Public Sector Pay

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Monday 4th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Andrew Jones)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stringer.

I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate today. We have had 37 Back-Bench contributions or interventions. I have to say that there was remarkable knowledge from the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) about the 1823 Act—194 years ago; I am not even sure the Conservative party existed then.

Lots of points have been raised. Let me answer the one by the hon. Member for Blaydon (Liz Twist) about Northern Ireland. The decision and implementation is actually with the Northern Ireland civil service. I do not think that there are any decisions outstanding with Ministers, but of course the key thing is to get that Administration back up and running and hope the parties in Northern Ireland can find the common ground to achieve that.

Housing and housing challenges have been raised, which is entirely fair. It has been very tough for people all over the country to deal with housing costs, whether those relate to getting on the housing ladder or not. I have to say that I do not think that is an entirely private sector or entirely public sector issue. It applies equally to everybody right across the country and that is why housing was the centrepiece of the Budget.

[David Linden]

Will the Minister give way?

[Andrew Jones]

I will get going first, and then I will come back to the hon. Gentleman.

Members also raised the paradise papers—the tax evasion papers. We have not actually seen those papers yet, because they would not be provided to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, but the point remains. Should we be bearing down on anybody who is not paying their fair share of taxes? Absolutely, and that is why this Government have taken more action to do so than any other Government in history and have raised £160 billion from it since 2010.

Many Members have paid tribute to those in our public services, and I would simply agree. Within our society, public sector workers are among the most hard-working, talented and committed people. There are more than 5 million public sector workers right now, right across the UK. They carry out essential roles: they keep our streets safe; they teach our children; and they work day and night in our hospitals. At Christmas time in particular, they will be working when many others are enjoying time off with their families, and we should pay tribute to them for that and recognise their contribution. We should also recognise the contribution of those working overseas, who see their families even less frequently. The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) said that they go the extra mile and deserve respect, and I entirely agree. But the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar), who I do not think is still in his seat, said that those on the Government side of the House see them as the enemy, and I am afraid that is just wrong. I do not think that anybody sees our public servants as the enemy.

[Chris Stephens]

Does the Minister believe that when a Government pay their own workforce decently the whole country benefits from the increased tax revenue generated and the increased spending it allows?

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[Andrew Jones]

I will come to the issue of payment. It is of course part of a balanced approach to delivering public services, but I will address the hon. Gentleman’s point later.

I would like to re-emphasise the point that nobody on our side of the House in any way thinks that public sector workers are the enemy. I entirely agree with the hon. Lady’s point that modern economies have a mixture of public and private and the two are interrelated and work strongly together.

[Laura Pidcock]

For clarity, not one Conservative Member of Parliament has written to the Speaker to speak on behalf of public sector workers on the pay cap. They may not be the enemy, but there is a strong lack of interest in public sector workers.

[Andrew Jones]

I think that perhaps the hon. Lady is getting a bit carried away. We have no idea what the motives are for people being or not being at this debate. I have certainly been here in debates where there has been no Labour Member of Parliament, but I have not sought to make some kind of cheap political point off the back of it, because that is simply not appropriate and not reasonable.

To recap, the Government are acutely aware of how public sector workers form the backbone of our society and again I join Members in paying tribute to them. We have also had some questions about the reasons for pay policy. It is fair to remind the House that in 2010 we inherited the biggest deficit in our peacetime history. There was an urgent need to get public spending under some control, and that has been a key ingredient in returning our economy to health. The coalition Government implemented a two-year pay freeze, which has been mentioned several times by Members during the debate, but I remind the Labour party gently that it supported that policy at the time. The pay freeze was followed by a series of 1% pay awards for public sector workers. In the autumn Budget the Chancellor—he did mention this, I point out to the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd)—reconfirmed that under this Conservative Government the policy would end. It was a reconfirmation because that had been previously announced by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in a statement on 12 September.

What does that mean? That means that for 2018-19 the Secretaries of State will have much greater flexibility in how they consider pay awards for public servants. I will return to the substance of the Chancellor’s announcement in a few moments, but first I will highlight the scale of the challenge. Public sector workers account for roughly £1 in every £4 that the Government spend, so we are dealing with some enormous sums of money here. The public sector pay bill in 2016-17 was £179.41 billion. That was an increase of 3.6% on the previous year, when it was £173.2 billion. There is a ginormous scale to the amount of money that has to be found. That leads me to one of the factors in determining pay policy: getting the right balance between finding the money and rewarding public servants for their vital work, while being fair to all taxpayers and ensuring that we return our public finances to balance.

[Peter Dowd]

In line 11 on page 4 of “Funding Britain’s Future”, Labour shows exactly how it would fund lifting the pay cap. Can the Minister be as explicit and comprehensive as Labour has been on this matter?

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[Andrew Jones]

I am not entirely sure that the Labour election manifesto, which claimed that their policies were fully funded, was 100% accurate. Perhaps we could go back to some of the rather awkward interviews that the shadow Chancellor gave in the media over the weekend.

[Chris Stephens]

The Minister talked about the size of the pay bill. Have the Government done any research on its size and how much activity that has generated in the wider economy?

[Andrew Jones]

The hon. Gentleman asked whether the Government have done research on the size of the pay bill; I have just detailed the numbers. We are acutely aware of how public spending has an impact across the country. Any expenditure has an impact on the local economy as money recirculates, so of course that point is understood.

[Rachael Maskell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Andrew Jones]

I am being very generous, but I will give way to a fellow north Yorkshire Member.

[Rachael Maskell]

I am grateful; I am looking forward to hearing about the Government’s generosity, because I want to know how much the Treasury is expecting public sector workers to receive in the total package, or the total envelope. How much—the figure?

[Andrew Jones]

I will come on to the process ahead. Despite the difficult economic circumstances from 2010, the Government have continued to invest in our public servants. We are helping them, alongside all others, to keep more of their money by increasing the personal allowance. That is a significant change. In 2010, the personal allowance stood at £6,475, but in the Budget only a few days ago, the Chancellor announced that in April 2018, the allowance will rise to £11,850. That means that public sector workers on a basic rate of tax will be £1,075 a year better off compared with 2010.

[Helen Jones]

Does the Minister accept, first, that most of the money spent on raising the tax threshold actually benefits the better-off? Secondly, does he accept that the combined effects of the Government’s tax and benefit changes, even when raising the tax threshold is taken into account, has been to hit low-paid families in work hardest?

[Andrew Jones]

I do not accept that. I have looked at the distribution analysis and what the hon. Lady said is simply not the case.

We have not just helped through the personal allowance. We have invested a further £100 million to recruit 2,500 extra police officers, and in July, my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary announced an additional £1.3 billion for schools to support the transition to the national funding formula. Let us go back to the NHS; in the Budget, the Government announced an additional £6.3 billion of new funding for the NHS. As I mentioned, we reconfirmed in the Budget the ending of the 1% public sector pay policy. That means that the Government are no longer pursuing a one-size-fits-all policy on pay for public servants.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

This was before my time, so correct me if I am wrong; a few years ago it was voted through that Members of Parliament would receive a pay increase. If the principle was right then for MPs and it was seen to be appropriate, why is it not appropriate for all our public sector to receive a pay increase?

[Andrew Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is perhaps not absolutely correct about the process. That also predates my time in the House and goes back to the expenses crisis in 2007 and 2008. Any hon. Members who have been here a bit longer are welcome to jump in, but I think that at that point, Parliament basically gave all responsibility for its pay rises to an independent body. Since then, I do not think that it has voted on the matter. I have certainly never voted on Members’ pay. I recognise that that is a contentious point, but Parliament is no longer responsible for its pay.

[David Linden]

I accept that IPSA decided on MPs’ pay, but does the Minister not accept the absolute reality, which is that all of us are on at least a basic salary of £76,000 a year? He gets an extra allowance on top of that. Does he understand why members of the public watching this debate will find it absolutely bizarre to see a Minister earning such a high salary telling public sector workers that they should not be paid a basic rate?

[Andrew Jones]

Nothing the hon. Gentleman said about what I have said is remotely accurate—I have not said that public sector workers should not be paid a decent salary—so I am afraid I do not accept at all the point he makes. It is right that Secretaries of State have the responsibility to determine the right pay award for their workforces. That is because across the public services, each workforce is different, with different requirements, starting points, starting salaries and allowances, and each faces different recruitment and retention issues. Following the announcement, Departments will be able to fund appropriate pay rewards for their workforces from their existing budgets, just as we have done in the Ministry of Justice.

[Liz McInnes]

I want to make a point about IPSA and independent pay review bodies. NHS workers went on to Agenda for Change terms and conditions. One attraction of that was that it gave NHS staff access to a pay review body, but the Government have been overriding the recommendations of pay review bodies since 2010. The analogy just does not work: the Government have not overridden IPSA’s decisions, but they have overridden the NHS Pay Review Body’s decisions.

[Andrew Jones]

I draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the interview given by the shadow Chancellor yesterday in which he said that public sector pay reviews were always subject to negotiation. Perhaps he needs to have a conversation internally first.

Before any decision on pay is made, there is indeed a well-established process for the consideration of pay across the public sector. For local government workers, pay awards are considered by the National Joint Council for Local Government Services. Firefighters have the corresponding National Joint Council for Local Authority Fire and Rescue Services. The vast majority of the remainder are people employed in workforces with an independent pay review body. As part of the process, Departments will shortly submit evidence to the corresponding pay review body for their workforces.

[Rachael Maskell]

I must correct the Minister on what he has just said. Pay review bodies make a recommendation to Government, and the Government then do or do not accept it. There is no negotiation process in place.

[Andrew Jones]

I accept that—I was actually quoting the shadow Chancellor. Let me press on. The pay review bodies will consider evidence from stakeholders, including employers, Governments and unions, and they will make their recommendations in spring and summer next year. Secretaries of State will use the recommendations to inform the final pay awards in the normal way. The PRBs’ recommendations will recognise the wider economic context. The need remains for continued fiscal discipline, and Departments will take that into account when making any decisions.

Many Members have mentioned the NHS, which I want to spend a bit of time discussing. First, the Government are entirely committed to the NHS. Funding for the health service is at record levels. [Interruption.] Opposition Members may mock, but funding is in fact at record levels. They should be doing what we are doing, which is backing the service.

We know that pay restraint has been challenging and we are listening to the concerns of NHS staff and their representatives. We recognise that the NHS now faces greater pressures than at any point in its history, and the reasons for that are an ageing population, which is a significant challenge for western economies, and the greater demand that we are therefore seeing for NHS services.

[Matt Western]

rose—

[Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)]

rose—

[Andrew Jones]

I have given way already to the hon. Gentleman, so I will give way to the hon. Lady.

[Catherine West]

Does the Minister accept that there is a link between the current crisis in numbers of nurses in the NHS and the pay on offer, particularly given the huge student debts that many nursing graduates have? It is up to £54,000 for those at London Metropolitan University. Does he believe that there is any link between a starting salary of £21,500 and a huge student debt of £54,000 for nurses?

[Graham Stringer (in the Chair)]

I remind hon. Members who wish to intervene on the Minister that there are 10 minutes left. I am sure that people would like to hear from the Chair of the Petitions Committee after the Minister. Time is now beginning to get tight.

[Andrew Jones]

I was not watching the clock, so thank you, Mr Stringer.

I recognise that starting salaries and debt are clearly related for people making choices, but our NHS provides a magnificent career with long-term security and pay progression. The current average salary for a nurse is £27,635, which is very near the national average salary. Nursing presents a great career.

I mentioned earlier the pressures within the health service. That is why the Chancellor announced at the Budget that if the Health Secretary’s ongoing discussions with the health unions bear fruit, he will provide further funding for pay awards for Agenda for Change staff. That will, of course, follow the pay review body process in the spring. We cannot prejudge those discussions or the pay review body process, but we want the talks to succeed, and we share with NHS workers the common objective of a highly skilled, compassionate, productive workforce working to improve outcomes for patients. The Chancellor made his public commitment with that in mind.

I re-emphasise that the Government are committed to providing fair pay awards across the public sector. That is why we have the pay review body process, which ensures that pay for public sector workers is fair to all sides. We must also recognise the depth of public feeling on the issue, which the 150,000 signatures on the petition demonstrate. The 1% pay policy is ending, as announced on 12 September and reconfirmed in the Budget on 22 November. However, it is important to remember that we now face the established processes for determining those pay awards, and we cannot prejudge them. I cannot comment on a report that has not yet been written.

For that reason, the Government have not set out an explicit target for public sector pay, but I can provide an assurance that this Government will take the recommendations into account. We will continue to invest in our public services and ensure that our public sector workers continue to be fairly remunerated. They deliver a fantastic level of public service on which we all rely, and that will continue to be the case under this Government.