16:10 - Division on Amendment 53 - Ayes: 130 / Noes: 175 - Amendment 53 disagreed.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)
My Lords, I made clear my support for the Government when I spoke on Amendment 23. Therefore, it will not surprise the House that I have some difficulty with the thinking behind this group of amendments. I shall not repeat my philosophical concerns, but where the matter comes to a sharp point is the position on overstaying and illegal migrants. We need to enforce immigration law. There is public concern about it. If we delay taking action, that public concern will increase and give rise to perhaps nastier people trying to ride that particular issue and gain publicity from it. I am interested in hearing how we minimise delays in moving this part of the legislation forward. When I heard the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, introduce Amendment 25 and how it could lead to a need for further primary legislation, it seemed to me that that could be a means by which the measure could be stopped altogether and the whole proposal would sink with all hands.
To a lesser extent, I have the same problem with the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Hamwee, which seems to add another cycle into the consideration of an issue which is very high on the public agenda. If we fail to address it, we will probably regret not having done so. I hope that my noble friend, as he has on other occasions having made concessions, will stick to his guns and make sure that we can move this secondary legislation forward in the very near future.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con)
My Lords, we have discussed at length and, I hope, to some good ends the important objective of this part of the Bill. I want to restate some of the background for the benefit of the House.
We are seeking in this Bill to control illegal migrant access to the private rented sector, because we have listened carefully to the public’s concern about the need to prevent illegal immigration. That follows on very neatly from the contribution of my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. To this end, the Government are committed to remaining firm on border controls, but we can provide a complete response to illegal immigration only if we work in partnership with those offering employment, housing and other services to deny the practical means of remaining to those without permission to stay.
The landlord provisions have been carefully drafted to deliver a scheme which works, which defines the differing responsibilities of landlord, agent and tenant, and which provides clear, robust safeguards for both landlords and vulnerable groups in need of accommodation. The drafting mirrors the existing civil penalty scheme for employers of illegal workers, which we know works well in practice. The proposed opposition amendment would sweep away these carefully constructed clauses and replace them with a pilot provision lacking the necessary detail and clarity.
I understand the desire of noble Lords to ensure that the landlords scheme is “workable” and that the provisions are tested and carefully evaluated. Indeed, it is our intention to adopt a carefully phased approach to implementation and to ensure that we get the guidance and support services absolutely right before considering wider implementation beyond the first phase. As we have made clear, decisions on further implementation will be taken after the general election during the next Parliament. I should make it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that we need no further incentive to get this right than to deliver a policy which we consider is important for the control of illegal immigration to this country.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Hamwee for tabling her Amendment 24. The Government have given a commitment to a carefully managed, phased implementation of the landlords scheme. The scheme will be implemented initially, as has been said by noble Lords, following on from commitments that I have already made, in a single geographical area, and the Government have committed to a full evaluation of the first phase. Any decisions on a wider rollout will be taken in the light of the evaluation after the general election during the next Parliament.
My noble friend’s amendment is intended to be supportive, and I have considerable sympathy with the objectives behind it—my noble friend seeks reassurance on issues that I know concern her. As the House will know, I have been discussing the landlord provisions with my noble friend Lady Hamwee, the noble Lord, Lord Best, and a number of expert groups, including the Residential Landlords Association, Crisis and the British Property Federation. I completely share their concern that the scheme should be introduced carefully, with the benefit of advice and input from expert groups.
I can therefore inform the House that, following these discussions and in the light of the contributions that noble Lords across the House have made in debates on these provisions, we have decided to convene a formal consultative panel to oversee the operation and evaluation of the first phase. It will be chaired by a Home Office Minister. The panel will be established within the next few months and its full composition will be finalised once a decision has been reached on the location of the initial phase—we need local knowledge to support the group. I have invited the noble Lord, Lord Best, and a number of groups to join the panel. It will also include local representatives from the area covered by the trial. The panel will provide transparency, objectivity and the necessary degree of expert input for the first phase, the location of which will be determined and published before the House rises for the summer.
We expect to announce the location for the first phase at that time and will then indicate the principal proposed themes for the evaluation, leaving it to the panel to lead work on the development of specific evaluation measures and metrics. Of course, there are obvious areas that it would be sensible for any proper valuation to cover, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, made clear in her contribution, including the ease with which landlords and tenants can comply with the new checks and access the necessary guidance and support services. I hope that I can reassure the House that one objective of such an evaluation is to eliminate any impact on vulnerable groups or the incidence of unlawful racial discrimination by landlords. The desired objective, which lies at the bottom of the whole policy, is to deny rented accommodation to illegal migrants.
However, Amendment 25, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, would remove the framework from primary legislation altogether and place it wholly in secondary legislation, lessening the degree of parliamentary oversight. That simply ignores the fact that the provisions have enjoyed the closest scrutiny in this Parliament. We have, as far as possible, placed details of the proposed scheme in the primary legislation, reserving the use of regulation-making powers only where necessary. The amendment would not provide a clear legal basis to operate new landlord duties, even as a pilot. It provides no mechanism for landlords to object or appeal against a penalty, rendering the new clause incompatible with human rights law. Neither does it provide transparency in the type of tenancy agreement to be exempt from the checking requirement.
The Bill makes those provisions clear in primary legislation, in the interest of providing certainty for vulnerable groups. The Government have worked closely with bodies representing landlords, students, the homeless and vulnerable and provided important safeguards in primary legislation. It would be understandable if they were concerned if those safeguards were no longer enshrined in primary legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will know that the negative procedure provides for further scrutiny before any further rollout of the scheme.
The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked specifically about lodgers of social tenants. A social tenant who takes a lodger will be a landlord for the purposes of the scheme. The Home Office will work with social landlords to help their tenants understand their obligations.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
The reason I raised the matter was to ensure that lodgers were included as part of the evaluation and, going back to the question of vulnerable groups, that children were specifically considered.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I hope that I made that clear. I think that the record will show that I said that that would form part of the evaluation.
Let us not forget that the amendment proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, on which we have not yet voted, but which I think the whole House welcomes, puts the welfare of children at the centre of the Bill in all considerations. So what I am saying includes children and vulnerable groups as part of the evaluation of the scheme. That is part of making it effective. I hope that that reassures my noble friend Lady Benjamin as well. Those with outstanding in-time applications will be allowed to rent. I have written to her on many points that she has rightly raised on behalf of an important sector of vulnerable people. I thank her for her correspondence.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
“(6) The code (or revised code)—
(a) may not be issued unless a draft has been laid before Parliament, and(b) comes into force in accordance with provision made by order of the Secretary of State.”
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, these amendments have been tabled in the light of comments made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The committee recommended that the code regarding the prevention of discrimination should be laid before Parliament and then brought into force by negative resolution order. The Government accept this recommendation.
In relation to the code regarding general matters, the committee considered that this should be subject to no less a degree of parliamentary scrutiny than that which applies to the equivalent code relating to the employers’ civil penalty scheme. The committee further suggested that this code should be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. We considered this carefully, but concluded that the negative resolution procedure would provide the appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny. We have discussed this to some degree in the previous amendments. This code will provide technical guidance on matters of interpretation and practical operation, such as factors to be taken into account in establishing whether a residential tenancy agreement grants a right of occupation as a main and only place of residence and the factors to be taken into account in calculating the amount of a penalty that a landlord or agent should be liable to pay.
This is analogous to the equivalent code of practice relating to illegal working, which is brought into force by the negative procedure. For these reasons the Government believe that the new code should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in a consistent manner. The amendment has been tabled accordingly. I beg to move.
Lord Rosser
I have only one brief comment to make; indeed, the Minister has already touched on it with his comment about the suggestions that have been made, in at least one case, that the affirmative procedure would be more appropriate. I am not quite sure why the Minister is arguing that he thinks that the negative procedure would be equally effective. If the Government believe that the negative procedure is just as effective as the affirmative procedure presumably they see no distinction between the two. Clearly there is a distinction. Clearly Parliament believes that the affirmative procedure is a more effective one, since it requires an affirmative resolution by Parliament in support of the proposition that the Government have made. Can the Minister put forward a more convincing argument than he has as to why they will not accept that it should be by affirmative procedure and why they think it should be by negative procedure?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I suppose we could argue about this for quite a long time if we chose to. I laid out consistency with the employers’ regulations, which are very similar in content. As I mentioned in the previous debate, the thing about the negative procedure is that it is open to any Member to bring the subject matter to debate in this House. Parliamentary scrutiny is not overridden. My hope is that it will be possible, by the time we get to this phase, that we will indeed have a situation where the House is well informed with the issues involved, well informed with the evaluation of the scheme, and well informed of the way in which the scheme is intending to work. I believe that at that point government and Parliament will be confident that they can proceed and that proper scrutiny has been provided. One would have to say that this has been very carefully considered by the Government and we have come to the conclusion that the negative procedure is the appropriate form of introducing this statutory instrument.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I agree that this is a very useful opportunity to inform the House of where we are on this issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, will understand that the provisions in the Bill are one thing and the wider provisions for implementing health service charging are another. We had a really useful meeting with my noble friend Lord Howe where a number of noble Lords present came to talk about this issue. I think noble Lords will agree he is very much focused on the full implications of any changes. I reassure the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, that Médecins du Monde corresponds with me on a fairly regular basis so I know what its concerns are and unfortunately it was not at the meeting with the noble Earl, Lord Howe. If it had been I think it would have understood better the way in which the health service reforms were being taken forward. The other thing which it would certainly have picked up is that it is absolutely clear that treatment for infectious public health conditions is free to all and will remain so. We should just make that clear; I hope that it reassures my noble friend Lady Williams and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham.
As we discussed at length when we were talking about this issue, any exemptions from the NHS charging of short-term visitors and illegal migrants are not really a matter for the Home Office. This is not a provision that is being enacted in the Bill and is not a question on which the Home Office would make a decision. Exemptions are a matter for the Department of Health. I know that they are being considered very sensitively. Let us not forget that, within the devolved remit, while there is one United Kingdom for immigration purposes there are four national health services within the United Kingdom. It is not for me from this Dispatch Box to speak on their behalf. I have no wish to cause a constitutional crisis by inadvertently taking over responsibilities for which I have no responsibility.
My noble friend Lord Howe has agreed to meet again with noble Lords. I think that everybody felt that that was a helpful meeting. I want to keep everybody in the loop; I can act as a facilitator in this respect. When my noble friend’s department has developed more detailed proposals for reforming NHS overseas visitor charging arrangements—and it is that charging which is being looked at in particular, for people on short visits here—this will provide the appropriate time and context for discussions on the NHS charging arrangements for these groups.
Going back to the beginning, I confirm that treatment for infectious public health conditions is free for all and will remain so. I hope that that is a big reassurance. Given that reassurance, alongside our existing commitment that GP and nurse consultations will remain free to all and that that is not limited to the first consultation, I hope that the noble Baroness will indeed withdraw her amendment. I look forward to having further discussions with her and my noble friend Lord Howe in the future.
Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, I thank the Minister and all who have supported the amendment. What is confusing is that Clauses 37 and 38 cover the new charges and restrictions of healthcare access in this Bill. Therefore, it is surely an immigration and health matter. Therefore, unless there is a combination working together on this complex matter, there will be confusion and people may fall through the net. I hope that I have helped to get the message across that public health and protection are vital, especially when dealing with vulnerable people. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)
My Lords, I have enormous sympathy with the intention of this amendment. It is entirely wrong that local people in particular, but also many other people resident in this country, should be bypassed in the recruitment process and not even have the opportunity to seek work. I declare an interest as chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission already referred to. We have done some work in the past on the meat-processing industry, where such practices were found—not prevalent, but found. We intend also to do some work on the cleaning industry.
However, I am not sure that the amendment as it stands will address the problem adequately. That is to say, it refers to recruitment agencies located in this country. It could very readily be bypassed simply by subcontracting with recruitment agencies elsewhere. Also, there are occasions where we wish to enable employers to recruit overseas exclusively. Think of schools that seek native speakers to teach French. They probably want to be able to advertise in France, to French students, and we do not wish to prohibit that. I will just echo the point that, if the Minister thinks something can be done, it will not be through this amendment as it stands. However, the avoidance of both unfair discrimination and the appearance of it is surely an important issue.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My Lords, I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has brought this back, and it has been very useful to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, about her take on this issue. She raises some of the subtle things at the edge of any blanket restriction that might be made.
I said right at the beginning when we debated this issue in Committee that the Opposition and the Government are not very far apart at all in this area. It is a matter of time and place rather than the detail of the amendment. I think the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, accepts that the amendment may not be quite perfect. I cannot commit to come back on this issue at Third Reading. There is likely to be an announcement very shortly on this whole issue, so it would be more appropriate to wait until that announcement has been made, as it will make clear what the Government’s position is. I do not think that the Opposition or any other noble Lords will find themselves very far from the Government on this issue.
To look at where we are, the Government are committed to protecting the rights of UK workers. We have said that, and as I said in Committee, the Government have already taken tougher action against abuse of the national minimum wage, both as regards its enforcement and by increasing the financial penalty for breaches. We are taking a more robust approach to the employers of illegal workers, including through a doubling of the maximum civil penalty to £20,000, which has now been approved by both Houses.
We are ensuring greater collaboration across Government to increase our “enforcement reach” and the range of sanctions that can be brought to bear against exploitative employment practices. Furthermore, the Government have commissioned a report by the Migration Advisory Committee into the causes of low-skilled migration and its social impacts.
That is why we are trying to look at the bigger picture. The amendment identifies a particular problem—and I acknowledge that it is a problem—but there is a bigger picture: why is so much of migration into this country in low-skilled jobs? We know that the social impacts of this cause concern across wider communities. We are taking action to prevent abuse of our public services and benefits systems by migrants, including those who come from the European Economic Area. As I have said previously, employment levels have risen, since this Government came into office, by 1.3 million, of which 78% is accounted for by UK nationals. However, I recognise there is a problem with a small number of unscrupulous employment agencies that source labour exclusively from overseas, particularly eastern Europe, and subject their workers to exploitative conditions. We have to acknowledge that.
We are sympathetic to the intentions behind this amendment but, as it stands, it would not achieve its aims at all. It will need very careful review because an agency could evade its scope and be in the clear simply by signing up a single UK recruit. That will not address the problem which the noble Lord has brought to the attention of the House. The ordinary residence test is very weak and easy to pass. However, more does need to be done to tackle such unfair recruitment practices, a view which I think noble Lords generally share. Ministers are actively considering how best to protect British workers from this type of discrimination and, as I have said, the House may expect announcements to be made very shortly on this issue. In the light of the points I have made, I hope the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Rosser
I am disappointed by the Minister’s reply. In Committee, he said that,
“more should be done to tackle these types of unfair recruitment practices. Ministers will actively consider how best to protect British workers from this type of discrimination and we will seek to bring forward proposals shortly”.—[Official Report, 17/3/14; col. 19.]
We do not seem to have made any progress at all. The Minister is clearly not prepared to pick up what was inherent in my suggestion: that I would be happy to withdraw my amendment if he gave a commitment to come back with the Government’s own amendment at Third Reading.