Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
In view of the person who now leads the Labour Party, I suppose I should take that as a compliment.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, I will speak first to the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Hamilton before turning to that in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. Both amendments deal with the date, which is why there was a rationale for the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, to remain in this group. He certainly added extra pizzazz to the debate—I am not sure that is a parliamentary word but never mind.
There was a very serious thread in the arguments brought forward by noble Lords; that is, that in considering the date on which the referendum should take place, the Government should take into consideration very firmly fairness and, as my noble friend Lord Blencathra said, that the Government should not seek to bounce the country into a referendum. That is certainly not what the Government are seeking to do. They seek to find fairness and a level playing field. That has certainly underwritten the way in which the Government addressed the drafting of the Bill, particularly when one looks at some of the technical schedules, to try to achieve that fairness.
As one or two noble Lords have said, it is rather our tradition in this House that on the first group of amendments, whatever they may refer to, somehow we revisit Second Reading. After nine hours of Second Reading, that would be quite a long revisit. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, was not able to take part in that debate so I will try to comment on one or two of his points when we reach my responses to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. But listening to some of the interventions, I felt I was hearing the way that noble Lords were going to vote in the referendum even though we have not yet concluded the negotiations, let alone set the date.
Amendment 1 in the name of my noble friend Lord Hamilton would put in place two restrictions on how the referendum date is agreed by Parliament. First, it would require there to be at least 10 weeks between setting the date in regulations and the date of the referendum itself. Secondly, it would require at least 16 weeks between the draft regulation setting the date being laid in Parliament and the referendum. My noble friend quoted in support of his view the statement made by my honourable friend Mr Penrose, the Minister in another place, when he gave a commitment about timing. My honourable friend Mr Penrose said that it would be clear that there will be 16 weeks from regulations to the date of the referendum.
I appreciate that this is a technical Bill—it is straightforward but it is technical—and therefore it is very easy to read one set of regulations against another. In this case, on occasions noble Lords may have been referring to Clause 6(6), which refers of course to the Section 125 PPERA regulations—the so-called statutory purdah—when in fact Clause 1(2) deals with the setting of the date. I think we need to disaggregate that, and we will deal with Clause 6(6) next week when we consider amendments in the names of some of my noble friends, and others.
Some noble Lords put forward the point that it would be right immediately to accept an amendment which put on the face on the Bill a minimum referendum period of 10 weeks. Some indeed might see this amendment at first sight as writing into the Bill a minimum referendum period of 10 weeks, as recently recommended by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I note, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said, that the committee says, in paragraph 33:
“We consider that, if the Government intend there to be a minimum of 10 weeks for the referendum period, they cannot rely on the operation of the 2000 Act to deliver that minimum period. In our view, the 10 week minimum for the referendum period should be specified on the face of the Bill”.
Since I am currently looking almost eye to eye with the chair of that committee, I suddenly realise that I can continue to say how highly I have respected its views throughout my time here. Since we are looking at its recommendation, I would not be able to say today exactly how we would respond, but the committee has certainly presented a detailed, thorough report, which we are looking at and discussing in detail with colleagues before we come back with any firm commitment and proposal in response. That is the normal process in Committee, because all noble Lords who have taken part in discussions with Ministers or have been Ministers will know that there is a process by which these matters go forward.
Lord Tyler (LD)
I would like to express appreciation, because I think that the other people who happen to be in the Chamber today are not in a position to respond on behalf of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I serve on that committee and I think the committee will appreciate that it is entirely appropriate that the Government should take some time to think about that, but we feel strongly about it so we will look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness says on Report.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. It is not the only point made in the committee’s report, and one of the factors which may not be appreciated by those outside this House is that, when the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee commits itself to these pieces of work, the work has to be done very swiftly but it is always done with great consideration and much detail.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Surely we are not discussing the committee’s report. We are discussing my noble friend’s amendment, which happens to be supported by a recommendation.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I know that my noble friend hoped that I might immediately accept the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Hamilton. Perhaps I can skip forward a bit and disappoint my noble friend Lord Forsyth but he might welcome the rational answer that I wish to give him.
The trouble is that the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Hamilton does not actually achieve the change that he wants to achieve, because it does not refer to the right part of the Bill. It simply builds in a delay between the process of laying and agreeing regulations on the referendum, but not the regulations to which he was referring. It does not make any provision at all for the length of the referendum period itself, which is what I think he was trying to achieve. To try to be helpful and to achieve that sort of change, we would need to amend paragraph 1 of Schedule 1, which creates the power to set the length of the referendum period. I think I have perhaps set in train some further work for my noble friend Lord Hamilton and my noble friend Lord Forsyth, and we will certainly come on to that that later next week.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I apologise for interrupting my noble friend, but I had forgotten that there is another argument that is put forward when you are a Minister and you do not want to accept the amendment and your arguments are a bit thin, and that is that the drafting is not correct. Would it not be possible at a later stage in the Bill for the Minister to bring forward an amendment which was drafted correctly and met my noble friend’s purpose?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I was trying to be very reasonable by saying that we are looking at the proposal from the committee’s report, which appears to chime exactly with that of my noble friend Lord Hamilton. With the respect that I pay to the committee and to my noble friend, I want to be able to bring back a proposal which is appropriate and would achieve a result that the Government feel is workable and the House feels is right. That will be a matter for debate on another occasion.
In any event, the Government has always been clear that we do not intend to propose a referendum period shorter than 10 weeks. I know that some confusion has also arisen because of the issue of when the lead campaign should be designated. What we have tried to do is to provide more flexibility in this Bill by saying that that can happen before the 10-week period, and if it does it extends the whole period to which we are referring. I do not wish to confuse the matter even further. We had a good debate on those first two amendments. The Delegated Powers Committee has made a recommendation, and we are certainly looking at that very closely.
Lord Tomlinson (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that the discussion we are having at this stage of the Bill would be vastly improved if we had the letter that the Prime Minister has committed to send to the President of the Council and make available to parliamentarians? At the moment, we have all sorts of hypotheses coming into the discussion about what might be there. Would it not be better if we knew the agenda for the discussions?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it is right for this House to be apprised of the agenda for discussions further than it has already been—the agenda has, after all, been set out in several speeches by the Prime Minister—but that is separate from the process of having referendum legislation. As I said at Second Reading, this is merely the legislative vehicle for the referendum itself. The noble Lord is right that Parliament should have the opportunity properly to examine the proposals put forward by the Prime Minister and what has happened at the end of that. I am sure that we will discuss that further next week.
At this stage, I would like merely to give the straightforward answer to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. The Bill currently provides for the referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the EU to take place no later than 31 December 2017. His amendment would move that deadline later, to 31 December 2019. As other noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, pointed out, holding this referendum by the end of 2017 was a clear manifesto commitment. It has been repeated by the Government since the election, and as drafted, this Bill will fulfil that commitment and allow the British people to give their view by the end of 2017. That is why I can confidently say that we would not accept the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle.
However, I was asked one or two questions and perhaps I might try to address those. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, made the point that there will be other events around the rest of the European Union over the forthcoming couple of years. I would say that when we are holding the presidency of the Council, we will be perfectly competent to carry forward a referendum at that time, given the experience elsewhere in Europe. There are so many examples, but I will try to pick out one or two—I have gone on long enough already so I will not test the House’s patience too much. In 1993, the Danish Government held the presidency for the first six months. On 18 May during that period, they held a referendum on the Edinburgh agreement, setting out arrangements for Denmark. During the Polish presidency of July to December 2011, Poland held a parliamentary election. All seats in both Houses were up for re-election and that brought in Tusk for a second term.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
Those are not adequate precedents because, for example, the Danish referendum was on some amendment to Denmark’s relationship with the European Union. What is proposed in this Bill is a possible total reversal. It would be wholly impossible, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, has said, for the UK, in the middle of its presidency of the European Union, to find that it is no longer a member or will shortly not be a member. It would place the UK presidency in an impossible situation.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
I know the noble Lord’s experience of these matters so he is probably well ahead of me on this, but perhaps I can remind him that in 2006 and 2007 Germany and Finland swapped presidency dates to avoid national elections in each, so it can be done.
I was also asked a pertinent question by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves—
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. I honestly think these so-called precedents which she has brought to the House to show it can be done ignore one really rather important point. She is probably in a similar position to the Prime Minister—that nothing is excluded as far as his own position in the campaign is concerned—but what is surely totally excluded is that, in the middle of our presidency, the Prime Minister of this country should campaign to leave the European Union.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
We have not reached that point yet, since this is merely the first clause of a Bill trying to deliver the ability to hold a referendum, but these are all serious points. Noble Lords are pointing out that any decision about setting a date must take into account all the circumstances under which a referendum would be expected to operate. The Government would have to take a decision about which date to recommend to Parliament; it would then be for Parliament to consider that and to set their view.
The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, pointed out that in the past there has been at least one occurrence of local election dates being moved. Amendments were agreed in another place to rule out those May dates in 2016 and 2017 specifically to ensure that the referendum does not clash with known local government dates. There is certainly no expectation that local government dates should be moved. That is not our plan and we do not see that happening. However, without wishing ill on any Member of any party in the other place, if there had to be a completely unforeseen parliamentary by-election or local government by-election and it was decided that a by-election might be held on the same day as the referendum, I think the House might consider that to be rather a different matter, but we have no plan to move other elections to combine them with the referendum.
My noble friend Lord Hamilton has moved his amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has spoken to his. At this stage, I say formally to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that I hope he may see fit not to move his amendment when it is called from the list, and I invite my noble friend Lord Hamilton to withdraw his Amendment 1.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I may have misheard, but I thought my noble friend said in the context of the date of the referendum that the Prime Minister would make a recommendation to both Houses and both Houses would be able to decide. As that is by regulation, would that not get us into some difficulty in this House?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My noble friend tempts me sorely. I think he has made the point better than I could.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that the grouping of the amendments is somewhat weird. I cannot quite understand why Amendment 1 was grouped with Amendment 2, other than that one followed the other. They do not seem to have an awful lot in common. I congratulate the noble Lord, because his amendment certainly created much more interest and lively debate than mine.
I am very grateful to the House, because there seems to be almost complete unanimity over my amendment. I take my noble friend’s point that the wording could perhaps have been better, but I was enormously encouraged—almost shocked—to get the support of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, to whom I am very grateful. The point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, about the Delegated Powers Committee having a view on this as well was also very encouraging. We have the Electoral Commission and the whole of your Lordships’ House, I think, in support. Indeed, it is in the spirit of what the Government have already said. On that basis, I take my noble friend’s point that it was not very well worded, so work must be done. May I check with her where this leaves us today? Presumably, an amendment will be put forward which is better worded but applies itself to the spirit of my amendment and will be tabled at Report as a government amendment. Is that correct?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, as I explained, the normal procedure is that the Government, having seen the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform report, considers all its recommendations and consults in government and then considers next steps. That is when decisions are made, so I cannot give my noble friend any undertakings at this stage; clearly, that is not the normal procedure.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
I am very grateful to my noble friend for that, but I am also mindful of the seemingly total support in your Lordships’ House, so I hope that we can get a better amendment tabled at Report. I am not quite sure who will be voting against it. I thank my noble friend very much and I withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
I assure the noble Lord that if that were the question the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was suggesting, I would not be supporting him.
I think the Minister should look at this, go back to the Electoral Commission and make sure that it really has tested the wording with Welsh speakers in Wales.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I will first address the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Hamilton. As other noble Lords have commented and as my noble friend explained clearly, with his Amendments 3 and 4 he seeks to swap round part of the referendum question from:
“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”,
to, “Should the United Kingdom leave the European Union or remain a member of the European Union?”. The Government accepted the advice of the Electoral Commission about the text of the question after it carried out a consultation following the publication of the Government’s Bill. The Bill was amended in another place in accord with the Electoral Commission’s recommendations at that point. I understand my noble friend’s point. He wants to see whether there is a level playing field. Is it fairer to have the phrases in the Bill in the order he prefers? I note in passing that he has not tabled corresponding amendments to the Welsh version of the question, but we will come to Welsh in a moment.
The Electoral Commission carried out extensive analysis of the referendum question before recommending the formulation that currently appears in the Bill. Its briefing makes the point that it is concerned about my noble friend’s amendments and reminds the House that its research found that starting questions with “leave” was less intuitive and more leading than starting with “remain”. In other words, it argues that if we were to accept my noble friend’s amendments and change the order, we would be unsettling a level playing field and drawing more attention to saying that people should vote to leave. In that circumstance, I am not minded to accept my noble friend’s amendment but I appreciate the way in which he has brought it forward to give us the opportunity to consider the question itself.
Amendments 5 and 6 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, also refer to the question but look at the way in which it has been provided in Welsh. I am grateful to the noble Lord for making the point that Amendments 5 and 6 are probing amendments. They would change the wording of the Welsh language that would appear on the ballot papers in Wales. As with the English language question, the wording was recommended by the Electoral Commission following a period of research over the summer. I will say one or two words about that research and our response to it because the matters were also raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan.
The research included consulting the Welsh Language Commissioner, as well as members of the public and other bodies, including local government bodies. As the Electoral Commission noted, its research explicitly considered the words that appear in the noble Lord’s amendment. The participants whom it contacted and researched deeply preferred the formulation in the Bill to that proposed by the noble Lord. I certainly do not have knowledge of Welsh, so I have to look at the research.
I have to say that I miss hearing Welsh spoken in the corridors here, as I did commonly when Lord Roberts of Conwy was in conversation with, I think, a former Leader of this House, Lord Cledwyn. It is a melodic and fascinating language. All I did was to teach for five years at a Welsh girls’ school but, regrettably, I did not learn Welsh during that time.
The Electoral Commission, in carrying out its research, tested Welsh versions of the questions during its fieldwork. It found that, overall, participants did not like the word “para”, which is not the word used in the noble Lord’s amendment but is close to it. It was felt that “para” sounded like other words, such as parachute or the mutated version “bara”, which is the Welsh word for bread. People said in particular that they did not like the alternatives that are specifically in the noble Lord’s amendment—that is, “barhau” or “parhau”.
Lord Wigley
Obviously I shall not chase this matter for any length of time, but has the noble Baroness considered the methodology that may have been used by the Electoral Commission? She is putting all her eggs in that basket and, if there were any question as to the methodology, the conclusions might also be suspect. I ask her only to look at this matter again between now and Report so as to be absolutely sure.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I will certainly be happy to look at the methodology adopted by the Electoral Commission. In my early life I was a sociologist—although I hardly dare say that in front of my noble friend Lord Forsyth—and I can say that, looking through the report, the Electoral Commission has carried out research through citizens advice bureaux. The methodology it has used shows that it has taken advice not only from organisations but from individuals, and from individuals not only in one particular area but in sample areas around the country. Therefore, I respect its research, although I will of course consider the matter.
The noble Lord referred in particular to the word “aros”. I understand that most participants noted that either “aros” or—I apologise for the fact that I shall have to spell this—“ddal i fod” could be used in the referendum question. Both options were considered to work well, but in fact “aros” was felt to be more straightforward and clearer.
We would say that the Electoral Commission carried out proper research but, in the light of the noble Lord’s request, of course I will consider what he said. If I may, I will come back to him outside the Chamber so that we may talk about this before Report. I hope that that will be helpful.
The noble Lord’s Amendment 7 seeks to ensure that the English and Welsh language questions and answers are given equal prominence on the ballot paper in Wales. That has indeed been the practice on ballot papers in Wales. I have copies of a range of them, which show that the options have been arranged very carefully side by side. The noble Lord’s amendment gives me the opportunity to explain that, but the amendment itself does not perhaps give great clarity as to how a ballot paper would achieve that balance. I am very happy to share that textual information with the noble Lord if he so wishes.
Finally, I invite my noble friend Lord Hamilton to withdraw his amendment, if he is so minded. I hope that he will be, and I hope that when it comes to be called, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, will choose not to move his amendment.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wigley—at least he has some commitment from my noble friend the Minister to come back to him. I did not get the impression that there was the overwhelming support from the Committee for Amendments 3 and 4 that there was for Amendment 1. Therefore, I am not looking to come back with an improved form of the amendment on Report and I am more than happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Ely
It was right to give the Scottish people the autonomy to decide that 16 year-olds could vote, but the Government opened the door. They knew when they allowed the SNP to determine a lot of the rules of that referendum that that would be the consequence.
I want to turn now to the practicalities of implementation. There would undoubtedly be some issues with the practicalities of implementing this amendment. Obviously, the further away the referendum is, the easier it will be to enact. Of course, electoral registration officers would need to actively encourage and inform those newly eligible electors to vote and if a separate registration initiative for young people is required, then so be it. Let us make it happen. The current system already allows for 17 year-olds and many 16 year-olds to go on the register so we would not be starting from scratch. We could use social media to encourage this age group to inform themselves. They are experts at this and it is important that we understand that that would be an easy way to communicate with them.
It could be argued that it would be easier to implement this policy in England than it was in Scotland because, according to the Government’s own website, after 16 in England you have to stay in full-time education at college or school, start an apprenticeship or traineeship, work or be a volunteer. So we know where these people are. It is not quite as clear-cut in Scotland but in England, according to the Government’s website, we know where they are. So ultimately, whether this is able to occur or not is a question of political will. If the Government want this to happen they can overcome those technicalities in the way that Scotland did. The Government should also remember that when the Electoral Commission last consulted the public on whether 16 and 17 year-olds should be allowed to vote, 72% agreed that they should be given a voice. I urge the Minister to rethink on this issue and to be aware that the voters of the future are watching pretty closely.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, this has been an excellent debate, with strong feelings expressed on all sides. I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I do not recite all the different amendments and what they purport to do because in effect they come down to one issue: whether or not we should allow 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in this referendum. The voting age for UK parliamentary elections is set at 18. This is the voting age which was used in the 1975 referendum on EEC membership and the 2011 alternative vote referendum and it is the voting age that is used in most democracies, including most member states in the EU. Only Austria in the EU allows voting at 16.
Let me deal with some of the issues that have been raised in the debate. Noble Lords have said that young people are or will be engaged and politically active. That may certainly be true of some 16 year-olds but equally it is true of some 14 year-olds and not true of some 50 year-olds, and political engagement or a lack of it cannot be enough justification for giving or denying the vote.
I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was an early enthusiast for politics and elections and would have been capable of making a decision even before the age of 16. In his Second Reading speech, my noble friend Lord Ridley was far more modest about his capacity to make a decision at 17 or 18, as was my noble friend Lord Blencathra. Enthusiasm has been observed, particularly in the Scottish referendum, but I adhere to the point that it would be odd if enthusiasm of itself created the right to vote. The appetite for this change is in question, as it seems that young people are split on the issue. Recent YouGov polling indicates that although 56% of 16 year-olds want to be able to vote, only 42% of 17 year-olds and 36% of 18 year-olds want the voting age to be lowered.
Another point that has been raised is that people will live with the outcome longer and therefore it is important that younger voters are involved. Of course, 15 year-olds will have to live with the outcome even longer, even if the change proposed in the amendment were made. So will 14 year-olds and those even younger than that, but no one is proposing that we extend the vote to these age groups. I agree with my noble friend Lord Lawson that those who are older are concerned for their children and grandchildren and have an important desire to serve their interests.
The development of the adolescent brain is a complex area. It might be thought that to deny 16 year-olds is to be in some way a killjoy. I have noted the enthusiasm that several noble Lords have shown for the appetite of 16 year-olds to be engaged politically—many of those who have been involved in the Lord Speaker’s visits in particular; the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, spoke well about that, if I may say so. There is no one clear point at which we categorically say that a person becomes an adult. Research into brain development has yet to provide us with an obvious point at which we can distinguish between adolescents and adults. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, talked about difficulties in decision-making. Although Professor Laurence Steinberg argues that 16 year-olds are as capable as adults of making measured decisions, Dr Jay Giedd argues that the human brain does not reach full maturity until at least the mid-20s. Clearly, this is an issue that requires careful consideration, and deserves to be considered as part of a stand-alone debate.
Noble Lords have pointed to a number of things that a person can do when they turn 16 and suggested that this means that they ought to be able to vote. These claims do not bear much scrutiny. It is true that a person can marry at 16, but this important and life-changing decision cannot be made in England without parental consent. Of course, it is inappropriate for parental consent to be required to cast a vote. Similarly, although 16 and 17 year-olds can join the Army, parental consent is required, and it is not until a person turns 18 that they can be deployed in a conflict zone. My noble friend Lord Blencathra listed a number of things that 16 year-olds cannot do and, in those circumstances, I do not propose to list them.
There is no clear point at which a young person becomes an adult, but the restrictions that I have listed and were referred to by several other noble Lords acknowledge the simple fact that it is generally at 18, not 16, that society draws the line. It is at this point that we deem a person to be fully capable of making important decisions. We must draw a line somewhere. Of course there is always an element of arbitrariness: what about the person who is 17 years, 11 months—or, as some noble Lords would have it, 15 years, 11 months?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
The Minister speaks of being capable of making decisions. Will he think carefully about that, and think about adults in the first stages of dementia?
Lord Faulks
I will indeed think carefully about that. As I conceded, a number of people, often through no fault of their own, may find it difficult to make decisions, but we are talking about those who, in old-fashioned parlance, used to be considered not to be capable of making a decision by reason of infancy. I entirely accept that to describe 16 year-olds as children may be inappropriate, but we should not assume simply because of the speed at which the world works, access to the internet or the capacity for travel, that this necessarily brings the wisdom to take decisions before the age of 18.
Baroness Crawley
Does the noble Lord agree that given the proportion of young people who access further and higher education now—nearly 50%—those young people have over a number of years gained a great deal of maturity and capacity that might not have been the case for a similar cohort of young people in, say, the 1950s, when only 3.4% of them accessed higher and further education?
Lord Faulks
Of course, it was not until 1969, in the Representation of the People Act, that the age was reduced from 21 to 18. It is not the case that young people have changed that radically—notwithstanding the speed of communication, about which we have heard so much.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
On that point, what conclusion would he draw? It was reduced from 21 to 18. What is the magic about 18? It used to be 21. What about driving licences? What about the age of consent? Surely there is a wide range of ages; there is no one particular age at which it can be said that everything has now moved from childhood to adulthood across the board. The question is: in this referendum, which is likely to be generational, why should we cut these young people out?
Lord Faulks
It is not a question of cutting people out, it is a question of deciding, on all the evidence, with careful consideration of what we know about what most young people of a certain age can or cannot do, and coming to a consistent view. The view has been taken that the age should be 18. Why should we change it simply to deal with this particular opportunity to vote?
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
Perhaps the noble Lord could help a little on this. He is advancing, as always, a highly sophisticated presentation of a totally negative point of view on giving the vote to 16 and 17 year-olds, but he is a member of a Government who held the door open to give Scots 16 and 17 year-olds the vote. Where were all those arguments then? Lying on the floor, I suppose.
Lord Faulks
Although it is tempting to go down that route and describe the cause or causes of the door being open—I was not in any position to argue that matter then—I think that we should return to the basic fact that, after careful consideration, 18 was considered the right age. Of course the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, is quite right: there is an element of arbitrariness about whatever age you choose. The question is: is it an age which has, by and large, received approval and consent? Yes it is. Of course that does not mean that this is the last word on the subject; people will differ about these things. There will be people who think that 21 was the right age and it should never have been lowered to 18.
Noble Lords will know that the power to determine the voting age for Scottish Parliament and local elections in Scotland was devolved to the Scottish Parliament, and the Scottish Parliament decided to lower the voting age to 16 for those elections. The Government have responded to requests to increase the powers of the devolved Administrations and will soon devolve similar powers to the Welsh Assembly.
Devolution, by its very nature, gives rise to the possibility of different laws applying in different parts of the United Kingdom. It does not mean that we must harmonise our differences. The fact that people may do certain things in Scotland aged 16—get married without parental consent, formally change their name, access their birth records if adopted—does not mean that the same rules must or should apply across the United Kingdom. One of the advantages of devolution is the capacity of different parts of the United Kingdom to make these choices.
More specifically, what about the precedent set by the Scottish independence referendum? The decision was made by the Scottish Parliament that whoever opened the door would decide on the franchise. It is right that decisions about the franchise for elections and referendums that affect the whole of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are made by this Parliament. As I said, decisions of the Scottish Parliament do not and should not prevent Parliament from taking a different decision.
The Government do not think that this is the right vehicle, as my noble friend Lord Higgins pointed out so cogently. Any change to the entitlement to vote must to be considered properly and fully in specific legislation. I gave some examples where the law places restrictions on 16 and 17 year-olds. Any proposal to lower the voting age must be carefully examined in that overall context.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I hear what the Minister says; indeed, in another place, the Foreign Secretary himself said that this was an argument for another day. Could the Minister assist me by saying whether, over the course of this Parliament—in the next four or five years—the Government might consider a change to the franchise?
Lord Faulks
I am not privy to all the Government’s thinking, but, no, I do not understand that that is on the horizon. Any proposal must be examined carefully: we cannot change the voting age and simply assume that it will have no implications for other areas where our law and our society treat 16 and 17 year-olds differently from their 18 year-old counterparts.
Noble Lords will wish to reflect on how this change would look to the public. I have no idea how 16 and 17 year-olds—were they to be given the vote—would vote. A number of people might guess and they might well be wrong. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, in an exchange with my noble friend Lord Tebbit, that he thought that 16 and 17 year-olds were more likely to use their vote better than my noble friend Lord Tebbit. I am not quite sure what that said. Nor do I know how 18 and 19 year-olds are likely to vote. It is possible that a change in the franchise of such a radical nature—this is a radical change—will be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as some sort of attempt to affect the result of the referendum. We are anxious as a Government that, whatever the result of the referendum, the legitimacy of the process cannot be questioned. The safest way of doing that is to stick to the Westminster franchise and leave the vote at 18.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, who is not currently in his place, made a valiant attempt to say that we have opened the door by allowing Peers to vote or by the minor adjustment in Gibraltar. We are talking about millions; we are talking about a radical change. It is a change that not only would be radical, but would have the potential to affect timing. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Hamilton for referring to the report of the Electoral Commission. Quite rightly, the commission did not offer a view on 16 and 17 year-olds, but it did, in addition to the paragraph to which he referred, say:
“The Commission’s view is that any changes to the franchise for the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union should be clear in sufficient time to enable all those who are eligible, to register and participate in the referendum”.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said, “Well, we could accelerate the process having regard to the fact that so many young people are aware of social media and could be brought up to speed with the issues”. However, as I understood the debate yesterday about registration, it was so important that we did not rush the procedure because people might be left off. It was far too important a matter to in any way accelerate. Therefore, if it affects the timing, which I understand to be very important in a number of contexts, that is a relevant factor. However, the crucial argument is that this is not an appropriate moment to make that change. In all those circumstances, I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
Could I ask a hypothetical question? I preface it by saying that I understand that the “leave” campaign wants to support this amendment. That might surprise some people: it surprised me. How firm are the Government in opposing this amendment? Let us suppose, for example, that the amendment is carried on Report and is sent back to the House of Commons, which already rejected this proposal. If it comes back to the House of Lords, and we insist on the amendment—after all, Monday indicated that this House is not only roaring; it is using its teeth as well—the Parliament Act would apply. What then would happen to this Bill? How long would it be delayed and what effect would that have on the timetable?
Lord Faulks
It is very tempting to hypothesise in the face of that invitation, but I am afraid it is an invitation that I am going to decline.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I congratulate the Minister on an absolutely brilliant speech, of the kind that I used to try to write—a mandarin speech. All the phrases were there: “a dangerous precedent”; “not the right time”, and “unforeseen consequences”. When all failed at the Treasury, I used to resort to, “beyond the ambit of the vote”, which nobody understood, not even me. It was brilliant, but one thing that I thought was missing was the answer to the point made by my noble friend Lord Hannay, that we were not trying to alter the arrangements for elections. We were talking only of a one-off referendum. That seems to be quite a strong point. Will the Minister touch on that?
Lord Faulks
Of course, the noble Lord will recall that we had a referendum relatively recently, in 2011, about a change in the voting system—to introduce the alternative vote—which was on the Westminster model. The argument was very much, “Well, this is inevitable” or “This is a slippery slope”, to use the expression of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, and that, by accepting the validity of the argument on the European referendum, it must follow, as night follows day, that we would then proceed to change the Westminster franchise. By accepting that argument, we would be reversing into an inevitable change in the Westminster franchise. There might or might not be an argument for doing that, but that is an argument that ought to take place in the fullness of time, with all available evidence, once all the matters that we have gone into and wanted to consider were available.
Lord Tyler
My Lords, this has been a very good debate. I do not intend to detain the House for long because, frankly, there will be a further opportunity to debate these issues. I just want to deal with one or two factual points. The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, said that the franchise is not being extended in this Bill. It is being extended, as my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire said, and, indeed, there will be further debates about extending the franchise. I understand that it is Conservative policy to extend the franchise to UK citizens resident in the EU beyond the 15-year limit, so it will be very interesting to hear what is said about that.
The other issue, which is an important one, is about practicalities, of which the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, spoke. I talked to the Electoral Commission and it is clear that it wants to have the longest possible lead time, so the sooner the Government decide to accept this amendment the better from the point of view of the commission. I am sure that they will do it eventually. MPs keep telling me that they will, so it is just a question of not leaving it too long. It is also true that we have the hard evidence of what happened in Scotland. The extension of the franchise to 16 and 17 year-olds proceeded remarkably easily, so there is no technical difficulty there.
I am intrigued to hear constant references to the difficulties of piecemeal changes to our constitution. The Government are about to change the relationship between the two Houses, if they can get away with it. That is what they are doing today. If that is not a constitutional change, what is? Then, what about EVEL—English Votes for English Laws? That is piecemeal. I thought that the Conservatives were actually in favour of incremental changes to our constitution. My study of history was that that was what Disraeli was all about—and very clever he was at it. So it is not an appropriate argument in this case to say that we cannot do this because it is not the ripe time—the doctrine of ripe time. That is what our ancestors in this very House argued right through the 19th century. I shall come back to that in a moment.
Lord Collins of Highbury
Well then, good, but I still think that people need an answer to that question. People are moving to obtain British citizenship and we have to be clear on the consequences of this.
This debate has been really interesting in highlighting how people see what being a British citizen is about. We will come on to this in the next group, so I do not want to do so now, but if we are to use the Westminster franchise—and there are good reasons for doing so, not least that if people have resided here for longer than five years, they have the opportunity to apply for British citizenship and therefore obtain the vote—we may see a big rush in those circumstances. The Minister has the responsibility for giving a clear reason why those people who have worked and lived in this country for a substantial time will not be able to vote on something which will clearly affect their futures in this country.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, Amendment 10, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, and Amendment 13, in their names and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, and the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, would extend the franchise to EU citizens who had resided in the United Kingdom for five years or more. Amendment 15, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Liddle and Lord Davies of Stamford, would also extend the franchise to EU citizens but would not impose a minimum time period for residency in the United Kingdom.
As has been pointed out, many EU citizens have made the United Kingdom their home and made significant contributions to life in this country. No one would wish to deny that but this is of course a vote about the future of the United Kingdom in Europe, so we say that it is right to use the parliamentary franchise as the basis. As my noble friend Lady Anelay explained at Second Reading, we are following the standard practice across Europe. As far as we are aware, no other European member state extends the franchise for referendums to citizens of other states—and there have been many such votes over the last four decades.
The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, spoke about the exceptional circumstances of this poll. This is an exceptional poll in some respects but it is not the only one with significant constitutional ramifications. Referendums in Europe have dealt with the ratification of EU treaties or the currency that a nation should use. These are not trivial issues, albeit that the noble Lord described them as less consequential. Even so, it is said that this is different as it deals with membership. But there have in effect been other in/out referendums: 17 EU member states held referendums about whether to accede to the European Union. Most recently, the Croatian people were asked in 2012. Others have voted not to, including Norway, while in 2013 the people of San Marino voted not even to apply. So far as we can tell, not a single one of those extended the decision to citizens of other states.
Noble Lords in effect suggested that the franchise should extend to include those EU citizens because they are affected by the results of the vote. This argument has its attractions but I respectfully suggest that it does not withstand careful scrutiny. First, why should this test apply only to EU citizens? Yes, the large French community in Kensington or the Portuguese in Stockwell will be impacted to some extent by the decision, but why should it stop at the United Kingdom borders? Surely Spanish citizens in Madrid would feel the effects of Britain leaving, as would the Maltese in Valetta or the Poles in Warsaw. The United Kingdom is a major global power and the EU is the world’s largest market with a population of over 500 million. If the United Kingdom left, a great many people around Europe would be affected to a greater or lesser extent. That hardly means they should all get a vote. Let me respectfully suggest that it is not enough simply to look at who is affected by a vote in order to decide who should take part. Furthermore, the United Kingdom would feel quite deeply the impact of further enlargement of the European Union. That does not mean that in future United Kingdom citizens should be able to vote in an accession referendum in Turkey or Albania or anywhere else that might join the European Union. We need to start elsewhere. That is why the Government brought forward proposals building on the general election franchise and that is the appropriate starting point for a decision of this kind.
As for the five-year residency threshold, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, propose in Amendment 13 that it should be given to those who have resided in the United Kingdom for five years or more. This is a much more nuanced amendment than the other one. I wholly understand the noble Lord’s intention for this five-year threshold. No doubt many EU citizens who have settled here for many years feel a connection to the United Kingdom and the noble Lord is saying that we should give them a vote in the poll. Of course the longest resident requirement for EU citizens in order to qualify to apply for British citizenship is five years of lawful residence. After being free of immigration time restrictions for 12 months, an EU national can then apply for naturalisation to become a British citizen. So many EU nationals who meet the noble Lord’s threshold will be able, and have chosen, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, pointed out, to take up British citizenship. I am sure many choose not to but that does not undermine the point that the option is open to them. Secondly, I draw attention to the practicality of identifying those who fall within the threshold. The franchise for local elections does not include any time limits on residency. Implementing such a limit would therefore be much more complex and time-consuming than simply using the local election franchise.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies, suggested it is unfair to exclude EU citizens when those from Malta, Cyprus or Ireland are included. I respectfully do not believe there is any actual inconsistency here. The inclusion of these three member states is not related to their position in the European Union. It is because Malta and Cyprus are part of the Commonwealth and there is a history of reciprocal voting rights, as between the United Kingdom and Ireland. The inclusion of Commonwealth and Irish citizens in the Westminster franchise is a long-standing part of the country’s constitution and it reflects the historical ties shared between the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. This is a legacy of the Representation of the People Act 1918—the same legislation that extended the vote to women. We could hardly include some Commonwealth citizens and not others in the franchise. Of course there is a requirement of residency; I need hardly say. It would not be right to start unpicking the constitutional relationship between the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth.
Finally, noble Lords will want to reflect very carefully on how this change would look to the public. I entirely accept the point the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made that this is not intended to affect the Westminster franchise but I return to the point that I made in relation to the first group of amendments, a point also made by my noble friend Lord Ridley. It is of fundamental importance that this vote is not just fair but seen to be fair. To appear, however innocently and whatever the reality behind the reasons, to be altering the franchise to change the result in some way risks undermining the effectiveness of the referendum. No doubt partly for these reasons, the proposals to include EU citizens in the franchise were rejected by large majorities in the House of Commons.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, asked whether I could help the House with how many EU citizens were actually on the electoral register. The statistic I have is that there are approximately 2.7 million EU-born citizens resident in the United Kingdom. The source for that is the World Bank’s estimate of migrant stocks in 2010, as updated by the UN Department of Social and Economic Affairs in 2013. I will endeavour to answer that question between now and Report; how successful I will be, I am not sure, but I will certainly endeavour to do so.
I was also asked what would be the consequences for EU nationals were the referendum to result in the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. As the House will know, the Government are confident that they will successfully negotiate a change in the relationship with the European Union and that the Prime Minister will then ask the country to confirm that we should remain a member of the European Union—albeit on somewhat changed terms. So what might happen to these EU citizens is entirely a hypothetical question, but noble Lords may well conclude that it is most unlikely that they would simply be cast loose, as it were, as is suggested.
Lord Higgins
I have been listening very carefully to the debate. Perhaps I may leave a thought with my noble friend. If the unfortunate circumstances arose where it turned out that the result was determined by this particular group or an accumulation of groups which have been controversial, that would obviously raise the question of whether the vote was valid in some people’s minds. Is it not therefore important that we should have a very clear definition of what majority is needed to deal with this situation?
Lord Faulks
I think my noble friend is referring to the possibility of some form of threshold. That is not part of the Government’s intention by the Bill. The point he alludes to is important, which is the risk, at least, that if EU nationals are given the right to vote—however cogent the reasons may be because of their participation in our national life—and the vote results by a narrow majority in our staying in Europe, the result of the vote may not command the same confidence that I am sure that all in your Lordships’ House want the referendum to command. In those circumstances, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
I deeply apologise if while the Chief Whip was talking to me I missed the Minister’s response, but I specifically tabled Amendment 18 on what work would be necessary and briefly spoke to it. Perhaps the Minister might be kind enough to address that; otherwise I will need to regroup my amendment with Amendment 14 next Monday.
Lord Faulks
I fear that in order to get a really adequate answer, the noble Baroness may have to regroup her amendment. I endeavoured to say that what might happen to EU nationals was a matter of hypothesis which I fear that the Government are not prepared to go into at this stage.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
I am most grateful to the Minister for having responded in such a thoughtful way to this amendment, although I have to say that in earlier parts of his statement, I thought he was tempted back again to the reductio ad absurdum he employed on the previous group of amendments. However, we moved on to better ground and he addressed some of the arguments very well. He was very careful, though some others in this debate have been less careful, not to predict that we would know who voted in which way in the referendum, and be able to say, “It was the foreigners that did it”. Other Members of this House seem not to know that we have a secret ballot, but we do.
Lord Collins of Highbury
I did. I spoke to my noble and learned friend over the weekend and made it clear that we would not support these amendments, for the reasons that I am now stating. I do not want to delay the Committee any longer. Noble Lords have made their points, and the Minister talked about the arrangements since 1918. We have also made the point about the Good Friday agreement and the impact on that. I would be very keen to hear the Minister’s view about the impact on that agreement, and what the amendments might do to it.
I come back to the basic point that we need a debate. I hope that the report by my noble and learned friend will be reopened and reconsidered so that we have a debate. However, my noble and learned friend was not saying that we should take away people’s current entitlement. That is why the amendments cannot be supported.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, the purpose of these two amendments is to restrict the franchise for the EU referendum so as to prevent Commonwealth citizens who are the citizens of a country mentioned in Schedule 3 to the British Nationality Act 1981, and Irish citizens who are resident in the UK, from voting. As the Committee will be aware, this referendum will use the franchise for parliamentary elections, which includes this category of Commonwealth citizens—for example, citizens of Australia, New Zealand, India and Kenya—and Irish citizens who are resident in the UK.
This is fair and consistent with the precedents Parliament has previously agreed. For example, this franchise was used for the UK alternative vote referendum in 2011. It is also the franchise set out in the European Union Act 2011, which some noble Lords may remember, which provided for a referendum in the event of transfer of powers and competencies in certain circumstances. It was initially opposed by the Labour Party, but then, I think, there was a change of heart and Labour decided to support the legislation after it had been passed.
The Representation of the People Act 1983 refers to those entitled to vote at United Kingdom parliamentary elections. They include resident Commonwealth citizens and citizens of the Republic of Ireland. “Commonwealth citizens” is a wide term. The categories of persons who fall within the definition of “Commonwealth citizens” are set out at Section 37 of the British Nationality Act 1981. Commonwealth citizens include British citizens as well as those with other types of British nationality, including, for example, British Overseas Territories citizens and British subjects, as well as citizens of those countries listed in Schedule 3 to the Act.
The Act also sets out that, in order to be entitled to register to vote, a Commonwealth citizen must either have leave to enter the United Kingdom or to remain under the Immigration Act 1971, or not require such leave. Citizenship of the country of residence is the normal prerequisite for the right to vote in the elections of that country in most democracies. However, the rights of Irish citizens, and this particular category of Commonwealth citizens, in the United Kingdom are slightly different.
The reason for granting Commonwealth citizens and Irish citizens the entitlement to vote and stand in United Kingdom parliamentary elections lies, as a number of noble Lords have said, in the historical ties we share—as the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, pointed out. In the past, citizens of Commonwealth countries and Ireland were British subjects. As countries have attained independence, the rules on franchise have been maintained and updated. In the case of Ireland, there is a long-standing agreement of reciprocity of voting rights between the UK and Ireland.
When the British Nationality Act 1981 came into force the then Government gave an undertaking to preserve certain rights of Commonwealth citizens resident here, and this included the right to vote. I should remind the House that at a conference held in 1947, the United Kingdom and the Dominions agreed that each should recognise the others’ freedom to devise their own nationality laws, but that all persons identified by such laws as citizens should continue to hold the common status of British subject. Ireland also took part in that conference and a special status was laid down for the benefit of its citizens.
It was agreed that citizens of one country of the Commonwealth who were resident in another country should, within the limits of the new citizenship system and as far as local conditions allow, be given all the rights possessed by citizens of the country in which they are resident. As I have already pointed out, Malta and Cyprus are EU member states but are also members of the Commonwealth and, if they meet the requirements that apply to Commonwealth citizens, they can vote.
On the occasions when it has considered the issue of Commonwealth and Irish citizens’ voting rights—I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Green, said that it was not considered when the matter went through the other place—Parliament has taken the view that this should not be changed. We say that the referendum is not the place to disturb this franchise. There has been reference to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, said in 2008 in his citizenship review. I had understood that the passage quoted by the noble Lord, Lord Green, suggested that it was right in principle not to give the right to citizens of other countries until they became UK citizens. That ought to be seen in the context of a wider debate about what it means to be a United Kingdom citizen. I am not suggesting that any vote should be taken away from those who already have a vote for those long-historical reasons. However, it is a view that he has extended by saying that he supports the amendment, and perhaps we will hear his views on Report on that matter. He is entitled to have them. There are strong, historic reasons which we say mean that we should maintain a historic connection and a historic franchise.
Suggestions have been made, both inside and outside Parliament, that one franchise or another would influence the vote in this referendum. I entirely agree—at the risk of repetition—with all those who have said, whether fanciful or not, that any suggestion of changing the franchise might be to the effect of altering the result and needs to be avoided. The referendum should command support. I remain of the view that we should maintain our parliamentary franchise for the EU referendum and continue to include Commonwealth citizens of the countries listed in Schedule 3 to the British Nationality Act 1981 and Irish citizens as part of this.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Can my noble friend confirm, so that we are clear, the position with respect to referenda held in Ireland? Would British citizens living in Ireland be entitled to vote in Irish referenda or not?
Lord Faulks
I do not believe they would, but in case that is not an accurate answer I will correct it.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
If that is the case, what does reciprocity mean in this context?
Lord Faulks
Yes. There is reciprocity. If a British citizen lives in Ireland they have the right to vote there, but not in a referendum. The position is, therefore, that there are long-historical links. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, asked a question which I cannot answer now. However, I shall endeavour to provide the answer in due course. The amendments have once again provoked an interesting debate, but in the final analysis I suggest that we should stick to the parliamentary franchise, and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Green of Deddington
I thank noble Lords. It is late enough. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.