The Minister for Security (Tom Tugendhat)

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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Tom Tugendhat

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I am absolutely shocked that the hon. Gentleman is not an avid follower of the Tonbridge Angels.

The Minister for Security (Tom Tugendhat)

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It is a huge honour to be here under your chairship, Madam Deputy Speaker, and a huge pleasure to speak about a Bill on what I must admit is not what I would have immediately thought was my specialist subject.

Tom Tugendhat

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Hang on—that is a bit harsh. The Bill raises very important security considerations, so it has been an enormous pleasure to read about the Bill and the impressive work done by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan). The debate has shown quite simply that the passion in the House for what has always been known as the beautiful game twins with the passion for it in our country. Though it does not always attract the affections of everybody in the Chamber—I know that I disappoint some in the Tonbridge Angels when I say that, though many other sports clubs are obviously spared the pain of my support—it really does bring people together. When travelling or serving overseas, I was often touched by the fact that a community of Brits from any part of our country could immediately find an easy conversation and bond over various football teams, which some may support and others may vigorously and majestically oppose. I do not know why I find myself looking at my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble (Katherine Fletcher), as a Manchester United fan, but for some reason Manchester United seemed to come up quite a lot as a divisive subject.

Tom Tugendhat

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Funnily enough, I agree that it is something I have witnessed; I have always struggled to join the conversation. I recently found myself in New York at the funeral of Henry Kissinger, and a few people there were discussing his passion for Arsenal football club and asked me about the latest season in London football. I have to confess that I found myself slightly wanting for words, but it was an environment in which many others were able to supply them, so I was delighted to stay silent as the prowess of the various football teams was discussed. As we are discussing Arsenal, among the research I have been doing into the Bill, it turns out that Cardiff City won the FA cup in 1927 by beating Arsenal, which is a remarkable achievement.

Tom Tugendhat

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One-nil. I believe Hughie Ferguson was the goal scorer—there you go; it’s amazing what you can get help with if you ask the right questions, isn’t it? That game was on St George’s day as well. How is that for a triple? It is absolutely true that football binds people together around the world. The number of conversations that one can have travelling and meeting Heads of State, Heads of Government, Ministers, officials—and, indeed, taxi drivers and folk around the world—is extraordinary, because football really does unite. That is why the Bill is so important.

I will start with one of the points raised by the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) raised, when he asked, “Why does this apply only to football and not other sports?” The reality is that football is hugely dominant in terms of sporting appearances and interest in the United Kingdom. It is clear that, over the past few decades, football has dominated that sporting appeal for spectators. It has been so dominant and, sadly, that has caused problems. I do not want to blame fans—that would not be right—but when large crowds gather, there are challenges with managing those crowds. Sadly, other sports are yet to attract quite the same interest.

Tom Tugendhat

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I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point; I will certainly look into it. I will ensure that we have a proper scrub of other sporting events that might qualify. The point I was making was that the vast majority of such situations are football events, but he is right that there are standalone sporting events, like Aintree, that attract huge crowds as a one-off. I was delighted to be at the fantastic Market Rasen ground and at Lingfield not long ago, but the reality is that the crowds were not quite the same. It is not quite the same pressure that my hon. Friend describes, but I take his point and he is right to make it.

The hon. Member for Cardiff West has made an extraordinary effort to bring together hon. Members from across the House and to ensure that previous work is summarised into this short Bill to keep fans safe. I am very grateful that he has done that because, as Members have demonstrated, the words he has chosen have reached across the House and united people. When we think about our own sporting events, we know that those precious moments of family time can be threatened by individuals who might disrupt them.

The hon. Gentleman carefully made the point that automatic bans are not within the scope of the Bill. Such bans can be issued only by courts following a conviction for a football-related offence and are covered by other legislation. In reality, the Bill is constrained. As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said, the key to good legislation is to write it in a way that works—not so that it expands—and this is a tight piece of legislation that does exactly what it is supposed do.

The Bill will not do some of the things that were feared. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble raised a question about whether it would criminalise those who were in possession of a valid ticket, as she was in her leapfrogging days. It certainly will not do that. Those who are in possession of a valid ticket are free to enter a ground and should be able to access the ground. The fact that the turnstile does not work really is a test of her athletics, not of the law. I am delighted to say that I have no doubt that she would vault it again were the same situation to arise.

A question was asked about whether an offence is committed only if a person is attempting to attend a football match. The Bill does not cover those trying to get into pubs or car parks unless they are part of the controlled zone. As we all know, some football stadiums have a controlled zone; others do not. Anybody who has been to the Army and Navy rugby match will know that the car park is the most important part of that controlled zone. In fact, I have had the great privilege over many years of attending the Army and Navy rugby match—I have been on half a dozen to a dozen occasions—and in that time I am proud to say that I have watched 15 minutes of rugby in total. Although I should acknowledge that it is a security nightmare, it is the most extraordinary reunion and the car park of Twickenham stadium becomes a gathering of people who have not seen each other since Iraq, Afghanistan or wherever it might be. It is extraordinary how many formerly terrifying sergeants major or generals seem to be somewhat more friendly shortly before kick-off—I am sure it has absolutely nothing to do with extremely generous sponsorship of Pimm’s, Greene King or any of the other suppliers who ensure those events go with the passion and drive hon. Members would anticipate.

Tom Tugendhat

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At the risk of being corrected by officials, I am going to say that clearly this is about the match ticket, not about the car park ticket. The reason is that the match ticket allows access to the stadium—to the event—and that is what is being criminalised. The access to the car park, as long as it is not within the controlled zone or an area that would otherwise be impermissible without a match ticket, is not covered by the Bill. A car park ticket can usually, mostly, be bought later. In this circumstance, we are not seeking to criminalise that. We are seeking to make sure that the Bill allows those who have a valid right of access to the event to get into the event without allowing those who think they have grounds for disruption, tailgating or whatever it may be to exploit a loophole in the law to get away with jumping over a wall, pushing through turnstiles or whatever it may be.

Tom Tugendhat

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I would be delighted to take up my hon. Friend’s invitation. I have never seen football played in Bradford—

Tom Tugendhat

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I will ignore the contribution from the hon. Member for Cardiff West, who is very disparaging about Bradford City. I am sure Bradford City would offer a fantastic afternoon and I would very much enjoy it. I simply cannot believe that my hon. Friend would not be backing a winner, given his reputation, so I will stay silent on that accusation.

The Bill deliberately does not go into car parking. As my hon. Friend will be well aware, in many areas car parking is very different. Some stadiums have car parking available and some have car parking on the street or in neighbouring car parks which would be covered by local government ordinances and so on. It would add complication and not clarity to the Bill. To his eternal point, Occam’s razor is to get to the heart of the matter; he would rightly be the first critic of any Bill that started to be expansive and to look like it might include supermarket car parks, or indeed any other kind of car park. That is why the Bill is written and drafted as tightly as it is, and why so many of us support it—the Bill has given us the space to focus on that part of the offence that is actually important.

The Bill has been very carefully drafted to set out this new offence of unauthorised entry or attempted unauthorised entry to designated football matches in England and Wales. In practice, “designated football matches” really means elite football matches. For these purposes, that does include Manchester United—[Laughter.] The Bill will also enable a court to impose a football banning order against a person convicted of this offence. Banning orders provide an effective tool to combat football-related disorder by preventing disruptive individuals from attending regulated matches for between three and 10 years.

I would like to pay my own tribute to Baroness Casey and her extraordinary work, not just on this issue, but in reforming and reviewing various other aspects of our national life that have required attention. Her independent review of the appalling disorder that occurred during the Euro 2020 final resulted in a clear recommendation that action needed to be taken to deter the practice of tailgating, which is the phenomenon that we have been covering of a ticketless person following a legitimate entrant into the stadium. Of course, the Bill is drafted in this way because tailgating is not the only problematic behaviour.

There are many other routes to attempted entry into football matches, such as jumping over walls, which we have seen at some stadiums, or hanging down from buildings and jumping through windows—we have occasionally seen videos of that happening abroad. That is extremely concerning, not least because it can lead to enormous personal harm and can encourage people to take extremely unwise risks. It can also lead to a crush within the building that could cause harm not just to fans but to those working in the stadium. As we know, stadiums these days are major businesses, and many employ a large number of people on match days.

Estimates suggest that somewhere in the region of 3,000 to 5,000 England fans without tickets gained entry to the Euro 2020 final, largely through mass forced entry. Witnesses spoke of being terrified by their reckless and aggressive behaviour. Despite my own lack of passion in this regard, I have taken my children to football matches and have enjoyed the days with them. I must admit that my children were much more impressed with the games than I ever was, but I enjoyed the experience very much. The opportunity to see it through their eyes was a great blessing; I found it enormously warming.

Tom Tugendhat

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Thank you very much.

It would be concerning—this is why the Bill is so important—if football were closed off to families because people felt threatened and wished to keep their kids away from such events.

Tom Tugendhat

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Exactly—my hon. Friend correctly points out that they used to be. I suspect that that is one of the reasons we were not encouraged to attend when I was a child, despite my uncle’s great passion for Tottenham Hotspur. In fact, happy birthday to him. It is his birthday today—he is in the other place, so maybe if we shout loudly enough he will hear it.

The reality was that at that point in our national life, football was disrupted by significant violence. Indeed, some areas appeared to be almost lawless. I am very grateful not only to the Football Association but to police forces around the United Kingdom and the various organisations that contributed to making football safe. Even at the Tonbridge Angels, which is not traditionally a hotbed of dissent, the family welcome is remarkable—that is extremely important.

There are other unauthorised methods of entry at football matches, ranging from surreptitious entry—including, as the hon. Member for Cardiff West said, bribing club staff—to various forms of deception. I am therefore very pleased that the Bill seeks to make all forms of unauthorised or attempted entry an offence. That is eminently sensible, given that all attempts at unauthorised entry draw upon stadium security resources and can result in individuals with dangerous disruptive intent gaining access to the stadium and to spectators, and that overcrowding has health and safety risks and implications. This is therefore an important change in the law.

It is also right that the Bill includes not just the entrance points but the outer perimeter security. As the hon. Gentleman set out clearly, it is about preventing a concertina effect, whereby pressure on one area has repercussions on others. He is correct that the Bill sets out carefully why that is so.

We cannot tolerate decent, law-abiding football fans being left frightened or distressed, and neither would it be acceptable for football stadiums to become unsafe because of a selfish minority. The Government are clear that the safety of those attending sporting events is of the highest importance, and it is imperative that football fans are able to enjoy the sport safe in the knowledge that those who attempt to cause disorder will be dealt with swiftly. The Bill will help to achieve that, which is why we support it.

It is right and proper that those who engage in unacceptable criminal behaviour face the full force of the law, and the introduction of a new football-specific offence will send a deterrent message to would-be perpetrators. The measure enables the courts to impose football banning orders against offenders, and I remind the House that football banning orders have historically proved successful in preventing known troublemakers from continuing to offend, and in deterring others from offending. As such, the Government wholeheartedly support their use in the context of unauthorised entry to matches.

Tom Tugendhat

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Discretion is important at such moments. As my hon. Friend will be aware, Tonbridge Angels have recently bought a few new players. It is far too early for me to start picking the team, which is the manager’s job after all. He would not thank a Minister of the Crown for stepping on his hallowed turf.

It may be helpful for Members to be aware that both the police and the Football Association are similarly supportive of the Bill and have contributed helpfully.

Once again, I thank the hon. Member for Cardiff West for introducing the Bill. I also thank the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Alex Norris) and the Opposition for their approach. I hope the Bill sets an example that is adopted by other Assemblies, which seems appropriate given the importance of football in the national life of Scotland and Northern Ireland. I thank everyone who has contributed to this debate.

This important measure will ensure that the perpetrators of these disruptive and dangerous offences face justice, and it should provide a strong deterrent effect. I therefore join the hon. Member for Cardiff West in urging the House to get behind the Bill.

The Minister for Crime, Policing and Fire (Chris Philp)

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It is a pleasure, as always, to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Maria. I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff West on bringing forward this private Member’s Bill and for piloting it through its parliamentary stages with such aplomb and elan. His speech earlier describing the Bill and his amendment to it was comprehensive and accurate, so hon. Members will be relieved to hear that I do not think there is a great deal that I can usefully add to what he said.

All of us, on both sides of the Committee, share deep concern about what happened, particularly around the Euro 2020 finals, but that sort of practice did not just happen there; it is a more widespread problem. The measures in the Bill command the support of the police, the Football Association and the Premier League, so they will be welcomed by all those organisations and by football fans around the country. When football games are disrupted, it spoils the event for law-abiding members of the public going to see their team play, whether it is at Wembley, in Cardiff or anywhere else.

Given that the hon. Member for Cardiff West did such a good job explaining the provisions in the Bill, I do not want to test the Committee’s patience or indulgence by repeating what has already been said with such eloquence and flair. The Government fully support the Bill and are grateful to the hon. Member for his work. We look forward to seeing the Bill on the statute book and helping football fans across England and Wales to enjoy the fantastic national game.