Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I chair the Better Regulation Executive, which was very much part of recommending these changes. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, recognises the value of the scheme and I pay tribute to the previous Government for having introduced it because it is a valuable tool and has reduced significantly the burden on businesses that have participated in it. My concern about the proposed amendment is the definition of “to a material extent”. It will create a lot of debate and potential confusion around how one defines “material extent”. The trade associations that have been consulted and would be keen to participate in this scheme have members who all have a common interest. I see this as providing a real opportunity to take a significant regulatory burden away from businesses that are members of a trade association and would wish to participate in such a scheme, so I have a problem with Amendment 28ZDA.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie)]

My Lords, before I turn to these amendments I would just like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his very kind and extensive words of welcome at the previous Sitting of Committee. I look forward to a continuing and fruitful dialogue with the noble Lord. As he said himself, we sing in the Parliament choir together, although I hazard a guess that his tunefulness is somewhat superior to my own. I look forward to working closely with him and other noble Lords over the coming weeks on this Bill. I also confirm that I intend to propose meetings on the various matters where it was suggested this would be helpful at earlier stages of the Committee.

Turning to this group of amendments, I thank the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Stevenson, for their amendments to Clause 59 concerning eligibility for the primary authority scheme, which I shall respond to in turn. This scheme was of course introduced by the previous Government, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, mentioned, and has been much welcomed.

Clause 59 broadens the criteria for businesses to be eligible for the primary authority scheme. It will mean in practice that many small businesses that operate in only one local authority area will be able to join, together with similar businesses which share an approach to compliance. I hope that I can answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about what that means.

The Government see a shared approach to compliance as one that a business consistently follows in order to fulfil its regulatory obligations. Such an approach should result from guidance or procedures issued from a single point, such as a head office or a trade association. This will mean that franchises of the same brand or members of the same trade association, for example, could qualify. They will be able to enjoy the valuable assurance that a primary authority partnership can bring.

The new eligibility criteria have been intentionally drafted broadly. This is to ensure that as many small businesses as possible can benefit from reduced regulatory burdens. A business will be able to join the scheme only if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the business meets the eligibility criteria, and statutory guidance will provide more detail about the matters likely to be taken into account in assessing eligibility under the new criteria.

It is intended that further detail as to the circumstances likely to constitute a shared approach to compliance will be included in statutory guidance. Adding further detail to the drafting of the clause could inadvertently restrict participation in the scheme for the very businesses that this clause is attempting to help.

Of course, having a broad definition of a shared approach to compliance in the legislation means that a wide variety of groups of businesses could qualify for the scheme and the nature of the resulting partnership will rightly need to vary. For example, where a trade association acts purely to distribute information to its members, the primary authority partnership will be very different from one which involves a trade association that provides a fully audited accreditation scheme for its members.

This type of detail will also be given in the statutory guidance and the statutory mechanism for scrutiny of proposed new partnerships by the Secretary of State provides assurance that shared approaches to compliance will be handled appropriately.

Amendment 28ZDB seeks to impose a statutory requirement for consultation before the Secretary of State issues statutory guidance on shared approach to compliance. Guidance for businesses and local authorities will be very important to provide detail of how the extended scheme will work in practice. The views of all interested parties will be vital in making the scheme work as well as it possibly can. For this reason, a commitment was given during Committee debates in the other place that,

“any guidance published as a result of the clause will be developed in consultation with stakeholders, including businesses, local authorities, trade associations and business groups”.—[Official Report, Commons, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill Committee, 12/7/12; col. 606.]

I should like to pick up on a number of the comments raised. My noble friend Lord Deben asked about continuing the process. The Government are committed to the primary authority scheme. It is a key tool in reducing red tape and ending the tick-box culture of regulation.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, asked at the beginning of the debate whether there were any extensions to primary authorities in the pipeline. I can confirm that the Government are consulting on extending primary authorities to include several new regulations, including those on sunbeds, if I read the noble Lord correctly. He also asked about statutory guidance and consultation. The Secretary of State already issues statutory guidance in relation to the primary authority scheme, and Clause 59(5) provides that the Secretary of State can also issue guidance on the matters likely to be taken into account in assessing whether a business meets the new “shared” approach to compliance test. In Committee in the House of Commons, a commitment was made to develop guidance in consultation with stakeholders, including local authorities. I can confirm that the existing statutory guidance will be updated to include further content relating to these proposals. This will be in place, in time for the proposed extension of eligibility becoming effective.

In summary, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments, because I hope that I have provided sufficient reassurance that these matters will be dealt with by guidance, taking into account the views of interested parties.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, which has helpfully taken us forward a little bit. The extension proposed is much more focused on the assured advice component of the primary authority, rather than inspection plans. But I will not pursue that at the moment. I welcome the repeated reassurance that consultation will precede any issue of guidance. That is helpful. I am certainly pleased to see the enthusiastic support of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for this approach, and indeed that of the noble Lord, Lord Curry.

The wording “material extent” was simply a peg on which to hang an amendment so that we could have the discussion that we have just had. I accept entirely that if it appeared in its current form in the Bill it would not be particularly helpful. I thank the Minister for his comments and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords for their amendments to the inspection plans clause, to which I shall respond.

Clause 60 strengthens inspection plans so that local authorities must not deviate from a valid plan without prior agreement from the primary authority. This will ensure that inspection plans can have maximum impact to reduce the burden of regulation for businesses and regulators, and target scarce resource where it is most needed. Amendment 28ZDC proposes that the legislation should require inspection plans to have regard to the way other regulatory bodies exercise equivalent functions.

This is an interesting idea and it gives me the opportunity to underline the Government’s view that it is paramount for regulatory bodies to work together consistently within the system. That said, we do not feel that this amendment is necessary. The legislation already requires primary authorities to take into account relevant recommendations of other regulators relating to inspections when developing inspection plans. The statutory guidance reinforces this requirement.

Further, processes have been agreed with the regulatory bodies, which ensure that national regulators have the opportunity to comment on draft inspection plans before the Secretary of State gives consent. There are support mechanisms that allow primary authorities to raise queries and assure themselves that their course of travel is in line with policy and best practice in the area.

Amendment 28ZDD proposes that an exception be made to the binding nature of inspection plans where a local authority believes that it is not appropriate in the circumstances to carry out particular inspection activity in accordance with an inspection plan. The Government agree entirely that there may be circumstances where it is not appropriate for inspection activity to follow inspection plans.

The underlying statutory guidance accordingly makes clear that inspection plans apply only to routine inspections carried out in a proactive way by the local authority. An inspection plan would not impede a local authority in responding to specific complaints or local intelligence. In fact, a plan is likely to strengthen an officer’s ability to react by providing important information about the company and its approach to compliance.

I should like to make it clear that there is nothing in the proposed changes to the operation of the primary authority scheme or inspection plans that would prevent or delay local authority action in response to complaints or specific local concerns. The Government firmly believe that primary authority inspection plans must become binding and I shall give detailed reasoning for that in the stand part debate, which we will come to in a few moments.

I will pick up on a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, concerning the Health and Safety Executive’s role in relation to local authorities. As the noble Lord described in detail, the Health and Safety Executive worked through local authorities for categories of businesses considered as low-risk. I should clarify that “primary authority” applies only to local authority regulators. The Health and Safety Executive responded to Professor Löfstedt’s recommendations separately. I hope, therefore, that noble Lords will not press these two amendments as the existing scheme for inspection plans contains the necessary safeguards.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I certainly do not propose to press these amendments or take them forward on Report. I am not sure that the Minister’s reply, which was generally helpful, fundamentally dealt with the position of the HSE and the split enforcement role of health and safety between local authorities and the HSE, particularly with the quite clear proposal that came from Professor Löfstedt’s report. I suspect that this is a debate for another occasion and not for the content of this Bill. Accordingly, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Curry of Kirkharle]

My Lords, I will also try to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. Under the new governance arrangements that exist for the primary authority scheme with the Better Regulation Delivery Office, there is significant representation from local government on that governance body. I therefore hope that she will be reassured that there will be considerable discussion between the Better Regulation Delivery Office and local government on how the scheme will be implemented.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, Clause 60 strengthens primary authority inspection plans. Its effect is to make it binding for local authorities to act in accordance with a plan which is in force. Strengthening inspection plans in this way is a crucial measure for the Government’s aim of,

“ending the culture of ‘tick-box’ regulation”.

Under the current provisions, primary authorities and businesses can work together to establish an inspection plan. Several businesses have done so, and report more informed and better targeted enforcement as a result. As things stand, local authorities must have regard only to plans, and are not bound by them. We have been told by primary authorities that plans and requests for feedback are not being followed in many cases. This means that the full benefits of inspection plans are not being realised, and many businesses are put off developing them because they do not have confidence that they will be followed.

With this clause, it is our intention to remedy this problem and to improve inspection plans. We are giving them the teeth that they need to deliver as much benefit for businesses as possible. This will ensure that businesses and primary authorities have certainty that inspections will be carried out in accordance with the plans in which they have invested. It will also mean that essential, timely feedback is received to keep the business informed of its key risks. Inspection plans are a crucial tool in enabling businesses to earn recognition for their compliance procedures and to reduce the burden of regulation. They also allow firms to focus on the key risks to their business and optimise their procedures, saving valuable time and wasted effort and allowing them to provide a better service to their customers.

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Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

28ZE: Clause 61, page 58, line 34, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 59

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, these three government amendments have the effect of removing new Section 47(2B) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, and any references to it from Clause 61. New Section 47(2B) is a new regulation-making power. The effect of the power is to enable the Secretary of State to make regulations, subject to affirmative procedure, which make changes to the extent to which,

“other health and safety legislation”,

is actionable.

“Other health and safety legislation”,

is defined as,

“any provision of an enactment which relates to any matter relevant to any of the general purposes”,

of Part 1 of the 1974 Act.

The general purposes of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act include securing the health, safety and welfare of persons at work; protecting persons other than persons at work against risks to health or safety arising out of, or in connection with, the activities of persons at work; and controlling the keeping and use of explosive or highly flammable or otherwise dangerous substances.

In its report published on 15 November 2012, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, although content with the other regulation-making powers in Clause 61, was concerned that the power in Clause 47(2B) appeared to be very far-reaching, particularly since the purposes of the 1974 Act went beyond the health and safety of people at work. The committee considered that the power was inappropriate and recommended that the new power in Section 47(2B) should be removed from the Bill.

The Government have reflected on the comments of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and, on further consideration, accept that it is not necessary to take such a wide power to amend other legislation as there are no current plans to extend the policy to other legislation. I am happy to say that we have therefore accepted the recommendation of the Committee. These three amendments give effect to that recommendation. I trust that noble Lords will support this improvement to the clause. I beg to move.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we are happy to support these amendments. They seek to remove a very extensive power which could draw a wide range of circumstances into the ambit of duties which cease to be actionable. As the Delegated Powers Committee put it, there is no discernible policy objective to the inclusion of the proposed new Section 47(2B). The scope could be incredibly wide: any provisions of any enactment which link to any matter relevant to any of the general purposes of the 1974 Act—that is the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. The Delegated Powers Committee has pointed to just one example: the control and keeping of dangerous substances. It is therefore absolutely right that the Government have backed off on this; they are very wise to do so. It is illustrative of a dangerous desire to accumulate draconian powers, but I am pleased that the Government have stepped back from that on this occasion.

[Lord Deben]

I welcome this, and ask the Minister to carry back the message that it is extremely valuable for people to listen to the advice given by committees. He may be involved in the forthcoming Bill which is entirely incorrectly called the Growth and Infrastructure Bill, in which there are some very uncooked suggestions. It would be of great help to the Committee were he to give an assurance that he will do his best to make sure that the Government listen with the same care to some of the suggestions that come from other committees as they appear to have done on this occasion in listening to the specialist committee that has advised this particular action.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for his support in this respect. I also take note of the comments that have been made by my noble friend Lord Deben.

Amendment 28ZE agreed.

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

28ZF: Clause 61, page 59, line 5, leave out “, (2A) or (2B)” and insert “or (2A)”

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[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I have listened very carefully to the debate this afternoon. I understand the concerns of noble Lords about the importance of protecting people at work from risks to their safety and long-term health so eloquently put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and, indeed, by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, in an impassioned and extensive speech. If noble Lords will bear with me, there is much to say in response to the many views and concerns expressed.

First, I reassure noble Lords that the purpose of this clause is not to weaken or reduce the existing protections for employees. It is about helping to increase the confidence of responsible employers to continue to do the right things to protect their employees. I stress emphatically that the law, which sets out the standards that employers must meet and the duties which employers must perform, including in relation to self-employed contractors on construction sites, is not affected by this proposal and is not changing. The Health and Safety Executive will continue to investigate serious incidents and complaints about poor practice and will take enforcement action, including, where appropriate, prosecutions, against those employers who fail to meet their responsibilities in line with the executive’s established policies and procedures, so let me explain why it is appropriate to take action.

We all recognise that the world has changed since 1974, when the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act was introduced to replace large numbers of detailed regulations with a proportionate risk-based approach to health and safety. Indeed, the late Lord Robens, on whose recommendations the 1974 Act was based, noted,

“that the sheer mass of this law, far from advancing the cause of health and safety, may well have reached a point where it becomes counterproductive”.

Clearly, every death and serious injury is a tragedy that should not happen. The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, referred to this earlier in Committee and has spoken about it again today. However, considerable progress has been made in reducing the incidence of injury and ill health. I listened carefully to the heartbreaking stories of those who have been killed or injured, as outlined in the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy. Each one represents a tragic human story for individuals and for their relations.

Progress has been illustrated by the successful delivery of the Olympic Games, where there were no work-related fatalities on the whole of the London 2012 construction programme. This is the first time that any host nation has achieved that. The noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, specifically raised the issue of construction sites. The substantive law that sets out the duties and responsibilities on employers, and to whom these are owed, including to self-employed subcontractors on construction sites, will not change. Therefore, the ability for such workers to bring a claim for negligence will also remain the same as now. Anyone who directly employs or engages construction workers or controls or manages construction work is a contractor for the purposes of the construction regulations. The duties on contractors apply whether the workers are employees or self-employed or agency workers. There is no distinction.

We are committed to the continued improvement of health and safety standards at work and to building on the progress made to date. The effectiveness of the health and safety regulatory framework has more recently been thoroughly examined by my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham in his report Common Sense, Common Safety.

[Baroness Whitaker]

Will the noble Lord confirm that the noble Lord, Lord Young, did not touch on the matter of Clause 61 in his report?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I would need to refer back to the report to give the noble Baroness a full answer. Indeed I shall do so.

The effectiveness of the health and safety regulatory framework has also been highlighted by Professor Löfstedt, as has been mentioned today by several noble Lords, in his independent review, Reclaiming Health and Safety for All. Both my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham, whose report received much support across the House when it was debated, and Professor Löfstedt found that there is no case for fundamental change of the health and safety framework itself and that the existing regulatory requirements are broadly right. In fact, the biggest problem today is the way in which the regulatory requirements are interpreted and applied.

No one can be complacent. If we are to build on the steady progress made, we need to take action to tackle the current myths about health and safety, myths which the Health and Safety Executive see as such a problem that it has set up the Myth Busters Challenge Panel to provide a mechanism so that anyone who receives advice in the name of health and safety which they believe is disproportionate or inaccurate can challenge that advice.

Businesses consistently report that these myths lead to confusion about what the law actually requires and a fear of being sued, which, in turn, drives employers to overimplement the law in an effort to protect themselves and indeed discourages them from expanding their business. This in turn reinforces the perception that the application of health and safety law is unduly burdensome. I shall have more to add to that later.

This situation results in responsible employers taking an overly cautious approach, which has a detrimental effect on their approach to controlling risks properly in the workplace. For example, spending considerable resources on disproportionate paperwork and record-keeping, far in excess of what is necessary to comply with the law, diverts employers from taking a sensible approach to identifying the risks that actually affect their business and their employees, and taking sensible day-to-day precautions to protect their employees from those risks.

In the interests of both employers and employees, the aim is to improve understanding of what the law actually requires and to allay fears about possible litigation to help build employers’ confidence to take on new activities and further develop their businesses and to include recruiting new employees, which is so vital today.

To address these issues, the Government are implementing a package of measures, based on the recommendations of my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham and Professor Löfstedt, to reform both the civil litigation system and to restore a common sense approach to health and safety. This measure forms part of this package and I would reassure noble Lords that its introduction into the Bill at a later stage is purely due to the timing of the publication of Professor Löfstedt’s report and the Government’s desire to address the concerns he raised at the earliest opportunity.

We have already put in place a programme of work to improve understanding by simplifying the supporting guidance that explains what the law requires and to consolidate and clarify the body of health and safety regulation in a number of key industrial sectors. This programme builds on the work carried out as part of the better regulation initiative led by the previous Administration.

The clause does not change the duties placed on employers, but amends Section 47 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act so that in future, unless the legislation provides for an exception, it will be possible to bring a claim for compensation in respect of a breach of health and safety legislation only where it can be proved that the employer has been negligent.

Claims for breaches of the general duties of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act can already be brought only for negligence. The change in this Bill simply extends this position to regulations made under the Act to create a consistent approach to civil litigation for all health and safety legislation. This means that if an employer fails in their duty of care towards their employee they can of course be successfully sued. However, where an accident has taken place and the employer could not have reasonably done anything about it, they should not be liable.

In the knowledge that they will not be liable if an accident happens which is totally outside their control, this change will support responsible employers, who take care to protect their employees, by encouraging them to take sensible steps to manage workplace risks. I am grateful for the speech made by my noble friend Lady Brinton and the example that she gave to support the helplessness that some businesses can experience where there is no defence for them. This will not assist irresponsible employers who fail to comply with the law as they will have no defence to an accusation that they did not take all reasonable steps to protect their employees.

This amendment to the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act has been adopted in preference to amending each strict liability duty, as Professor Löfstedt suggested, because an approach targeting each strict duty would be much more complex, and therefore complicated for businesses and their employees to understand.

The noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, brought up the concern that the law would go backwards, which I think was her expression, and the employer would hold all the cards. I would like to assure her and all noble Lords that the provision will affect only a small number of duties that are unqualified. In any claim for negligence, the existing regulatory requirements on employers will remain relevant, as the courts will look to the statutory duties, approved codes of practice and established guidance to inform them about what risks a reasonable employer should be aware of and the steps they would be expected to take to manage those risks. I stress again that this change will only assist responsible employers who have done what is required of them and can demonstrate this.

This amendment reflects an adjustment to help rebalance the civil litigation system and, as part of the wider reforms of the system, is a proportionate response to the impact that strict duties currently have in the civil litigation system identified by Professor Löfstedt. It also has the benefit of creating a consistent approach to civil litigation for all health and safety legislation.

Currently, most claims are brought for both breach of statutory duty and negligence and, in practice, it is anticipated that the vast majority of claims will still be capable of being brought for negligence. For the small number of cases where this is not possible, as now, individuals will be able to claim for financial and other support through the state benefit system.

This measure is not about reducing the number of claims. It is about establishing the principle that an employer who has done nothing wrong should have the opportunity to defend themselves on the basis of having taken all reasonable precautions. Providing employers with this important reassurance will help them to manage health and safety risks in a sensible and proportionate way.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

At the heart of the noble Viscount’s argument there are general arguments about numbers. The Health and Safety Executive’s impact assessment says that this change will affect 200 sets of health and safety regulations. When it seeks to answer its own question about the number of cases that this will effect, it says that it has not a clue. In the light of that information, which I have here in this assessment before me, could the Minister please tell the Committee on what basis he estimates that this will impact on a small number of regulations and cases? If that is wrong, we are legislating here on a false basis. The HSE has no idea what the statistical base of this is.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for that intervention. I shall answer his questions in a moment.

It now falls on me to answer a number of questions, which I will do in a particular order, if I may. The first substantive question came from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and concerns the basic concept of why there was no review or consultation, as he put it. I assure him that the noble Lord, Lord Young, and Professor Löfstedt consulted widely and found that there was significant and consistent evidence from businesses that the perception of a compensation culture and the fear of being sued have a significant effect in driving overimplementation of the law, and going beyond what the law requires creates unnecessary costs for employers, diverting them from focusing on taking the practical day-to-day steps to protect their employees. Professor Löfstedt, in addition, had concerns that the wider reforms to the civil litigation system and changes to simplify the health and safety system would be less effective if business continued to overimplement the law due to a fear of being sued.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

If the Government’s case is that there was consultation and that Professor Löfstedt undertook that consultation, why did the Government not follow his recommendations?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

As has been mentioned earlier, we are following the vast bulk of his recommendations.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I shall try not to prolong this, because I know that the Minister has a lot to get through and the clock is ticking. Clearly, the Government did not follow the recommendation related to strict liability. Or is the Government’s case that it did?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

In answer to the noble Lord, I would say that it is not black and white that we followed all the recommendations from Professor Löfstedt, but I shall certainly write to him to explain which recommendations we did follow and which, perhaps, we did not.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also raised the issue of whether the issue is wider in scope than the Löfstedt recommendation. Amending each strict liability duty individually, as Professor Löfstedt suggested, would be complex, as I mentioned earlier, requiring a large number of changes to many sets of regulations, and confusing for employers. A single amendment to the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act addresses the same policy objective, is simple to understand and provides a consistent approach to civil litigation for all areas of activity covered by health and safety at work legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, also raised the question of whether the change would mean that cases were more difficult and costly to prove, and that employers would hold all the information. Employees will still have the right to bring claims when fault on the part of their employer can be proved. Currently, most claims are brought for breach of statutory duty and negligence, and in future it is expected that most claims will still be able to be brought for negligence.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am sorry, but we are dealing with some very important points here. On this mantra that most claims are brought under negligence and breach of statutory duty—even if it is right, and I am prepared to accept the Minister’s word on that—is it not right that they do not necessarily all proceed to the end of all those processes? The breach of statutory duty process leads to negotiations of settlement way beyond what you get for some of the burdens claimed for negligence.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It is clear that the vast majority of cases will be covered by negligence and that a small number of cases will fall outside. We should be clear about that.

Many health and safety duties are qualified by “so far as is reasonably practicable”, as was mentioned earlier. In practice, the tests applied for negligence and breach of statutory duty, qualified by “so far as is reasonably practicable”, are likely to be very similar. The record-keeping requirements of health and safety legislation will continue to ensure that information is available to employees where an accident has taken place.

I turn to the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Monks, concerning the European position. Under European Union law, member states can generally decide what sanctions and remedies to put in place to enforce EU obligations, subject to certain rules. In Great Britain, health and safety obligations are backed by various enforcement powers and criminal sanctions as well as the opportunity to claim for compensation in the civil courts, which will remain through the right to sue for negligence. Taken as a whole, the sanctions available for the enforcement of EU directives are, and will continue to be, effective.

I turn to the various points made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne. One of the questions that he raised concerned how much money is currently returned to the state by the Compensation Recovery Unit, and how much will be lost by this amendment. That is a very straight question. It is not possible to disaggregate the amount because the benefits available are dependent on individual circumstances. He also raised a point about the reform in terms of shifting the burden of supporting employees who are unable to make a claim to the state. Again, that was a very straight point. As I mentioned to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, it is recognised that a very small number of employees may not be able to claim in future under the new arrangements. None the less, this change is important as part of the wider package of government reforms in signalling an end to the perception of the compensation culture. Provision for non-contributory no-fault compensation payments—I emphasise that—for disablement caused by an accident at work is already available to individuals through the Industrial Injuries Scheme. All serious incidents will continue to be investigated by the Health and Safety Executive.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, also brought up the perception of the compensation culture. Businesses have expressed concerns about this fear. It is true and it has long been a driver of overcompliance. That was very clear to the noble Lord, Lord Young of Graffham, and, indeed, to Professor Löfstedt.

One of the crucial questions that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, raised, which was also raised rather more obliquely by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, was that of evidence. I should emphasise that, in conducting his review, Professor Löfstedt consulted most widely, including 30 meetings with individual stakeholders and several business forums. He also received 250 written submissions. The findings of his review build on the work completed by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Graffham, in his report, Common Sense, Common Safety. In preparing his report, the noble Lord consulted 132 wide-ranging organisations representing relevant professionals, including personal injury lawyers, businesses and associated organisations. He also spoke to more than 100 individuals, including health and safety professionals, Members of Parliament, councillors and leading academics in the field of law. I hope that goes a little way to answering the noble Lord’s question.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, also asked what the Government’s assessment was of the number of claims that this change will affect. It is anticipated that there will be only a small reduction in the number of claims made as most will still be able to be brought for negligence, as mentioned earlier. The only claims that are significantly affected will be those which rely on a breach of the law where there is no, or insufficient, evidence to prove the employer was negligent.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, raised the issue of negligence and the fact that the breaches of statutory duties were not equivalent and that the tests for negligence were nebulous. I think that was the term he used. Negligence and breach of statutory duty are different tests but most statutory duties require an employer to take such steps “as are reasonably practicable”. The common law requires an employer to take reasonable care for the safety of their employees. In practice, in the vast majority of cases the issues in dispute will be the same and the standard expected of the employer is likely to be very similar as now. As I mentioned earlier, the statutory framework will continue to inform the courts about the standards expected of the reasonable employer.

For the reasons that I have outlined, I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

The noble Viscount referred to my use of “nebulous”. If I remember correctly, that is the Government’s word, and was in the impact assessment. Coming back to the timing of this clause being introduced into the Bill, he referred to the fact that it could not go in earlier because of the Löfstedt report. Professor Löfstedt reported in November 2011, and indeed the Government responded in November 2011. That was time enough to get it in earlier.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I have certainly noted the point that the noble Lord has made. I was clearly of the understanding that that was the reason but I will certainly revert and check, given the dates that I have just received from him.

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

In responding to the Minister, I begin by thanking everybody who has participated. We had an excellent debate, drawn from a lot of experience and expertise. It really has been very good indeed, and I am very grateful to everybody who has contributed. However, I am sure that the Minister will not be surprised to learn that I do not accept very much of what he has got to say. I still think that Clause 61 should not become law. I cannot understand why he says that it will help good employers. A good employer is helped by the existing legislation, and if the Government are concerned to improve health and safety at work arrangements, then they should be supporting the Health and Safety Executive instead of diminishing its resources. If they think they need to do more on health and safety, the HSE is highly respected and ought to have more resources, rather than fewer—which is what the Government’s present policy seems to be.

I really do not accept a great deal of what the Minister has said today. I cannot understand why he is going on about compensation culture. I have made some contributions about my experience in that situation when I worked for an insurance company. We have been talking about claims by employees which often take years to settle, particularly if it is a death; frankly, what sort of compensation culture is that? There is a case for looking at aspects of our legislation, but certainly not via this clause, which takes away some of the support that people currently have in the area of health and safety at work.

I am not at all in favour of what the Minister has said. Of course, in Committee we do not have votes. However, I can assure the Minister that this will be back again at Report, because a number of us feel very strongly about it. I certainly do and I am sure that my noble friends do as well. He has not heard the last of this. In the mean time, I do not press this question.

Clause 62 agreed.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday at 3.45 pm.

Committee adjourned at 7.29 pm.