Lords Spiritual (Women) Bill

Debate between Tony Baldry and Sarah Newton

Monday 19th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Tony Baldry]

There are some excellent members of the Roman Catholic Church in the other place, including recent Lord Great Chamberlains such as Lord Camoys, whose ancestors fought at Agincourt. Nevertheless, others who are much more senior than me may well take what my hon. Friend has said as an indication that if there were ever a need to augment the galaxy of talented Catholics in the other House, there would be a willing and, I am sure, very worthy volunteer.

Bishops have continued to contribute to our national decision making down the centuries, although, rightly, they played a much less prominent role as we moved into the modern era. The number of Lords Spiritual has remained at 26 since the Reformation. In 1847, when the passing of the Bishopric of Manchester Act created a 27th diocese, Parliament broke the ancient arrangement whereby all diocesan bishops immediately became Lords Spiritual in the House of Lords, and a queuing system became necessary. Today there are 40 English diocesan sees, five of which confer immediate entitlement to a writ of summons, while the other 35 confer entry to a queue according to seniority for the other 21 places.

There are those who might ask why we still have bishops in Parliament. That issue is much wider than the issues dealt with in this modest Bill, and there will be a range of views on it in both Houses. It is worth remembering, however, that the Wakeham report on reform of the House of Lords concluded:

“The Church of England should continue to be explicitly represented in the second chamber”,

although it added that

“the concept of religious representation should be broadened to embrace other Christian denominations, in all parts of the United Kingdom, and other faith communities.”

I think it fair to say that the Church of England supported that approach.

Earlier in the current Parliament, the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill resolved that

“bishops should continue to retain ex officio seats in the reformed House of Lords.”

Of course, the Committee was recommending the establishment of a considerably smaller second Chamber. It agreed

“that the number of reserved seats for bishops be set at 12 in a reformed House.”

That would have been proportionate to their present membership.

Speaking recently at a lunch in the Parliamentary Press Gallery, the Archbishop of Canterbury observed in response to a question:

“it is helpful to have an institution that thinks in terms of centuries rather than weeks, which considers the eternal as well as the temporal, the global as well as the local, the grassroots as well as the establishment.”

The House of Lords now has some 790 members, and I think that a total of 26 bishops—in fact, two archbishops and 24 bishops—focusing on the eternal, the global and the grass roots constitutes a worthy and useful addition to Parliament. Each of these bishops has a portfolio or policy area on which they focus. For example, there is a lead bishop for education, a lead bishop for welfare reform and a lead bishop on overseas development, and the bishops work hard at understanding their policy areas and how the Church of England might best make a contribution to policy development.

It is also worth remembering that the Church of England is part of the Anglican Communion. There are 37 other provinces in the Anglican Communion, mostly in the global south, mostly poor, and many in areas of war and persecution. We have a worldwide network of contacts and briefings different from that, say, of the Foreign Office, and through the archbishops’ and bishops’ membership of the House of Lords we are able to share the benefit of those briefings, intelligence and contacts with Parliament.

As Archbishop Justin observed when he spoke to the Parliamentary Press Gallery:

“We are, by tradition…a Christian society”.

He went on to say:

“The Church generally—and perhaps the Church of England especially—has influence in two ways. First, it is everywhere in England and it does the stuff we think Jesus wants done…Since 2008, the networks of food banks have been set up by the churches. Local churches…are involved in the renewal of the credit union movement, usually with debt counselling. We have chaplains in every prison, every unit of the armed services, every hospital, people living in every parish…we educate almost 1 million children a day, we bury the dead, we marry, we baptise, we care for those ignored, and the list goes on.”

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is making a very powerful speech. On geographical representation, does he agree that often bishops represent parts of our country that are under-represented in Parliament? My own Bishop of Truro does such a good job of representing remote rural communities in the Isles of Scilly and Cornwall, for example.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I think the whole House was grateful for the work done by the Bishop of Truro in co-chairing an inquiry by the all-party group on hunger and food poverty.

Archbishop Justin concluded that

“the Church of England remains one of the glues of society”,

and I would suggest it is a worthy glue to be included within the fabric of parliamentary life.

As my hon. Friend the Minister made clear, the provisions in the Bill before the House are straightforward. It is a two-clause Bill which, if passed, will mean that for a period of 10 years the most senior eligible female bishop will fill any vacancy that arises on the Bishops’ Bench for the 21 places in the House of Lords filled by seniority, in preference to the most senior eligible male bishop.

A helpful comment in the Bill’s explanatory note makes it clear that unless the law is changed, it will take “some years” before a newly appointed female diocesan bishop will be eligible to enter the House of Lords. Quite what “some years” means is hard to specify because the period between appointment and going into the Lords has varied greatly over the decades, depending on when retirements and other unexpected vacancies occur. In the past three Parliaments, it has ranged at times from less than four years to at one point more than seven. I think this House, as much as everywhere else in the country, would find it unacceptable if, having waited so long to get women bishops, we then had to wait perhaps the duration of a further Parliament before they started to reach the top of the queue.

Under the current law, the two Church of England archbishops and 24 of its other diocesan bishops are entitled to sit in the House of Lords as Lords Spiritual. This Bill enables women diocesan bishops to skip the queue, which, when all sees are filled, is 14 bishops long. It is a Bill which, I can assure the House, has the very broadest support across the Church of England. The Bishop of Lincoln, the Right Rev. Christopher Lowson, who is the diocesan bishop currently at the head of the queue—the bishop who, if the law were not changed, would be the next to enter the House of Lords—has with characteristic generosity welcomed the Bill and has observed:

“On the one hand, this is quite frustrating because greater Lincolnshire is under-represented in the House of Lords. However far more frustrating has been the wait for women to be able to be ordained bishop, and for an anachronism to be consigned to history. For that to happen completely, it is absolutely right that women bishops are fully represented in all levels of society, Parliament and the Church, and I look forward very much to seeing that happen.”

The campaigning group WATCH—which stands for Women and the Church—has over many years led the campaign for the ordination of women bishops. Before Christmas it issued a statement, saying it had

“always campaigned for women and men to be bishops on equal terms including as members of the House of Lords…Sometimes, however, equality is so far distant that some speeding up is necessary to make it happen within a reasonable time frame.”

WATCH went on to say:

“The Bill recognises the fact that for the first Diocesan bishops who are women this hasn’t been a level playing field and they won’t have had the same opportunities historically to fulfil their full and true calling.”

The Bishop of Leicester, who is convenor of the Lords Spiritual in the House of Lords, has made it clear that he believes that women bishops will “enrich and strengthen” the voice of the Lords Spiritual in the House of Lords.

As the Leader of the House made clear in business questions recently, if the Bill passes all its stages in the House today, the intention is for there to be sufficient time for the Lords to consider the Bill and for it to receive Royal Assent before Parliament is dissolved. As a result, when women start being consecrated as diocesan bishops, they will be able to take a place in the House of Lords straight away.

I very much support the Bill and commend it to the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Sarah Newton

Thursday 17th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

5. Whether any grants have been made from the first world war centenary cathedral repairs fund.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)]

Some £4.77 million has been allocated so far from the £20 million Government repair fund for cathedrals. So far, 22 cathedrals have benefited—18 Anglican and four Catholic.

[Sarah Newton]

I very much appreciate the grant made to Truro cathedral, and the fund’s recognition of the really important role that cathedrals such as Truro play in local civic and national life. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important to have an ongoing grant-making process to support the vital work of Truro cathedral and, indeed, of cathedrals all over the UK?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I agree with my hon. Friend. It is very good news that Truro has received money to repair the cathedral turrets, which were damaged during recent storms. I think we all agree that cathedrals, apart from being very important centres of religious worship, are centres for regeneration, civic pride and tourism potential. The maintenance and repair of our cathedrals is of course a national imperative.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Sarah Newton

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry]

The right hon. Gentleman is a former Treasury Minister, and I am sure that he will have understood from the substantive answer that I gave at the outset that the Chancellor and his officials are considering carefully the submissions and representations that we put to them. They obviously want to consider the legal implications of a VAT exemption just for alterations to listed places of worship. Discussions with officials are ongoing, and the dialogue is constructive and positive.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

7. Of the 312 churches across the diocese of Truro, 56 are carrying out repairs and alterations this year. The proposed VAT changes would add £405,000 to the bill. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that churches such as St John’s in Truro that are making alterations to enable greater use of their facilities by community groups such as the Truro Homeless Action Group might be deterred by the prospect of having to find an extra £5,000 just for the VAT?

[Tony Baldry]

I have visited St John’s; it does excellent work. This is a good example of the kind of alterations involving such humble things as toilets and kitchens that are being carried out to serve the wider community. As every colleague in the House will know, £5,000 is a lot of money to have to raise through jumble sales and coffee mornings, and such funds are all being raised by local people working voluntarily. We should not underestimate the impact of the change on our communities, should it go ahead.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Sarah Newton

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend makes his own point in his own way. Bishops were not arguing for the abolition of the cap; they were arguing for child benefit to be exempted because they believed that the cap was not flexible enough to be fair to those with large families or those in areas with high housing rental costs. May I say to my hon. Friend, who is an independent-minded Member of Parliament, that there are just 26 Lords Spiritual in a Chamber of nearly 800 Members and I suspect that all independent-minded Members of this House, wherever we sit, would think that from time to time it is no bad thing for the Lords Spiritual to rattle a few cages?

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

2. What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to ensure that cathedrals are able to access insurance.

[Tony Baldry]

The Church Commissioners are aware of the increasing demands that cathedrals are making on their insurance policies, especially as a consequence of metal theft. The majority of cathedrals are insured by Ecclesiastical Insurance and so far no cathedral has ever been refused any insurance claim by Ecclesiastical, which is working extremely hard with all cathedrals to assist in reducing the problem of metal theft.

[Sarah Newton]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that answer, because there has been alarming coverage in the press of cathedrals being unable to insure themselves. People in my constituency work very hard to raise the necessary funds to support Truro cathedral and its vital work in the community, so will my hon. Friend keep ensuring that cathedrals can afford insurance?

[Tony Baldry]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this issue. Cathedrals have not been immune from thefts within and without and only recently a silver cross was stolen from the Lady chapel in Manchester cathedral. Each time this happens, it puts up the costs of insurance in all cathedrals, including the much-loved Truro cathedral in my hon. Friend’s constituency. That is why we have to bear down on metal theft.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Sarah Newton

Thursday 19th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

10. How much funding the Church Commissioners have made available to cathedrals in the last year.

[Tony Baldry]

Next year the Church Commissioners will give Truro cathedral some £348,000 towards the operation and running of the dean and chapter, a 4% increase. The cathedrals building division will of course continue to look sympathetically on any specific request from Truro for support relating to the fabric of the cathedral.

[Sarah Newton]

I are grateful for that response to the discussions that we have been having. Truro cathedral plays a vital role in the city, not only through its ministry but through its contribution to quality of life and the local economy. I welcome the support that the Church Commissioners are giving to the cathedral, and I hope that they will continue to look favourably on the work that it is doing in its Aspire project.

[Tony Baldry]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Nowhere else in England are the early Celtic roots of Christianity so obvious as in Cornwall, with its profusion of local saints. Truro has the distinction of being the first entirely new cathedral foundation since the Reformation. Like other cathedrals, it plays an important part in the life of the local community and the county, and the Church Commissioners will continue to give the cathedral of Truro every possible support.

Social Care Funding

Debate between Tony Baldry and Sarah Newton

Thursday 10th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Sarah Newton]

My hon. Friend has been incredibly generous in giving way, and I am grateful to him. He is making an important point and I would like to underline it. As we have heard, the scale of the challenge facing the Government is so immense that we need short, medium and long-term solutions. At present, the Government face the challenges of deficit reduction and of other huge reforms taking place in our country, but it would be welcome if they set out in the White Paper a direction of travel and suggested proposals that could be achieved in the short term and that addressed some of the issues while not seeking to solve the whole problem all at the same time. We would take a paced, building-block-type approach.

[Tony Baldry]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, but I think that we have all slightly lost track of the number of Green Papers, discussion documents and other things that we have had in relation to social care. What will be really important next spring is that we get a White Paper that has a summary that everyone can understand and that makes it very clear what will be the basic system for funding residential social care for the future. I think that that would be greeted in the House by a quick rendering of the “Hallelujah Chorus”.

Following my hon. Friend’s point, if the White Paper can set out the direction of travel for the rest, that would be good news. What we have seen all too often in the past is a discussion paper that concludes that the issue is so huge and so difficult that we have almost lost the will to live. Spring 2012 has to produce a White Paper with a clear commitment to the funding of long-term residential care, and then direction of travel for the rest is important.

Finally, I agree with the need to enhance the status of care workers. In my experience, the model adopted by many residential care homes has often been to recruit people from the Philippines or eastern Europe. The deal was that they came over, got trained, were often paid the minimum wage and, having been trained, worked in the national health service. Because the Government, perfectly understandably and quite rightly, are capping immigration from outside the European Union, it is no longer possible for nursing homes and residential care homes to recruit from the Philippines or outside the European Union, so we have to enhance the status of care workers, both in the NHS and in residential care homes.

On my patch, I have suggested to the chief executive of the Oxford University Hospitals NHS Trust—I am glad that he has responded positively—and others that we should consider setting up in Oxfordshire one of the new Government’s work academies, specifically for care workers. We need to ensure that far more people see care and working in the care sector as a valued profession that makes a real contribution to society. It needs a career path, with a national vocational qualification, training and proper involvement from further education colleges. The issue is of as much interest to the national health service as it is to residential care homes, because if those care homes have sufficient care workers it will be easier for discharges into them to take place. Moreover, we often need to ensure that the NHS has sufficiently well-motivated and well-qualified nursing care assistants. I hope that we will begin to see centres of excellence around the country that will train people as care workers, to ensure that we do not find ourselves in difficulties because nursing homes and residential care homes have to close because they cannot recruit qualified staff.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Sarah Newton

Thursday 30th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Tony Baldry]

Rising prices impact on us all, including those who undertake charitable and pastoral duties in the community. The Church of England will increase the mileage rate for staff and clergy, but we try to encourage them to travel by public transport wherever possible. I am sure I speak for all Members of the House when I say that we hope that charities and religious groups will endeavour to maintain their charitable and pastoral provision despite the change in fuel tax.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

5. What plans the Church Commissioners have for the future of St. Paul’s church, Truro and its hall.

[Tony Baldry]

The commissioners are actively working to find a suitable new use for St Paul’s church. Preparations are under way for placing it on the open market. The commissioners are not specifically involved with the hall, which is on a separate site owned by the Truro diocesan board of finance.

[Sarah Newton]

The church hall is a valuable community resource that is much appreciated by the homeless people of Truro, who receive a warm welcome and freshly cooked meals from the Truro homeless action group. Will my hon. Friend work with me to enable community groups to have the opportunity to secure the hall for the continued benefit of the community of Truro?

[Tony Baldry]

I entirely agree that Church of England buildings, whether they be churches or church halls, should wherever possible be open to the widest possible use by the greater community. That is part of the Church’s national mission, and I think that before any church or church building is declared redundant or sold every possible effort should be made to see that it is retained for community use. I will most certainly convey my hon. Friend’s comments to the diocese of Truro.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Tony Baldry and Sarah Newton

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

6. What recent representations the Church Commissioners have made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on VAT relief on the repair of church buildings after March 2011.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I gave a few moments ago to my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley).

[Sarah Newton]

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer, which will be very much appreciated in my constituency.

As one of Cornwall’s most visited landmarks, Truro cathedral inspires thousands of people each year with its architecture, music and faith. The cathedral’s future relies on a £4 million investment in a vision to restore and redevelop it. The savings in VAT will be significant. Will my hon. Friend join me in thanking volunteers up and down the country who, like those in my constituency, give their time and talent freely to fundraise for their places of worship?