Armed Forces Bill

Lord Astor of Hever Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (The Countess of Mar)]

My Lords, on a procedural matter, I remind noble Lords that with grouped amendments it is only the first speaker who moves his amendment; the remaining Members speak to their amendments and then move them when they are called by the Lord Speaker.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, this grouping contains a large number of amendments relating to the Armed Forces covenant. I shall respond to each in turn, but I should first like to make some general comments which have a bearing on several of the amendments, so I ask for your Lordships’ patience.

In the light of points made by noble Lords during this and previous debates on Clause 2, I should like to place on record the Government’s commitment to taking a number of specific actions in preparing the annual report on the Armed Forces covenant. We recognise the concern that the Bill that does not include a provision that will oblige the Secretary of State to cover any matters relating to the Armed Forces covenant beyond the fields of healthcare, education and housing, and that it does not oblige him or her to engage with any other parties in exercising his or her judgment in what issues to cover. Our intention is for the report to be wide ranging, based on consultation and drawing on the input of an objective and expert group, the covenant reference group. However, noble Lords have sought strong guarantees that key issues of interest to the Armed Forces community will indeed be covered.

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[Lord Newton of Braintree]

Would the Minister consider a very brief question as being in order at this stage? I note what he says about the Localism Bill and will reflect on it. However, is he aware that the Parliamentary Ombudsman cannot consider complaints from servicemen or families because the ombudsman is subject to what is called the MP filter? He or she will take references only from an MP.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I was not aware of that. I think that the best way for me to handle my noble friend’s question is to write to him on this issue, and I will make sure that all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate are copied in on it.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am sorry to intervene on the Bill and thank the noble Lord for giving way. He made a statement in reply to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel. He said that the usual channels had come to an agreement that there should be voting at Third Reading but that that would not set a precedent. If there is voting at Third Reading, surely that must set a precedent. How will he and other people prevent reference being made to what will be a precedent?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, as I understand it, this is a one-off arrangement that will not be repeated.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I want to follow up on the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Newton, a couple of moments ago. When the Minister confirms that representations to the Parliamentary Ombudsman must come via an MP, will he recognise that, although it would create a special category for the Armed Forces, members of those forces already give up their right to lobby and to act politically in a public fashion pursuing such a case, as is the natural right of all British citizens? That does not necessarily disengage them from party-political membership but it does disengage them from party-political or public-political activity. They are therefore caught between a demand that they go via a route that could be interpreted as lobbying an MP and, on the other hand, the necessity for representations to the Parliamentary Ombudsman to be via that very route. Will the Minister bear that in mind and keep an open mind on it so that, if he finds that they are thus disadvantaged, a special category can be made available for members of the Armed Forces to go directly to the Parliamentary Ombudsman?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

The noble Lord, and indeed my noble friend, raise a very important point. I assure the noble Lord that the letter that my noble friend receives will be a very thorough and well thought-out response.

I have spoken at length both to set out the Government’s new commitments and to respond carefully to a wide variety of amendments. I hope that I have indicated our determination that the annual report on the Armed Forces covenant should be comprehensive yet flexible, based on consultation but with ultimate responsibility left where it belongs with Ministers. On this basis, I ask the noble and gallant Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I am sorry to persist in this but the Companion to the Standing Orders, as I understand it, states that there should be no votes on matters that have been discussed at Report. I cannot understand why the usual channels can be allowed to override what is already in the Companion. It is the Companion and it does not matter what the usual channels say about what they want or see as convenient. They cannot be allowed to override the Companion to the Standing Orders. We are progressing along a dangerous road. If it can be done in this instance, surely it can be done in any instance as the precedent will be set. The Government ought to take the advice of the Clerks and others before they pursue this.

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[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I certainly will not repeat the powerful arguments advanced by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, when she moved her amendment. However, when the issue was debated in Committee, the Minister said in reply that the Government recognised that inquests were an important element of the Armed Forces covenant. He referred to the substantial number of casualties in Afghanistan and said that he fully expected the matter to be covered in the annual report. He went on to say that he could also imagine a happier time when the operation of the inquest system would be of less concern to the Armed Forces community because we might not be involved in deployed operations or suffering fatalities. In other words, the issue of inquests was not likely to be another “enduring topic”, to use a government phrase, on a par with healthcare, housing and education.

I do not share the view that the Government can reject the amendment in quite the way that they did when it was discussed in Committee. We are likely to be involved in Afghanistan for a few more years and, sadly, the issue of inquests will continue to be high on the agenda for some time. In addition, numbers of serving personnel die on active service but not overseas, so it may be optimistic to believe that a time will come when inquests need not be covered in the annual Armed Forces covenant report. However, since we have an Armed Forces Bill every five years, if it was felt that the operation of inquests was no longer an issue of concern in five years’ time or at some later date, this perfectly reasonable amendment could be removed in the next or a subsequent Armed Forces Bill. I hope that the Minister will feel able to give a more sympathetic response to the amendment than was the case in Committee.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, in Grand Committee and again today, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has given a detailed and moving account of the problems that have been encountered by bereaved service families in the course of a coroner’s inquest. It is very sad that any family should feel at the end of an inquest that their burdens have been made even heavier, but this is particularly regrettable for the family of someone who has given their life for their country.

We are focusing on the Bill today and time does not permit me to detail the progress that has been made. As the noble Baroness knows, Parliament is kept well informed through quarterly ministerial Statements. However, I can understand her wish to ensure that this subject is not allowed to drift away from public attention. I hope that my remarks on the first group of amendments have offered her reassurance, in two ways.

First, the commitment that the Secretary of State would have regard to the whole range of subjects included within the scope of the Armed Forces covenant, as set out in the guidance document published on 16 May, includes the operation of the inquest system for bereaved service families. Secondly, I draw the noble Baroness’s attention to the membership of the covenant reference group, which will now be consulted on the subjects to be covered in the annual report. It includes both the Royal British Legion, which has campaigned strongly on this issue, as the noble Baroness said, and the War Widows’ Association of Great Britain, which brings together many of those who unfortunately have first-hand knowledge of inquests. I am therefore confident that the Secretary of State will receive very clear advice on this aspect of the covenant.

I recognise that the noble Baroness is not just concerned about inquests for serving personnel. She also envisages drawing together information from any inquests into the deaths of former service men and women that might perhaps show a common thread. I can understand how data of this kind could be valuable, and we are always interested in developing our knowledge of the health outcomes of veterans, where this is practical. However, I would point out to the noble Baroness that the field of healthcare is already mentioned in the clause. Beyond that, I would not wish to commit to any more detailed provision in relation to inquests without a much clearer idea of what is feasible.

[Viscount Slim]

Perhaps I could respectfully make two remarks. First, the noble Baroness was quite right to say that the time for investigation into these matters has passed. I made gentle inquiries through discussions here and there and there is actually no plan for increased casualties and therefore this timetable will naturally go on. I hope the noble Lord and his officials have considered this awful business if casualties were to increase at a faster rate and therefore all the timings would not be kept up.

Secondly, to those who wish—as we all wish and hope—that there is no requirement for inquests one day in our lives, I would merely say that history shows that since the end of World War II there has only been one year that a British serviceman has not been killed in action.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

The noble Viscount, Lord Slim, makes an important point. We have no plans for increased casualties, and indeed the aspiration is to be out of Afghanistan in a combat role by the end of 2014. If, unfortunately, there are increased casualties, we will respond to that as best we can.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

I am most grateful to the Minister for his reply, and I want to put on record my thanks to him for the time he spent with me before the debate today and for the freely available contact I have had with his officials. They have gone to great lengths to answer my questions. However, I reiterate that I believe that this provision should be in the Bill. I urge the Government to pick up the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that in the unlikely event of it being surplus to requirements, it could subsequently be removed. But, at this stage, I will withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Dannatt]

My Lords, I contribute at this stage of our proceedings because Amendments 6 and 7 are critical to this whole debate. They encompass our concern about incorporating the responsibilities of all government departments, and our desire to make sure that the serving and veteran communities are both looked after adequately and properly, within all the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. These two amendments really get at the substance of what this debate and this stage of the Bill is about.

That said, I would be quite happy if the second issue to which I draw attention—how these things are implemented—was attended to in a way that I, at least, was comfortable with. There has been discussion this afternoon of the possibility of looking at the position of chairman of the covenant reference group. I am firmly of the view that, as distinguished and expert as that person might be, a three-star civil servant in the Cabinet Office is not the right person, either by experience or position, to be the chairman of the covenant reference group. I do not believe that a person like that can inspire the confidence and trust to which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has referred twice this afternoon.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, made some reference in speaking to his amendment to the idea of a commissioner having more favour that we had perhaps originally thought. If there is an absolute desire in the Government not to accept any changes to the Bill—I personally regret that, given the amount of energy, time and enthusiasm that has got us here so far—and it is their determined position not to accept any amendments, and if there is the possibility of going down a secondary legislation route, then, if a chairman of the covenant reference group of a thoroughly senior and independent standing were put in place, I, for one, would have confidence that the substance was going to be delivered and that I would be comfortable with that process.

I have been talking about the military covenant—now the Armed Forces covenant—fairly volubly for the past five years. I am delighted by where we have reached. Let us not fall at the last fence. Let us really bang this one home. The soldiers, sailors, marines, their families and veterans want to see this absolutely nailed for all time so that they know they will be looked after now and in the future. All Members of this House and all political parties would wish to support that. Let us not pass this up by being parsimonious against a tight parliamentary timescale. Please, find a way to do it—it can be done.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, noble Lords have made some very important points on both amendments this afternoon. I have listened very carefully. I repeat what I said earlier on the first group. Noble Lords wish to be absolutely clear as to which parts of government participated in the process of preparing the report and what position they have taken. My ministerial colleagues and I have already indicated that the Secretary of State will consult widely and will identify the source of the evidence and opinions that we include in the report. We have also noted that the annual report will be laid before Parliament on behalf of and with the approval of the whole Government. Nevertheless, I can go further by giving an undertaking that the Secretary of State will consult all UK government departments with a significant role in the delivery of services to serving personnel, veterans and their families and the three devolved Administrations. In the annual report he or she will confirm that he or she has consulted other government departments and the devolved Administrations, and will identify their contributions in the published report.

Having said all this, I will reflect again over the next day or two with my ministerial colleagues. I have asked my officials to do the same across government as a matter of urgency. I will be in touch with the noble and gallant Lord as soon as possible.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to this amendment, which is clearly one of the most important in this part of the Bill. The Minister read out yet again the assurances that he wished to have on the record. I recognise that they are. However, he failed to repeat that this Government cannot commit their successors. We all know that. I feel very strongly that the only way in which successor Governments may be committed is by an Act of Parliament. They often overturn them but that is the right way to go. Therefore, I urge the Minister to continue in the way in which he has been moving, towards finding an acceptable compromise on which we can all come together. This is a non-partisan point and a very important Bill. We have only one year in five in which we can do something about it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, the Minister had the support of the whole House in his response to the previous amendment, and I hope that he will also give a helpful response to this one.

As has been said, our Armed Forces are United Kingdom forces. For that reason alone, it would surely be undesirable not to try to ensure that special provision for service people is broadly the same across the United Kingdom. The amendment does not require the Secretary of State to do the impossible and ensure that special provisions made are broadly the same, but simply provides for the covenant report to state how the Secretary of State will seek to ensure that such provisions are broadly the same. This is an eminently reasonable and constructive amendment, and I hope that the Minister will give an equally constructive response.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, noble Lords who have spoken in support of Amendment 9 have voiced their disquiet at the prospect of variation between the different countries of the United Kingdom in the way that special provision or special treatment is applied. I have previously said to your Lordships that the Government are sympathetic to the principle of consistency. As noble Lords have pointed out, members of the Armed Forces serve the Crown and the whole of the United Kingdom, not a local council or the devolved Administrations. The Armed Forces covenant is with the nation, not with one part of it. All parts of government across the UK share the moral obligation to honour it.

Nevertheless, we must keep this in perspective. The terminology of a postcode lottery is emotive and sometimes used unfairly to describe the legitimate scope for local decisions about local services. There are many examples where that scope for local decision has led to better outcomes for members of the Armed Forces community, rather than allowing councils or Administrations to escape their obligations. The Government have no wish to stifle that local initiative or control everything from Whitehall by regulation.

One alternative to regulation is successful dialogue. Again, I have referred in the past to what dialogue has achieved across a range of different domains, such as the introduction of the new arrangements for scholarships for bereaved service children. Another example I gave was the new transition protocol for transferring the care of injured personnel from military to civilian services across all the countries of the United Kingdom. So I am not as pessimistic about the future as the noble Lord, Lord Empey. The noble Lord knows that the particular terms of the amendment, which would require the Government to include in the report a statement on how we would ensure that the provision is broadly the same across the UK, causes difficulty. That goes some way beyond what we envisage as the content of the annual report. Even if we accepted the underlying assumption that the UK Government should act in the way suggested, we would not necessarily have the answers available when the report was published.

In Grand Committee, the noble Lord invited the Government to reflect further on those matters, and we have. He used a very good phrase when he referred to his desire to connect every part of the UK to the report process. In that debate, I gave the noble Lord the assurance that, where the Secretary of State reaches the conclusion that special provision is justified, the annual report will attempt to take into account the position across the United Kingdom. We would take a wide view. I trust that that assurance, together with the further statements which I had made today about the report process, will give the noble Lord the assurance he seeks. I therefore ask him to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Empey]

I thank the Minister for his response. I understand that “postcode lottery” can be an emotive phrase, but he knows that neither I nor anyone else who has used it has done so with any sense of flippancy. It was used to convey the point that servicepeople serve all of us and that services that they need in unfortunate circumstances should be broadly equivalent or equal throughout the United Kingdom. I think that that is the general view.

I support the concept of dialogue. That is excellent and, so far, it is going fine. However, I can tell the Minister, because I know—I do not have to imagine it, we have it in black and white in Hansard in Stormont—that there can and could well be a difficulty. The reason why it is going so well at the moment is purely because of the individual personnel who happen to be in post at this time, but that will change from Administration to Administration.

I am trying to ensure, as other noble Lords are, that we avoid difficulty in the future. However, we accept, and I think everybody accepts, that one wants to do this with the minimum of regulation. However, the Minister needs to take it on board that if the Secretary of State for Defence decides that special provision has to be made, which is perfectly natural, the quid pro quo is that the Secretary of State has to be in a position to tell Parliament how it is going to be delivered. The Secretary of State for Defence is not the Minister who can deliver. That is a fact. It might be an inconvenient fact but it is nevertheless a fact.

All I am interested in is avoiding a problem in the future. I have no desire to create difficulties for the Minister or for the Government but I wish to ensure that difficulties are not created down the line and that an unseemly row starts over something that we would want to keep above that sort of level. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Tunnicliffe, tabled a similar amendment to Amendment 10 in Grand Committee. In response I assured your Lordships that I regarded Armed Forces advocates as an excellent idea and outlined the tasks they carried out in central government departments. I also mentioned the variety of roles which advocates or champions can and do play at local level in local authorities, NHS trusts or jobcentres. The form this took depended on the job to be done.

The issues surrounding this amendment have not changed. It is not the merits of local Armed Forces advocates that are in question but the need to legislate for their existence. Our approach is to spread good practice by demonstrating what advocates and other local initiatives are able to achieve. As the noble Lord pointed out, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, suggested in our earlier debate that it was precisely those local bodies which decline to appoint an advocate which were most likely to need one as they had not focused on the issues. I undertook to consider this point further. Having done so, I take rather the opposite view. I suggest that a local body which appoints an advocate, simply because it ticks a box or meets a legal requirement, is very unlikely to make effective use of that individual. This is not the right approach to stimulate genuine improvements at local level, and I ask the noble Lord not to press his amendment.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I am obviously somewhat disappointed at the Minister’s reply because although I accepted that he might well not be prepared to accept the amendment, I expressed the hope that he would be able to spell out in rather more detail the specific action that the Government intended to take to ensure that best practice is introduced and implemented. It does not seem to me that the Minister has really addressed that point in his reply. However, I will not pursue the matter any further at this stage and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 14. I waited until everyone had spoken on Amendment 13. This does not stop me saying that I agree entirely with all noble Lords who spoke on that amendment. I hope that the Minister will change his mind.

I will talk about a national defence medal. We have heard very poignantly about medals for gallantry, for campaigns and for being in the armed services. However, since the end of the Second World War there has been an inconsistency and an injustice in medallic recognition. Noble Lords have spoken about medals they and others received, but many people in the armed services have received no medals. I found some amazing cases in my research. The Minister talked earlier about spreading good practice. It would spread good practice if we had a national defence medal issued to those who served in the Armed Forces. I thank the Minister and his colleagues who have given us a lot of verbal and written information on the subject. One civil servant commented that there were 4 million such veterans. Not all would apply for the medal, but the fact that there are 4 million veterans shows that this is an incredible group of people to whom we owe a debt of honour. In the United States they would all be in a veterans’ organisation and very powerful politically. I am afraid that the only politics here is today in your Lordships' House.

A number of people do not support such a medal. This was also the case in Australia and New Zealand, where a very vocal minority opposed it. However, the medal was introduced and I believe that it is very successful and appreciated. I feel that I am on a losing wicket in trying to get this incorporated into the Bill. However, at the very least we should have a medal review that is independently chaired, transparent and open and that consults veterans. Sadly, the MoD review, which has been going on for a long time, is seen by veterans as flawed. The draft report that has been wandering around for a long time has been greeted with little enthusiasm.

The reality is that of 7,500-plus e-petitions on the government website, the one requesting a national defence medal ranks 46th. Of the 60-plus e-petitions that affect the Ministry of Defence, the one calling for the introduction of a national defence medal comes top. It would be extremely popular and symbolic if this came as part of the five-year review of the Armed Forces Bill. The cost would be about £2.50 per medal. Is that what is stopping this? Why can we not have this symbolic recognition of people's service to their country? I hope that the Minister will at least pursue an independently chaired committee that will be transparent. It may in the end decide not to have a medal, but at least the veterans will see that the decision has been made transparently and not in the back rooms of power.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the subject of medals, the rules about accepting and wearing them, and the possible introduction of a national defence medal. A number of amendments on medals were tabled in Committee. They prompted a lively debate about an issue that clearly raises a great deal of interest. The discussion today has emphasised this. As my noble friend Lord De Mauley explained in Grand Committee, decisions on the institution of medals and honours, and the acceptance of foreign honours, are ultimately a matter for Her Majesty the Queen. The general approach adopted is that permission to accept and wear foreign medals should be given only exceptionally for services, whether civil or military, to the Crown. Her Majesty is advised on the award and wearing of medals by the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals.