Grand Committee
Arrangement of Business
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I am not expecting one, but if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024
(6 days, 8 hours ago)
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Lord Hanson of Flint
That the Grand Committee do consider the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024.
Relevant document: 3rd Report from Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)
My Lords, this order was laid before Parliament on 2 September. I thank the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, which I shall, for the purposes of brevity, call the ACMD from here on in, for its detailed and thorough advice, which has informed this draft order.
The purpose of this draft order is to amend Schedule 2 to the Misuse of Drugs Act, known as the MDA. The draft order will control six substances, as well as introduce a generic definition for nitazenes, as class A drugs and control 16 substances as class C drugs. The draft order will also make an amendment to an existing class B drug to give further clarity by adding an additional common name and its International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry name to its entry.
I turn to 2-methyl-AP-237 and closely related substances. New synthetic opioids remain a current international and domestic public health threat. The ACMD has reported that, as with traditional opioids such as heroin, these can lead to dose-dependent adverse effects, including overdose risks, as well as the high potential for addiction and dependence. One of the 22 substances that I mentioned, 2-methyl-AP-237, was added to Schedule 1 to the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs 1961 following the 66th session of the United Nations Commission on Narcotic Drugs. The UK is a signatory to that—I hope that Members have followed me so far—and we have an obligation to consider its introduction under domestic legislation.
On 27 March, the ACMD issued a report which considered the harms of 2-methyl-AP-237 but also provided advice to Ministers on closely related acyl piperazine opioids. The ACMD also noted the likelihood of further increases in their prevalence, as well as the potential health and social harms associated with specific acyl piperazine opioids. Following the recommendation from the ACMD, this draft order seeks to control four named acyl piperazine opioids and two chemically bridged acyl piperazine derivatives, which include 2-methyl-AP-237, as class A drugs under the MDA.
Under the MDA, there are several named nitazenes—another form of synthetic opioid—that are already listed as class A drugs. However, more needs to be done to reduce the opportunity for criminals to circumvent existing controls by making minor alterations to the chemical structure of these named drugs under control. As such, with this order we are trying to introduce a generic definition for nitazenes that has been recommended by the ACMD. The purpose of this is to future-proof the legislation by covering known and predicted variants likely to present a significant risk to health. The ACMD has already published four updates to address new structurally related compounds under the definition. As such, the draft order is designed to introduce a generic definition for nitazenes as a class A drug under the MDA.
I add for the Grand Committee’s consideration that many known benzodiazepines are used for medicinal purposes in the UK for the treatment of anxiety, insomnia and epilepsy, but more recently there has been an increase in the non-medical use of novel benzodiazepines and related compounds, which have been associated with significant health harms, including an increase in annual numbers of deaths where a benzodiazepine has been implicated.
The ACMD reported on benzodiazepines in 2020 but has since provided further advice on substances that are not controlled under the MDA. In the report dated March 2024—it obviously went to the previous Government—the ACMD recommended 15 benzo- diazepines for control, none of which is licensed as a medicine in the UK. As such, this draft order seeks to control those 15 benzodiazepines and related compounds as class C drugs under the MDA, in line with the ACMD’s advice.
We have seen an increase in the illicit use of xylazine, a non-opioid tranquiliser that has been approved for use in veterinary practice. Xylazine is being used to adulterate illicitly manufactured opioids, such as fentanyl, to produce a mixture known as “tranq” in the USA. In combination with other sedatives, it can dangerously lower a person’s level of consciousness. Again, these are recommendations to me, the ministry and the Home Office, and therefore, via the Home Office, to this House. The ACMD has recommended that the draft order should control xylazine as a class C drug under the MDA.
The order also looks at the entry for methoxphenidine, to add an additional common-use name and its full international standardised name, which will be covered by the order. This does not affect the existing control status of the substance as a class B drug. Instead, it will add clarity on exactly which drug is controlled, given that there are multiple common names.
I turn to the effect of this order. If it is made today, it will make the substances that I have indicated subject to controls under the MDA and associated offences. This will provide enforcement agencies, such as the police, with the appropriate powers to further restrict the supply and general use of the substances that I have mentioned. Unless exempt, these substances are likely also to be subject to the provisions of the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016, on which I fondly remember sitting in Committee in another place for many moons. Once controlled, they will be subject only to the provisions of the MDA and will no longer be covered by the Psychoactive Substances Act.
The MDA contains much higher penalties for the supply of these drugs and provides for a simple possession offence. Those who supply or produce class A drugs could face up to life imprisonment or an unlimited fine, or indeed both. For a class C drug, the penalty could be up to 14 years’ imprisonment or an unlimited fine, or both. Those found in unlawful possession face up to seven years in prison for a class A drug and up to two years in prison for a class C drug, or an unlimited fine, or indeed both.
Therefore, if this order is made, another statutory instrument will have to be introduced later, via the negative resolution procedure. This will seek to make amendments to the associated legislation, namely the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001 and, if necessary, the 2015 misuse of drugs designation order. This negative statutory instrument will seek to schedule and designate these substances to ensure that they are appropriately available for legitimate use, which is important for this House to know and consider.
Although all these substances, and the generic definition of nitazenes, have been identified as having no recognised medicinal use in the United Kingdom, xylazine remains a veterinary medicine. As such, this will be the only substance placed under Part 1 of Schedule 4 to the MDR, to enable its continued legitimate use. All others will be listed as Schedule 1 drugs and will require a Home Office-approved licence for research and other special purposes. It is the Government’s intention that these amendments will come into force on the same date as this affirmative order in due course early next year.
I hope that I have not surrounded noble Lords with too much information or too many acronyms, but it is important to note that this draft order encompasses a number of recommendations, all of which have been made by the ACMD following detailed and independent assessment of the harms associated with these substances. Noble Lords will know that drugs can ruin lives and continue to affect society as a whole. This Government are committed to protecting the public against such dangerous substances and ensuring that appropriate controls are in place. I hope that the Grand Committee will agree with the Home Office’s recommendations and this draft order. I beg to move.
Baroness Doocey (LD)
My Lords, we accept the recommendation of the advisory council and support the tightening of these regulations. I shall add a couple of comments. In relation to synthetic opioids, given the continual emergence of new individual nitazenes, we are in favour of introducing a generic control for these substances. They can be much more potent than heroin, leaving users at a particularly high risk of accidental overdose. Nitazenes have already cost lives in the UK, and although there is little local evidence of the impact of the other six synthetic opioids named in the order, the potential harm they could wreak is abundantly clear, given the high risk posed for addiction and fatality, as outlined by the Minister.
The need to keep up with organised crime’s ability to synthetise new varieties of opioid is crucial at a time when the UK and European markets are especially vulnerable to their influx, given the noted drop in the supply of heroin and fentanyl. The market is shifting as people seek alternatives, so it is highly likely that the substances named will become much more prevalent. The advisory council’s report calls the individual controlling of these six named synthetic opioids “a short-term approach”. Will the Government consult on the introduction of a generic definition for these substances similar to that for nitazenes?
I also have real concern about the UK’s ability to detect these new substances in a timely fashion. I note that screening and chemical testing for them is extremely limited, that many laboratories do not have the resources routinely to check for them and that they are often not incorporated into police drug tests. Given the damage that we have seen synthetic opioid addiction wreak on parts of the USA, it is of the utmost importance that we have all the warnings we can get of what is emerging on the UK market and where.
The importance of this is underlined by another of the substances we are dealing with today, xylazine. The first UK death in which it was implicated came to light only thanks to the vigilance of a toxicologist who detected it at postmortem because they decided to investigate what they thought were strange results. Internationally, heroin and synthetic opioids such as fentanyl are increasingly being cut with xylazine, and we know it is increasingly present in fatal overdoses in the US where in some states it is present in more than one-quarter of all drug deaths, yet because xylazine is not included in standard UK drug testing we do not know how widespread its use is here. It is a not a nice drug. It leaves people like zombies and its continued use rots their skin from the inside. Back in 2022, there was also apparently no way of recording it in the UK drug deaths database. Is this still the case? Will the Minister address my wider concerns around testing?
The Liberal Democrats do not believe that criminalising individuals for drug possession is the answer, and we will continue to call for a better public health response to tackling the drugs crisis. Will the Government make any additional funding available to enable the consistent national implementation of pre-arrest and pre-prosecution police drug diversion schemes?
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, the Conservative Party welcomes this order. It controls six substances, introduces a generic definition for nitazenes as class A drugs and controls 16 substances as class C drugs. These Benches believe deeply in the principles of law and order, personal responsibility and the protection of our communities. This amendment embodies those very principles by addressing the evolving nature of the drugs trade and reinforcing our nation’s commitment to keeping our streets safe.
In May, the previous Conservative Government accepted all five recommendations set out in the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs’ March 2024 report. I welcome the new Government’s continuation of our excellent work. These regulations will build on the previous Government’s work to mitigate the real threat of synthetic opioids across the UK by banning 15 new synthetic opioid drugs.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, and the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, for their contributions from both Opposition Front Benches.
I will deal initially with the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey. She made an important point about consultation and the further discussions around a potential generic definition for the six synthetic opioids and for nitazenes. She will know that the original order has arisen because of the ACMD’s recommendation of 24 March that consultation be undertaken with various stakeholders. Consultation was undertaken with academia, the chemicals industry and the pharmaceutical industry on the introduction of the generic control in order to cover the points before the Committee today.
Following the consultation, the ACMD recommended that generic control be added to class A of the MDA, consistent with the classification of other potent opioids. We will certainly consider the noble Baroness’s suggestion that it would be appropriate to consult key stakeholders in due course. I assure her that that will be kept under review and that we will rely particularly on the ACMD’s future advice on that generic definition; however, as with the 24 March order, consultation will take place.
The noble Baroness rightly recognised the great harm done, particularly in the United States, by some of the drugs mentioned in this order. She also rightly highlighted the need to monitor drug deaths accordingly. Detections of xylazine in drug-related deaths are now recorded on the drugs death database, which is available through the Office for National Statistics. I accept that that is not necessarily the most user-friendly way of getting those figures, but they are available, open to scrutiny and open to comment from the noble Baroness. The HMG Synthetic Opioids Taskforce is currently overseeing and co-ordinating the Government’s strategic response to the threat of synthetic opioids—and threat there is. The task force will look at the prevalence and harms of xylazine and its co-use with synthetic opioids; I hope that that gives the noble Baroness some reassurance on that point.
The noble Baroness raised the important issue of the public health response. This is a drug response. As the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, mentioned, there is a criminal justice aspect to that response in today’s order, but it is important that we focus on the public health response as well. The noble Baroness will know that we are currently in the process of carrying out a financial review for 2025-26 and that the Chancellor is in a pre-Budget period, so it is difficult to discuss these matters generally, but I give her this commitment: it is the Government’s firm belief that we need to ensure that we divert people from illegal drugs through interventions, such as drug treatment services, to help reduce drug misuse, drug-related crimes and reoffending.
Before I came to this House or to the other place, I worked as director of a charity dealing with drug and solvent abuse. Interventions are key to prevention, in both family and individual support, by ensuring that they reduce access to drugs and reduce offending accordingly.
We support the use of drug testing on arrest and out-of-court resolutions to ensure that individuals who commit drug-related offences are given the opportunity to change their behaviour. Again, I hope that while this is a drug identification and criminal justice response, there is a wider agenda underneath to examine the points that have been made. I also put it to the noble Baroness that any substance capable of producing a psychoactive effect is likely to be captured by the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016, which will mean that the supply remains unlawful.
I am grateful also for the general support of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. He may well, dare I say it, have seen some of the information that relates to this when in a previous Government he held, with some great support, the post that I hold now. He will know that we will examine a range of mechanisms. The points that he raised today are extremely valid and supported, and we will certainly look at them as we take this matter forward. He particularly raised the generic definition of nitazenes. The ACMD has published four addendums to the generic definition and we, and the ACMD, will continue to monitor the position accordingly. If new compounds emerge, self-evidently we, as a Government with the advice of experts, would want to ensure that those were legislated on to protect the public and support individuals, in the same way that the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, mentioned earlier.
The noble Lord introduced—rather cheekily, if I may say so—the question of whether, if these penalties are approved, as they potentially will be in due course, there will be a potential impact on prison places. I should clarify that that approval will be by the Privy Council. He will know that my right honourable friend Shabana Mahmood, the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, is currently examining mechanisms to ensure that those serving short prison sentences find alternatives to custody in a positive way, while still paying a penalty to society and still being potentially under either house arrest or some other treatment order. That will depend on the reason why they committed offences in the first place.
I reassure the noble Lord that prison will be there for people who deserve it, but that there will be alternative sentences where deemed appropriate by the judiciary. We are trying, with the Ministry of Justice, to expand the potential examination of those issues. The noble Lord will also know that a sentencing review has just been announced under a former Member of Parliament from his own Benches, David Gauke. That will ultimately feed into a justice policy that I hope is fit for the next 10 years, as opposed to the last 14.
I clarify for the Committee that the amendments will come into force on the same date as this affirmative order, early next year. They will go to the Privy Council for approval and, once approved, as I hope they will be by this House as well as the Privy Council, will become law to tackle what are difficult issues, but on which I sense that there is an element of coterminosity between the three speakers in this debate.
Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (Juxtaposed Controls) (Amendment) Order 2024
(6 days, 8 hours ago)
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Lord Hanson of Flint
That the Grand Committee do consider the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (Juxtaposed Controls) (Amendment) Order 2024.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)
It is me and my colleagues again, but perhaps the noble Lord, Lord German, is in a tag team and working to have an input on this order. This order amends the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (Juxtaposed Controls) Order 2003—or, as I will now call it for short, the 2003 order—to support the Government’s preferred model for the French delivery of the EU entry/exit system, or EES, in Dover.
As noble Lords will know, EES is the EU’s new border entry system, which is driven primarily by the desire for greater border security and a more secure Europe. The UK Government are supporting the aims of EES, which complement our shared objectives on migration and secure borders. We have been working at pace and closely with our French and EU partners, as well as with industry and across UK government, to ensure readiness for the changes that will potentially be made shortly. I am grateful to all parties for their constructive approach to this.
For the benefit of noble Lords who wish to have greater clarity, the EES requires that non-EU citizens—excluding EU residents, visa holders and those protected by the withdrawal agreement—who wish to enter the Schengen area provide fingerprints and facial scans at EU borders to EU border officials and answer questions about their stay. This will increase the time taken to complete the Schengen entry process.
As immigration controls in Dover are juxtaposed, non-EU citizens, which includes most British nationals, will provide these details to officers of the French Police aux Frontières—PAF for short. PAF officers conduct Schengen entry checks in the control area at the eastern docks in Dover, which, as noble Lords will know, is a confined space with large volumes of freight and passenger traffic going through Dover, particularly at peak times. If this continues in the current format once EES is implemented, there is likely to be severe congestion or disruption at the Port of Dover; the very nature of fingerprinting and facial recognition take longer than the current system.
Therefore, the Government have engaged constructively with the French and the EU to explore mitigations. France has agreed—with our thanks—that its PAF officers should complete EES checks for coaches in an additional coach control zone at the western docks. This approach will ensure that there is sufficient capacity to conduct EES checks on coaches that is not available at the eastern docks.
To do this—this is the key part of the SI before the Committee today—France has requested two changes to ensure that PAF officers can operate the controls effectively. These are that PAF officers must be able to travel between the control zones with their service weapons, and that PAF officers must be able to escort any detained persons they have arrested following immigration examination in the new control zone at the western docks to the control zone at the eastern docks, where they currently carry out their immigration controls in full.
As your Lordships would expect, government officials have consulted relevant stakeholders, including Kent Police and a number of other agencies, on this requirement of the French authorities. Senior officers are satisfied that the risks are minimal and can be managed through appropriate safeguards and standard operating procedures. The French have agreed to these and the Government have approved France’s requests.
This order, therefore, creates what we are calling a “circulation area”, which will be a section of the A20 public road, approximately 1.5 miles long, linking the French control zone at the western docks with the existing control zone in Dover. It will also enable PAF officers to travel between control zones via the circulation area and will extend certain powers and provisions in the 2003 order, which are applicable only in a control zone and now to the circulation area.
Therefore, PAF officers will be permitted to travel with their service weapons, in the circulation area only, between control zones. Officers will also be able to escort detained persons between control zones. They will not, however, be able to arrest or detain anyone in the circulation area who has not already been detained by them in the exercise of their functions within a control zone.
When PAF officers escort a detained person in the circulation area, certain provisions will apply, just as they do when officers exercise their powers in a control zone. Specifically, PAF officers will be protected against acts or omissions committed against them that constitute offences under an immigration control enactment—for example, assault or obstruction—in the same way that British immigration officers are protected against these. They also cannot be prosecuted for any offence committed when they are exercising their lawful powers under the 2003 order in the circulation area. Additionally, procedures concerning the arrest of a PAF officer for acts performed in a control zone will also apply to PAF officers exercising the power to escort detained persons in the circulation area.
Lord German (LD)
On first sight, this would appear to be straightforward legislation and would obviously merit support. But, on closer reading and on listening to the Minister, there are three areas of interest that I would like to question him about. One of them has come about as a result of his introduction, so we can clarify that in a moment.
My first set of questions surround the issue of juxtaposition in Calais. We as a country are going to introduce our own entry system. I hesitate to ask when it is likely to be brought in but, in a similar manner that the one for the Schengen area has been slightly delayed, I suspect that we may not be very far apart in what the two countries are doing. The first question is: is an equal juxtaposition going to occur in Calais and will that be only at the ferry terminal? The other question is: is there anywhere else in the United Kingdom where there is a juxtaposition? There are clear examples of working at both ends of a ferry terminal. I can tell noble Lords of my personal experience of Ouistreham. The French inspected all the vehicles, including my own, and then, when we got to Portsmouth, the British inspected the same vehicles for the same purpose. There was obviously wasted energy there because one inspection would have done on behalf of both within the secure zones. Is the ferry terminal the only place where there is juxtaposition? If there are others, will there be an equivalent need for this legislation? Perhaps in answering that query, the noble Lord may say when the British are going to have their own scheme and whether they are likely to happen fairly close together in time for their introduction? We will need a similar facility at Calais.
My second concern relates to the circulation area. Having read the legislation and the Explanatory Memorandum closely, it would appear to me that the circulation area is a link between the facilities at both ends, the western docks and the eastern docks. Anybody who has been to Dover will know that the connection between those docks is either a road, an esplanade with beautiful gardens and a walking facility and bicycle path alongside, or a beach.
I presume that the intention, although it is not mentioned in the information, is that the PAF officers will move between the two by vehicle. If that is not the case—the Minister indicated that there would be a map—I hesitate to think that we would have armed French officials walking along the beach together with tourists who would be using the same facility. I therefore presume it must be by vehicle, but if it is not, I cannot understand how that connection could take place without some other form of assistance. That question has to be answered, because if we are calling it a circulation area, something must be done about the road, the bike path, the esplanade or the beach to designate it. Perhaps the Minister might tell Sue, who has a seafood operation on that esplanade, which is well used.
My third set of questions relates to the separation between the eastern and western docks. As I understand it, the Minister said that all coach transport will first call at the western docks, where people will be asked to get off and go through the required inspection checks, then people will get back on the coach and it will proceed along the esplanade to the eastern docks. Part of the problem is that, as those of us who have used this route know, if you come via Canterbury, the entrance to the eastern docks is via a dual carriageway which comes down into them. That means that coaches using that route would have to travel along the seafront to the western docks, be processed, turn around and come back again. Even without the entry system, much traffic builds up along that route along the seafront in Dover to the eastern docks, so there must be traffic implications somewhere in this.
Nowhere in the documentation before us does it mention that this is for coaches only, so presumably this legislation can be used for any passenger in any vehicle travelling to France on the Dover/Calais route. Since the legislation does not exclude cars, minibuses or foot passengers, there is nothing to say that that cannot be achieved. It would make more sense to use it just for coach travel, even though that will have some implications for local roads. However, since it is not mentioned in the legislation, this legislation could be used for foot and car passengers, which would be a nightmare. Whatever route you are taking into Dover, having to travel back and forth across the area would create an incredible build-up of traffic and passengers on that stretch of road.
Once people have been through the initial Schengen checks, they will carry with them some form of statement, agreement or whatever, or they can simply turn up at the eastern docks and say, “I have already got the biometric Schengen agreement”. That means that some people will be allowed entry into the eastern docks on their own and some people, perhaps even two of them sharing a car, will have to zigzag back and forward if one has and one has not. The legislation is not clear about precisely what will happen when people have the Schengen documentation available and what happens if they are in a mixed vehicle when one might have it and one might not.
This all predisposes that the legislation does not talk just about coaches. If it is to be coaches, I suggest that it should be amended to be clear that this does not apply to every passenger going through Dover.
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, we welcome this order. I will be brief. I thank the Minister for his detailed explanation of the regulations, which was helpful. Perhaps I can help him by reassuring the noble Lord, Lord German, that, when I was in the Home Office, the rollout of the ETAs to which he referred was very much on track and was highly efficient—I am sure it still is.
My party does not have quite the same forensic interest in the geography of Dover as the noble Lord, Lord German, and it is content that the regulations will deliver what is expected of them. But I do have a couple of brief questions. According to the Explanatory Notes to the regulations, no impact assessment has been undertaken. Is there a particular reason for that, or a perfectly innocent explanation? As the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, is in the Room, I should say that I am asking this mostly because he used to ask me for impact assessments regularly when I was standing in his place.
I appreciate the detailed description of the powers of the PAF officers, but I did not hear the circumstances in which the use of firearms would be permitted. What are the restrictions, if any, on those officers? It may be that I just did not hear that.
Are arrangements in place to allow the employees of other foreign agencies to carry firearms when working in the United Kingdom? More generally, is this a reserved or a devolved matter?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful for noble Lords’ questions, which I will try to answer to help them understand the legislation and its impact—and hopefully to support it.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord German, that this is being undertaken and framed in this way because Dover carried 68,000 coaches in 2023, and 4,000 in the peak month of July. The noble Lord will know that the Schengen changes have been delayed to a date yet to be determined, and we do not yet know what their impact will be when they come in, but, undoubtedly, unless these measures are put in place, there will be longer delays for coach travel.
The noble Lord asked whether that is an issue for vehicles. He asked about cars. I hope I can reassure him by saying that the Port of Dover is looking at significant work, including reclaiming land in the port specifically for EES registration. Therefore, conversations are ongoing on the potential new area being used for car registrations as well as for coaches. The order does not preclude any particular type of vehicle, but the primary purpose at the moment, to ease any pressure in the event of the regulations being introduced by the EU, would be for the 68,000 coaches travelling through the Port of Dover each year.
The noble Lord mentioned the circulation area, which, as I indicated, is a 1.5 mile-long stretch of the A20 linking the French control zone at the western docks with the existing control zone in Dover. I reassure him—I hope this will help—that it will be for use just by vehicles by the French authorities and it is not envisaged or agreed that it will be undertaken by any means other than vehicles.
The noble Lord asked about juxtaposed controls generally. Dover/Calais is a classic example of where we need those controls in place. I hope I can reassure him by saying that we have juxtaposed controls in France, not just at Calais but at Dunkirk for ferry crossings, at Coquelles for the Eurotunnel, and at Paris Gare du Nord and Lille-Europe for the Eurostar. We also have them in Belgium at Brussels-Midi, and in the Netherlands at Amsterdam and Rotterdam, for train services. That is part of the general relationship that we have to have with the European Union in the post-Brexit era. We were never part of Schengen in the first place, so even under a pre-Brexit solution, that would still be a challenge that the Government would have needed to examine. I hope that reassures the noble Lord on those points.
Lord German (LD)
Does the Minister have a date for the introduction of the UK ETA scheme? The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, told us that it was going along admirably.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
The noble Lord, Lord German, asks an interesting and pertinent question. The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, indicated that, under his administration, it was moving along swimmingly. Let me tell the noble Lord, Lord German, that it still is. I will leave it at that.
I shall answer a couple of the points mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. First, he rightly asked—again, my noble friend Lord Coaker has asked this question many times—what the economic impact will be. I can tell the noble Lord—I hope that this also reassures my noble friend—that the estimated cost of this is minimal: around £3,052 over a 10-year appraisal period. It was therefore well short of any threshold that required a full impact assessment; in fact, any impact assessment would have cost more than its results. So that impact assessment has not happened, but I hope the noble Lord understands why that was the case.
The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, also asked why and how PAF officers would potentially need to use their service weapons in the UK if they were carrying out immigration checks only. I need not remind the Committee, I hope, that any individual at any time can be a danger to those checking border paperwork and looking at issues to do with the regulation of this area. We do not know at any particular time who is going to be there and what threat they may pose. It is a requirement for the French authorities that they carry weapons accordingly, but I assure the noble Lord that that will be regulated by French national legislation in accordance with their normal working practices. PAF officers are required to carry service weapons; they do so while carrying out their work at the juxtaposed controls in the UK, but they do so under the same strict regulation that we discussed earlier in the Chamber in relation to firearm control. I hope that that reassures the noble Lord.
With those comments, I again commend this order to the Committee.
Armed Forces Act 2006 (Continuation) Order 2024
(6 days, 8 hours ago)
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Lord Coaker
That the Grand Committee do consider the Armed Forces Act 2006 (Continuation) Order 2024.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)
My Lords, the purpose of this order is to continue in force for another year the legislation that governs the Armed Forces Act 2006. That body of legislation provides the legal framework for our brave service personnel to continue to operate throughout the world wherever they are needed. The act of yearly renewal reflects the constitutional requirement, which stretches back to the Bill of Rights 1689, that His Majesty’s Armed Forces may not be maintained without Parliament’s consent. Further, there is a five-yearly renewal by Act of Parliament, which is the primary purpose of the Armed Forces Acts. The latest Armed Forces Act was in 2021 and the next is required by the end of 2026.
However, between these Acts there must be an annual renewal by Order in Council. This is the purpose of today’s draft order, which is necessary for the Armed Forces Act 2006, as amended by the Armed Forces Act 2021, to remain in force until the end of 2025. If the Order in Council is not made before the close of 14 December 2024, the 2006 Act will automatically expire, effectively ending the powers and provisions to maintain the Armed Forces as disciplined bodies.
As a reminder to noble Lords—and as many noble and gallant Members of your Lordships’ House will already know—those serving in His Majesty’s Armed Forces do not have contracts of employment and, therefore, have no duties as employees. Instead, service- persons have an obligation as members of the Armed Forces to obey lawful orders as set out in the 2006 Act, which provides nearly all the provisions for the existence of a system for the Armed Forces of command, discipline and justice.
If the Act were not renewed, commanding officers and the court martial would no longer have the power to punish or discipline servicepersons for infractions of the rules, irrespective of how minor or serious the matter might be. Discipline is fundamental to the operational effectiveness and efficiency of any professional military force. It ensures team cohesiveness and effectiveness, efficiency in executing orders and confidence in the chain of command, while encouraging and reinforcing self-discipline. Such qualities have proved vital in underpinning the professionalism and capabilities of our Armed Forces.
I acknowledge that, as of today, we inhabit a world that is more dangerous than at any time since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, witnessing as it has the return of great power politics. However, that is not to say that we are less safe. After all, we have seen the growth and strengthening of the Euro-Atlantic alliance, with new and powerful NATO members welcomed into its ranks, while we continue to support, equip and train Ukraine in its fight against Russia, which has witnessed Putin fail in every one of his strategic aims in that country.
In the Middle East, we continue to work closely with allies and partners on aid deliveries to Gaza, supporting the Lebanese army, training the Iraqi security forces and ensuring freedom of navigation. In the Indo-Pacific, we have AUKUS and GCAP working alongside our allies to ensure stability in that region and provide a strong deterrence to would-be aggressors.
No Government can do this without the men and women of our Armed Forces and the civilian staff who support them. We also cannot do it without Armed Forces’ families, who sacrifice so much and move so often to support our national security. We should also remember our veterans. As a Government, we have committed to strengthen the nation’s contract with those who serve, their families and, as I said, veterans, including by putting the Armed Forces covenant fully into law and by appointing an Armed Forces commissioner to be a strong, independent champion for serving personnel and their families.
Therefore, we ask that His Majesty’s Armed Forces receive the full support of this Committee with approval of this draft continuation order. This will provide a sound legal basis for our Armed Forces to continue to afford us their indispensable protection. With that, I beg to move.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
My Lords—oh, I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith; I am so eager.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
Yes, there is obviously a certain choreography to this: the smaller opposition Front Bench is allowed to go first.
This time last year—or not quite this time last year, but when we renewed our commitment to the Armed Forces in 2023—we again had a rather small group of Peers speak in the debate. I note this tendency, despite the fact that, in 1688, the Bill of Rights found it so important that Parliament consented to having our Armed Forces that we had to give our consent. Now, we tend to have a very small number of parliamentarians discussing this vital matter and we are tucked away in Grand Committee. One noble Lord referred to this the other day, saying to me, “It’s a cupboard. Nobody takes any notice if we do things in Grand Committee”.
However, we clearly should take notice of the commitment to His Majesty’s Armed Forces that this renewal order gives and which all our Benches wish to support. Each year, we remind ourselves and others of the important role that His Majesty’s Armed Forces play in the security of the realm, which matters to each and every individual. The fact that so few individuals who are not service personnel, in their families or veterans, do not spend very long thinking or talking about His Majesty’s Armed Forces is perhaps a sign of how effective those forces are: we do not have to think daily about our security because the Armed Forces are doing that.
I note that the Explanatory Memorandum quotes the Bill of Rights, saying that
“raising or keeping a standing Army within the Kingdome in time of Peace unlesse it be with Consent of Parlyament is against law”.
Clearly, the United Kingdom is not in a state of war with any other countries but I wonder how we should interpret the idea of being at peace, because there are so many parts of the world where His Majesty’s forces are deployed. When I looked back at the debate we had last year, it turned out to have been 16 months ago. For some reason, the previous Government felt the need to have the 2023 renewal on 15 June 2023. That was in a slightly different context.
We were at that time already supporting Ukraine but the context of the Middle East now, referred to by the Minister in his opening remarks, was somewhat different. It was before the horrific attacks on Israel of 7 October 2023. Since then, the United Kingdom has been involved in the support of Israel, in particular the support of Israel’s Iron Dome. Questions have been raised about our own defence and security, so I will reiterate one of the questions that I raised last year when the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was responding at the Dispatch Box. I said that His Majesty’s Armed Forces serve the United Kingdom incredibly well, but asked: do we serve our Armed Forces sufficiently well?
I welcome from these Benches the comments the Minister just made about the commitment to enshrine the Armed Forces covenant in law—I hope it will be made applicable to His Majesty’s Government, rather than just to certain councils and other bodies—and to having an Armed Forces commissioner. But does the Minister feel that we are doing sufficient to support our Armed Forces community, and should we be doing more in this time of heightened security concerns? I realise that his default position will probably be to say that we have a strategic defence review in the offing. Nevertheless, some commitment to ensuring that we have adequate resources for our Armed Forces in terms of their equipment and accommodation, but also service numbers, would be very welcome.
Finally, given that this continuation order is very much about service justice and that just last week we received the first report of the service complaints commissioner, do the Government feel that this new role and service justice are working well? In conclusion, we obviously wish to support the continuation of the Armed Forces and this draft Order in Council.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for my alacrity in wanting to contribute to this debate and for rudely seeking to barge in front of her.
I remember with pleasure having to move this annual order as a Minister. On the one hand, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said, it is entirely process in character, and that perhaps caused some perplexity about what exactly we should be saying. On the other, the effect of the order could not be more important in keeping our Armed Forces legally constituted and, as has been said, compliant with the fundamental provisions of the Bill of Rights 1688.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for that invitation. I shall start with a general welcome for the points that the noble Baronesses made about the professionalism and dedication of our Armed Forces. The cross-party unanimity in support of that will have been heard. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was right to highlight some of the achievements over the past year. No doubt there will be achievements and special events over the next year. I am grateful to her for doing that and I know the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, will be too.
The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, mentioned HMS “Prince of Wales”. I was on that carrier yesterday and saw for myself the preparations for it to attain full operational capability. HMS “Dauntless” and other ships were around it. F35Bs demonstrated taking off to a cross-section of us who went to visit the ship. Yesterday morning, we flew out by Merlin helicopter from RAF Northolt to the carrier and flew back. It was a hugely impressive demonstration of UK hard power, and we know that when the carrier strike group goes to the Indo-Pacific next year, it will be with various allies. The co-operation with other carrier groups across NATO now and when it goes to the Indo-Pacific with further carrier groups is a credit to our nation. As the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, will know, the building of those two carriers was ordered under Gordon Brown’s Government, but their development and continuation was carried through under the previous Government and will continue under this Government.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that when we ask whether we have done well by our Armed Forces, there are no doubt examples to which we can point of where we could have done better with equipment, the delivery of certain things or decisions that were made but, alongside that, we should do more to set out and praise the sort of things that I saw yesterday, which the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, mentioned in her opening remarks and which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, will have seen as well.
Yesterday’s demonstration was impressive in front of the ambassador of Iceland, our French allies, the Norwegian ambassador and others. On the carrier, there were multiple nationalities. The ability of that strike group to go to the Indo-Pacific next year will be as a result of our international alliances. That is not a sign of weakness that says that we cannot do it, but a sign that this country can do it and wants to work with international allies to deliver the hard power projection that we want alongside soft power activity.
We should sometimes remember the things that we can do and perhaps highlight those a little more, alongside the challenges that we face. The reminder of this by the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, is not new. It has happened over our history, as mentioned by the commemoration of Operation Market Garden. I, too, went to watch that commemoration in Holland. The gratitude of the Dutch people for what happened there, involving our soldiers, the American soldiers and Polish soldiers, including paratroopers, was properly commemorated. It was a fantastic example of the sacrifice made in the past. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Evans, played a part by visiting many of those events, including the D-Day commemoration a few months ago. It is important to remember that, not to dwell on the past but as a reminder that our freedoms today have been built on the sacrifices of those who came before, including —perhaps I may say, because it is appropriate—my uncle, who was killed on D-Day. I am named after him. He lies in a grave in Ranville war cemetery near Caen. Those points are important.
On funding, the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, will know that the Government have committed to attain 2.5% of GDP spending as soon as possible. I will resist the political point that could be made alongside that. It is a long time since spending has been at 2.5% but, as the new Government, we will achieve that as soon as we can.
However, the overall tenor of her remarks and the support for the order from her and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, were points well made. The noble Baroness mentioned the small number of Peers here for this continuation order. That may be the case but a significant number of Peers are speaking in the debate on the US-UK mutual defence agreement tomorrow. Huge numbers of Peers are speaking on Friday in the Ukraine debate, and there will no doubt be many others for the Question tomorrow afternoon about the decommissioning of nuclear submarines. There may not be many attending this debate but there is knowledge, experience and interest, including that of my noble friend Lady Anderson next to me, who has taken a keen interest as an honorary captain in the Royal Navy. Huge numbers of our colleagues in the House of Lords take an interest and contribute to the debate and our awareness of these things. I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, but that should not be seen as reflective of the interest that your Lordships’ House takes. The only thing I can say about 1688 and now is that we are in different times and we act in a way that is appropriate legislatively.
On the point made by the noble Baroness about not being in a state of war and her asking what this says about this continuation order, someone—it was not me—said that the way the way not to be in a state of war is to prepare for war. There is the issue of deterrence and ensuring that people recognise that there will be a reaction as a result of anybody taking unilateral action. Ukraine is an example of where NATO was supposed to crumble in the face of the Russian assault, whereas in fact it was strengthened, with Sweden and Finland joining the alliance. Far from it being weakened, it was strengthened by what has happened. That is an example of our situation. Our Armed Forces travel all over the world in support of our allies, the defence of freedom, international human rights and the rule of law. All are things that we can be proud of.
We will search for the best way to do those things. We will discuss and debate what they mean and how we can do them. We have a “NATO first” policy; that is the priority for the Government, but it also means that we will take an interest in the Indo-Pacific. As I say, the GCAP is happening; the AUKUS alliance and the carrier strike group going there are really important.
What do we do about the High North, the global South and Africa? I will be going to South America in a couple of weeks. All these sorts of places are of interest to us all and will be debated in due course.
The noble Baroness asked specifically about the service justice system. It is an important issue. If the noble Baroness does not mind, I will read out a few paragraphs because it is important for us all to hear about that. An MoD spokesperson said:
“The experiences set out”
in the various reports looking at the subject of women in the Armed Forces, for example, are truly awful and
“totally unacceptable. No-one should be subjected to these incidents and any form of sexual assault, bullying, harassment, or discrimination will not be tolerated”.
We have done a great deal of work to raise awareness of sexual offending; the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was a real champion of that when she had responsibility for it. The MoD said:
“All of this has been implemented alongside work to raise awareness of sexual offending, reporting mechanisms and implications to ensure that service personnel know that they will be believed and that we will act upon any allegation of an offence”.
That is not completely right yet, but it is the direction we will take.
A new tri-service investigative capability for all serious offending was launched in December 2022. Improvements in victim and witness care followed in March 2023 with the creation of an independent specialist unit. All of us would welcome an increase in reporting rates if it was indicative that our strategies were working in terms of raising awareness and improving willingness to report. A new statutory process for handling complaints about the service police was launched in June 2023, overseen by the Police Complaints Commissioner; consideration is being given to what further changes and improvements might be made with respect to that. In direct answer to the question, “Are we where we should be?”, I say no. However, is progress being made? I think we can all say that it is; we just want it to be faster.
I think I have answered or commented on the various points that noble Lords have made, but let me finish by saying again that nobody in this Room—whether it be the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, His Majesty’s loyal Opposition’s spokesman or the Government; indeed, whether it be any of us, here or in the other place—does anything but fully support our Armed Forces. There are discussions and debates around that, but we are proud of our Armed Forces. They do an outstanding job, not only in Europe but across the world. We are very proud of them.
Human Medicines (Amendments Relating to Naloxone and Transfers of Functions) Regulations 2024
(6 days, 8 hours ago)
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Baroness Merron
That the Grand Committee do consider the Human Medicines (Amendments Relating to Naloxone and Transfers of Functions) Regulations 2024.
Relevant document: 2nd Report by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Special attention drawn to the instrument.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, this draft statutory instrument proposes amendments to the Human Medicines Regulations 2012, which will expand access to naloxone, a life-saving medication that prevents death from opioid overdose. In addition, this draft statutory instrument makes amendments to keep the regulations current by updating references to Public Health England and the Health and Social Care Board, following the dissolution of those bodies.
We know the devastating impact that illicit drugs cause. Drugs destroy lives, tear families apart and make our streets less safe. Drug misuse deaths have doubled in number over the past 10 years, and we know that people who die from drug misuse often do so at a tragically young age, often in their 40s. Almost half of drug misuse deaths in 2022 involved opiates such as heroin. These deaths are avoidable. Dedicated drug treatment services provide the path to recovery and this Government are continuing to ensure that treatment is available and of high quality.
However, we also know that over half of people struggling with opiate addiction are not engaged in treatment. These are incredibly vulnerable people who often have multiple and complex needs; they are at increased risk of accidentally overdosing and dying. Tackling this issue supports the Government’s health mission. It will ensure that people can live longer, happier and healthier lives, and it chimes in with our collective efforts to break down barriers to opportunity and create a fairer society.
Naloxone is a highly effective antidote to opiate overdose. It can already be administered quickly and safely by anyone in an emergency, but current regulations specifically enable only drug and alcohol treatment services to supply it for future use without a prescription. That limits the reach of this life-saving medicine.
The draft instrument that we are debating today proposes two key UK-wide changes to existing regulations: first, to expand the list of services and professionals named in the regulations who can give out naloxone without a prescription. That means that professionals such as registered nurses and probation officers will be able to provide take-home supplies of naloxone where appropriate, should they wish to do so.
Secondly, it proposes to establish national registration services across the whole UK. This will enable other services and professionals who are not able to be named in the legislation but who come into contact with people at risk of overdose, including housing and homelessness services, to register and procure naloxone.
There is a positive background to these changes. The Department of Health and Social Care consulted on them at the beginning of this year and received over 300 responses spanning a range of organisations and professionals from across all four nations of the UK. Of these responses, approximately 95% agreed with the proposals that are set out. This demonstrates the level of interest in this important issue and the breadth of support for the changes we are seeking to achieve.
These changes have also been called for by experts in the sector such as the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs in its review of naloxone in the UK. In addition, Dame Carol Black recommended naloxone provision as an important harm reduction measure in her two-part independent review of drugs.
Allowing more services and professionals to supply naloxone will mean easier access to it for people at risk, which in turn will mean lives saved. With the growing threat posed by synthetic opioids, which are often more potent and more deadly, the importance of this work only continues to increase as time goes on.
I want to provide reassurance that, with these changes, there is no compromise on safety. Naloxone is very safe and effective, even when administered by a layperson with no prior experience. It has an effect only if the person has been taking opioids and it is already widely used across the UK and internationally.
We are taking steps to mitigate against any very limited risks associated with wider access. We will provide updated guidance for services in scope, and we will set out robust requirements for training and safeguarding. I reassure the Committee that the intention of these changes is not to create additional burdens for services, particularly as we are aware that many of those in scope will already be facing pressures. These new powers are enabling, not mandatory. They provide an opportunity for increased provision, based on local need, but they do not make any requirements.
Finally, addiction is not a choice. It is often fuelled by wider issues, such as trauma and housing instability. This is a complex public health issue and must be tackled as such. We must change the narrative on addiction to one that is about the prevention of drug use, the reduction of harm and enabling recovery. The changes we are discussing here will save lives. On this basis, I beg to move.
Lord Scriven (LD)
I thank the Minister for setting out the rationale for this draft statutory instrument so well. I agree that this is a step forward in the ongoing battle against the devastating impacts of opioid overdoses. As she said, opioid overdoses have reached alarming levels, claiming thousands of lives every year. According to the latest statistics, opioid-related deaths have surged alarmingly in most regions. This is not merely a statistic. This is about the loss of lives, families shattered and far too many left to grieve, so it is important to take further action that is effective and wrapped in compassion. The temporary measures taken in Scotland show that the changes outlined in these regulations work and will save lives.
Naloxone, when used in the right place at the right time, is a life-saving medication. This draft statutory instrument will facilitate local supply networks, ensuring a broader distribution system and therefore more effective use of naloxone, empowering, among others, healthcare professionals, the police, prison and probation staff, and people in the youth justice system to facilitate the supply of this life-saving drug.
In response to one of the issues that the noble Baroness raised, a question occurred to me. As this will not be a mandatory provision across the country, how will the Government monitor lives that could be saved but that may not be saved because of a lack of take-up of this in certain towns, cities or regions? It could end up that a life will be saved if one body decides to do this, while a life could be lost in a neighbouring county, city or town if that does not take place.
One of the key provisions in this draft statutory instrument is the move to enable the friends and family of those at risk to administer this drug. Allowing those closest to individuals at risk to carry and administer naloxone creates a lifeline that will, literally, make the difference between life and death.
I listened to what the Minister said about setting up local naloxone providers and supply co-ordinators, and I have read the draft statutory instrument and the explanation—but I am still not clear about what regulatory oversight of these bodies will be in place. Who will be the regulator and what powers will they have to deal with the improvement or, indeed, withdrawal of such a service if it is deemed that the local provider is not carrying out the rules laid down in the draft statutory instrument?
Clearly, the broader implications of these amendments are not merely about the use naloxone but about standing with those who struggle with addiction, and their families. These amendments are an essential evidence-based response to the dramatic increase in opioid use and overdoses. By enabling greater access to naloxone, they will help to save lives.
Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out the provisions in the regulations before us so well. This debate touches on a vital aspect of this country’s public health. Opioids are a pernicious threat to our society, a destroyer of lives and a menace to our streets. The ONS reported that 2022 was the deadliest year since records began for drug-related deaths in England and Wales. Of those, opioids accounted for the largest number of mortalities, at 46%. That is 2,261 people dying every year from opioid toxicity. In Scotland, the statistics make for even starker reading. According to the National Records of Scotland, in 2023, opioids were implicated in 80% of all drug deaths.
So we have a problem, but we also have a solution. As noble Lords will be aware, naloxone is a highly effective treatment for opioid intoxication and has been successfully deployed to prevent death from opioid overdose. I am immensely proud that it was a Conservative Government who launched the consultation on proposals to expand access to this life-saving medication, which concluded in March. The regulations laid before your Lordships are the outcome of that process, and I welcome their positive measures.
I will take this opportunity to ensure that the Government have taken all the necessary considerations. As the second report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee pointed out, there is no indication of the costs associated with the instrument. The Department of Health and Social Care told the scrutiny committee that services that wish to widen the availability of naloxone would have to do so out of their own pocket, which, given the financial pressures already faced by such providers, may limit the efficacy of the provisions laid before us.
For these regulations to have the desired effect—that is, of course, to reduce opioid-related deaths—access to naloxone products must also be expanded. What is the point of increasing the number of people who can administer the drug if they are unable to procure enough of the medication? Furthermore, will service providers be able to afford the necessary training for the administration and storage of the drug? Would this not somewhat undermine the efforts of the regulations? In the light of these concerns, can the Minister confirm that funding will not impact the rollout of these provisions?
Although Regulation 8 does make provision for training, clarification is required. Naloxone can be administered by three different routes: intravenously, intramuscularly and by intranasal spray. Obviously, the first two require injection, which is a medical procedure for which specific training is required. The NHS, rightly, sets stringent guidelines on who is permitted to provide such services, so I think noble Lords could benefit from assurances that the IV and IM methods of administration are permitted only by medical professionals with full phlebotomy training.
Further to this point, I highlight that intranasal spray administration is, of course, the most effective method of widening access to the drug. Intranasal applicators can be used by the full range of providers specified in these regulations and can be easily distributed into the community. They therefore allow for a rapid response to an individual experiencing an opioid overdose and, I hope, should have a greater impact in reducing mortality rates. Can the Minister confirm that the Government will pursue greater distribution of the intranasal spray to complement this regulation?
I conclude by saying that we are pleased that His Majesty’s Government have continued the policy initiated by the previous Conservative Government by laying these regulations before us. I look forward to the Minister’s response to the questions I have laid out.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, who I do not believe I have had the opportunity of welcoming formally to his new Front-Bench role. I am delighted to do that today; he is most welcome. I very much look forward to working with him and hope that he enjoys his role. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Evans, as ever, for his contribution.
I am pleased that both noble Lords, on behalf of their Front Benches, have been so positive in welcoming these regulations. I certainly agree with the closing words of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven: in doing this today, we are standing with those who struggle with drug use and with those around them—the communities, their families and their friends. It is with that motivation in mind that we are doing this.
I will of course write to noble Lords if there are any points that I do not manage to cover adequately. To pick up some of the points, however, the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, asked who will regulate. As part of the legislation, as I said in my introduction, there will be training and data-reporting requirements attached to both routes for new providers. Those new providers could be the emergency services, for example, and they will have to report on levels of prescribing so that effectiveness and safety can be monitored. That will absolutely be required of them.
Lord Scriven (LD)
The Minister might not still welcome me to my place now but although I understand that, my point was: what powers do those whom they report to have in ensuring compliance? That is the bit I did not get from reading the regulations.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
That is understood. I am sure that the noble Lord will be delighted to know that this is to be established, but he is certainly quite right to raise that point. I will ensure that, once that detail is established, it is made known.
On the point about a potential additional burden on services, which the noble Lord, Lord Evans, raised, we certainly recognise the fact that there are challenges in the scope of these regulations. Our intention—I stress intention—is not to create any additional burden. I think I was quite clear in mentioning that these are enabling, not compulsory, requirements. That is important, because it means that no service or individual professional will actually be required to give out take-home naloxone as a result of these regulations. That potentially allows a more gradual introduction of this.
For example, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, mentioned that there may be differences in the level of take-up across the country. I suspect that may well be the case. It will be our job not just to encourage it to be taken up but to work out why it is not being taken up. We will not just bring in this instrument; we will seek to actively promote it. As I said, we are confident that there is a high level of support for these changes and we will continue to work closely with services and professionals to support them with provision.
The noble Lord, Lord Evans, rightly said that the previous Government undertook the consultation. I am most grateful for that because it has informed where we are today. That consultation under the previous Government received significant positive support from the sector, with the overwhelming majority of respondents agreeing with the set-up of the changes.
The noble Lord, Lord Evans, raised a question about costs. There is no direct cost to the Government associated with these changes since, as the noble Lord will understand, this is only an enabling provision. It will be for services to determine whether they use this power and give out take-home naloxone. At the moment, local authorities provide funding for naloxone, which is supplied through drug treatment services based on their assessment of local need. Although local authority public health services will want to support the wider provision of naloxone, I recognise that their resources are limited; I am sure that many of them will tell me that. This will potentially mean that there is an additional call on their resources and they may need to pay for it through their own funding streams. However, we will monitor demand and engage with services and local areas to understand where any pressures may be.
Another point here is that this is not a neutral act. There will be benefits, in relation not just to personal health and saving lives but to costs associated with dealing with overdoses. I hope that will be seen.
The noble Lord, Lord Evans, also asked whether the methods of administration are permitted only by medical professionals. It is already the case under current regulations that naloxone can be administered by anyone. I emphasise the point about high levels of safety and that it can be administered by a lay person.
I think I have picked up most of the points raised, but as I said, if I have not I shall be very pleased to look further into any other points and to write.
To summarise, the changes we are proposing will allow more services and more professionals to give out take-home supplies of naloxone without a prescription. As I said, it can already be administered by anyone but having more services with the ability to supply it will mean easier access for the people who are at risk of overdose. It will support them and those around them, as has been generously welcomed and acknowledged by the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Evans.
In short, these changes will widen access to a life-saving medicine. I am sure we can all agree that any death from an illicit drug is tragic and preventable, and we should take every step we can to reduce drug-related deaths; that is what we are doing today. On this basis, I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting these important regulatory changes. I commend these draft regulations to the Committee.
Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)
I thank the Minister for her responses. In Australia, Canada and some states in the United States the nasal spray is available over the counter. Does the Minister have any knowledge of any plans to administer it via our pharmacies?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am waiting for inspiration, as the noble Lord will realise. In fact, I would rather write to him, as he has made an important point and I want to be quite clear on it. I thank him for reiterating the point.
Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Amendment) Regulations 2024
(6 days, 8 hours ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Merron
That the Grand Committee do consider the Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Amendment) Regulations 2024
Relevant document: 1st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, these important regulations were laid before the House on 15 May 2024 by the previous Government, and one of my early tasks in post was to approve that this change in legislation be put before Parliament. I am pleased that we have secured this time today and grateful for stakeholders’ patience.
This legislation brings us one step closer to extending the chance to start a family. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 provides the legislative framework for regulating fertility treatments and the use of gametes and embryos in the UK. These draft regulations amend two aspects of Schedule 3A to the 1990 Act, which were inherited from the European Union’s tissues and cells directive 2006/17/EC.
The first issue we are seeking to address in these regulations is where “partner donation” is defined as being between a man and a woman who are in an intimate physical relationship, which excludes female same-sex couples. We are in an age where social attitudes to same-sex couples and family formation are very different and, alongside this advancement in attitudes, assisted reproduction techniques have developed that now allow both female partners to take part in the creation of a child. This is through reciprocal IVF where one partner donates her egg to make an embryo with donor sperm, forming a biological link to their child; then the other partner undergoes IVF, becomes pregnant and delivers their child.
Legislation has not kept pace at all with these advances. Currently, female same-sex couples who undergo reciprocal IVF as a non-partner donation are required to have additional screening for infectious and genetic diseases. This leads to an additional financial burden for female same-sex couples undergoing this treatment. It can cost more than £1,000 when compared to opposite-sex couples undergoing IVF using their own gametes, where there is no clinical reason for the screening.
The second issue we seek to address under the 1990 Act is where a person living with HIV cannot donate their gametes to create a family, unless it is with a partner in an opposite-sex couple. Thankfully, through the advances in the treatment of HIV, such as anti-retroviral therapy, the risk of transmission is now regarded as negligible through unprotected sexual intercourse and by extension, gamete donation.
The proposed regulations would allow people with HIV who meet certain conditions to donate their gametes to known recipients, where certain conditions are met. These are: that they have an undetectable HIV viral load of less than 200 copies per millilitre, shown by two tests prior to donation; that they have been receiving anti-retroviral treatment for at least six months prior to donation; and that the recipient knows of the donor’s HIV diagnosis and provides informed consent.
The proposed regulations will also modify the definition of partner donation to include female same-sex couples, allowing them to undergo the same testing requirements as opposite-sex couples. The regulations also create a new defined term of “partner donated egg” and exempt these donations from the requirement to comply with more stringent screening criteria. These policy changes have been adopted following advice from the Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I am delighted to contribute briefly to this short debate for one specific reason. Back in 1990, when the defining Act was passed, it was at the end of a strenuous five-year battle of attrition, as certain Members in this Committee—in particular, the noble Lord, Lord Winston—will recall. The right honourable Enoch Powell had tried in 1985 to get a Private Member’s Bill, the Unborn Children (Protection) Bill, on to the statute book. It was hugely controversial; if passed, it would have prevented essential research into both infertility and avoiding certain hereditary disabilities, such as cystic fibrosis and muscular dystrophy. I should declare my own interests: we then had two boys who were alive with hereditary conditions.
This led to the establishment of the organisation Progress. Three of us were trustees: the late Jo Richardson, Peter Thurnham and myself. We were immensely indebted to advice and guidance from the medical fraternity, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Winston, people such as Robert Edwards and Michael Laurence, and a number of others. When that Bill was originally put forward by Enoch Powell in February 1985, it was passed in the House of Commons by 238 to 66 votes. By 1990, five years later, there had been such a sea-change in public perception—thanks to much of the work undertaken by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, and his colleagues—that the House of Lords passed what became the 1990 Act by 238 to 80 votes and, at Second Reading in the House of Commons, it was passed by 362 to 189 votes. It was an immense change in the public mood.
I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Winston, and his colleagues for their pioneering work. I also pay tribute to those who have done such great work over the past 35 years at Progress and its successor organisation, PET, which is an independent charity that improves choices for people affected by infertility and genetic conditions.
On these specific regulations, I wish to ask the Minister a couple of questions. First, can she confirm that the devolved regimes—in particular, Senedd Cymru —are fully in support? Although this is not a devolved matter, it obviously overlaps with responsibilities that are devolved. Secondly, can the Minister give some indication of the potential additional costs on clients, to which reference is made in paragraph 9.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum? Might these be punitive, or even prohibitive? Thirdly, is there any likelihood of costs escalating to over £10 million? If so, what would be the mechanism for a statutory review, as mentioned in the regulations?
I welcome this instrument but I would be grateful for answers to those specific questions.
Lord Winston (Lab)
My Lords, I am rather embarrassed after the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has spoken so volubly and over-kindly about the work we did together. I have to say that when he was Dafydd Wigley MP his amazing attempts to help us subvert Enoch Powell’s Unborn Children (Protection) Bill meant sitting all night several nights running to prevent that legislation going through, even though there was a big majority in the House of Commons. It is a remarkable story that has never really properly been told, but perhaps it should not be told. I cannot divert the Committee now, but one of the extraordinary things was that by the end of that I had remarkable respect for Enoch Powell, which I never expected. He behaved in an extraordinary way and with great dignity, even when he was losing. He was not quite as prejudiced as people made out. I think he was intellectually challenged by what he was seeing in front of him.
I return to the amendment, the business in hand today, which is essentially the issue with HIV-positive patients. We were the first people in the world to treat people who were HIV positive back in the 1980s. We had a baby as early as about 1986, possibly 1985—I cannot remember. It was a long time ago. That was before the regulations. We were aware that there was a small risk of transmission, but with caesarean section and so on the risk was so minuscule that we felt it was worthwhile. It got a lot of adverse publicity, until it was copied by a lot of other people, and it went on to be accepted. However, I accept completely that what the Minister is recommending is safer, but there are just a few questions I would like to ask her.
First, what would happen if the recipient was already HIV positive? Is there some regulation? That was something we faced nearly 40 years ago. I should like her to explain because I am sure things have moved on with the legislation, and I am not now clinically in practice, although I am still active in research. Secondly, I am concerned that the Minister should argue that this is just a matter for private practice. That is not acceptable. This should be available under the health service. The fact that somebody has a problem with HIV should in no way discriminate against their getting or giving proper treatment to a friend, relative or other person. I regard that as an essential human right. I suspect that there might be some reason to question that.
Unfortunately, one of the terrible things that has happened in Britain is that at the moment human in vitro fertilisation has become colossally expensive. The Minister gave a figure of £1,000. I regret to say that in London that would be almost impossible. I suspect that most people getting donations of this kind would be spending far more than that, even though it may not be clear. Clinics do not declare what they charge. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority claims that it has no power to deal with the price of IVF. That is important to consider. I hope that the Minister will at least address that issue because undoubtedly—I beg her for obvious reasons because she will have sympathy—there is massive exploitation of women going through in vitro fertilisation. Every week, I get stories by email that suggest that what is happening not other than somewhat under the table, so that is the other issue.
The Minister made no mention of counselling. When the Bill was initiated back in 1990—it was passed first in the House of Lords, of course—there was a clear discussion during that debate about the need for counselling. It was repeated in the House of Commons as well—I see the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, nodding—and it was written into the workings of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. It is therefore important that proper counselling is part of this, and it should be written in in some way so that there is some understanding that it should be there.
The issues with HIV are always of concern, certainly in IVF. Suppose that somebody who was negative suddenly becomes positive again, which is not impossible, even though they may have had retroviral treatment in between. We ought to be aware of those things with this instrument.
Having spoken at great length on what seems quite a trivial matter, I have probably wasted the Committee’s time a bit. I am completely in agreement with the aim of what is undertaken here. I do not think there is any need to change the wording or anything like that, but what I am talking about must be considered. I thank the Minister, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for his extraordinary work 40 years ago, which is still remembered and greatly appreciated.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, in following the noble Lord, Lord Winston, I disagree with him: he never wastes the Committee’s time with his knowledge and expertise in helping this field move forward. After listening to the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Winston, I think that this statutory instrument is not just a one-off regulatory update; it represents a continuation of the journey in the realm of reproductive rights, scientific progress and ethical standards in this part of healthcare. It is important that both noble Lords asked us to look at these amendments in the context of that journey.
The landscape of reproductive rights technology has evolved dramatically—particularly recently—with advancements in IVF, genetic screening and other reproductive technologies. We have the potential to transform countless lives in this field. I note that the noble Lords, Lord Winston and Lord Wigley, say that some people are perhaps debarred because of the lack of provision on the NHS. In a wider debate in a wider context, I am sure the Minister would want to take up the discussion and debate that when we have the time.
However, we must note that progress comes with challenges, especially regarding ethical considerations and access to these technologies. These amendments seek to address some of those concerns so that couples made up of two women and those living with HIV have a better chance, or a more equal chance, of accessing this kind of healthcare and technology. These regulations are a step forward in this area in health provision and help to promote equity so that more people can pursue their dreams of parenthood, notwithstanding the issue of where they get that provision, whether in the private sector or the NHS.
As the Minister said, it is essential that these regulations highlight the importance of supporting diverse family structures in 2024. These amendments recognise that families come in various forms and that reproductive technologies should be accessible to all families on an equal basis.
Over the past couple of days, I discussed what was coming before the House with friends, and some people raised concerns, interestingly, about the implications of the use of gametes from people living with HIV. Therefore, it is crucial to understand that the amendment does not advocate unrestricted access without proper oversight. It promotes a balanced approach that prioritises ethical standards while facilitating innovations in HIV medicine. Advancements in HIV treatment have not only significantly improved health outcomes for individuals living with HIV but have made it safe to include people living with HIV more broadly in these amendments.
These regulations champion access, ethical standards and innovation in reproductive health. Notwithstanding the questions asked by the noble Lords, I have no questions because we support this SI. We believe it not only empowers individuals and families but fosters a reproductive healthcare service that values inclusivity, diversity and ethical progress.
Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)
My Lords, when I came here today, I did not think I would be hearing about Enoch Powell. I think that, if he were here today, he would be very interested in what we have been debating. Enoch Powell’s consistency was Wolverhampton South West. In the 2010 election, a colleague of mine of Asian background, a Sikh, won by the same majority as Enoch won it by in 1950. I am glad to say that Mrs Enoch said that Enoch would have been delighted by my Conservative colleague Paul Uppal winning that seat. It shows that people change over time. I wish he were here to hear what I am about to say.
I welcome these regulations laid before us by His Majesty’s Government. They bring forward the plans from May this year that were established by the Conservative Government. Now, as then, we believe that equality under the law is a long-established principle in this country and any improvement towards this end is to be lauded. I am sure that can receive support from all noble Lords.
These regulations mark a further step towards ensuring equal access to IVF services for people living with HIV and for female same-sex couples. It is another stage in the process of ensuring that as many people as possible can fulfil their dreams of parenthood, and it builds on the incredible work done to reduce the stigma associated with HIV, which has for so long prevented people getting tested and seeking treatment. With these changes, we will make it clear that people with HIV can live happy and fruitful lives.
The conditions in these regulations limit donation to those with an HIV viral load of no more than 200 copies per millilitre, meaning that the infection is undetectable and therefore non-transmittable. This requires the donor and recipient to have a personal relationship with one another and ensuring that safeguards are in place to minimise any risks associated with partner donation from people diagnosed with HIV. This will benefit hundreds of couples who have been trying in vain to become parents, and it will also reduce costs relating to IVF.
I hope that His Majesty’s Government will continue in the steps of the previous Conservative Government with efforts to help those living with HIV to have equal access to healthcare services.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I am glad to sense not just support for this draft statutory instrument but recognition in this debate. Following the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Evans, I acknowledge the contribution of my predecessor as Minister responsible for this area, who pressed on with the SI and ensured that it was laid. I am glad to be speaking to it today, as I know he is. I am also pleased to note that Adam Freedman from the National AIDS Trust is with us today. He is most welcome to the Committee. He has come to see the statutory instrument debated. He and his colleagues have patiently encouraged the previous Government and this Government in the right direction, and I thank him for that.
On the points raised by noble Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked whether the devolved Governments were content. I delighted to tell him that they are. He also asked about additional costs. A de minimis assessment was carried out, and it estimates £46,000 to £92,000 for the impact on the fertility sector. Obviously, as has been evidenced and described in this debate, there is a hugely positive impact from the measures within this draft statutory instrument.
I note what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said. I put down that he, along with the noble Lord, Lord Winston, and other parliamentary colleagues past and present, are veterans of change and of the Acts we are talking about. As the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said, this is a journey—one that I suspect is not at its end, although I am pleased to take us further on that journey today. I also pay tribute to the contribution in this area of the noble Lord, Lord Winston, over many years, and to the contributions of other colleagues, who have given it their support and professionalism.
The noble Lord, Lord Winston, asked what the case would be if a recipient were HIV positive. The answer is that they will be able to get IVF. They are not actually affected by these regulations, which impact donors, not recipients. I assure the noble Lord that he was far from wasting the Committee’s time with his comments. I heard clearly his comments about counselling and the need for support. I will look closely at that with officials, following his remarks. I clarify that the £1,000 I referred to was not for IVF. It was an estimated cost for the additional screening required for female same-sex couples, which we are now seeking to correct.
On funding and the issue of availability on the National Health Service, as noble Lords will know, funding for IVF is devolved to ICBs. I am very well aware of the differential provision to different groups and individuals. I will consider future policy options, having picked up this part of the brief and spoken to a number of people about their concerns.
The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, also asked about access to IVF on the NHS. In addition to the point about consideration of advice that I will be getting about improving the service, I want to share his comment about this being just one more step in a positive direction. It is about supporting the fact that families come in all shapes and sizes. A family or a household is a family or a household, and parents are parents. They are there to support and bring up their child in a positive way, and we want to support that too.
I finish by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Evans, for reminding us that one thing that these regulations will do is take us a step on another journey—that of reducing the stigma for those who live with HIV. There have been so many medical advances, which is why we are able to bring this instrument forward today. But attitudes continue to be something to be challenged at times, and I am glad that noble Lords recognise the contribution of the legislative change we seek to make.
We want to ensure that those who want to start a family do not face barriers where there is no reason for those barriers. I place on record my thanks to the organisations who have pushed for and supported these reforms, particularly the National AIDS Trust, Stonewall, the Elton John AIDS Foundation and the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. As I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I thank all those parliamentarians and others along the way who have got us to this place today.
Government of Wales Act 2006 (Devolved Welsh Authorities) (Amendment) Order 2024
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent
That the Grand Committee do consider the Government of Wales Act 2006 (Devolved Welsh Authorities) (Amendment) Order 2024.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, before I move on to today’s business, I know that the thoughts of your Lordships’ House are with the family and friends of the man who lost his life in the train collision near Llanbrynmair, as well as the others involved. Our thanks go to the emergency services who have worked tirelessly at the scene. I also put on record our thanks to the train staff who have supported all the travellers affected.
I have the heaviest of colds, and this is a very technical amendment, so I plan to be short and sweet. The Government of Wales Act 2006 defines devolved Welsh authorities for the purposes of that Act. Section 157A defines a “devolved Welsh authority” as a public authority whose functions
“are exercisable only in relation to Wales, and … wholly or mainly … do not relate to reserved matters”.
A public authority is also a devolved Welsh authority if it is included in the list in Schedule 9A to the Government of Wales Act 2006. This list provides a partly confirmatory role to increase transparency by naming the authorities that meet the conditions in Section 157A. Section 157A(5) includes a power to amend this schedule by order so as to add, remove or revise entries in the list where necessary to ensure that it remains up to date.
The draft order before the Committee updates the list of devolved Welsh authorities in light of the Senedd’s Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022. This Act established the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, a new Welsh Government-sponsored body responsible for strategy, funding and oversight of further and higher education, adult education, and apprenticeships and training in Wales. The commission became operational from August of this year and took on the functions of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, which has now been dissolved.
The Commission for Tertiary Education and Research meets the conditions of Section 157A of the Government of Wales Act 2006 and is, therefore, a devolved Welsh authority. This draft order inserts a reference in Schedule 9A to the Government of Wales Act 2006 to the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, and it removes the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales.
In line with requirements in Section 157A of the Government of Wales Act, I can confirm that the draft order was approved by the Senedd on 18 June. I beg to move.
Baroness Humphreys (LD)
My Lords, I echo the Minister’s reference to yesterday’s train crash in Llanbrynmair and add my condolences to the family concerned.
This order removes the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales—HEFCW—from the list of devolved Welsh authorities in Schedule 9A to the Government of Wales Act 2006 and replaces it with the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research, or Comisiwn Addysg Drydyddol ac Ymchwil. However, this is much more than a change of name. The commission, which was set up by the Welsh Senedd in its Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022, operates at arm’s length from the Welsh Government but is answerable to them. Its board operates within a strategic planning and funding framework established by Welsh Ministers and is responsible for funding and regulating all areas of post-16 education in Wales, including further education, higher education, apprenticeships, school sixth forms, adult community learning, and government-funded research and innovation. It therefore takes over the responsibilities of HEFCW, but much more in addition, as that list shows.
HEFCW, as it is almost affectionately called, has been so much a part of the Welsh education system and our educational vocabulary since 1992, when it was established, that it will be strange to think of the sector without the name in future. I am pleased that the commission has been given a more user-friendly name than its official title and will be known as Medr, the Welsh word for skill or ability, which seems absolutely appropriate. The official title appears below the Medr heading on its website and letterheads, so it will not be lost.
The board, which provides the strategic leadership, consists of 17 members appointed by the Welsh Government and includes four non-voting associate members representing learners and the education workforce. They all have an important task ahead of them as they navigate the new tertiary landscape in Wales, and I wish them every success in the future. On behalf of the Lib Dem Benches, I support the aims of this statutory instrument.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)
My Lords, I associate myself with the sentiments of the Minister regarding the dreadful accident in mid Wales. I also pay tribute to her in her new role and wish her well in it. It is quite an extensive role. It covers not just Wales but Northern Ireland, Scotland and lots of other things as well, but those are the three things that matter most.
I shall speak briefly about this order, which I support. It is a technical order in many ways, but it gives the Committee the opportunity to touch upon the points, as the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, just did. The commission is a brand-new body that takes into account further education and technical education. Before I entered the House of Commons in 1987, I spent 17 years teaching in Welsh further education in Ebbw Vale. I always thought that the distinction and differences between technical, further and higher education were very artificial. Eventually, as the years went on, that became quite obvious, so this is a natural progression in how the Welsh Government and the Senedd deal with post-16 education in Wales. I welcome that as well.
This order gives us an opportunity to mention briefly the issue that the Minister has been raising for some time: the importance of co-operation between the Government in Cardiff and the Government here in London. That is particularly significant on this issue because roughly 50% of students in Welsh universities come from outside Wales and roughly 50% of Welsh students go outside Wales to study, so there is a constant interchange between Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. and beyond, for example, in America, where it is important for good co-operation. I hope that our Secretary of State, Bridget Phillipson, and the Welsh Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle—she is my Member of the Senedd—will be in constant communication, talking to each other about the importance of higher education and further education in both countries. I also hope that the Minister will take that message back.
The other point that I want to touch on concerns something that I was involved in about 14 years ago. At that time, the Welsh Government asked me to look at opportunities for Welsh students to go to Oxford and Cambridge, Russell group universities and, beyond that, Harvard or Yale, as some have done from Welsh schools. Incidentally, some of those students were from very deprived Welsh schools. That project became known as Seren in Wales. It is a system by which students in Wales can get access to opportunities to learn about different universities. In my view, it has been a considerable success, but it is also a good example of how the English education system could learn from what we do in Wales with regard to ensuring that people whose backgrounds mean that they would not normally expect to go to our top universities in England, Wales and elsewhere can do so. There is an opportunity for co-operation there as well.
I wish the new body and the new Government here in Whitehall good luck. I also wish good luck to the co-operation between the Welsh Government and the United Kingdom.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, who commented on this order. I will speak very briefly indeed.
On the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, about going outside Wales for higher education, I attended Manchester University. There were some 300 students from Wales at Manchester University, about 20 or 30 of them from Neath Grammar School alone. It was incredible. It was a gain for all of us who went to Manchester but, in some ways, it was a loss for Wales and its communities. So many who could have contributed did not, in fact, have an opportunity to come back. Therefore, there is a question about how within the expanded higher education responsibilities we organise some facility to help people get back if they so desire. This must fall jointly on the Senedd in Cardiff and government bodies here in Westminster.
The Minister opened her comments today with the Llanbrynmair rail tragedy. I add my condolences. I have, in fact—perhaps I can give notice to Government Ministers through saying this—approached the Lord Speaker to get a Private Notice Question tomorrow on it. I have a lot of interest in it because my father was born in Llanbrynmair and my wife’s father and mother were born in that council area.
I have a couple of questions about this order. I do so not least because no Plaid MP was selected to be on the House of Commons committee dealing with this specifically Welsh order; I trust that that can be sorted out in another place at another time. As has been said, this order allows the new body, Medr, to replace the former body, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. Can the Minister confirm that Medr’s powers do in fact go beyond those of the funding council? I believe they do. Can she also confirm that, notwithstanding that, they are within the ambit of the Act 2006 on which the devolution model was predicated?
Secondly, the question of funding was raised by Nia Griffiths on 8 October. In column 5 of the Hansard report, she slammed the previous Conservative Government for considerably reducing the funds available for higher education. The question that I will naturally put to the Minister is can she confirm that the Welsh Government will now get more money in order to meet that shortcoming that has been highlighted?
Thirdly, I do not know whether the Minister has looked at whether Medr has any role in further education beyond the boundaries of Wales—particularly with regard to the types of students to which the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, referred—but, if there is that responsibility, I wonder whether the model defining the powers that Medr and the Senedd have can adequately cover that relationship. I would add that, if any students from Wales get the opportunity to go to Oxford or Cambridge, they should always take it, then come back enhanced by the education they got there; that is certainly the approach I would take.
Fourthly, in the context of Welsh students going outside Wales, particularly to England, I ask the Minister, please, to ensure—through other government departments, I suspect—that, when we come to the next census in 2031, we have questions asked of those people living in England who have a background in the Welsh language and Wales. That sort of information could be massively important in helping to develop the opportunities that they need to come back to Wales and those that others have when they are thinking of going outside Wales for their further education. It would help them to know that there is some landline with which they can maintain their connections with Wales. Those census figures could be very useful indeed.
Having said that, I of course support this order.
Lord Touhig (Lab)
My Lords, I had not planned to say anything but, following on from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, let me just say this. A couple of days ago, I was talking to a friend of mine whose son went to Oxford as a result of the Seren project initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. He is about to complete and is coming back to Wales to further his career. For our generation, education has always been a pathway out of poverty. We should never put barriers in the way of young people creating and getting opportunities for a complete, fulfilling life. We should do nothing to deny them that opportunity. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and I are totally as one on this. It is a great project. It shows that the co-operation between Wales and England, and England and Wales, has a huge benefit for all of us.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, I, too, begin by adding my condolences to the family of the person who tragically died last night in the terrible accident at Llanbrynmair.
I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, to her place as the Minister dealing with devolved issues. I am sure that we will have some interesting engagement in future.
I speak on behalf of the Opposition on this matter. I am grateful to the Government for bringing these regulations forward. They are simple and give effect to the Welsh Government’s decision to replace the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales with the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research.
I am bound to say from the Conservative Benches that, as a Conservative Government, we have had a strong record on education in England. Successive Governments have made significant improvements in this area. England now has the best readers in the western world, and the numbers of students going to university across the UK are at near-record levels. We on these Benches want to see students continuing to achieve good outcomes. We will be holding the Government to account on their record.
In particular, we are concerned that the Government do not choose to go down the path of the Labour Government in Wales, who have failed so comprehensively on education. The OECD’s head of education said that the education system under Labour in Wales has seen its performance decline and has “lost its soul”. Indeed, we have seen the attainment gap between students from poorer and wealthier backgrounds increase under Labour in Wales. The PISA results for Labour in Wales show that scores have decreased since 2018 in mathematics, reading and science, by 21, 17 and 15 points respectively.
I have two questions for the Minister. First, while I recognise that education is devolved in Wales, can she explain to noble Lords what practical steps the Government are taking to support the Labour-run Welsh Government to drive up educational attainment in Wales? Secondly, can she confirm whether Education Ministers have met their Welsh counterparts to discuss their plan to deliver better standards of education to students in Wales?
As I said, I am grateful to the Government for bringing this order forward. I look forward to the response to my questions.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their valuable contributions to this debate, which have been wide-ranging. I want to put on record the fact that I am the first person in my family to have gone to university. I am very clear—from having a single mum who lived on a council estate—that the pathway out of poverty is education. I will be forever grateful for the opportunities that were given to me by having an extraordinary mother who got me there. I therefore look forward to working with all noble Lords to ensure that, in any of the nations I apparently now represent, educational outcomes and attainment are fulfilled.
I thank everyone for their support, but before I move on I very much thank my noble friend Lord Murphy, who is mentoring me across several of my new responsibilities. I am beyond grateful for his support. I look forward to hearing more about the Seren project from him and my noble friend Lord Touhig.
In answer to the questions raised by my noble friend Lord Murphy, the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, many of the issues now are about co-operation between Cardiff and London. I think that was a theme of today. One thing I want to be clear on is that the benefit of having a Labour Government in Westminster and a Labour Government in Cardiff is that co-operation is more easily given. We are definitely working more closely with our colleagues in Cardiff than the previous Administration did. There are regular meetings and engagement, but I will write to provide more detail on that to the noble Lord.
As has been pointed out, this is a devolved matter and I therefore cannot comment in detail on the Senedd’s decisions. It is for Members of the Senedd and Welsh Ministers to decide how they will operate it and what they want to do, but we will do everything we can to provide support to all Ministers in the Senedd, which they may or may not want, and to seek their advice on occasion on how they can help us as we move forward.
On the specific questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, yes, Medr has taken on functions in many post-16 areas from the Welsh Government. I ask the noble Lord to bear with me because I am working my way through his list. On funding, I think he will be aware that we have a significant fiscal event happening in only eight days’ time. As much as I would love to be able to tell him what will be in the Budget, I think he, like me, will have to wait until the Chancellor of the Exchequer stands up next Wednesday.
On Medr beyond the boundaries of Wales, the Welsh Government’s budget for the commission’s responsibility is approximately £900 million. The commission receives a proportion in line with—this is what happens when you have to read someone else’s handwriting and it is a challenge. Sorry—I will write to the noble Lord.
On the questions about the census, the commission can regulate the activities of Welsh institutions in England. There is a consultation on questions that can be added in the run-up to each census. I will make sure that the noble Lord has the details and that we work collectively for the consultation on any new and additional questions.
If the noble Lord is successful with his PNQ, then I look forward to talking about it with him tomorrow. Investigations are currently under way by Transport for Wales, which is working with all the relevant authorities to understand how the incident happened. It would therefore not be appropriate for me to comment further while investigations are ongoing, so any conversation tomorrow would be limited because we cannot really discuss it.
As I outlined, this order will make changes to the list of devolved Welsh authorities in Schedule 9A to the Government of Wales Act to take account of the establishment of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research and the dissolution of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales. I close—so I can have a Lemsip—by again offering my thanks for the productive manner in which the Welsh and UK Governments have worked together in preparing this draft order, and for the Committee’s support today.