
My Lords, the Minister commended the Ukrainian people on their heroic bravery, and I commend President Zelensky as well. Does the Minister agree with me that, ultimately, their front line is our front line?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
That is completely right, and I thank the noble Lord for reminding us of it. The idea that this conflict does not directly affect the people of the United Kingdom is wrong. It is important that we remind people in our country that the conflict in Ukraine and the invasion by Russia are a threat to our security here.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, the House has been united on Ukraine and I hope it will be united in wishing the Prime Minister well in his visit to Washington. The Statement we are discussing now should have been taken in conjunction with the Statement made by the Prime Minister in another place about defence spending. Does my noble friend agree that the world is changing before our eyes? The recent UN vote, to which reference has already been made, is the most dramatic example from the last 80 years of the fact that we may have to face a future in which the protection of America is not there, in the way that it has been all my life.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
The world is changing. It changed when Russia invaded Ukraine, and we have tried to respond as best we can to support the people of Ukraine ever since. I am glad that we have a Prime Minister who is clear in what he thinks about this. He is very persuasive and he will take his message to Washington to discuss it respectfully with President Trump, as we would want. We agree with President Trump’s desire to see peace in Ukraine. Yes, there are things to talk about and there may be some differences. We should be very clear but relaxed about them, and make sure that our Prime Minister has our support when he goes to make that case. I fully expect a respectful dialogue in Washington, and I look forward to hearing the outcome of those conversations.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, we have heard about soft power but we should also hear about hybrid warfare. We are already under attack from hybrid warfare and, the further east you go, the more intense that warfare is. Can the Minister assure your Lordships’ House that the Government are taking this seriously and are working properly with our European partners to counter the softening-up process that goes before the next stage, which is happening in the countries that have already been mentioned?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My noble friend made the point that this Statement might well have been taken in conjunction with the Statement that the Prime Minister made earlier today in the other place. The changes to defence spending will not be just more of the same; there will be a particular focus on the things that he discussed. The strategic defence review is about to complete as well. The noble Lord’s point is well made and is something that the Government are carefully considering.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
My Lords, I first raise the issue that was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad. In our discussions with our European allies, I hope that we press them to press the United States to make sure that the children who have been stolen by Russia, and remain behind Russian lines in this conflict, are part of any future agreement to bring the conflict to an end.
I was very proud of the Prime Minister and the UK last week, when he took a firm stand in support of Ukraine in the face of the global turmoil in politics, not just in diplomacy. I was proud again today when he announced an increase in defence spending, but I will not feel proud when I next meet somebody who lost their medicines or whose school closed because of the decisions that the Cabinet made this morning. I am particularly concerned that we did not first go after the Russian assets in London that could have helped finance some of that gap. What actions are the Government taking to go after Russian assets that we have already either seized or sanctioned? What specific action are we taking to release the money from the sale of Chelsea Football Club that could fund humanitarian programmes in Ukraine and beyond?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We are working very hard on the Chelsea Football Club issue. It is quite difficult legally, but my noble friend is right to remind us about it and we are working on it at pace. I hear what he says about development spending and I would expect him to say nothing else. This is not a decision that anyone has taken lightly or glibly; it is a decision that had to be taken, because we needed to act quickly in this situation. We must go after Russian assets as well, but we needed to take this decision today to make sure that we have the investment in defence to provide the stability and security that we all need.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
I thank the noble Lord. First, I wish to add the Green Party voice to the widespread expressions of solidarity with Ukraine as a nation and the Ukrainian people. We are having this discussion in the shadow of the US lining up with Russia, Iran and North Korea. As the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said, it is a wake-up call for us all; I agree with him. Does the Minister agree with me that we need to work with a wide range of other states—European states, obviously, but states around the world that are constructive, co-operative and reliable—and that that demands diplomacy, official development assistance, other soft power arrangements and tackling human security issues such as the climate chaos, food insecurity and cyber issues? By taking money from the aid budget and putting it into defence, are the Government not simply robbing Peter to pay Paul? A more secure and more stable world is better for the Ukrainians and obviously better for us. We do, after all, have an integrated review of security, defence, development and foreign policy. Do we not have to look at the world that way?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
The noble Baroness is not wrong. Obviously, it would be great to be able to do all the things that she describes everywhere that we would like to do them, but we have to be honest and realistic. At this moment, we had to make a decision to invest more in defence for the reasons that we all understand. It is a trade-off. This is not a decision with no consequence or that we are entirely pleased to be making, but one that I am proud that we have made. It is a clear choice. It will keep the world and our citizens safer. That is the right thing for this Government to have done.
Lord Craig of Radley (CB)
My Lords, the sum of £3 billion per annum has been mentioned as our contribution to Ukraine, and that indeed is very commendable. I wonder whether it could be increased or whether it is limited in two ways: by the ability to produce new equipment and by the amount by which we have to withdraw from our own front line and munition stocks of our capability in order to support Ukraine.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
Part of the defence review will examine exactly that question. What has become clear as this conflict has progressed is that part of the battle is about defence production and capability, so our decisions on spending today will enable us to support Ukraine more securely into the future.
Earl Attlee (Con)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us on these Benches are deeply appreciative of the action taken by the Prime Minister? He has had to make unbelievably difficult decisions, but the problem is that he will have to make even more difficult decisions in the future.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
That is undoubtedly true, but I believe that he is the right person to be in that particular role at this particular time, because making difficult decisions is his job and what he is good at. I think he made a good decision today, and I have every confidence that he will continue in that way.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
My noble friend mentioned the strategic defence review. Clearly, that is important in this context, but it strikes me that we are in a totally new situation that I, for one, did not anticipate within the last year. If necessary, perhaps the review needs to be delayed to take account of this totally new situation and a new form of warfare that we are going to have to pursue.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I hear what my noble friend is saying, and things are undoubtedly moving quickly, but I do not think that starting the defence review again would be the right way to move forward with this. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, will be very well aware of what has happened and the consequences, and I have every confidence that that will be reflected very well in his report when we get it.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, can I ask about expertise within the Government on Europe and the Russian sphere, so to speak? I well remember that there used to be a very good Soviet cadre, and an extremely good European cadre, within the Foreign Office. Both were run down under the past Government, but it is very clear that what we are now dealing with has implications not just for Ukraine but for Georgia, Moldova, Belarus and Kazakhstan. We need to know and speak to people in those countries about the implications of what we are doing for the broader region, and we clearly need to have a great deal more expertise and links with large and small European countries. I remember going to Slovakia some years ago and discovering that there were only two UK-based people in our Bratislava embassy. I suggest that one of the things we now need to look at is beefing up our contacts at all levels with that sort of Government.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
That is a very interesting point. Clearly, it is right that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office constantly reviews where it places resources to reflect changing circumstances. That work does take place. I will take back the noble Lord’s comments about expertise and where that needs to be more keenly focused. He makes a good point that the Foreign Secretary and the Permanent Secretary at the Foreign Office will want to consider.