16:38 - The House divided: - Ayes: 268 / Noes: 301 - Question accordingly negatived.
17:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 271 / Noes: 304 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:12 - The House divided: - Ayes: 267 / Noes: 306 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:24 - The House divided: - Ayes: 269 / Noes: 304 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:57 - The House divided: - Ayes: 305 / Noes: 271 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr Anderson
I am proud to declare my interests in relation to the trade union movement. I am glad that the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) has returned to his place, because he talked about intimidation in workplace ballots. I refer him to the last two workplace ballots run by the National Union of Mineworkers in 1981 and 1983, in very tense times. There was an 80% turnout in both ballots on taking national strike action to fight pit closures. In both ballots, more than two thirds of the members said no. Where was the proof of intimidation there?
The hon. Gentleman also claimed that my party wants to go back to workplace ballots only, but that is completely untrue. We do not want these changes, but if we have to have them, let us be serious about them. We have tabled amendments to keep workplace ballots, but we have also said, “Let’s have electronic voting.”
It is clear that this Bill is about bias. It is about blocking people like me from having the opportunity to go through the trade union movement and get the skill, the confidence, the training and the support from a trade union to become part of the political movement that the trade unions gave birth to, so that I can come in here and challenge people such as the hon. Gentleman who want to destroy the things that I believe in and he hates. That is what this Bill is about—nothing more, nothing less.
Who wants this Bill? When I was canvassing in Blaydon during the election, not one person said to me, “We want to tighten trade union legislation.” More pertinently, before the debate today, not one person asked me to support the Bill. But 431 people have written to me directly to ask me to oppose it. The employers do not want it, the workers do not want it and it is clear that the public do not want it. If this Bill is forced through, we will see more industrial unrest, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) said. Disputes will not end, victimisation in the workplace will not end, health and safety abuses at work will not end, discrimination will not end and exploitation will not end.
Frustrated workers will not stand back, no matter what the legislation says. We will end up with workers being forced to break rotten laws. If that happens, I would say to members of my party and other MPs of conscience that we should stand four-square behind those workers. This Bill is nothing more than an attempt to undermine democracy. The Conservatives are even abusing the memories of Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher—and I cannot believe I am saying that.
The Minister for Skills (Nick Boles)
We have heard fierce argument in Committee and today from those who would seek to exclude some areas of Great Britain from the reach of the Bill, or who would seek to allow coverage in those areas only with the consent of the bodies to which certain other responsibilities have been devolved. Nothing in the Bill need cut across the positive relationships that we have heard about between unions and Government in Scotland and Wales.
There is nothing to stop union representatives using paid facility time to fulfil their union duties to help represent working people. All the Bill does in relation to facility time is introduce measures that have already been introduced in the civil service, and union duties are still admirably and adequately fulfilled in the civil service.
It is important for the productivity and prosperity of Great Britain as a whole that arrangements pertaining to employment matters apply consistently across the whole country. Employers do not see boundaries when engaging staff. Many employers have employees in all three countries, in London and in various English authorities. Having different employment laws applying would produce a complex situation, involving much confusion and cost for business.
Jonathan Edwards
As the Minister will be aware, this Bill does not apply to Northern Ireland because these issues are devolved. Is he aware of the comments by Dr Stephen Farry, the Minister in Northern Ireland? He said:
“I do not believe that there is a case for winding back the clock in terms of trade union reform or that such regression would also be supported by the Executive and the Assembly.”
Is it seriously a surprise to the Minister that that Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales agree with those points?
Nick Boles
I am sorry we were not able to hear from the hon. Gentleman directly, because I am sure he has much to contribute. He will be aware there is a particular historical record in Northern Ireland, which is why, quite a long time ago, employment law was devolved to Northern Ireland. That historical record, I am glad to say, does not apply elsewhere in Great Britain. This is why employment and industrial relations law are clearly reserved matters under the Scottish and Welsh devolution settlements. It is entirely in order for the Government to propose that the Bill applies to the whole of Great Britain and does not require the consent of the devolved Governments or any local authorities.
Christian Matheson
Several private bus companies in Chester have recently withdrawn rural services, which is inconveniencing commuters in Chester. Why are the Government not legislating to stop them doing that?
Nick Boles
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that those people have alternative services, and where they do have alternatives we are not proposing to introduce the higher mandate. We are producing the higher mandate when a service is effectively a monopoly in the life of consumers, and they have no other possibility they can arrange at short notice.
On the certification officer, it is entirely reasonable for a union regulator to mirror the geographical extent of unions themselves. It would be very disruptive to have a single union subject to different regulatory arrangements in Scotland than in the rest of Great Britain—or, worse, for a union to be subject to no regulation at all in Scotland or Wales, but subject in parts of England. It is worth noting that the 1992 Act already provides, under section 254, that the certification officer may appoint an assistant certification officer for Scotland, and may delegate to that assistant certification officer such functions as he thinks appropriate in relation to unions based in Scotland.
Chris Stephens
The Minister talks about unions being organised on a geographical basis. Does that mean that the Educational Institute of Scotland will be exempt from the Bill?
Nick Boles
The hon. Gentleman, with whom I have had very lively and enjoyable debates in Committee, knows that the provisions in the Bill apply under the devolution settlement throughout Great Britain and to all institutions, including those active only within Scotland.
In conclusion on these amendments, Parliament has put in place proper procedures for considering what should be reserved to Westminster and what should be devolved to other Administrations. Debates took place in this Chamber only yesterday on what should be devolved and what should be reserved to Westminster. Employment and industrial relations law is reserved.
Turning to other balloting methods proposed in amendments tabled by Opposition parties, it is vital that union members, employers and the public have the utmost confidence in ballot processes, as my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) argued so clearly. Without that, the integrity of the whole system would be called into question; members would not use it, unions would not rely on it, and employers and the public would not trust it. That is not in anyone’s interests.
As I said in Committee, and as the Prime Minister has said, we have no objections in principle to the introduction of e-balloting. I expect that in some time—maybe in five or 10 years—the practical objections I am about to outline will have been overcome. It is simply a matter of time and human ingenuity. However, there are practical objections, and the Opposition cannot just dismiss them. The onus is on them, in proposing new forms of voting, to show that the objections can be overcome.
The Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy received evidence from the Open Rights Group, and I quoted that evidence on Second Reading. This February, Jim Killock, its executive director, gave an interview to The Guardian, in which he said of online balloting:
“This is a very hard problem to solve and so far nobody has managed it. Accountability in most software systems means a clear audit trail of who did what, which of course would violate the basic question of secrecy…You have the complexity of making sure that internet systems are secure, that the voting equipment can be trusted despite being attached to the internet, and that every voter’s machine is not being tampered with. Given the vast numbers of machines that are infected by criminally controlled malware and the temptation for someone to interfere in an election, internet voting is a bad idea.”
I am not aware that the gentleman quoted is a Conservative or that he supports the Government. [Interruption.] Instead of shouting at me, Opposition Members should reflect on the objections raised and work with us to try to overcome them. We are absolutely open to discussing these practical objections, and to working with the Opposition parties and anyone else in society to overcome them.
Richard Fuller
My hon. Friend has spoken about problems with processes, but we are talking about some of the most venerable institutions in our country: trade unions. At this early stage of the Parliament, with five years of important discussions to have with trade unions across the country on wages, terms and conditions, productivity and efficiencies, does he want to say to trade union leaders that the Government do not trust them to run a ballot?
Nick Boles
I want to say to trade union leaders that when they can overcome the objections listed not by me, but by experts from groups such as the Open Rights Group, the Government will be happy to work with them to implement new forms of balloting. Until then, however, we remain to be persuaded.
My hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon is right that there is no requirement for primary legislation to introduce new forms of balloting. It can be done under powers in section 54 of the Employment Relations Act 2004. On that basis, I urge the House to reject the amendments.
Chris Stephens
I thank Members who have contributed to this debate. I have been struck by three things. I say gently to the Minister and the Conservatives—
Mr Speaker
To wind up the debate I call the Minister, Mr Nicholas Edward Coleridge Boles.
Nick Boles
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I rise to support Government amendments 2, 3 and 4, and to resist Opposition amendments and new clauses.
The Government recognise picketing as a lawful activity when it is conducted in a peaceful way. We believe that when some people exercise their right to freedom of expression, it should not impact on others’ right to disagree with that view. The main requirement set out in the Bill is a statutory duty for the union to supervise picketing, in particular by appointing a picket supervisor. The picket supervisor must either attend the picket line or be readily contactable by the union and the police, and be able to attend at short notice to ensure that picketing is lawful. As you may recall, Mr Speaker, none of the measures in clause 9 is new. They reflect key aspects of the picketing code, which has been in existence since 1992; most unions have been very happy to comply with it in almost all cases. We have had no suggestions for its amendment from the Opposition, including in their 13 years in government.
Government amendment 2 deals with the requirement in clause 9 for the union to issue a letter of authorisation. I have listened very carefully to the different views expressed on this requirement. It is clear that there has been some confusion about the purpose of the letter of authorisation, its content with regard to the picket supervisor, and the entitlement to be shown it. I would like to state for the record that there was never any intention of having the personal details of the picket supervisor set out in the letter of authorisation, but given that there continues to be uncertainty about how the requirement will work in practice, we are clarifying that the purpose of the letter is to record the union’s approval of a picket related to a particular dispute.
I took on board the concerns expressed about the entitlement to see the letter, and said that I would return to this matter on Report. I assure the House that I take matters relating to data protection very seriously, and do not want to create any room for misconceived entitlement or concern about misuse of personal information. That is why we are making it clear that the entitlement to see the letter of authorisation is restricted to the employer at whose workplace picketing is taking place, or the employer’s agent. To remove any scope for the misunderstanding that the picket supervisor is required to supply their name during picketing, we have removed the reference to the constable from the clause. The police will already have been informed of the picket supervisor’s contact details following the picket supervisor’s appointment.
We have built in important flexibility; for example, the requirement should be to show the letter as soon as is reasonably practicable, to enable the picket supervisor to be at another picket line related to the trade dispute. The measures also help the employer by allowing them to ask their human resources manager or solicitor to act on their behalf. I comment the amendment to the House.
On agency workers, I simply say that new clause 1 seeks to pre-empt the Government’s response to the consultation on agency workers. The Government consultation closed in September; we are analysing responses. We will publish a response in due course, and I resist any amendment that seeks to pre-empt it.
On political funding, the Conservative manifesto on which we stood for election in May said that a future Conservative Government would ensure that trade unions use a transparent opt-in process for union subscriptions. The public rightly expect us to deliver on these promises. It would be wrong, given our mandate, for us to engage in discussions behind closed doors and agree some kind of compromise that was then presented to the public and Parliament as a done deal. Many Opposition Members believe that this change will see political funding fall for certain political parties. That betrays an extraordinary lack of self-confidence in their ability to persuade union members of the merits of supporting their party. On that basis, I do not believe the amendment is necessary.
Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab)
Will the Minister do the same with the shareholders of companies that give money to the Tory party?
Nick Boles
I am sorry, Mr Speaker; I will give the hon. Gentleman another go, because I had another message in another ear.
Mr Campbell
Will the Minister give that opportunity to shareholders in big companies that give money to the Tory party?
Nick Boles
As you will be aware, Mr Speaker, and as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware, any donations by public companies have to receive the approval of shareholders and are subject to the same declaration, at the exact same level, as we are proposing for trade unions, so when it comes to transparency and voting, things are equally clear.
I want to turn at some length to my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and his arguments in support of his amendment 5. All Members will have heard a sincere and principled man making a sincere and principled argument. I say that not because he was so kind as to quote, rather awkwardly, a speech I made in a moment of delusion, but because I genuinely believe he seeks the best for the British people, British business and trade unions. I correct him on one point of fact, however: while some trade unions compensate employers for check-off arrangements, our understanding is that this relates to only 22% of check-off arrangements in the public sector.
Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby) (Lab)
Is the Minister aware that the general secretary of Unison—the largest trade union in the public sector—offered in Committee to reimburse employers for any check-off costs they incur?
Nick Boles
I am aware of that, because I was in the Committee, and the general secretary of Unison is an unforgettable man, and no one forgets when he makes them an offer. However, the purpose of the Government’s measure is not suddenly to undermine the representation of unions in the public sector—that is not what has happened in the civil service, where check-off has been removed—but to create a direct relationship between members and their trade unions by enabling them to make an active choice about which union will best represent them. We have heard from other unions that this has enabled them to compete for the membership of some in the civil service, and to form a more direct relationship with their members.
Jeremy Lefroy
I fully understand the Minister’s point, but in that case, why not let them choose whether to do this?
Nick Boles
I understand my hon. Friend’s argument, but of course the choice would be made by the employer and the union, not the individual members. I have not yet been persuaded by his arguments, and will resist his amendment, if he pushes it, but I hope I can reassure him that we absolutely do not intend the measure to be a way of making life difficult for unions or of reducing their membership. We will double the time trade unions have to transfer members from the existing check-off arrangement to the new direct debit arrangement from six months to one year. That will not satisfy him and those who support his amendment, but I hope that it will at least reassure him that we do not intend this to be a way of making life difficult for unions. If there is anything further we can do on that point, I am happy to have further discussions with him.
On that basis, I hope that my hon. Friend will be persuaded not to press his amendment. We will talk about this more. I hope that I have reassured him that trade unions will have time to form the direct relationship with their members that the Bill seeks to provide.
Kevin Brennan
I just wish to confirm that we wish to push amendment 6 to a vote.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Have you had any indication of whether there will be a written or oral statement by any Minister, given the statement today from the chief executive of Tata Steel Europe reported in The Economic Times in India that the long products division within Tata will have no future within Tata beyond this financial year? This includes the beam mill at Redcar, Skinningrove special profiles in my constituency, and Scunthorpe long products site.
Nick Boles
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I start by thanking all Members who have taken part in our deliberations on this important Bill. We had a robust debate on Second Reading, and a lively and passionate debate continued in Committee. I thank the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), who led for the Labour Opposition, and the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) who led for the SNP. They kept me on my toes throughout, and I have to admit that on occasion their fancy footwork pushed me uncomfortably close to the ropes. It is only because of the superb support of officials in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the unfailing vigilance of my hon. Friend the Whip, and my PPS, my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), and the stalwart resolve of hon. Friends on the Committee that we were able to resist their forensic fusilade.
This Bill seeks to do two things—to modernise the relationship between trade unions and their members, and to redress the balance between the rights of trade unions and the rights of the general public, whose lives are often disrupted by strikes. We have brought it forward as a party that believes in trade unions, that is proud to win the support of many trade union members at elections, and that wants trade unions to carry on doing the excellent work they do to encourage workplace learning and resolve disputes at work.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not sure whether you are as assiduous a reader of the ConservativeHome website as I am, but today the leader of the Scottish Conservative party published a superb piece about the importance of trade unions and hailed the launch of the Conservative Trade Unionists group by the Minister without Portfolio, my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon).
The measures in this Bill are rooted in the manifesto, on the basis of which we won a majority of the seats in the House of Commons at the election in May. They are supported by members of the public whose interests as parents, as patients and as commuters we were elected to defend. The measures have secured clear majorities on Second Reading, in Committee and on Report, and I hope they will secure a similarly clear majority on Third Reading.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
Is it not important to ensure that the Bill is properly targeted and looks to where there is genuine support for changes, not least in relation to the removal of check-off? May I invite the Minister, as the Bill proceeds to the other place, to reflect on the arguments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) in speaking to amendment 5, with the recognition that there should be an agreement to compensate taxpayers for the financial burden, and the proposal for an agreement? It is important that we properly reflect on these arguments to ensure that we have this targeted approach to dealing with issues of trade unionism in the right way.
Nick Boles
I have already told my hon. Friend that I am happy to carry on talking to him about this as the Bill proceeds through the other place, and if he would like to join these discussions, I would be absolutely delighted.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Will the Conservative Trade Unionists group, which the Minister mentioned, be able to join online, or, given the dodginess of the internet, will they have to wait five or 10 years for that?
Nick Boles
I am tempted to say that they will have to buy a small donkey and write it on the side, but no, of course they will be able to join through the usual routes.
I look forward to engaging with Members of the upper House, alongside my noble Friend Baroness Neville-Rolfe, and we will listen carefully to any concerns they may have. I hope that I have demonstrated through amendments to the provisions on the picketing supervisor and the letter of authorisation that the Government are willing to hear persuasive arguments and to respond. In turn, I trust that noble Lords and Baronesses will respect the clearly expressed will of the British people, which is established not by retweets or by protests in Parliament Square but through the votes of their elected representatives sitting here in the House of Commons.