Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Kirsty Blackman

Tuesday 23rd April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

The recent announcements on fit note reform are just the latest in a long string of attacks on the most vulnerable people in society. Sick and disabled people are being vilified, when, as the Joseph Rowntree Foundation points out, almost two thirds of those living in destitution live with a chronic health condition or a disability. The UK Government are continuing their track record in failing, and making life more difficult for, disabled people. Does the Secretary of State understand how much more difficult these changes will make people’s lives?

[Victoria Atkins]

These reforms are being brought forward because of a simply unsustainable rise in the number of people being given fit notes so that they cannot re-enter the world of work. We want to support people into work, not only because we believe that it is the best way to help them to recover, but because it helps us to fund the NHS. It is funded by people who work and pay their taxes. Again, I draw the hon. Lady’s attention to matters a little closer to home; sadly, Scotland’s record on health is very difficult to read and it includes the worst level of drug deaths in Europe. I encourage her to concentrate on how the SNP is running health services in its local area.

Finance (No. 2) Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Kirsty Blackman

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th May 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman]

Like the Labour party, the SNP will not oppose this measure. These are positive changes. Particularly on EMI, the Government have listened to what companies are asking for, and making some of requested changes is important, particularly when it may not have been the Government’s initial intention to dos so. They have listened to the additional information that has come in and made that change as a result of the response from companies.

There are two sides to what happens in relation to employee share schemes. There is the experience that employers and companies have in relation to whether they are an EMI or a CSOP—it looks like that will be smoother for companies. There is also the experience that the employee has, and whether or not accessing those schemes works for their lives and what they intend to do. The right hon. Member for Knowsley (Sir George Howarth) has put forward a ten-minute rule Bill on the share incentive plan scheme, trying to ensure that lower-income workers can get access to the scheme and that the length of time that an employee is required to stay at the company before they can access their share ownership and benefits is reduced from five years to three years.

We know that the younger workforce these days are moving companies more quickly, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Younger people are seeing the benefits of working for a number of different companies and building up a significant breadth of experience across companies, and they are more likely to job hop than my parents’ generation. As I said, it is not a bad thing; it is just a change in the way society works. As a result, share ownership schemes, in the way that they are written and organised by the Government, are less attractive to the younger workforce than they were to previous generations.

My key question is: what are the Government’s intentions for employee share ownership? Are they hoping to encourage and increase the amount of employees taking part in such schemes? It seems to me that 4,700 small and medium companies feeling good about EMI access is not all that many, and other companies that could benefit from it that may find there is not much in the way of interest among their employees because of the restrictions. Do the Government hope to make it more attractive for employees, or simply to make it slightly easier and more attractive for employers? If they hope to make it more attractive for employees, are they looking at the current restrictions and restraints on employee share ownership schemes and whether they work for the workforce of today, as opposed to just the workforce of yesterday?

I am incredibly positive about employee share ownership schemes. I do not necessarily think that every single company should use them, and I would certainly not push every single company in that direction. However, all companies that want to use them should have the flexibility to access them without red tape and bureaucracy, so removing some of that is helpful. Companies will be able to use them only if they get buy-in from their employees, which they can do only if the employee sees the benefit of taking part. It would be helpful to have an idea of the Government’s intentions—whether they plan to do any wider consultation or check in on the numbers, whether they have targets for employee share ownership and whether they plan to extend and increase it. It seems to me from clauses 16 and 17 that the Government are positive towards the schemes, but they have not gone quite far enough in increasing accessibility.

[Victoria Atkins]

If I may, I will answer the hon. Lady’s questions first. For the two schemes to work, we must help employers and employees to administer them and take advantage of them respectively. This is why we have made the changes that I set out.

We are mindful of the changes in the employment market that the hon. Lady described, and we looked very carefully at the gig economy. The issue is that many workers in the gig economy are not employed for tax purposes, so they fall outside the scope of EMI. Extending eligibility to the self-employed would go beyond the aims and objectives of EMI, because it is about employees having not just an earned income interest, but a full share investment in the business for which they work. There are complexities here, but we are mindful of how the modern economy is taking shape. That is why we will be launching a call for evidence shortly on non-discretionary share schemes, which are open to all employees of companies that opt in. I encourage her and others to participate in that call for evidence when it is launched.

The hon. Member for Ealing North asked about compliance, and he will know that HMRC takes compliance very seriously. Indeed, we have increased funding for compliance activities across the board. We want to ensure not only that officers can deal with particular forms of tax evasion or criminal activity, but that they can offer results across the board. I know that the answer will come to me shortly, but I commit to writing to the hon. Gentleman if it does not fall upon my shoulders before I sit down. I am very willing to take questions or interventions from any colleague on this matter, particularly from colleagues on this side of the House, because we fundamentally believe in entrepreneurship and capitalisation. We believe in spreading prosperity and wealth across the workforce, so it is not just the business owners but the employees that must profit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Victoria Atkins]

I am happy to be able to tell the hon. Lady that they were exempted. In terms of costs, I see the word “negligible” in the Exchequer impact assessment, so that is the administrative side effect of what we are trying to achieve to support efforts to train young people in Wales, which are commendable and for which I welcome the support. Clause 27, which I do not think we will debate, allows us to clarify the treatment of devolution payments via statutory instrument, which we are keen to do. Indeed, the hon. Lady will know that significant work with the Scottish Government, led by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, is going on across the Treasury to underpin the arrangements for the fiscal framework.

[Kirsty Blackman]

Let me make sure that I understand what the Minister is saying. The Welsh payments were considered exempted, and this measure is just the legislation catching up with the treatment that they were being given anyway. Is that correct?

[Victoria Atkins]

I can confirm that.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 26 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 28

Qualifying care relief: increase in individual’s limit

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kirsty Blackman]

I have a quick question on Government amendment 4. Will it change the application of schedule 2 and proposed new schedule 1C to the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992, or does it simply clarify what is intended anyway under those schedules? The amendment specifically mentions the property not being held for pensions purposes. I am trying to understand whether that was the original intention, or whether the amendment changes the intent of schedule 2 and of schedule 1 to the TCGA.

[Victoria Atkins]

On the simplification point, the replacement of the lower-rate band with the new tax-free amount supports our long-standing goal of a modern and simpler tax system. This is a simplification for low-income discretionary trusts, as income within the tax-free amount will no longer be taxed as it arises. The change also simplifies calculations when income distributions are made. The consultation last year outlined that where discretionary trusts make income distributions, the existing 45% credit given to beneficiaries with that income would remain, as would the continued need for trustees to top up their payments to HMRC to match that credit when the distribution is made. I am told that the Chartered Institute of Taxation agreed with that proposition, and the Association of Taxation Technicians saw that as largely a question of timing and did not see a particular issue with the principle.

The hon. Member for Ealing North asked about vulnerable beneficiary trusts. The measures are a simplification for those trusts, as for any other low-income trust, as there will no longer be the need to elect to have income taxed as if for vulnerable beneficiaries. Instead, the income will simply not be taxed as it arises. Most vulnerable beneficiary trusts are, indeed, discretionary trusts, and as I said earlier, both the Chartered Institute of Taxation and the Association of Taxation Technicians have opined on this. The measure does not affect the need for trust beneficiaries to consider their tax reliability on their trust income. On the hon. Member for Aberdeen North’s question, the amendment clarifies our intentions.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Kirsty Blackman

Committee of the whole House
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Victoria Atkins]

I thank all Members for a most interesting debate. It is not often that the public—if people have been watching this debate—are able to see us scrutinise measures in this way. Committee debates often take place in rooms off the Committee Corridor, and although they are sometimes available for public consumption, it is very helpful when they happen on the Floor of the House. I am genuinely grateful to all who have contributed.

I am afraid I cannot resist picking up, very gently, the points made by Opposition Members about the role that my hon. Friends have been playing during this Committee stage in scrutinising legislation. This is exactly what Members of Parliament are supposed to do. Their job—your job, dare I say it to Members—is to scrutinise our legislation, and I welcome that. It may well be that Opposition Members have highlighted a fundamental difference between the Labour and Scottish National parties and the Conservative party: we have the intellectual self-confidence to hold these debates, and to debate policy. [Laughter.] Opposition Members may laugh, but we know how difficult internal debate has been in the Labour party. It has meant inquiries by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, it has meant a Labour MP being protected by the police in order to attend her own party’s conference, and I understand that a member of that party is currently being ostracised because her views on what a woman is differ from those of the Leader of the Opposition. So we on this side of the House do welcome debate, and we are able to conduct it properly and professionally within the rules of this Chamber.

[Kirsty Blackman]

rose—

[Victoria Atkins]

I will not give way, because I know it has been a busy day for the SNP. [Interruption.] I will not say any more.

My right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse) rightly raised the subject of the corporation tax increase, but so, significantly, did Opposition Members. They have made much play of the tax rate, and I thought it important just to remind everyone why we are where we are.

The Government borrowed an additional £14 billion in 2020-21 and 2021-22 to fund the response to covid. I cannot imagine that any Opposition Member—including those on the Front Bench—actually disagreed with, for example, the furlough scheme, which protected more than 11 million jobs and companies throughout the country. However, that enormous sum has to be repaid. In response to the energy crisis, the Government have provided just over £100 billion to help households and businesses with higher energy bills in 2022-23 and 2023-24. That has contributed to a significant increase in our public debt, which is forecast to reach 100.6% of GDP in 2022-23, the highest level since the 1960s.

That has happened precisely because the Government have responded to the pandemic, to the international crisis in Ukraine and, importantly, to the knock-on effects that that has had on our cost of living. I cannot imagine that Labour Members really begrudge the support that we are providing—more than £3,000 for every household, including households in their constituencies, to help those people with the cost of living.

However, as my right hon. Friend rightly pointed out, we also believe in the principles of sound money. In the autumn statement, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor explained that some very difficult decisions had to be made. Indeed, even with the increase in the rate to 25% that was originally announced by the Prime Minister when he was Chancellor, we will still have a corporate tax system that remains one of the most supportive of business anywhere in the world, with the lowest headline rate of corporation tax in the G7, the joint most generous capital allowances regime for plant and machinery in the OECD, thanks to the full expensing in this Bill, and the joint highest uncapped headline rate of R&D tax relief support for large companies in the G7. That is in addition to the features of the corporate tax system that make the UK an attractive location as a global hub, including having the largest tax treaty network in the world, mitigating the risk of double taxation. I point out for the sake of clarification that at 25%, the rate of corporation tax will be lower than at any time before 2010 under the last Labour Government.

I will move on to the provisions in relation to pillar two. My right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) raised some important questions, including about capital flight. We have looked carefully at this and I understand why she is asking about this. I hope she will be reassured that this has been at the forefront of negotiators’ minds as we have looked at this agreement. The rules contain defensive measures to prevent capital flight. If a country does not implement them, the top-up tax will be collected by other countries instead, so there is no incentive to move or escape from these rules.

My right hon. Friend also asked about the Chartered Institute of Taxation’s view that this measure might raise less than expected. Again, I hope she will be reassured that the costing for pillar two was certified by the Office for Budget Responsibility and published at the autumn statement. The estimates are that pillar two will raise £2 billion a year by 2027-28. This includes revenue arising from UK-headquartered groups that are subject to low tax on their foreign operations, the diminished incentive for groups to shift their profits out of the UK and the qualified domestic minimum tax.

My right hon. Friend also asked about Japan. It has passed its legislation and it is implementing this in April next year, three months after we are legislating for. I hope that that timeframe gives her some comfort. I also note that 40 countries have implemented or announced pillar two or a similar rule, and I am told that they make up around 60% of global GDP. It is precisely because of the interlocking nature of the rules that revenues will be taxed at 15%, no matter where they are shifted. I am going to move on to three new clauses that I have a feeling might be the cause of contention and therefore Divisions tonight, but I will happily write to the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) about her point on data licences, because I want to reassure her on that.

On new clause 1, the Government are committed to sharing expertise on implementation and to co-ordinating our efforts internationally. We are playing an important and active role in the design of pillar two rules and we are achieving the delicate balance between having rules that are effective in tackling profit shifting and being proportionate. It would not be appropriate to provide a running commentary on international discussions ahead of the agreed outcomes of these meetings, which are published by the OECD, including in the administrative guidance to the rules published in February. We therefore say that the new clause is unnecessary and we urge colleagues to vote against it if it is pushed to a Division.

New clause 3 would require the Government to conduct a review of the UK’s business tax regime. This is business as usual for the Treasury and the Government. We have done, and continue to undertake, significant work to understand the impact of tax incentives on business investment. The tax plan published at spring statement 2022 set out the Government’s vision for using the tax system to incentivise investment in capital assets and in research and development, and we have set out detailed information on the Exchequer, macroeconomic and business impacts of these policies at the Budget. The evidence for this continuing work lies in both the full expensing policy in clause 7 and the increase to the annual investment allowance in clause 8, both of which I trust the Opposition will support.

I remind colleagues that the full expensing policy is equivalent to a £27 billion tax cut for businesses over three years. It saves eligible businesses 25p in tax for every £1 they invest. That is the Conservative approach to sound money, and that is what we will do to help grow our economy. The impact of our plan to halve inflation, to grow the economy and to reduce debt is demonstrated in the rising confidence of finance executives, as reported in the recent Deloitte survey. Do not listen to the doom-mongers opposite; listen to British businesses.

Turning to new clause 6, the Government expect the energy profits levy to raise just under £26 billion between 2022-23 and 2027-28, helping to fund the vital and unprecedented cost of living support orchestrated by this Government. This includes the impact of the investment allowance. HMRC regularly publishes estimates for the cost of various tax reliefs where relevant data is available and identifiable in tax returns. For example, estimates for the cost of the investment allowance against the supplementary charge and the first-year allowance of the ringfencing regime are regularly included in that publication. HMRC intends to make a cost estimate for the investment allowance against the energy profits levy in due course.

We have always been clear that we want to see significant investment from the sector to help protect our energy security. Oil and gas accounted for 77% of the UK’s energy demand last year and, as set out in the energy security strategy, the North sea will still be a foundation of our energy security, so it is right that we continue to encourage investment in oil and gas. Supporting our domestic oil and gas sector is not incompatible with net zero 2050, as we know we will need oil and gas for decades to come.

As the energy crisis in the UK has shown, constraining supply and dramatically increasing prices does not eliminate demand for oil and gas. A faster decline in domestic production would mean importing more oil and gas at greater expense, potentially resulting in additional emissions, especially in the case of gas.

On the climate targets, the Treasury carefully considers the impact of all measures on the UK’s climate change commitments as a matter of course. It should be noted that the Government have made the UK a climate leader and have reduced emissions faster than any G7 country over the last 30 years. We are on track to deliver our carbon budgets and on course to reach net zero by 2050, creating jobs and investment across the UK while reducing emissions.

I hope I have been able to reassure Members. I have genuinely enjoyed the scrutiny they have brought to this important piece of legislation. I urge the Committee to reject new clauses 1 to 3 and 6 to 10, and amendment 26. For the reasons I set out at the beginning, I commend Government amendments 12 to 13 and 15 to 20.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 5 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 6 to 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 1

Relief for Research and Development

Amendment made: 14, page 283, line 27, at end insert—

‘(3) In section 1057 (R&D relief for SMEs: tax credit only available where company is a going concern), after subsection (4C) insert—

“(4D) For the purposes of this section, where a company (“A”) is a member of the same group as another company (“B”) and A’s latest published accounts were not prepared on a going concern basis by reason only of a relevant group transfer, the accounts are to be treated as if they were prepared on a going concern basis.

(4E) For the purposes of this section—

(a) a “relevant group transfer” is a transfer, within the accounting period to which the latest published accounts relate, by A of its trade and research and development to another member of the group mentioned in subsection (4D);

(b) A and B are members of the same group if they are members of the same group of companies for the purposes of Part 5 of CTA 2010 (group relief).”’ —(Victoria Atkins.)

This amendment would make an amendment to section 1057 of the Corporation Tax Act 2009 that is equivalent to the amendments being made by the Bill to sections 104T and 1046 of that Act.

Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 11 to 15 and 121 to 125 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 14 agreed to.

Clauses 126 and 127 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 15 agreed to.

Clauses 128 to 173 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 174

Amount of covered tax balance

Amendment made: 12, page 119, leave out lines 4 to 8.—(Victoria Atkins.)

This amendment omits Step 4 in clause 174(1). That Step is unnecessary as it duplicates the effect of provision in clauses section 175(2)(e) and 176(2)(i).

Clause 174, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 175 to 222 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 223

Adjustments

Amendment made: 13, page 163, line 19, at end insert—

‘(10) Where the covered tax balance of an investment entity includes an amount allocated to it under section 179(1) or 180(3)(a) (allocation of tax imposed under controlled foreign company tax regimes), only so much of its covered tax balance as is not comprised of amounts allocated under those sections is subject to adjustment under this section.’.—(Victoria Atkins.)

This amendment prevents adjustments being made to the covered tax balance of an investment entity in relation to amounts of controlled foreign company tax allocated to the entity (to avoid the same adjustments being effectively made twice).

Clause 223, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 224 to 260 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 16

Multinational top-up tax: transitional provision

Amendments made: 15, page 395, line 8, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—

‘“(a) assets are transferred from one member of a multinational group to another member of that group,

(aa) either—

(i) the Pillar Two rules do not apply to the transferor for the accounting period in which the transfer takes place, or

(ii) an election under paragraph 3(1) (transitional safe harbour) applies in relation to the transferor for that period, and’.

This amendment provides for the anti-avoidance provisions in relation to intragroup transfers to apply to transfers from a member of a multinational group until that member is fully subject to the Pillar Two regime.

Amendment 16, page 395, line 17, leave out “beginning of the commencement period” and insert “relevant time”.

This amendment is consequential on Amendment 15.

Amendment 17, page 395, line 19, leave out from “transfer,” to end of line 24 and insert “and”.

This amendment is consequential on Amendment 15.

Amendment 18, page 395, line 27, leave out from “assets” to end of line 32.

This amendment is consequential on Amendment 15.

Amendment 19, page 395, line 32, at end insert—

‘(3A) For the purposes of this paragraph “the relevant time” means the later of—

(a) the date of the transfer, and

(b) the commencement of the first accounting period in which—

(i) the Pillar Two rules apply to the transferee, and

(ii) an election under paragraph 3(1) (transitional safe harbour) does not apply in relation to the transferee.

(3B) Where the relevant time is after the date of the transfer—

(a) the value of the assets at the relevant time is to be adjusted to reflect—

(i) capitalised expenditure incurred in respect of the assets in the period between the date of the transfer and the relevant time, and

(ii) amortisation and depreciation of the assets that, had the transfer not occurred, would have been recognised by the transferor if the transferor had continued to use the accounting policies and rates for amortisation and depreciation of the assets previously used, and

(b) the tax paid amount in relation to the transfer of the assets is to be adjusted to reflect the matters referred to in paragraph (a)(i) and (ii).’

This amendment is consequential on Amendment 15.

Amendment 20, page 398, leave out lines 36 and 37 and insert—

‘(3A) Information derived from qualified financial statements as to revenue or profit (loss) before income tax must be adjusted—

(a) as the information was adjusted for the purposes of its inclusion in a qualifying country-by-country report in relation to the territory, or

(b) if the information was not included in such a report, as it would have been adjusted had it been included in such a report.

See also paragraph 6 which provides for circumstances in which further adjustments are required to profit (loss) before income tax and circumstances in which adjustments are required to qualifying income tax expense.’—(Victoria Atkins.)

This amendment makes it clear that in determining whether the transitional safe harbour provisions apply for the purposes of multinational top-up tax, revenue and profits are to be as stated in a country-by-country report, or adjusted as if they were included in such a report.

Schedule 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 261 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 17 agreed to.

Clauses 262 to 275 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 18 agreed to.

Clauses 276 and 277 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause 1

Statement on efforts to support implementation of the Pillar 2 model rules

‘(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must, within three months of this Act being passed, make a statement to the House of Commons on how actions taken by the UK Government since October 2021 in relation to the implementation of the Pillar 2 model rules relate to the provisions of Part 3 of this Act.

(2) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must provide updates to the statement at intervals after that statement has been made of—

(a) three months;

(b) six months; and

(c) nine months.

(3) The statement, and the updates to it, must include—

(a) details of efforts by the UK Government to encourage more countries to implement the Pillar 2 rules; and

(b) details of any discussions the UK Government has had with other countries about making the rules more effective.’—(James Murray)

This new clause would require the Chancellor to report every three months for a year on the UK Government’s progress in working with other countries to extend and strengthen the global minimum corporate tax framework for large multinationals.

Brought up, and read the First time.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Victoria Atkins and Kirsty Blackman

Monday 22nd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

T4. I have raised one constituent’s case with the UK Government 13 times; it relates to the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme. I still do not know whether my constituent’s case is being progressed under the Afghan relocations and assistance policy or ACRS. Neither does he, and nor do his family; they are eligible for both schemes, but we do not know under which one his case is being progressed. Please could the Minister ensure that UK Visas and Immigration has answers to give Members and our constituents—and that individuals, particularly in Afghanistan, are getting updates about what is happening?

[The Minister for Afghan Resettlement (Victoria Atkins)]

The hon. Lady will know that I cannot answer that question on the Floor of the House, but I am very happy to take the name of her constituent afterwards. I have to emphasise, however, that if people remain in Afghanistan, as I have set out on the Floor of the House and in my “Dear colleague” letter, we simply cannot casework them at the moment in the way that parliamentarians would expect, because of the security situation in Afghanistan.