Leaving the EU: Driving Licences

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 31st January 2024 Westminster Hall

[Dr Coffey]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I am sure his organisations have talked about the lack of people who are able to readily come forward, and the costs they are enduring. I know that has happened in my constituency. Investment was made in people but, understandably, after they pass a test and get this extra licence—because they did not take their driving test before 1997—they will quite often get a job, and while they might still be committed to community transport, that commitment will perhaps not be on the same scale.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the right hon. Lady for bringing this forward. One of the interventions earlier on referred to grandfather rights. Does she not agree that the punitive response of the EU will lead to problems that exist only on paper and in imagination? Does she also agree that someone who was qualified to drive in Europe on the basis of their driving test five years ago still goes through the same vigorous testing as now, and they should be entitled to drive, just as they were? She deserves to be congratulated on bringing this forward. She is absolutely right, and the more I think of the EU, the more I thank the Lord we are out of it.

[Dr Coffey]

I believe this is a real opportunity to adopt some sensible approaches and that that would be welcome across the House. I am conscious that the Government signed up to the Vienna convention in 2018. There are a number of things in there, and we had already adopted these regulations pretty much under EU regulations. However, we have the opportunity to make changes, and this is just like in the Vienna convention; we put in reservations against elements of that. We have put a reservation in to say that people do not have to wait for the pedestrian crossing to tell them to go; they can cross the road if there is no traffic coming. We have used our common sense for regulations affecting people in this country while still having a safe environment.

It is important to hear from the Minister how other, European and non-European countries go about this, in particular for D1 and C1. I come back to the real need to make it more straightforward for people to get D1 licences, because those sorts of services are closing down or are starting to have to be commercial. That is not what we need for our communities. I understand the challenge of the cost of living and the fact that volunteers’ time is precious. More and more people do want to volunteer. At the moment, we still have a threshold; quite a lot of people coming forward have had those licences before. But it is about the next generation. It is about that that community link, particularly with younger children. People have had to take tougher and tougher tests over the years—far tougher than the ones I took. I do not see why we should expect them to pay £2,000 or £3,000 more and go through all sorts of activities to do something that is frankly quite straightforward.

I turn now to C1 and the commercial and economic impact. I went on about this within Government for several years. When we left the European Union, I had the opportunity to look at regulations that either hindered or helped or were things that we might want to tweak. I saw this as a standout opportunity, as a result of my constituency experience of the community of Suffolk Coastal. That was also driven by my experience as Secretary of State for Work and Pensions at the time. Recently, as Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, I saw this as an opportunity for economic growth and to alleviate the impact on rural areas.

I have to say that my right hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) did listen. He put out a call for evidence, which I was pleased about. I think it reflects that the Department more broadly does not want to make any changes here, which disappoints me. That can be determined to some extent in some of the response, or the summary responses and aspects of the response, that the Government gave at the time.

But I have not given up, because I think this is the right thing to do. I think it is the right thing for our economic growth, and so do the majority of people who responded to the call for evidence. There were business people saying that this would be good. It would be much more efficient to run a single trip in a 4.6-tonne van than to be restricted to multiple trips, as it would require fewer journeys to transport the goods. It would mean fewer vehicles on the roads and fewer trips. This is good news.

I should have explained what C1 does: it covers, not the heavy goods vehicles that we all know, but vehicles between 3.5 to 7.5 tonnes. That is an important threshold—and by the way, this also applies to a number of commercial activities. To go back to D1, a lot of the community minibuses were rightly equipped to take people with disabilities and wheelchairs. Some minibuses are just under 3.5 tonnes, but as soon as the equipment and the person in the wheelchair goes on to the minibus, it goes over that limit. As a consequence, activities can be suspended or services withdrawn.

I turn to the responses. A significant number were very pro and wanted a change without any conditions whatsoever. That was the biggest result, at 43% I think, while there were those who thought we could have an opportunity, but with some changes to conditions—at the moment, the licence would apply only from the age of 18, but once people turn 70, it has to be reviewed. I agree with that, which is why I want to see reform, but in combination, that is 73% of the people who responded to the call for evidence who wanted the change and felt that it could be made safely or that it might need no adjustments at all. I am open to discussion with the Minister about possible reforms—perhaps two or three years since driving, or perhaps a slightly older starting age than 18—but the important thing is to make this as straightforward as possible, rather it being about the cost that goes in.

I should also say to the House that this issue actually stops people driving ambulances, and has done for the last couple of years. Although people were already undergoing advanced training and blue light training, because they were waiting to get a C1 assessment, they could not drive an ambulance. That has led to a driver shortage.

We all know what happened in the HGV driver crisis, as it was called at the time. I do not criticise HGV drivers for that at all—I have cousins who are HGV drivers, and they diligently help to power the economy of the country. However, with the explosion of much more localised delivery, which reflects patterns of consumption in the market, the local delivery element can become attractive to people. Instead of being away from home for several days at a time, travelling and staying overnight in the cab, they can have a much more localised job.

Taking this opportunity would open up the market, enabling many more drivers to take advantage of these opportunities and allowing businesses to grow their business, reflecting the availability of labour. By making this simple change, we would significantly increase the availability of drivers to help to drive the economy, which is absolutely vital.

I know that tests have become a lot tougher since I took mine, and I am conscious that there will be organisations that worry about this. I am not looking to try to make things less safe; I am trying to reflect the fact that our driving standards have got higher over time, yet key elements are holding up, at significant cost. The impact of that on the economy, on economic opportunity and on our communities really needs to be considered.

There may be some other things that we need to look into, such MIDAS—the minibus driver awareness scheme. I am not suggesting, by the way, a full repeal of the regulations needed for C1E. I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield was quite keen on making things more straightforward for trailers when he was Transport Secretary, but we are also talking about people driving camper vans or with a horse-box. There are all these different sorts of activities where, thanks to an EU regulation that we now have the opportunity to remove, we have just loaded on cost. There would be fewer vans on the road, making fewer trips—it all makes sense, and would actually be a sensible way to improve safety.

I am conscious that the Chamber is filling up with Members who expect the next debate to start in two minutes. Because of the Divisions, this debate can now finish later, and I hope that this much wider audience will hear why this simple change could make a massive impact in their local communities. I will conclude, though, because I am conscious that the household support fund is very important—I was involved in establishing it, and I should have put my name down for that debate, too.

Having worked with this Minister for many years when we were together in the Department for Work and Pensions, I know that he is assiduous and cares about his constituents in Hexham. I also know that he is innovative. Together we worked on many things that might not have come to complete fruition while we were together in the DWP, but we know they were the right things to do. They are now part of the Government’s plan to unlock economic opportunity, and we will continue to be interested in and motivated by them.

The Government set out a plan for drivers, which I think was a really good plan. We need a few extra additions to the plan for drivers, and I hope that the Minister will work with me on that. I should give him notice that on 21 February it is my intention to introduce a ten-minute rule Bill, and to work with him in advance of that, to try to ensure that we find a good process that helps our rural communities and helps the economy, while maintaining of course the safe roads that we all enjoy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Thursday 19th October 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

My hon. Friend has great credibility in this field, given his professional experience as a vet. I understand that many owners of XL Bully dogs are passionate about their animals—their pets. That is why we are working at pace, but taking our time to get right the definitions and the transition period that we anticipate. It is important that all dog owners work to make sure that their dogs behave and have appropriate training. That is why we established a taskforce that includes dog welfare charities. We expect it to respond to us by the end of the year, and we will potentially take forward some of its recommendations.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

As someone who has had a pet dog all my life and still does, I am conscious that some of those who own American XL Bully dogs think that their dogs are integral and safe, but many in the general public see them as a danger and have fear. Is the Secretary of State’s intention, as this process goes forward in Westminster, to engage with the Northern Ireland Assembly and the police, in particular, to ensure that the law and the recommendations that come out of this place can be shared with them?

[Dr Coffey]

The hon. Gentleman is right to recognise owners’ concerns where they believe that they have very good dogs. That is to some extent accommodated already in the legislation that has evolved since 1991. On working with other nations, the law—the primary legislation—will apply in both England and Wales by default, but we are working with the Scottish Government and the Northern Ireland Administration on potential moves to make this a UK-wide approach.

Combined Sewer Overflows

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 13th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

The hon. Lady is incorrect. We absolutely respect the law—we introduced the Environment Act. We can disagree with initial assertions, but we will continue to ensure that we provide the information the OEP has requested.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for the renewed determination to bring about improvement—it is clear that we need it. When we voted on this issue in the House, we were given assurances that these incidents would not take place. It is clear that, while officials may not agree with this investigation, there is still a real cause for concern. How does the Secretary of State intend to alleviate those concerns and, more importantly, ensure that sewage releases are regulated and safe? I make this suggestion very respectfully: stopping the dividends to the chief executives and directors would be a method to encourage improvements by the water companies, who seem reluctant to make them.

[Dr Coffey]

I am conscious that the hon. Gentleman is a Member for a Northern Ireland constituency. The OEP’s remit extends to Northern Ireland, although not to the Welsh Labour Government or the Scottish SNP Government. Investigations can be undertaken—that is what we legislate for in this House—and unlimited penalties can be applied. That is true in England. We will continue to make sure that we do what we can not only to reduce these challenges, but to fix the long-term issues. We know that in London, for example, the Thames tideway tunnel has taken a decade—that is the scale of the issue. The fact that we know about the scale of the issue right now is due to the Conservative Government having taken action, while the Labour Government looked the other way.

Environmental Protection

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 18th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

We are straying somewhat from the purpose of the statutory instruments that we are dealing with today, but I have that same situation whereby Anglian Water covers sewerage and Essex & Suffolk Water covers the supply of water. One critical element in the price review process that we have is that Ofwat goes through a mechanism of working through with water companies what they are allowed to invest in and, as a consequence, what the bill changes could be. We have a situation where bills go up with inflation—that has been part of the mechanism so far, and there is a price review process under way, but I have listened carefully to what my right hon. Friend said.

It has always been the case that Ofwat is there to ensure that the investment that is required in our waterways and our sewerage is made, to ensure that we get best value for money. It is important to note that these SIs cover what happens when we see water companies and other operators, having had that ability to invest, breach their permits. We want to make sure that the penalties are uncapped in order to act as an effective deterrent, as I have mentioned.

Hon. Members have asked how some of those penalties will be applied. I expect that, as now, the Environment Agency will use the guidelines for environmental offences, which are published by the independent Sentencing Council, to determine the level of all variable monetary penalties. Thinking particularly of some of the very small businesses covered by the environmental permitting regime, that will also include a number of safeguards to make sure that penalties are proportionate.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

On the subject of penalties, one thing probably annoys most of us—it certainly annoys many of my constituents—is that whatever happens, the chief executive seems to get a massive dividend. When it comes to damages and penalties, is it possible that those dividends could be retrieved and used for the betterment of customers?

[Dr Coffey]

The water industry in Northern Ireland is not covered by the UK Government. It is a separate system, so with the greatest respect I think the hon. Gentleman will need to follow that up with the Northern Ireland Executive when they are reformed, which I hope will be soon. However, I will also ask the permanent secretary to write to him in that regard.

The regulations apply only to England. We invited the Welsh Government to join us in making the regulations, but they felt unable to act at the pace at which we have acted. That is not to say there are not sewage spillages or other environmental breaches in Wales—there are: we know that on average there were 38 spillages from Welsh storm overflows last year, compared with 23 in England.

The new regulations sit alongside the freedom that we have given Ofwat to link water company dividends to environmental performance. As I have referred to, the fines and penalties will be reinvested in local water improvement schemes through our new water restoration fund, while the water company will pay the polluter penalty and will have to fix the problems at no cost to the bill payer.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Thursday 25th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

As I just said, I expect an announcement on the progress of the Bill very soon, but I stress that animal welfare has been a priority for the Government since 2010. We have made improvements for farm animals, pets and wild animals. In 2021, we published an action plan on animal welfare, and since then we have delivered four manifesto commitments and passed the Animal Welfare (Sentience) Act 2022 and the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Act 2021. We have provided greater protection for elephants by bringing the Ivory Act 2018 into force, and we are extending that. We have also made micro- chipping compulsory. We have supported many measures in our manifesto through the House and hopefully more will complete their passage through the other place within the next couple of months.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s response. I endorse the request made by the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster), because puppy smuggling is an important issue in Northern Ireland. We have to work together to tackle the smuggling of puppies from the Republic of Ireland into Northern Ireland and across on to the mainland. Has the right hon. Lady had an opportunity to speak to the authorities in Northern Ireland, the Police Service of Northern Ireland in particular, to stop this terrible activity that goes on across all of the United Kingdom?

[Dr Coffey]

I had the great pleasure of attending the Balmoral show recently, although I admit we were more focused on farming and food, rather than aspects of animal welfare. The police can act on a number of activities where they suspect crime is being committed, and we intend to strengthen the offences to help the police.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Thursday 30th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

I assure my hon. Friend that I see my role as Secretary of State as ensuring that we have productive trade agreements, which include exports as well as potential imports. It is important, and it has been a key part of our negotiations, that we not only protect our sanitary and phytosanitary and animal welfare standards but ensure that any impact on the domestic market is sufficient that British farmers continue to grow, and rear, their brilliant British food and livestock.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I know the Government and the Minister, in particular, take a deep interest in fisheries issues, specifically about spurdog fishing; I asked the Minister a question about that some time ago. Will the Minister confirm that the total allowable catch for spurdog will be announced? That will create a significant boost for all local fisheries, especially those in Northern Ireland.

UK Food Shortages

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Thursday 23rd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

As I said to the NFU yesterday, farmers are here to feed the country. That is why we support them and will continue to support them in a number of different ways. We are going through a transition away from a financial support system of direct payments, the basic payment, where more than half the money was going to just 10% of farmers because it was based on how much land people had. That is part of the journey we are on, but there are still significant amounts of basic payments going in. That is why we still want, as our manifesto set out and as I said to the NFU yesterday, to at least maintain the amount of domestic food production, if not increase it. We will continue to try to support that, to ensure that our farmers are there for generations to come.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for her answers and for trying to be constructive in those answers, as always. Having heard examples of shoppers turned away from shops for trying to purchase vegetables for their family of seven—I was told that story just yesterday—it is clear that steps must be taken to secure our produce. Can she outline the steps being taken to ensure that paperwork for importation is a smooth system, allowing new suppliers to be found and easily facilitated at this time of shortage and need?

[Dr Coffey]

I am conscious that, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, we are still working on issues involving the Northern Ireland protocol in terms of exchanges between parts of the UK. It is important to recognise that suppliers are proactively working with supermarkets—that is what we have been told. We have been told there is an issue for potentially up to four weeks, and I am keen that the sector gets on with alternative sourcing options. Meanwhile, we will continue to encourage and boost food production. That has always been set out in our food strategy and our manifesto commitment, and I am determined we will try to deliver it.

Environmental Improvement Plan 2023

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 1st February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say how important this issue is. It is not just about the coast. Traditionally, bathing water statistics have focused on coastal areas, because that is where the majority of people go to enjoy that leisure, so that is vital. More broadly, the quality of water matters dramatically. I think of our chalk streams, which are so precious.

Let me tell the House a little anecdote about an occasion when I went to see the River Itchen. The landowner in front of me, having spotted a bottle of dog shampoo, started to cry and said, “This person may not have realised that they have just ruined the chemical status of this river for about the next 25 years.” That will not have been done deliberately, so we need to ensure that everyone is more aware. I understand why my hon. Friend is campaigning for his local river to be brought into the bathing water statistics, and I am sure that his case will be considered very carefully indeed.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

While I note that the plan applies to England specifically, the protection of 30% of land and sea, including through marine protected areas, must apply equally to the Irish sea. What discussions have taken place with officials from the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland to ensure that Northern Ireland Water does not drop the ball, and that that protection is fully extended?

[Dr Coffey]

The hon. Gentleman has made a strong point. In preparation for the CBD COP15 in Montreal, we brought back together the four nations of the United Kingdom that we are proud to represent. We have the Joint Nature Conservation Committee, which is a body that covers the UK. Last year, wearing a different hat, I visited the Giant’s Causeway, which is, of course, extraordinary.

We want to ensure that there is more access to Northern Ireland in this regard, and I know that that has been an important part of the discussions that have taken place. However, we will also continue to work closely with officials—although we all want the Executive to be re-formed so that we can really make progress in Northern Ireland, which is a fantastic part of the United Kingdom.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Thursday 12th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

2. Whether she has made an assessment of the potential implications for her policies of the recommendations of UK100’s clean air net zero report.

[The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dr Thérèse Coffey)]

Happy new year, Mr Speaker.

I am pleased that air quality is improving across our country. I have not made an assessment of that report, but I expect all local authorities to make full use of the many powers available to improve air quality and meet their statutory obligations. That includes an expectation that local authorities will contribute to delivering the new target on reducing population exposure to PM2.5.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Secretary of State for her answer. She will be aware that UK100’s report, “Yes We CANZ: Local leaders delivering Clean Air and Net Zero”, highlights the importance of bringing together clean air and net zero challenges. Many sources of greenhouse gases are also sources of air pollution. Can she comment on the report’s recommendations? Will she agree to meet me and some of the cross-party local authority members of UK100 to discuss how the Government can support the further integration of the clean air and net zero agendas?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Coffey]

I am conscious of the impact fireworks can have on animals. I will share my hon. Friend’s concerns with my noble Friend Lord Benyon, who covers this area, and I expect Lord Benyon will meet with him.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Minister will be aware of the Northern Ireland protocol and the difficulties that vets in Northern Ireland are experiencing in accessing medicines. It is important that assistance is given on both availability and cost. Vets are reorientating their supply chains with great difficulty. Can I seek the Minister’s help for Northern Ireland vets in respect of medicines access, so that we have the same access to treatment as the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Dr Coffey]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the status of what is happening with the Northern Ireland protocol. My noble Friend Lord Benyon leads on borders and veterinarians, so I will bring the hon. Gentleman’s question to his attention. It is important that we continue to ensure a peaceful solution to what is happening in Northern Ireland and a restoration of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly as quickly as possible.

Convention on Biodiversity COP15: Outcomes

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Monday 19th December 2022 Commons Chamber

[Dr Coffey]

Through the Environment Act 2021, some targets on improving the environment are already in primary legislation. We have just confirmed pretty much the environmental targets that we consulted on earlier in the year. I believe the statutory instruments are being laid today, and I think one is being laid tomorrow, so that Parliament can vote on those legally binding targets. Meanwhile, we continue to make other improvements, including through the clean air strategy, the biosecurity plan, existing plans for increasing biodiversity, and landscape recoveries.

We are already doing a lot of work. Indeed, we are changing our funding away from the basic payment system and what the European Union did—making payments to improve the environment based on the amount of land somebody owned—to paying for services, so that we can do more spatial targeting in a more intelligent way by improving water quality and reducing pollution. We will take that forward in aspects of the environmental improvement plan, which will be published next month, as well as in the changes that we will make through the environmental land management scheme.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

First, may I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, which is really encouraging news? I think we are all excited by what she said. As somebody who has been involved in prior biodiversity drives and has planted some 350,000 trees on my land, I know that other landowners will get involved if the incentive is there. I am inspired by the aims, but will the Secretary of State outline how she believes that the UK as a whole can achieve them, how the devolved nations will play into them, and how we in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland can all win?

[Dr Coffey]

I thank the hon. Gentleman. I know that the people of Northern Ireland are also keen to see enhanced nature. I recall my trip earlier this year when I went to the Giant’s Causeway for the first time ever and saw beauty in nature but also the force of nature and a desire to continue to improve it. As for how we work together, it will be up to individual devolved Administrations, but I know that Northern Ireland Ministers and the Executive have been very supportive of our approaches so far.

Covid-19: DWP Update

Debate between Thérèse Coffey and Jim Shannon

Monday 4th May 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

We now go over to a virtual Jim Shannon.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) [V]]

Thank you, Mr Speaker; it is always a pleasure to ask a question. I thank the Secretary of State for her energy and commitment and her responses to the questions so far. I also thank the DWP staff across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and in particular those in Strangford, who have done a whole lot to help people.

The Secretary of State referred to self-employed directors. Hospitality, retail, fishing, construction and bus companies invest their profit back into their companies, as well as self-employed directors. Many of these are family businesses creating many jobs in the high street. Exactly what can be done to help the self-employed directors in shops in Newtownards, Comber, Ballynahinch, Saintfield and villages across the constituency of Strangford?

[Dr Coffey]

It is good to see my hon. Friend doing well over in Northern Ireland. I want to stress again that the scheme established by the Treasury will cover about 95% of people who receive the majority of their income from self-employment. I have tried to share with the House some of the approach taken in order to support people who pay themselves only, in effect, by dividends. As I pointed out earlier, a small percentage of people get the majority of their income in that way, on which, in effect, they pay only 7.5% tax. I am conscious that it cannot be decided whether dividends are solely for substitute pay or whether they are a return on investment, but I encourage those people to consider other forms of support that may be available at this time.