Al-Sweady Inquiry Report

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I agree entirely with my noble friend. There is no provision for the sponsoring department to recover costs incurred during a public inquiry. However, in light of the inquiry’s findings and the claimant’s disclosure failure, I assure my noble friend that we intend to appeal a costs order in the stayed judicial review, with a view to recovering some of the costs of that litigation.

[Viscount Slim (CB)]

My Lords, I ask noble Lords to think carefully and—as you always do—sensibly about this business of tactical questioning. This could have been an action with a wider content in the overall Iraqi plan. Further down the road or within 24 hours another major ambush such as this may have been contemplated, was being prepared for and would take place. Therefore, the immediate tactical questioning was very important to discover whether the incident was isolated or part of a larger plan. One has to be severe in the questioning, and there are ways of doing that, harsh and not so harsh—they could be offered a cigarette, for example, but there is no need to go into details. But it is vital to find out if there is more to come, immediately.

Therefore, when you use tactical questioning, which is not deep interrogation, minds should allow for this up to a certain period. The Ministry of Defence has now defined what can take place immediately after the battle, which is for the good and necessary for the future. If the Iraqis had captured nine of our soldiers, we would not have nine soldiers to speak to today and it would have been a slow process of death. It is worth remembering these things.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am assured that there is now a clear policy on tactical questioning and interrogation. This policy has been in place since 2005. The policies were separated in 2010 to emphasise the distinction between the two disciplines. They were further revised in 2012 to incorporate recommendations from the Baha Mousa inquiry and have been reviewed following the Court of Appeal judgment on the Hussein case.

Obviously, as the noble Viscount said, I cannot go into details of interrogation, but again I have spoken to a large number of service men and women about this subject, which interests me a lot, and I have visited military police. I accept that we still have many lessons to learn from noble Lords with a lot of experience in this and I am always ready to hear whatever advice they may have.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, as, I suspect, one of the few ex-NCOs here, I feel considerably outgunned by one or two of the contributions.

[Viscount Slim]

In World War II, we all joined up as private soldiers and the lucky ones later perhaps became officers, which was extra responsibility. I myself was an unpaid lance-corporal.

[Lord Snape]

Well, like the noble Viscount, my father joined up in World War II and became an NCO. I was fortunate enough to join the Armed Forces during a period of peacetime. What I was attempting to put to the Minister was that I believe that no other army in the world could behave with the restraint shown by the British Army, particularly after incidents such as the Danny Boy incident.

As for the report’s conclusions about ill treatment, does the Minister agree that the question of inadequate food and sleep would apply to the soldiers as much as to the detainees? On the question of Public Interest Lawyers, is the Minister aware that Mr Shiner made his reputation by attacking members of the police force, largely unsuccessfully for many years, before moving on to trawling round the battlefield looking for people prepared to make allegations against the British Armed Forces?

Reserve Forces

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I repeat that I am confident. As I understand it, retention in the reserves, particularly the Army reserves, is very much higher than in the regulars. I do not have the figures in front of me, but I was told before I came into the Chamber that retention in the reserves is considerably higher than in the regulars. I can write to my noble and learned friend with the figures.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, the noble Lord is aware that the business community has culled and fined its companies in the matter of strength and management to get through this very difficult economic stage. As a number of noble Lords have mentioned, some sort of reward is essential for those companies which are taking part. I will say a little more bluntly that perhaps some tax benefit or some exemption from certain company taxes should be given to companies which fulfil the deal. Giving away one chap today in a company, particularly in a small to medium-sized company, is a considerable sacrifice, and I believe that Her Majesty’s Government have not fully thought through the rewards for the business community.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Viscount that nothing is off the table. We are open to any suggestions. As for his proposal for a tax benefit, I will run it by the Treasury. It is certainly a very good suggestion. We seek an open relationship with employers tailored to meet the needs of different sizes and types of employers, based on mutual benefit. That will include working together to credit the skills and the training that reservists gain during service with recognised civilian qualifications, and the area that the noble Viscount mentioned.

Armed Forces: Army Basing Plan

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Slim]

The Minister made mention of training areas. To train an army properly with its ground-air support, great dedication must be given to the hours of darkness and night training. This always causes consternation among local government, various bodies and nearby inhabitants. What are the Government doing to ensure that night training is not sanctioned in any way in its most modern form today so that our military can consider and take part in proper night training within the United Kingdom? If we do not allow constant night training of our Regular Forces and Reserve Forces of all three services, we will not have much of an Army.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, it is my understanding that a good deal of night training takes place in different training areas, such as Salisbury Plain, Otterburn in Northumberland and in Wales. We hope to keep the NATO training area in Germany after we move the rest of the Army out. Troops go to Alberta, Canada, for night training and to other countries, of which the noble Viscount is aware, including jungle training in Brunei.

Armed Forces: Long-Term Care

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, there will be a Statement on Afghanistan later. I will be briefed for that and should be able to answer the noble Lord’s question then.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, the noble Lord is aware that a number of wounded and sick servicemen have fallen out of the net and live rough in our cities. The coalition Government have decided to remove, and make redundant any minute now, some 25,000 servicemen. The numbers who will fall out of the net will increase. What is required is a national plan to bring these people back into the fold, involving the Ministry of Defence, other departments and the National Health Service, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said. What are the MoD’s plans to cater for this?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, most veterans, including the seriously wounded, make a successful transition to civilian life and require little if any assistance after service. The MoD is working very closely with other government departments, the devolved Administrations and voluntary and community sector organisations to address all issues faced by ex-service offenders and homeless veterans.

Afghanistan

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, I would first like to thank the noble Lord for his great kindness in keeping your Lordships appraised of matters of defence and the meetings that he has within the MoD. This is a new development and it is much appreciated by everybody in your Lordships’ House.

I would like now to come down on to the ground and talk for two seconds or so about this land line. In a withdrawal, people become very defensively minded. I myself have been in one or two. It is vital that we keep the offensive spirit going during this period. Many attractive items will go out on the land line which the Taliban would like to get their hands on. The same goes for Bastion. Therefore it is not only defence of the convoy, but a proper offensive force that is going to disrupt any attack at all that is made. In Afghanistan, even in the old days, when there is a very attractive target those who are disagreeing among the tribes can come together. They might well think of this. In this event, one would be dealing not with the couple of dozen who were infiltrating into Bastion. The force levels of the Taliban—and there are quite a number waiting—would give us something to think about. The offensive spirit has to be maintained to disrupt the problem as it comes. I hope that, in planning the withdrawal, the ground air support that the army needs so much will not be thinned out to a state where it is not at full strength and in support of our forces. Withdrawal is very difficult and dangerous. The best way to handle it is not to be defensive-minded all the time and to retain a proper offensive force.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his kind words about the briefings. These are two-way briefings. I learn a lot from noble Lords who have a lot of experience, like the noble Viscount, of Afghanistan and other areas. Certainly I, my officials and the military who attend these briefings have learnt a great deal. I am very grateful for what the noble Viscount said.

The noble Viscount made a very important point about the drawdown of equipment. We have had a number of discussions about that. We are on the case. I can assure the noble Viscount that it will be properly defended. There will be ground air support and whatever else is necessary to make sure that we get these attractive bits of kit out.

Future Reserves 2020

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Thursday 8th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we realise that this will not work unless we have the co-operation of employers. We are keen to get as much input as we can from them. If we have to change the legislation and make other changes to make it work, we will do that, and of course we will be very flexible.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, I, too, welcome this Reserve Forces plan. I should like to mention two things. First, I noticed that the right honourable gentleman the Secretary of State used the word “injured”. Military people are “wounded”. The Minister is always good enough to use that word when he talks about the deaths of soldiers and the wounding of soldiers.

A highly paid football player gets a hack on the shin and he writhes on the ground as if he is about to expire: he is injured. A military person who is blown up, loses a limb, is hit by a bullet, shrapnel or sometimes steel: he is wounded. It is not much fun being wounded, but it is a great honour for your country. That should be declared. This awful politically correct way of saying that everybody is injured is quite wrong. The reservist, if he is wounded, would much rather be wounded than injured. There was a time when a stripe was given for being wounded. I know I do not have time to make my second example but I shall make it very quickly. It is not quite over 20 minutes. Why do not the Government get stuck—

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I should point out to the noble Viscount that we are at 20 minutes.

[Viscount Slim]

All right, but you have missed a great thing.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, perhaps next week the noble Viscount will share that with me. I always enjoy his stories. I shall take back to the department the important difference between injured and wounded.

Armed Forces

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Monday 5th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for allowing me to speak for a few moments in the gap.

I would like to cast a fly over the Minister. By cutting the numbers in the Army, which a number of noble Lords have discussed already, we are starting to get a problem of recruitment, selection and volunteering into the Special Forces. As the pool gets smaller and smaller, getting the right people in the right numbers is becoming—I will not say acute, but it is becoming tricky. There are whispers in the corridors that perhaps the standards are too high and perhaps you could lower them a bit, and that is very dangerous talk. If you dilute the product, you are not special. You become ordinary.

Something somewhere has to be done about this. We must not lower the standards of selection within the Special Forces. I say this very quietly but in public. I do not expect a reply. It is not something for public discussion. But I am forewarning the Minister that the standards and the success of the Special Forces, as we have long experienced, lie in the concentrated selection of the volunteer individual. That is what makes the exceptional operational efficiency of the Special Forces.

RAF: Fukushima Accident

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. I also pay tribute to her for her very strong support for the RAF Regiment over many years. We have announced changes to the number of RAF Regiment field squadrons from 2015 onwards, at the end of operations in Afghanistan, and wider reductions in the overall size of the Royal Air Force that enable a rebalancing of its structure. Two force protection wing headquarters and two field squadrons will draw down over the coming years. However, even with this drawdown, we will continue to have a robust and effective force able to support all future operational requirements, including CBRN protection.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some years ago, the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, and I spent some hours during the night with the Royal Air Force Regiment in Afghanistan observing its infantry and patrol tactics? It showed the very highest level of operational expertise, and the Government should in no way weaken the Royal Air Force Regiment.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I very much take the noble Viscount’s point and quite agree that the RAF Regiment is playing a very important role. I was in Afghanistan the week before last and saw for myself the important role that it is carrying out.

Armed Forces Bill

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, in Grand Committee and again today, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has given a detailed and moving account of the problems that have been encountered by bereaved service families in the course of a coroner’s inquest. It is very sad that any family should feel at the end of an inquest that their burdens have been made even heavier, but this is particularly regrettable for the family of someone who has given their life for their country.

We are focusing on the Bill today and time does not permit me to detail the progress that has been made. As the noble Baroness knows, Parliament is kept well informed through quarterly ministerial Statements. However, I can understand her wish to ensure that this subject is not allowed to drift away from public attention. I hope that my remarks on the first group of amendments have offered her reassurance, in two ways.

First, the commitment that the Secretary of State would have regard to the whole range of subjects included within the scope of the Armed Forces covenant, as set out in the guidance document published on 16 May, includes the operation of the inquest system for bereaved service families. Secondly, I draw the noble Baroness’s attention to the membership of the covenant reference group, which will now be consulted on the subjects to be covered in the annual report. It includes both the Royal British Legion, which has campaigned strongly on this issue, as the noble Baroness said, and the War Widows’ Association of Great Britain, which brings together many of those who unfortunately have first-hand knowledge of inquests. I am therefore confident that the Secretary of State will receive very clear advice on this aspect of the covenant.

I recognise that the noble Baroness is not just concerned about inquests for serving personnel. She also envisages drawing together information from any inquests into the deaths of former service men and women that might perhaps show a common thread. I can understand how data of this kind could be valuable, and we are always interested in developing our knowledge of the health outcomes of veterans, where this is practical. However, I would point out to the noble Baroness that the field of healthcare is already mentioned in the clause. Beyond that, I would not wish to commit to any more detailed provision in relation to inquests without a much clearer idea of what is feasible.

[Viscount Slim]

Perhaps I could respectfully make two remarks. First, the noble Baroness was quite right to say that the time for investigation into these matters has passed. I made gentle inquiries through discussions here and there and there is actually no plan for increased casualties and therefore this timetable will naturally go on. I hope the noble Lord and his officials have considered this awful business if casualties were to increase at a faster rate and therefore all the timings would not be kept up.

Secondly, to those who wish—as we all wish and hope—that there is no requirement for inquests one day in our lives, I would merely say that history shows that since the end of World War II there has only been one year that a British serviceman has not been killed in action.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

The noble Viscount, Lord Slim, makes an important point. We have no plans for increased casualties, and indeed the aspiration is to be out of Afghanistan in a combat role by the end of 2014. If, unfortunately, there are increased casualties, we will respond to that as best we can.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, while we were in Committee in your Lordships’ Chamber, there was a very fine debate on the Commonwealth and how it could be brought closer together and how we could enhance it. There were some excellent speeches. I think this whole question, put by the noble and gallant Lord, of Commonwealth decorations and medals received would bring the Commonwealth even closer together. After all, in the past three years, one New Zealander and two Australians got the Victoria Cross. There seems to be no problem about them participating; they are from the Commonwealth.

The Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence have missed a point or two about the PJM medal of Malaysia, which is in dispute at the moment. The HD Committee, which I feel is the right way to go about these things, and I have said so in Committee, has missed a trick. Here is a Muslim nation—sophisticated, democratic and ably led—offering in gratitude a medal of thanks to all our veterans. That is really what it is. It is about the only nation I can think of that we have left that has thanked us like this. Of course, history shows, as many noble Lords will recall, that the gratitude comes from the fact that while the terrorist campaign was going on, and the British were definitely running that, it gave the Malays time to make their Government and to build their democracy.

As I said in Committee, I do not think that the HD Committee advised the Sovereign well. I would put it no stronger than that because I would not wish to embarrass the Sovereign in any way. We have not been very clever, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, says, in the way in which we have treated the veterans in rather rude, grubby and unfriendly letters that say, “You can do this but you can’t do that”. There is discontent among those veterans. They are old men and women now. Many in the Brigade of Gurkhas spent 15 years of their lives in Malaya, and they are not allowed to wear the medal. Many British service men and women in the 11-year period went back one, two, three more times. This is giving, and this is service—to Britain and to Malaysia. The noble Lord the Minister wears such a medal himself. I know that he puts it on the inside of his jacket when he goes out and makes sure that he has it on. I say to the noble Lord the Minister that if I appeared in front of the Agong or any of the Malayan generals whom I know, respect and look up to and I was not wearing a PJM, they would be very offended.

Let us ask the noble Lord the Minister to refuse the recommendation and look at this again. The HD Committee should not be too proud to change its mind. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, said, we are moving on and things are different from how they were in wartime and in the early days after World War II. The noble Lord the Minister wears his general service medal bravely and proudly for his time as an excellent cavalry officer in Malaysia. I ask him to look again and not to let the civil servants rule him all the time.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig. The issue of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal is a stain on the honour of Great Britain. This is no way to treat our veterans. They are told that they can accept a medal awarded by His Majesty the King of Malaysia but that they must not wear it. The decision was based on advice to Her Majesty the Queen from the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals. I have been involved in this matter, with other noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords, over the years. We were told that one reason why the HD Committee reached its conclusion was the double-medalling and five-year rule. However, the double-medalling and five-year rule was set aside in order that the men could accept a medal and then reimposed to prevent them wearing it. This is appalling. To add further shame, the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals then advised that they should wear it for one week when they were invited to return to Malaysia for the celebration of its 50th anniversary of independence. What an appalling way to treat our veterans.

Mention has been made of the way in which some veterans had communications from various departments and civil servants. I have a letter from a veteran who said that he was advised by a civil servant that he could stuff his PJM back into his Kellogg's packet because the medal’s status meant nothing. What a way to talk to somebody who fought for our Armed Forces in the jungles of Malaysia but not in the jungles of Whitehall. I have sought, through freedom of information legislation, more information on how the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals reached its decision. Members often do not meet; they communicate and reach their decisions by e-mail. It is a good thing that we did not have e-mails in 1957 at the start of the Malaysian campaign, or some of the boys we wanted to send might have said, “I’m not going but I’ll send an e-mail of support”. This is an appalling way to treat our veterans.

In a few weeks, on November 11, we will remember those who gave their lives for Britain. There could be no better time to take stock and say, “We’ve got this wrong, we need to review this and ensure that these boys are able to wear a medal that they richly deserve”. I know that the noble Lord the Minister feels this in his heart. I echo the comments made by the noble Lord: set aside the advice given by civil servants and anybody else. The right thing to do is to let our boys wear a medal. Let us—as a Government, as a Parliament and as a country—honour them in the way that they deserve.

Baha Mousa Inquiry

Viscount Slim Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, of course, I agree entirely with the noble Lord. The Army has been very open and transparent and we should congratulate it on that. The noble Lord said that this is a sad day for the Army. It is a very sad day for a small number of people who behaved outrageously. The Army should be congratulated on the very open and transparent way in which it has reacted. The noble Lord said that he was the Chief of the General Staff when the noble Lord, Lord Browne, set up the report. I compliment the noble Lord, who is not in his place, on setting up this very important report.

[Viscount Slim]

My Lords, I hope that noble Lords will not misunderstand me. My reading of this is that the behaviour was unforgivable, but we are not discussing the behaviour of professional interrogators. Interrogation is a subtle art. There is the problem of when discomfort becomes torture. If we were to introduce draconian legislation in relation to the interrogation processes and techniques that our professionals use, we would be in danger of hamstringing ourselves in obtaining the intelligence that is needed. We have to be very careful here because if we do not get the intelligence that we need—often time is of the essence—another of our airliners will fall out of the sky and a chunk of one of our cities or utilities will be destroyed. Certainly, if there is a threat of an action about to take place involving some chemical mixture which puts the population at risk, the interrogation teams, who are very professional—there are strict rules—must not be hamstrung so that they cannot get the relevant information. This is a very delicate subject but national security is paramount. Under the very careful rules that apply, we have to make certain that the interrogation system in our country gets the vital information that saves lives and stops terrorist and criminal activity.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Viscount makes a very important point and I quite agree with him. The ability to seek and obtain intelligence from detainees is too important but we will always seek to ensure that it is done within the constraints of the Geneva conventions. The UK Armed Forces are at all times subject to English criminal law. MoD policy reflects applicable international law, including prohibitions on torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.