Leaving the EU: Driving Licences
(10 months, 3 weeks ago)
Westminster HallRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)
I will call Dr Coffey to move the motion and then I will call the Minister to respond. There will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up, as is the convention in 30-minute debates.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the potential impact of leaving the EU on driving licences.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie, and I am delighted to see several other hon. Members here for this short debate.
The essence of what I am trying to put across today is that we have an opportunity—a Brexit bonus—to look again at some of the driving licence regulations that were put in place thanks to our membership of the EU in order to ensure, first, that we support rural communities and, secondly, that we unlock economic growth opportunities. I think the Government have already recognised that. In particular, I am seeking reform of our driving licences so that the C1 and D1 categories are applied to everybody who has passed a driving test in this country, in the same way that those of us who passed our test before 1997 acquired grandfather rights. That was an arbitrary deadline, and driving tests have got longer and longer.
This issue first came to my attention when I visited Halesworth Area Community Transport and was told about its challenges in getting more drivers. To drive a van for that not-for-profit organisation, as it then was, people had to pay £2,000 to £3,000 to do a course and pass a test thanks to the regulations. When I went to see the Minister, I was told that they were EU regulations, and that as long as we were part of the EU there was absolutely no way we could change them.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I commend my right hon. Friend for securing this debate. This is all about grandfather rights and the cost to others, and I just hope the Minister is listening to what she has to say. We look forward to all people getting the same rights as those who passed their test before 1997.
Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)
Order. There are Divisions in the House. I will suspend the debate for 15 minutes for the first vote and 10 minutes for any subsequent votes, so let us all be back here for about 4.19 pm.
Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)
The new end time for the debate will be 4.44 pm.
Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)
This June, we commemorate the 80th anniversary of the D-day landings in northern France. My constituents and those of Members here today will be making the journey to the commemorations in Normandy by minibus and in other vehicles. Will my right hon. Friend and the Minister join me in calling on the drivers to ensure they have the right licensing and other arrangements in place, so that their journey is both safe and smooth?
Dr Coffey
My hon. Friend is right to point that out. While there are wider community transport links—I was starting to talk about the Halesworth area, and there are community buses in other parts of my constituency such as Southwold—at times we also need to be able to call on a wider range of drivers to take as many people as possible to these special events. The D1 could be used—and has been used in the past—by teachers or parents, for example, to make connections for children, perhaps to the clubs they run. I am conscious that, if we allowed that for those who had taken their test pre-1997, not everybody might want to take advantage of that, but I think we should take the opportunity to do it as quickly as possible.
Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con)
My right hon. Friend is making some very good points. She touched upon community transport and voluntary work. I chaired a community transport organisation for some years, and indeed was a driver for disabled adults because of my driving licence. Does she agree that we need to allow younger drivers—we are talking about some people in their 40s here—the opportunity to serve their communities, such as via ABILITY community transport, which serves my constituency of Northampton South?
Dr Coffey
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I am sure his organisations have talked about the lack of people who are able to readily come forward, and the costs they are enduring. I know that has happened in my constituency. Investment was made in people but, understandably, after they pass a test and get this extra licence—because they did not take their driving test before 1997—they will quite often get a job, and while they might still be committed to community transport, that commitment will perhaps not be on the same scale.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the right hon. Lady for bringing this forward. One of the interventions earlier on referred to grandfather rights. Does she not agree that the punitive response of the EU will lead to problems that exist only on paper and in imagination? Does she also agree that someone who was qualified to drive in Europe on the basis of their driving test five years ago still goes through the same vigorous testing as now, and they should be entitled to drive, just as they were? She deserves to be congratulated on bringing this forward. She is absolutely right, and the more I think of the EU, the more I thank the Lord we are out of it.
Dr Coffey
I believe this is a real opportunity to adopt some sensible approaches and that that would be welcome across the House. I am conscious that the Government signed up to the Vienna convention in 2018. There are a number of things in there, and we had already adopted these regulations pretty much under EU regulations. However, we have the opportunity to make changes, and this is just like in the Vienna convention; we put in reservations against elements of that. We have put a reservation in to say that people do not have to wait for the pedestrian crossing to tell them to go; they can cross the road if there is no traffic coming. We have used our common sense for regulations affecting people in this country while still having a safe environment.
It is important to hear from the Minister how other, European and non-European countries go about this, in particular for D1 and C1. I come back to the real need to make it more straightforward for people to get D1 licences, because those sorts of services are closing down or are starting to have to be commercial. That is not what we need for our communities. I understand the challenge of the cost of living and the fact that volunteers’ time is precious. More and more people do want to volunteer. At the moment, we still have a threshold; quite a lot of people coming forward have had those licences before. But it is about the next generation. It is about that that community link, particularly with younger children. People have had to take tougher and tougher tests over the years—far tougher than the ones I took. I do not see why we should expect them to pay £2,000 or £3,000 more and go through all sorts of activities to do something that is frankly quite straightforward.
I turn now to C1 and the commercial and economic impact. I went on about this within Government for several years. When we left the European Union, I had the opportunity to look at regulations that either hindered or helped or were things that we might want to tweak. I saw this as a standout opportunity, as a result of my constituency experience of the community of Suffolk Coastal. That was also driven by my experience as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions at the time. Recently, as Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, I saw this as an opportunity for economic growth and to alleviate the impact on rural areas.
I have to say that my right hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) did listen. He put out a call for evidence, which I was pleased about. I think it reflects that the Department more broadly does not want to make any changes here, which disappoints me. That can be determined to some extent in some of the response, or the summary responses and aspects of the response, that the Government gave at the time.
But I have not given up, because I think this is the right thing to do. I think it is the right thing for our economic growth, and so do the majority of people who responded to the call for evidence. There were business people saying that this would be good. It would be much more efficient to run a single trip in a 4.6-tonne van than to be restricted to multiple trips, as it would require fewer journeys to transport the goods. It would mean fewer vehicles on the roads and fewer trips. This is good news.
I should have explained what C1 does: it covers, not the heavy goods vehicles that we all know, but vehicles between 3.5 to 7.5 tonnes. That is an important threshold—and by the way, this also applies to a number of commercial activities. To go back to D1, a lot of the community minibuses were rightly equipped to take people with disabilities and wheelchairs. Some minibuses are just under 3.5 tonnes, but as soon as the equipment and the person in the wheelchair goes on to the minibus, it goes over that limit. As a consequence, activities can be suspended or services withdrawn.
I turn to the responses. A significant number were very pro and wanted a change without any conditions whatsoever. That was the biggest result, at 43% I think, while there were those who thought we could have an opportunity, but with some changes to conditions—at the moment, the licence would apply only from the age of 18, but once people turn 70, it has to be reviewed. I agree with that, which is why I want to see reform, but in combination, that is 73% of the people who responded to the call for evidence who wanted the change and felt that it could be made safely or that it might need no adjustments at all. I am open to discussion with the Minister about possible reforms—perhaps two or three years since driving, or perhaps a slightly older starting age than 18—but the important thing is to make this as straightforward as possible, rather it being about the cost that goes in.
I should also say to the House that this issue actually stops people driving ambulances, and has done for the last couple of years. Although people were already undergoing advanced training and blue light training, because they were waiting to get a C1 assessment, they could not drive an ambulance. That has led to a driver shortage.
We all know what happened in the HGV driver crisis, as it was called at the time. I do not criticise HGV drivers for that at all—I have cousins who are HGV drivers, and they diligently help to power the economy of the country. However, with the explosion of much more localised delivery, which reflects patterns of consumption in the market, the local delivery element can become attractive to people. Instead of being away from home for several days at a time, travelling and staying overnight in the cab, they can have a much more localised job.
Taking this opportunity would open up the market, enabling many more drivers to take advantage of these opportunities and allowing businesses to grow their business, reflecting the availability of labour. By making this simple change, we would significantly increase the availability of drivers to help to drive the economy, which is absolutely vital.
I know that tests have become a lot tougher since I took mine, and I am conscious that there will be organisations that worry about this. I am not looking to try to make things less safe; I am trying to reflect the fact that our driving standards have got higher over time, yet key elements are holding up, at significant cost. The impact of that on the economy, on economic opportunity and on our communities really needs to be considered.
There may be some other things that we need to look into, such MIDAS—the minibus driver awareness scheme. I am not suggesting, by the way, a full repeal of the regulations needed for C1E. I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield was quite keen on making things more straightforward for trailers when he was Transport Secretary, but we are also talking about people driving camper vans or with a horse-box. There are all these different sorts of activities where, thanks to an EU regulation that we now have the opportunity to remove, we have just loaded on cost. There would be fewer vans on the road, making fewer trips—it all makes sense, and would actually be a sensible way to improve safety.
I am conscious that the Chamber is filling up with Members who expect the next debate to start in two minutes. Because of the Divisions, this debate can now finish later, and I hope that this much wider audience will hear why this simple change could make a massive impact in their local communities. I will conclude, though, because I am conscious that the household support fund is very important—I was involved in establishing it, and I should have put my name down for that debate, too.
Having worked with this Minister for many years when we were together in the Department for Work and Pensions, I know that he is assiduous and cares about his constituents in Hexham. I also know that he is innovative. Together we worked on many things that might not have come to complete fruition while we were together in the DWP, but we know they were the right things to do. They are now part of the Government’s plan to unlock economic opportunity, and we will continue to be interested in and motivated by them.
The Government set out a plan for drivers, which I think was a really good plan. We need a few extra additions to the plan for drivers, and I hope that the Minister will work with me on that. I should give him notice that on 21 February it is my intention to introduce a ten-minute rule Bill, and to work with him in advance of that, to try to ensure that we find a good process that helps our rural communities and helps the economy, while maintaining of course the safe roads that we all enjoy.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Guy Opperman)
Thank you for your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who I was delighted to serve under at the Department for Work and Pensions, where I did eight wonderful years. That was good training for the work that I am doing at the Department for Transport, trying to wrestle difficult problems and find long-term solutions.
My right hon. Friend approached the debate in a very constructive and positive way: we are trying to find the art of the possible, rather than perfection on an ongoing basis. She and I both represent seriously rural constituencies, and although I am bound by the wonders of collective responsibility, and echo and endorse everything that the Government do, I share her concern that there is a definite lack of drivers in rural communities in the circumstances that she outlined. My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer) also set out his knowledge of community transport on behalf of the people of his constituency. It is a genuine issue, and to pretend otherwise is naive and wrong. We must acknowledge that.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal has been a doughty campaigner in this space. I look forward to her ten-minute rule Bill and subsequent private Member’s Bill, which as I understand it, looks to reform the process and find a way through. My hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Karl MᶜCartney), who is a member of the Transport Committee and formerly held my role, put his strong views on the record.
Clearly, the legislation is complex, but it is ironic that my driving licence—this applies to the driving licence of anyone above the age of approximately 43—entitles me to drive these vehicles, even though I passed a driving test that, on any interpretation, was of a lesser standard in days gone by. And yet, someone who is under the age of 42 has done a much more vigorous driving test—it is no question that it has got harder, and quite right, too—but is not so entitled, because of the 1997 grandfather rules, even though they might be a policeman or someone who drives a response vehicle. That strikes me as an anomaly.
I accept and entirely understand the concerns of those who do not want someone who is newly qualified to drive a much more substantial vehicle, and it is entirely right to be mindful of that. A multitude of arguments were set out in the detailed call for evidence, which was published and updated in summer last year, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal knows. It outlined particular concerns about the legislation. She will be aware that on 6 June we published the responses to the call for evidence, which sought evidence on, among other topics, the road safety impacts of returning to the pre-1997 licence position. This is not a simple issue, and it is a vital duty of this Government to ensure, to the best of our ability, that road safety is paramount and is observed on an ongoing basis. The analysis of the responses showed that there was support for some form of extension to the driving licence entitlement, but there were also some concerns about road safety.
My right hon. Friend also rightly identified the international obligations that apply by reason of the 1968 Vienna convention, which lists C1 and D1 as separate categories, and which we ratified in 2019. That would need to be addressed. There is also the issue of ongoing driver shortages. We need a legitimate examination of that issue in relation to bus drivers, delivery drivers and HGV drivers, and of whether the change that she seeks would alleviate the pressure that unquestionably exists on the economy and the communities that we all serve. One would also have to think about driver medicals, because we require C1 and D1 drivers to demonstrate a higher medical standard.
Let me respond to a couple of other points. My hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Alan Mak) rightly lauds and applauds the work of his local community to celebrate the 80th anniversary of the D-day landings on 6 June, and the work that all are doing to commemorate that historic date. I will do everything I can to assist him and his constituents to ensure the safe passage of his community as they, quite rightly, pay their due respects.
Several colleagues have raised legitimate concerns on community transport, and that has unquestionably been taken on board. I will certainly do everything I can to try to find out the extent of that issue, and all evidence we can elicit to clarify just how grave that situation is would be of great assistance.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal outlined the position in relation to ambulances. I confess that that is not in my briefing and I am not aware of that issue specifically, although I know it was in the call for evidence, in particular. I think that is a legitimate question and I will take it up with the Department of Health and Social Care to try to clarify the extent of that problem and the difficulties that exist. Any Government, and particularly this Government, are passionately committed to trying to alleviate those particular problems on an ongoing basis.
To summarise, we always look to keep the driving licence regime under review, and there has been a call for evidence. If there was to be change, it would require consultation, so any implementation of change would have to be consulted upon. For my part, I see a significant difference in respect of a community volunteer who is, for example, a qualified policeman of 40 years of age being allowed to drive a community minibus. There is also the larger issue of how we deal with C1s, and the age of individuals and their experience on an ongoing basis has to be addressed.
We are clearly considering the ongoing position with the European Union and the extent of any new driving licence directive that may or may not come in, which has been agreed by the European Parliament. That may also constitute an opportunity for my right hon. Friend to address those particular points on an ongoing basis. I thank her for her ongoing campaign, which is massively to her credit; it is what Back Benchers can and should do. I know that she is a doughty proponent of positive change and I welcome her efforts to improve the lives of those in her community in Suffolk and the community organisation that she represents. I commend her efforts, and I look forward to working with her.
Question put and agreed to.
Stewart Hosie (in the Chair)
Order. Given the delay for the vote, we are not scheduled to start the next debate until 4.44 pm, and I am minded to wait until that time to allow those who remember the rules to get here in good time. It is rather obvious that the next debate is very heavily subscribed, with at least 10 Back-Bench speakers already notified to me, and we require the Opposition spokesperson to start their summing up at 5.27 pm, with the Minister at 5.32 pm. That would imply that those Back Benchers who wish to speak can take a maximum of three rather elegant minutes to say what they need to say, and then sit down to give everybody else a chance—although even with three minutes, we may struggle. If some colleagues are not called to speak, I apologise; stick to three minutes and we should be okay, but that depends how long Sir Stephen Timms takes. We have another five minutes until the next debate.