Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [Lords]
Wednesday 13th November 2024
(3 days, 16 hours ago)
Public Bill CommitteesCommonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [HL] 2024-26 View all Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [HL] 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Public Bill Committee Amendments as at 13 November 2024 - (13 Nov 2024)
The Chair
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. Members should send their speaking notes by email to hansardnotes@parliament.uk. Please switch electronic devices to silent. Tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings.
Ordered,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Wednesday 13 November) meet at 2.00 pm on Wednesday 13 November;
(2) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Wednesday 13 November.—(Stephen Doughty.)
Resolved,
That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(Stephen Doughty.)
The Chair
Copies of written evidence received by the Committee will be made available in the Committee Room and circulated to Members by email.
We will now begin line-by-line consideration. The selection and grouping list for today’s sitting is available in the room and shows how the clauses and selected amendments have been grouped for debate. Grouped amendments and clauses are generally on a similar issue. Please note that decisions on amendments do not take place in the order they are debated, but in the order they appear on the amendment paper.
The selection and grouping list shows the order of debates. Decisions on each amendment and on whether each clause should stand part are taken when we come to the relevant clause. The Minister is called first. Other Members are then free to catch my eye to speak on all or any of the amendments, clauses or the schedule in that group. A Member may speak more than once in a single debate. At the end of a debate on a group, I shall call the Minister again.
Clause 1
The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 3 stand part and the schedule.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Stephen Doughty)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairpersonship, Mr Vickers. I welcome Members to the Committee and thank the Bill team and the Clerks for their work in preparing for these sittings. This Parliament is still relatively new, and I am sure that Members who have not been in one of these Committees before will find it as delightful as I did, when I first came to this place, to go line by line through Bills. This Bill is a slightly unusual example because it enjoys wide support across the House and has been debated a number of times in different forms.
At the outset, I thank the shadow Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Witham, and welcome her to her new role. She and I have sparred and have also worked together on many occasions. It is a genuine pleasure to have her here, and I thank her for the Opposition’s support for the Bill. I think we can get through this relatively quickly.
This is an important Bill for the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross, and for their standing in this country. I hope that we can get through the technical scrutiny and put this on the statute book as soon as possible. Of course, we are coming off the back of a very successful Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting attended by the Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary, Lord Collins and others, alongside Ministers and leaders from across the Commonwealth, so it is right that we debate this Bill today. I welcome our guest, Mr Twigg—a former Member of this House—to the Gallery, and thank him for all his work with the CPA over many years.
Many of us have benefited from associating with and engaging with CPA delegations on important work. I attended a useful conference in Ghana a couple of years ago with parliamentarians from across Africa. I cannot tell the Committee how important it was for me to be able to engage with colleagues on a wide range of issues, including women’s rights, security, healthcare and climate change. The inter-parliamentary and inter-Commonwealth understanding brought by the CPA is crucial to all our work in this place and to the work of the Government.
The United Kingdom greatly values its long-standing programme partnership with the CPA and appreciates the important work that it is doing to strengthen inclusive and accountable democracy across the Commonwealth. Treatment as an international organisation will allow the CPA to continue to operate fully across the Commonwealth and international fora, and allow the organisation to participate fully in areas where it is currently restricted, including signing up to international statements and communiqués.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I echo the Minister’s words about the Committee, the long-standing support for this Bill and the work that took place, including before I arrived in post. As was set out on Second Reading, not only do the Opposition support the Bill, but it is important to recognise the work of the CPA and the ICRC. I have had the great privilege of working with the ICRC in, I am afraid, harrowing times of conflict, instability and great humanitarian crisis around the world, and we should all support the bravery that their workers show, as well as their dedication to being a force for good.
The CPA’s work is central to realising the Commonwealth charter’s commitment to
“the development of free and democratic societies”,
as well as capacity building. It is vital that we continue to nurture and support that, because democratic legislatures around the world are pivotal to the security that we all want to see. The ICRC has a unique legitimacy to engage parties to conflict and access vulnerable people in conflict zones, and that is why is the Bill is so important. No one and no country should ever take that for granted, particularly given some of the hostilities and fragility across the world.
In the light of our long-standing commitment to the Bill, my remarks will be brief. It is clear that the legal changes in the Bill are absolutely necessary for the proper functioning of the CPA and the ICRC. Specifically on the CPA, we support clause 1 and the concept of effectively treating the CPA as an international organisation—it feels almost perverse that it has taken this long to get to that stage. We want the CPA to be able to fully participate across a range of areas in which it currently faces restrictions. The Bill provides a clean legal solution with regard to its key international functions, so it is right to make these changes. The Bill’s proposal that its legal capacities become almost corporate functions is highly sensible. Again, on the privileges and immunities that the Minister has outlined in the schedule, and the conditions of application, the approach is proportionate in relation to the function of the CPA and the ICRC.
We recognise the necessity of clause 3. Among other things, it will assist the courts, and the Minister and I are pretty familiar with some of the issues relating to the status of a person who might have been granted privileges and immunities. It would be useful if the Minister set out the steps he will take once the Bill passes, so that we lean in and advance what is being done to support the work of the CPA. I refer to the support for both the UK delegation and the CPA’s wider work.
The Minister mentioned CHOGM. There was a communiqué about democratic institution building, as well as election observation and support, that stated:
“Heads requested the Commonwealth Secretariat to develop a plan for the whole-of-election-cycle approach and to ensure that there is sustainable financing for this work.”
What role does the Minister think the CPA will have in that, and what kind of contribution does he see it making?
Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. It is unusual for the shadow Whip to say anything during Committee, but I want to make a declaration of interest: I am one of the vice-chairs of CPA UK and a director and trustee of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association UK branch. This is a non-pecuniary interest.
Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I thank the Minister for his kind reassurances to those of us serving on a Bill Committee for the first time.
The Liberal Democrats are pleased to support the passage of this Bill, which recognises the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross as international organisations. We believe that strengthening such international bodies will, in turn, strengthen international co-operation, which is sorely needed now more than ever in such an increasingly fragile geopolitical environment. It is also testament to the commitment that I am sure we all share across the House to the practice of international humanitarian law and good government.
The ICRC plays a crucial role in protecting civilian lives in the middle of conflict and war zones. The Bill will strengthen its ability to do that essential work without fear, using its unique mandate in maintaining neutrality. The privileges and immunities in the Bill will assure parties to conflict of the confidentiality of the ICRC’s information and its independence.
The Chair
Order. I draw the hon. Member’s attention to the fact that we are not on the part of the Bill dealing with the ICRC.
Monica Harding
The Bill provides for international organisation status to be conferred on the CPA. It has promoted and strengthened parliamentary democracy since its establishment in 1911, and it facilitates mutual dialogue and learning. The diversity of experience across the 53 Commonwealth countries provides numerous opportunities for us to learn from one another in our shared aspiration of good parliamentary governance. Good governance is ever-moving and our aim should be that it is ever-improving. We support enhancing the status of the CPA by granting it the required protections and immunities, with new status as an international inter-parliamentary organisation.
The Liberal Democrats are pleased to welcome the Bill, which we hope will simplify the challenges that the CPA faces in its work across the world, and keep both institutions secure in the UK. We are proud of their work, and the Bill is testament to our shared commitment to them.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I wish to declare a personal interest: I am a director and trustee of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association UK branch. It is a non-pecuniary interest.
Adam Jogee (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
I, too, would like to declare an interest as a member of the UK branch of the CPA. I also echo the welcome to the shadow Foreign Secretary; she had the wisdom to attend Keele University in Newcastle-under-Lyme, so her and I are best friends on that basis. I also place on record my thanks to Stephen Twigg and all those who work at the CPA; they do wonderful work, and I am pleased to be here to support the Bill.
Stephen Doughty
I thank the shadow Foreign Secretary for her warm support for the Bill. I very much appreciate her agreement with the proposals in the clause. She asked what we can do to lean in and support the work at the CPA and, I assume, in the Commonwealth more generally. In fact, I have already been to an event hosted by Mr Speaker that encouraged Members to be heavily involved in the CPA, the Inter-Parliamentary Union and a number of other inter-parliamentary bodies. From my experience in this place, I know that they are incredibly important organisations that do brilliant work, and we as a Government certainly support Members of both Houses and, indeed, of the devolved Administrations taking part fully in that work. One of the first CPA conferences that I took part in was in the Senedd—the Welsh Parliament—in my constituency, which brought together representatives from not only across these islands, but across Europe and the Mediterranean. That was one of my first such experiences, and it took place in a devolved legislature in the UK.
This is really important work, and I know just how important all the legislatures across the Commonwealth are. Representatives of the provinces in Canada, the states in Australia and elsewhere often take part in these bodies, so the Government are fully supportive of this. As for our wider support to the Commonwealth, as one of the largest funders to the secretariat and its programmes—I think the figure is £13 million—we continue to support the organisation and its aims overall.
The shadow Foreign Secretary referenced the important work on governance, rights and other matters. Fundamentally, that comes back to the Commonwealth charter, which we are all signed up to. It is an important reference point for us to return to when we engage in some of the more challenging issues. Of course, we welcome the new secretary-general of the Commonwealth to her place and look forward to working with her.
I thank the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Esher and Walton, for her support and for emphasising the important role that the CPA, and the Commonwealth as a whole, play in supporting good governance and strong democracies and societies across the world.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2
The International Committee of the Red Cross
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Stephen Doughty
There were some references made to the ICRC in the previous debate, and we are now discussing that important part of the legislation.
As the shadow Foreign Secretary pointed out, the International Committee of the Red Cross is an essential partner for achieving the UK’s global humanitarian objectives, and it plays a unique and important role, particularly in conflicts in some of the most harrowing circumstances. I, too, have engaged in work with the agency on many occasions in my career, both in this place and in the humanitarian sector prior to that.
The ICRC has unique legitimacy to engage all parties to conflicts. It has unparalleled access to vulnerable groups in conflict situations, and it is frequently the only international agency operating at scale in many conflicts. It is therefore critical to enable it to operate in the UK, in accordance with its unique international mandate, which means maintaining its strict adherence to the principles of neutrality, impartiality, independence, and, importantly for the provisions in the Bill, its working method of confidentiality.
The clause confers on the ICRC the legal capacities of a body corporate.. Key capacities relevant to the operation of an international organisation in the UK are to conclude contracts, to acquire and dispose of property, and to institute and be party to legal proceedings. The clause also enables the provision of specific privileges and immunities in respect to the ICRC, which will need to be determined on the basis of the functional need of the organisation and will be specified through arrangements to be agreed on after the passage of the Bill.
Priti Patel
I am very grateful to the Minister for the way in which he outlined the detail of clause 2. First, we recognise the benefits of conferring the legal capabilities of a body corporate on the ICRC, which includes contracts and the acquiring and disposing of property and legal proceedings. That is vital. Regarding legal disclosure requirements, it is right that sensitive information that the ICRC shares with the Government is protected. The Minister has succinctly outlined the reasons for that, and I completely endorse and support them.
We do not want the ICRC to be restricted in the level of information that it shares. We are contributors to the international aid budget and great supporters of the ICRC. Whether it is assessments or understanding the resources that are needed, all of this helps with the analytics, which helps the UK Government to step up in times of crisis and provide the resources that are needed. We should not do anything that would weaken our ability to work in a constructive way, particularly at times of crisis.
It would be very helpful if the Minister shared his thoughts on the use of these provisions in driving forward our relationship with the ICRC., because it is about results. The Minister will know from my previous incarnations my focus on delivery of results, which is even more important in times of humanitarian crisis. It would be helpful if he said where he has made assessments of areas in which we could do more together to drive outcomes. It might not be appropriate now to give the illustrations but, in due course, we should work together on this, because it should go beyond money.
The Minister made an important point about ensuring that the legal capabilities and proceedings work in the right way for the ICRC, but do not cross over into criminal proceedings. The Minister will recognise my point on this. I am afraid that there have been appalling situations within the development sector, where we have seen, fortunately, whistleblowers disclose harrowing information—sexual abuse, violence, people abusing their positions—but not enough done within the development community to deal with it. I am heartened by the Minister’s assurances and, in due course, I believe that the British Government can step up in this area and become the leaders that we should be, to show that we have no truck with the wrong kinds of behaviours. Not only that, we can work with organisations such as the ICRC to use criminal proceedings in the right way to show that we will not tolerate wrongdoing.
My final comment is on a Treasury matter. We recently had the Budget, and the ICRC and other organisations, including the CPA, will be subject to replenishments at some stage. This is not a subject for detailed discussion now, but would the Minister indicate, in light of this Bill, the provisions and the support we are giving to the ICRC, where he sees the future funding pathway giving the ICRC the resources it needs to carry on being the strong, successful force for good in the world that we all want it to be.
Monica Harding
The Liberal Democrats support the immunities and privileges given to the ICRC under the Bill, which support its unique mandate of neutrality. Its work is needed more than ever on the frontline of conflict—there are more than 120 ongoing armed conflicts in the world—not least in its understanding and witness to the exercise of humanitarian law, which is sometimes applied permissively. I pay tribute to its work, and the Liberal Democrats support the clause.
Stephen Doughty
I thank the shadow Foreign Secretary and the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for their support for the clause and the important protections it provides for the ICRC. I agree with their comments about the important work that the ICRC does. The Government are absolutely committed to supporting its work. It is indispensable in many of the harrowing situations we are engaged in. The shadow Foreign Secretary and I have engaged with the ICRC on a number of occasions and seen its work at first hand.
The shadow Foreign Secretary is right about the importance of continuing to support the ICRC’s work financially. I will not go into details of individual settlements in this debate for obvious reasons, but I am very happy to ask my right hon. Friend the Minister for Development to write to her to set out the details of our financial relationship with the ICRC going forward. It is an important organisation to support, because we all care about humanitarianism and treating prisoners of war, hostages and others properly. It does important, unique work that has been established for a very long time in relation to the Geneva conventions.
The shadow Foreign Secretary rightly raised the issue of balance between good governance and not allowing wrongdoing in the humanitarian sector to remain covered up. That is exactly why we have struck a balance in the Bill between necessary confidentiality for the ICRC, and that not applying to those criminal proceedings. Obviously, we would continue to work with the ICRC, as we would with any other international humanitarian organisation, to ensure that it upholds the highest standards of internal governance and procedures. We are very supportive of whistleblowing and other schemes that allow those who suspect any wrongdoing, whether in these organisations or any other, to raise a concern and have it dealt with appropriately, not only concerning our own relations with that organisation, but also within the international system as a whole.
I thought it might be worth briefly setting out why it is important that we get these confidentiality provisions right because, to date, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office has been successful in applying to UK courts for public interest immunity—for example, to prevent disclosure of ICRC communications or to consider ICRC evidence in closed material procedures. However, the reality, and the right hon. Member for Witham understand this, is that those decisions are at the discretion of the court in each individual case and so cannot fully address the ICRC’s concerns. The release of material into closed material procedures still breaches the ICRC’s standard working methods of confidentiality, so even though we would expect confidentiality in those proceedings, that is not guaranteed. That is why it is important to put this important provision on the statute book and to give the ICRC and the CPA that assurance.
The Bill and, indeed, its predecessors have been developed in close co-operation with the ICRC and the CPA, so it very much reflects their needs and, crucially, the need for them to continue to work with us in the most productive and outcome-based way. The Bill and clause therefore strike the right balance between the confidentiality they need to work with us, but without a blanket exemption that allows anything to go because, clearly, when it comes to criminal or other matters, those need to be dealt with in the appropriate way.
Sam Rushworth (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
After receiving advice from my Whip, I should declare an interest: I am a former employee of the Red Cross and, while there is no financial connection between us today, I retain a strong bond of affection for the movement.
The Chair
Duly noted.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 4
Orders in Council
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Clause 5 stand part.
Government amendment 1.
Clause 6 stand part.
Stephen Doughty
We now come to some of the more technical aspects of the legislation, which I hope will not detain us too long. It is reassuring to hear a number of Members talking about their connections to the CPA and the Red Cross movement. That is fantastic, and we have a wealth of expertise, particularly from the development and humanitarian sectors, in this new Parliament, which will be to the benefit of debates on many matters.
It is a long-standing practice that privileges and immunities are conferred by Order in Council. Clause 4 provides that any Order in Council made under clauses 1 and 2 is subject to the draft affirmative parliamentary procedure, as I set out on Second Reading in October. For the benefit of new Members in particular, statutory instruments that are subject to the draft affirmative procedure require the approval of both Houses of Parliament before they may have effect. The clause also provides further detail as to the scope and extent of the delegated legislation-making power under clauses 1 and 2. In particular, an Order in Council may make different provision for different cases and persons and may contain consequential, supplementary, incidental, transitional or saving provisions.
In addition, the clause provides the enabling power for two important aspects that are fundamental to the operation and management of privileges and immunities in respect of an international organisation. First, the Order in Council may specify circumstances where privileges or immunities do not apply, whether because of an exception to those privileges or immunities or because they have been waived by the organisation. Secondly, the Order in Council may specify that fiscal reliefs and exemptions are subject to arrangements or conditions imposed by the Secretary of State or the commissioners of His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. That will facilitate the application to the organisations of existing administrative schemes and processes in respect of international organisations that are administered by, among others, the FCDO and HMRC.
Clause 5 explains that the term “the ICRC” means the International Committee of the Red Cross, as given under clause 2(1)(a). It also ensures that the definition of “statutory provision” allows for the treatment of the CPA and the ICRC as international organisations to be applied in regard to all relevant legislation, primary and secondary, including devolved legislation in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, whenever made. That is important because the Bill gives both the CPA and the ICRC treatment comparable to an international organisation, and therefore the organisations need to be recognised in the same way across all relevant legislation.
Furthermore, that definition of statutory provision applies to the ICRC confidentiality provision in clause 2. It provides for protected ICRC information to be exempt from any disclosure requirement imposed by a statutory provision.
Priti Patel
I thank the Minister for articulating the whole premise of an Order in Council, which is a long-standing procedure. There is not much for me to add on clause 4, because that is procedural. We know the merits of the Order in Council and the technicalities through which it will support various provisions. Clause 5 is technical and we do not object to it. I also support clause 6 and the removal of the insertion from the other place, which no one really understands.
Before I conclude, I thank everyone who has been involved in the development of the Bill, including former and current members of the CPA. Many long-standing figures have played an important role in shaping the CPA, its work around the world and the Bill. Importantly, the House should recognise the natural nurturing and important strengthening of institutions across the Commonwealth. We all have an interest in that, and it is crucial to continue that.
Finally, I thank the 18,000 staff of the ICRC around the world. I have worked with them and served alongside them in many capacities in the past, and this Bill will absolutely do what is required to give them not just the resources, but the footing that they need to deliver, as set out in the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 4 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 6
Extent, commencement and short title
Amendment made: 1, in clause 6, page 3, line 34, leave out subsection (4). —(Stephen Doughty.)
This amendment removes the privilege amendment inserted by the Lords.
Clause 6, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule agreed to.
Bambos Charalambous (Southgate and Wood Green) (Lab)
I want to make a declaration of interest before we conclude. I was a member of the CPA executive. I believe my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton and Winchmore Hill also wants to say something. I apologise for my lateness today.
Kate Osamor (Edmonton and Winchmore Hill) (Lab/Co-op)
I apologise for my lateness. I, too, wanted to put on the record that I am the chairman of the UK branch of the CPA.
Stephen Doughty
On a point of order, Mr Vickers. I want to reiterate my thanks to the Bill team, the officials of my Department and all Members who have taken part today, and to the CPA and the ICRC for their work. I have many experiences of working with both organisations. I am glad we have been able to proceed in swift time. I hope that the Bill can now proceed, with your agreement, Mr Vickers, to its next stage.
Bill, as amended, to be reported.