Viscount Younger of Leckie
Main Page: Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative - Excepted Hereditary)Legacy of Northern Ireland’s Past
Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts
Baroness Suttie (LD) [V]
My Lords, I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, about not hearing the original Statement; it does make for a slightly peculiar debate, even remotely, as I am this evening. It is also regrettable that such an important issue is being discussed so late in the day.
It is now 18 months since renewed hope was given to the people of Northern Ireland through New Decade, New Approach in January last year. That was an approach agreed by the previous Conservative Government, the Irish Government and had broad support across the communities and parties of Northern Ireland. Last week’s Statement represents a dramatic and deeply unwelcome move away from the Stormont House agreement, with its approach of peace and reconciliation, towards a blanket amnesty that does not distinguish between those who broke the law and those who upheld it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has said, almost uniquely, last week’s Statement in the House of Commons by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland succeeded in uniting all five of Northern Ireland’s parties against these proposals.
These proposals are insulting to the victims and their families, across all communities and backgrounds, who have already waited so long to see justice and to be able to have closure. It would be interesting to know whether the Government can give a single example of when such an approach has ever succeeded in promoting a move towards genuine reconciliation. It is hard not to conclude that these proposals owe more to pressures from within the Conservative Party and certain elements of the media than to a genuine desire to deal with the legacy of the past and seek lasting peace and reconciliation.
The approach now adopted by the Government has introduced equivalence between all veterans, the vast majority of whom served the community with honour and respect for the rule of law, and terrorists, who deliberately sought to cause death. Justice and equality before the law are essential elements of trust in the law, which is a vital element of a path to reconciliation and moving on from the legacy of the troubled past.
Given the strength of opposition to these proposals in Northern Ireland, can the Minister say whether it remains the Government’s intention to impose this approach over the heads of Northern Ireland political parties and victims’ groups? Does he not fear that these proposals risk being seen as having no legitimacy and no credibility? Can he clarify their impact on inquests and ongoing investigations and prosecutions? Can he say whether the Government’s proposals apply only to Troubles-related deaths or to any other crime committed by members of proscribed terrorist organisations between 1968 and 1998? If an investigation concludes that an individual’s death was caused by a member of a proscribed organisation or a member of the security services, will the option to pursue the individual responsible via a civil claim also be closed off?
As Sir Jeffrey Donaldson MP put it so powerfully in the House of Commons last week:
“I want to take the path to reconciliation, but I cannot believe that the path to reconciliation is made easier when we sacrifice justice. The victims have to be at the centre of this, and I would urge the Secretary of State, in taking forward his proposals, to listen to their voices. This must be a victim-centred process; it cannot be at their expense.”—[Official Report, Commons, 14/7/21; col. 396.]
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Smith and Lady Suttie, for their comments and questions. I also particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, for her sensitive words about the victims, because of course they remain very much in our minds.
I echo the thoughts of both noble Baronesses about the way the House has to be at the moment and my inability to read out the Statement. I have echoed similar words before—I think it was on the Ballymurphy Statement—when I agreed with the comments made that it is often better to have the Statement read out, because it provides a sensitive and suitable base from which to discuss challenging issues.
As the Secretary of State set out last week in the other place, while Northern Ireland today is undoubtedly a fantastic place to live in, work in and visit, the unresolved legacy of the Troubles remains and casts a long shadow. We bear in mind that Northern Ireland is celebrating its centenary year; noble Lords may see that I am wearing the badge. However, the legacy continues to impact and permeate society in Northern Ireland, both for those who were directly involved and affected and those who were not but live with the trauma of previous generations.
It is now a painful reality that the focus on criminal investigations is increasingly unlikely to deliver successful criminal justice outcomes. More than two-thirds of Troubles-related deaths occurred more than 40 years ago, and it is increasingly difficult for the courts to provide families with the answers that they seek. Time is not on our side. If we do not act now, we will condemn current and, importantly, future generations to ongoing division and prevent the reconciliation needed for Northern Ireland to move forward.
That is why—to give a little bit of background—the Secretary of State published the Command Paper, which sets out, very briefly, the three key measures: the new independent body that would focus on the recovery and provision of information; a package of measures that includes a major oral history initiative, consistent with what was included in the Stormont House agreement; and, as has been mentioned, a statute of limitations to apply equally to all Troubles-related instances.
I want to try and address some of the questions raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, stated that there had been no engagement and particularly that there was no collective support. Okay, I note what she says. However, I point out to her that there was 18 months of preparation for this Statement, and we have indulged in a lot of engagement, particularly in recent months, with a range of groups. Part of the point of this Statement is that these proposals are leading to an intense and short period of engagement with all groups within Northern Ireland, including victims’ groups, to see how we can find a way forward. That is the honesty and the clarity for which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, was looking. We should be open about that.
Operation Kenova has proved to be valuable in terms of drawing out information about the Troubles, which we are looking to build on by drawing out reconciliation and bringing out historical information that we hope will provide some comfort to victims, should they wish this. However, part of the reason we have brought forward these proposals is that Operation Kenova has led to no prosecutions, and that is a sad fact.
The noble Baroness raised the issue about Tom Oliver. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on a matter under criminal investigation, but the Government are clear that a continued focus on criminal justice outcomes will deliver neither justice nor information to the vast majority of families. That is why obtaining information, as I said earlier, which we know is so important to many victims and survivors, is the cornerstone of the proposals that the UK Government have put forward. We want to deliver tangible outcomes for as many families as we possibly can.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, made great play—and I understand why—about why we are bringing forward these proposals and cannot find an agreement. We are determined to drive progress and deliver legislation on this issue, but we are consulting first. This paper sets out our proposals and, as I said earlier, it will be an intensive and time-limited period of engagement. There are many different perspectives on this difficult issue, which we recognise, but we must all work together to find a way forward that works for Northern Ireland, which comes back to a point the noble Baroness made. These issues are sensitive; they will require courage and, importantly, they will include collaboration.
The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)
We come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be kept short.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, I have spent many, many hours in meetings with victims and survivors of the Troubles and was also heavily involved in the Stormont House negotiations in 2014. My noble friend will be aware that all previous attempts by successive Governments to deal with legacy have foundered because of lack of consensus in Northern Ireland. None the less, is it not the case that for any proposals to succeed, they will require significant support from across the community? Can he therefore assure the House that legitimate points and concerns raised during this short and intensive consultation will be fully and properly considered?
Secondly, does my noble friend agree with me that without the contribution and sacrifice of the Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross and the Armed Forces, there would have been no peace process in Northern Ireland and no 1998 agreement? Will he, therefore, picking up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, assure me and the House that this Conservative and Unionist Government will never accept any equivalence between those who upheld the rule of law in Northern Ireland and those terrorists who sought to destroy it?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
On the last point, my noble friend is right that there is no moral equivalence between veterans and service personnel who defended the rule of law and those who sought to destroy it, particularly from terrorist organisations. On the way forward, and slightly repeating what I said earlier, we will enter an intensive but brief period to engage with all parts of the community, including victims’ groups, to allow them to discuss and consider their proposals. On my noble friend’s point about the RUC and the Armed Forces, they have served with bravery, professionalism and distinction but, it must be said, with some exceptions.
Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)
My Lords, people talk about moving on, but it feels that many families of victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland are being asked to move aside, which is unacceptable and intolerable. Their rightful desire for justice, already tempered by concessions to terrorists such as release from prison after two years, on-the-runs’ letters and royal pardons secretly delivered, has been sacrificed. The latest step from the Government has been greeted with a mixture of anger and disbelief. The Government talk about not making an equivalence between terrorists and members of the Armed Forces and the police, but these proposals are in grave danger of breaching that principle. I have great respect for the Minister and know that he cares deeply for Northern Ireland. Why are the Government setting aside the unanimous political consensus in Northern Ireland and, more perplexingly, the unanimous views of victims of the terrorists?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I, in return, very much respect the huge amount of experience and knowledge that the noble Lord has from his continuing time in Northern Ireland. The UK Government understand, fully appreciate and are very sympathetic to the immense difficulty for some families of accepting any prospect of a shift from criminal justice outcomes. However, this approach offers the best chance of giving more families some sense of justice through acknowledgement, accountability and restorative means, rather than a focus on retributive justice, by looking at reconciliation and how we can deliver for victims in order to end the cycle of investigations.
Lord Mandelson (Lab) [V]
My Lords, it must be right in principle that every family bereaved in the conflict should have access to an effective investigation and meaningful process of justice, regardless of the perpetrator. This, rightly, has guided every Government since the Good Friday agreement. However, in practice, we must be honest with ourselves that effective, conclusive investigations in the numbers demanded is simply not possible. The likelihood of prosecution is remote and therefore the original perpetrators, for all practical purposes, are being shielded by the rule of law, not living in fear of it. Therefore, it is reasonable to weigh alternative approaches. We should consider the Government’s proposals on their merits, however painful it is—and I acknowledge that it is painful—for victims’ families to accept a statute of limitations.
However, there is a suspicion that the Government might be half-hearted about a system of information retrieval if it is introduced, and that the Prime Minister let the cat out of the bag when he talked of drawing a line under the so-called Troubles the other day. Does the Minister accept that if any new body is created to retrieve information and confront people with the truth, it must be genuinely independent and powerful—fearless and fearlessly led? If not, it would be much worse than useless; it would be an insult to, and a betrayal of, every bereaved family in Northern Ireland. Do the Government accept this?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
Indeed, and again, I appreciate the knowledge and huge experience that the noble Lord has from his time in Northern Ireland and when he was in government throughout all those years. I reassure him that we indeed wish to set up a fully independent body to look at this. It is very important that it is fully independent, and the issues relating to that independence will be laid out, as we will see over the coming weeks. Again, we are consulting and we would like to hear from all parties on this. However, the noble Lord will also know—I appreciate his helpful remarks—that Northern Ireland has already seen difficult but necessary measures put in place that have in the past put aside normal criminal justice processes for the cause of peace and reconciliation. He will know that this includes the early release of prisoners, restricting prison sentences to just two years, even for the most heinous Troubles offences, and concluding the process of secretly decommissioning paramilitary weapons. Therefore I believe he is right that we are in a position where we need once again to explore alternative proposals.
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
My Lords, may I begin by endorsing the powerful response to the Statement from my noble friend Lady Suttie? If you look in the body of the Statement, you see that these issues are described as being “complex and sensitive”. Given that all political parties in Northern Ireland have united in their opposition, how can the Government possibly expect that they can implement these proposals? What price devolution of power if they attempt to do so?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I am afraid I do not accept the rather negative views from the noble Lord. That may be the case, and I am not complacent about the views that have been expressed so far. However, I say again that these are genuine proposals that we have put on the table which we wish to talk about to all parts of the community. Our hope is that in discussions and in listening to what they think, we will be able to find a way forward. I say to the noble Lord, who has not put forward any alternative proposals himself, that there is nothing else on the table and we need to look at alternative means, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson.
The Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Earl of Kinnoull) (CB)
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and the noble Lord, Lord Hannan of Kingsclere, have withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt.
Lord Dannatt (CB) [V]
My Lords, it is now some three years since I led a debate in your Lordships’ House to call for legislation to end the unfair and unreasonable pursuit of veteran soldiers arising from their actions during the Troubles, the vast majority of which were firmly within the law. I therefore welcome the statement of intent that puts forward a statute of limitations to end all investigations that might lead to prosecutions in a continued but sadly vain attempt to seek the truth through the criminal justice system, as the collapse of recent trials has shown. However, I am sure that the Minister agrees that no one is above the law, so I press the question of whether, in the event of new and compelling evidence becoming available, the Government intend to insert a clause in the proposed legislation to cover that eventuality. If not, why not?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I am sure that the noble Lord will be part of the proposals that we have put forward and that we will engage with him. I am not able to give an answer to him at the moment. He is right that nobody is above the law. I appreciate his general welcome for these proposals and I recognise, as he also will, that these measures are intended to bring greater certainty for all communities, including veterans and the families of victims. Our proposals—again, they are proposals—will move the focus away from this endless cycle of investigations into the past and on to a future based around reconciliation and delivering answers for all victims.
Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, does the Minister understand the dangers of an amnesty—let us call it what it really is—playing into the hands of Sinn Féin/IRA’s long-term war strategy of rewriting history to establish moral equivalence between legitimate soldiers and police, who donned the uniform and in the vast majority of cases served with restraint and honour, and the terrorist, whose sole aim was to murder, bomb and destroy lives? Does he accept that this moral equivalence is exactly what these proposals are bringing about?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I would like to correct the noble Baroness: this is not an amnesty, and we never said that it was or would be an amnesty; it is a statute of limitation. There is a difference, which is that there will be no pardons. However, we must be clear that, with the passage of time, the number of convictions flowing from any investigative process is likely to be extremely low, as I said earlier. If our focus is criminal justice, we will fail almost every family.
Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
My Lords, there is an equivalence in the pain that all victims feel. I do not see how the Government are going to move forward unless there is a drastic change in their proposals. Do the Government have any further plans to consult the community and to amend their proposals so that there is some element of acceptance for what is, at the moment, a unanimous view against the Government’s idea?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I find the noble Lord’s comments quite helpful, because they allow me to say again that this is a consultative process and that we will be listening to views expressed. As I said earlier, for some, what we are proposing may—and will—be very difficult to accept. We recognise that these issues are highly complex, sensitive and steeped in—how shall I put it?—a dark history, and therefore will be, as they have been for decades, hard to address. I acknowledge the noble Lord’s point about the pain of all victims.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, a previous Conservative Government negotiated the Stormont House agreement, upon which many parties in Northern Ireland agree. They also, jointly with the Irish Government, commissioned New Decade, New Approach in January last year, which saw the restoration of institutions, and which contained a commitment to implement the Stormont House agreement. However, both of those elements have now been ditched and binned by this Conservative Government. So I ask the Minister: do the Government, having signed up to previous agreements and ditched them, now have any credibility, when all five political parties in Northern Ireland, along with the Irish Government, the Northern Ireland Assembly and victims, have opposed this latest Statement containing proposals because it violates and undermines the position of victims and survivors? We must always remember that reconciliation—a truly reconciled society—requires justice and accountability.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I note the comments made by the noble Baroness about the Stormont House agreement. As I think I said earlier, we continue to adhere to the principles of the agreement. I think we should be positive rather than negative in looking at these proposals and at the details within the Command Paper. I am sure that the noble Baroness, with her experience of Northern Ireland, has already gone through it with a fine-tooth comb, but I encourage her and all others involved in this process to look carefully at what we are proposing, to engage with our process intensively and to help us find an alternative way forward in this very difficult matter.
Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD) [V]
My Lords, in the other place, the Minister was content to use the quote from the excellent report by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and Denis Bradley published back in 2009. But what have the Government done to consider, even in part, that report, which went to enormous lengths to address precisely what the Government are still talking about today, 12 years later?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The noble Baroness brings to light the problems that we have all been facing over decades in Northern Ireland; and here we are, with the Government looking at, and working extremely hard to find, a way forward. I took note of the Secretary of State’s comments at the end of the Statement. We are at a point where we must find a way forward, having the victims in mind. We must also look at a process of reconciliation and not look to find routes that are simply not going to lead to any prosecutions.