Finance Bill

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore]

That may well be the case.

What we need to do is to find ways to invest in our economy that will genuinely benefit not just those who are unemployed, but those who are under-employed. The Government like to suggest that the rate of growth in the private sector has increased slightly in the last few months, but most of the jobs created over the last couple of years are part-time jobs. As a result of that, these very people are simultaneously losing tax credits and have to claim other benefits. The housing benefit bill has risen substantially in the last year, despite the Government’s changes, and that is because many people in part-time jobs are having to claim. What we saw in May, for example, was that the tax take had dropped and expenditure had risen, particularly on various kinds of welfare benefits.

Taken as a whole, this policy is simply not working. I would have greater respect for the Government if they were now saying, “We must look at why it is that some people are seeking to avoid the additional rate of tax. We must find ways—perhaps it is nudge, perhaps it is enforcement—to make them pay.” As others have said in this and previous debates, we seem to say to one group of people that if we take their benefits away they will work harder, while we say to another group of people that we have to give them more money through tax breaks so that they will work harder. It does not make a great deal of sense, and it is profoundly unfair.

Some of the differentials in our society now are huge. If the proportion—not necessarily the amount—of tax being paid by the top 1% of earners has risen, it might well be because their incomes have risen so much further than those of the rest of the community. The gap between the top earners and the rest has widened hugely over the last few years, which creates a profoundly unequal society.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

I have listened to a good deal of what the hon. Lady has said during our debates, and I have been trying to decide whether or not she supports the raising of the tax allowance. However, I want to ask her about the specific point that she made about the gap between the rich and the poor, which she said had widened over a “few years”. Surely she meant “over the last 13 years”.

[Sheila Gilmore]

As I think the hon. Gentleman knows fairly well, the increase in inequality began far earlier than that. The point in the history of the post-war United Kingdom when the equality gap was narrowest was 1979, which, interestingly, marked the end of a 20-year period during which Labour Governments had predominated. After 1979, the widening of the gap began and accelerated.

I would not suggest for a moment that the party of which I am a member did as much as I should have liked it to do when it was in government, but we did a great deal for pensioners and the least well-off workers in society by, for instance, getting single parents back to work and introducing the minimum wage. It is simply not true that we were not aware of the issues, or that we did nothing to tackle them. The hon. Gentleman may want to return to the heady days of 1979, and perhaps we should all want to do that. Now, however, inequality is breeding a society that poses many dangers, and we want to reduce that inequality, but I do not believe that the Budget does anything to reduce it. We know that the Budget will increase child poverty, and I believe that in three or four years the inequality gap will have widened even more.

LIBOR (FSA Investigation)

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

The Serious Fraud Office is absolutely independent of Government, but it will be in no doubt that this House and the Government want to ensure that the law is properly enforced and that if there are legal avenues that it can explore, it should use them. We must accept that the Financial Services Authority, which is also a prosecuting authority in respect of financial crime, does not feel that it was given enough powers to undertake a criminal prosecution, as Lord Turner has said very clearly. That is why I want to give the regulators the powers they need. Instead of spending two or three years getting to that point—a long public inquiry would take a year or two, after which the Government would go away, consult, publish a White Paper and introduce legislation, and it would be 2015 or 2016 before we did anything—I propose that we use the Financial Services Bill that is already before the House and next year’s banking Bill to put things right.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

The Chancellor mentioned new legislation on the destination of fines on the banking industry and other financial services providers. I raised the issue with our hon. Friend the Financial Secretary in January and got the answer that in the past 10 years, £377,734,373 was levied in fines across the banking sector—a staggering amount. Does the Chancellor agree that a suitable destination for future fines might be the not-for-profit sector and the debt advice agencies that do such valuable work in all our constituencies?

[Mr Osborne]

My hon. Friend is right to point out that under the current arrangements, these fines, including the one that Barclays is paying, will be used to reduce the levy that the rest of the banking industry pays to the Financial Services Authority, so the rest of the banking industry will be the beneficiary of the fines. I do not think that that is right and that is why we are making the changes. We are making them retrospective from the beginning of April to ensure that the fine paid by Barclays will be available to be used for the benefit for the public, and I am sure that we will have a lively debate about how that money should be spent.

LIBOR (FSA Investigation)

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

What I have said is that the chief executive of Barclays has some very serious questions to answer about who knew what when, and who in the management knew that.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

All our constituents will be outraged but perhaps not surprised by yet another scandal rocking the foundations of part of a functioning liberal democracy. A fine on the bank is all very well; that just hits the shareholders. The directors of that company have, at the very least, failed in their fiduciary duties to those shareholders and may have done or sanctioned an awful lot worse. What sort of sanctions should be taken against directors who preside over such terrible practice?

[Mr Osborne]

The Government whom the hon. Gentleman and I both support have introduced clawback so that the bonuses that were given to executives, traders and others in the banks can be clawed back if necessary. That did not previously exist. We are looking specifically at the responsibilities of directors of failed banks. The consultation on that will be published next week as a result of the FSA inquiry into what went wrong at RBS, and as I say, we are responding to today’s report by looking at the regulation of LIBOR, at the criminal sanctions that are available for prosecution, and at what happens to the fine, so that it is the people of Bristol who benefit from the fine that is paid, rather than other banks in the City of London.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 26th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, and I spoke to Stephen Hester this afternoon to find out what progress RBS has made in resolving its issues. It introduced measures to help people who can access branches, but she makes a very important point about internet banking, and RBS is very keen to learn the lessons from those problems and to put in place contingency arrangements for the future. I encourage her to get her constituent to write to RBS, and, if he has suffered additional costs as a consequence of the situation, to make that claim to it.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

Embarrassing revelations about celebrities’ tax affairs usually bring a flurry of people to their tax accountants, asking them to check whether their affairs are all in order. Will the Treasury ask HMRC to encourage people to come forward voluntarily now and confess to what they may be up to, rather than wait for an investigation into their tax affairs?

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I hope that all those who have engaged in aggressive tax avoidance schemes consider whether it is the right thing to do and reconsider their affairs.

Banking Reform

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Thursday 14th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman should reflect for a moment on what happened when his Government were in power. Bankers were able to take their bonuses in cash in the year they were paid, while Lord Mandelson said that he was “intensely relaxed” about the filthy rich. What we have done since we came to office is put in place the toughest and most transparent pay regime of a major financial centre and ensured that shareholders have a stronger voice over bank pay. We have tackled the problem, which the previous Government simply neglected and allowed to fester and develop, thereby contributing towards the crisis that we have seen in the banking sector.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

Two of the core reasons why the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats came together in coalition were to stabilise our public finances and to reform Britain’s broken banking sector. Our constituents tell us that they want more banks that specialise in lending to small and medium-sized businesses, as well as ethical providers, such as Triodos bank, which is based in my constituency. Will the Minister undertake to smooth the path through regulation for new entrants and also make it easier for people to move their money from existing banks to new providers?

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend makes some important points. We need to make the regime easier when it comes to authorising banks, which is why the Bank and the FSA are looking at prudential and conduct requirements, to ensure that they are appropriate and not disproportionate, which is one of the criticisms that many potential new entrants make. However, he is also right that once we have new entrants to the market, they need to be able to attract business from other banks. We need to ensure that customers are able to switch their accounts more easily. An industry-led initiative will be launched later this year which will help with that, but it is also important that customers understand the costs of their accounts and are able to use that money to help them shop around and opt for better-quality or new providers, so that there is much more choice and diversity in the market.

Public Appointees (Tax Arrangements)

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Danny Alexander]

I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s comments and for his role in bringing these matters to the House’s attention. I wholeheartedly agree that it makes no difference when the arrangements started and which Minister was responsible; frankly, the situation has grown up over a number of years and under Governments of different hues. It is right that we are taking action to bring the situation under control and ensure proper transparency so that there is no perception of the potential for tax avoidance. He and I agree 100% on that.

It is impossible to say at the moment what the costs, if any, of unwinding the existing arrangements will be. Of course, as I said in my statement, senior people must be brought on to the payroll, unless there are exceptional short-term circumstances. For others, we need arrangements in place that allow assurances to be given that the proper and full amount of tax is being paid, and that will depend on the outcome of those processes with individual members of staff. Of course, if there are costs to be borne, they will have to be borne from within existing departmental allocations. If Departments do not comply with those rules, there will be a fine of up to five times the salary involved, levied by the Treasury on departmental allocations, which I hope will give Departments a strong incentive to comply with the rules as quickly as possible.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend and his colleagues have done some very important work in bringing these arrangements to light, but is it not the case that someone should be engaged in this way only in circumstances where there is a genuine short-term shortage in government of a particular expertise or if the individual genuinely has a wide portfolio of private sector clients unrelated to other public sector work? Is not what is needed an emphatic statement from him that these arrangements should be not commonplace, but truly exceptional?

[Danny Alexander]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments and his welcome. He is right that the arrangements should be exceptional and unusual, and should apply only in particular cases, such as when there is a short-term shortage, as he says, or a particular specialism is needed to deliver a project. That is why so many of these cases relate to IT professionals delivering individual projects. There is an employee test under the IR35 rules, which I am told is simple and straightforward, and that should be sufficient for determining on which side of the line someone sits.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 24th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith)]

As briefly discussed during last week’s debate on the Finance Bill, the Government are undertaking various pieces of work on aviation strategy and, more recently, received representations on regional congestion charges and other things during the APD consultation. I can confirm to the hon. Lady that, although I have not spoken to her personally about the matter, I am happy to meet her, her colleagues and representatives of those airports to hear more evidence of what they believe might occur if we set different tax rates.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

I am sure we have all received letters from constituents over the years saying that they did not want their taxes spent on one thing and preferred them to be spent on something else. It is right in principle, therefore, that the Government cap the ability of the super-rich to allocate taxes to charities of their choice. Will my right hon. Friend the Chancellor acknowledge, however, that universities and medical research charities have always depended on philanthropic support? In reviewing the cap on tax relief, will he ensure that those institutions’ interests are safeguarded?

[Mr Gauke]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support for the policy. As we said at the time of the Budget and in the Budget document, we are looking to explore with charities dependent on large donations how this can be implemented without it having a major impact on them. Of course, we will take into account the concerns of universities and others.

IMF

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

No, I do not accept that. For the IMF to walk away from the enormous problems that we all know exist in the eurozone would be a betrayal of why we and other countries created the IMF: to be there to help countries, including groups of countries, that get themselves into trouble. The IMF also provides advice and conditionality along with its loans. Having set up an institution to deal with global economic problems, it would be bizarre if, when some of the largest economic problems the world has ever known arise, we were to say that the IMF is not going to help.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

The central unifying purpose of this coalition Government is to bring stability and credibility to the management of the United Kingdom’s economy and public finances. That, in turn, enables us to play a constructive role on the world stage. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, just as it is in the Swedish, Swiss, Australian, South Korean and Japanese national interest to give extra contributions to the IMF, it is in the British interest not just to help the eurozone, but to lend assistance wherever the IMF team’s assistance is required?

[Mr Osborne]

I agree with my hon. Friend. The coalition Government have taken very difficult decisions in order to make sure that our public finances are back under control, and we are seen by the world to be dealing with our debt crisis. After spring meetings in Washington at which countries not in the EU, including Australia, Japan, South Korea, Norway and Switzerland, all agreed to contribute to increased IMF resources, it would be truly bizarre if a British Chancellor were to come to the House today and announce that Britain is not contributing. [Interruption.] What did the shadow Chancellor say? [Interruption.] What? [Interruption.] What? The truth is that a Chancellor who came here and said he was not taking part when all those other countries, some of them on the other side of the world, were taking part, would have absolutely no credibility abroad.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Thursday 19th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dr Whiteford]

I agree entirely. It is about not only rural and transport costs, but increases in VAT, cuts in fuel allowances and so forth. All these things have put a real squeeze on people living on fixed incomes, who have little opportunity to find money from any other source. These have not been easy financial times for those on fixed incomes, who have been the forgotten victims of the financial crisis. It is not fair to say that pensioners have got off lightly so far from the public spending squeeze—quite the reverse. In considering changes to age-related allowances, we need to understand that the granny tax will tighten the screw on people who have already had significantly to tighten their belts in recent times.

Those affected by this measure are all living on below-average incomes. Most will have paid tax throughout their working lives, and most thought they were doing the responsible thing by saving for their retirement. Crucially, they do not have the opportunity to find alternative sources of income. They are on fixed incomes and are living off savings.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Dr Whiteford]

I was about to wind up, but I would be delighted to take an intervention.

[Stephen Williams]

The hon. Lady just said that this group of people are on below-average incomes. That might be true across the broad span of the population, which includes people in work on enormous salaries, but for pensioners, surely they are on way-above-average incomes.

[Dr Whiteford]

The hon. Member for Leeds West pointed out that nobody on an income of more than £25,500 a year will be affected by this measure. Frankly, with average earnings above that, I do think that most of those pensioners are living in what most people would consider to be quite modest circumstances, particularly when, as I have already argued, they have to pay much greater heating costs. Their lifestyles are not without particular burdens that they have to bear, and they do not have a chance to improve them.

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[Graham Evans]

I am not sure about those figures, but I would go back to my original point: if the 50% tax were so important to the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, why did Labour not introduce it 13 years ago?

[Stephen Williams]

Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend with his rhetorical question. Apart from Mr Williams in the Chair, the Minister and me, and the delightful Labour Whip, the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), everyone in the Chamber happens to be from the 2010 intake and probably did not witness members of the Labour Government cheering when they produced tax cuts for the super-rich—they reduced their capital gains and income taxes while at the same time raising tax for the poorest by abolishing the 10p rate. Therefore, in fact, the pressure was all in the opposite direction.

[Graham Evans]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s astuteness in recognising that most hon. Members in the Chamber are relatively new. He raises a good point, but I want to go back to the one made by the hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice). My hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge made the point that the top 1% richest people in the country now contribute 30% of tax to the UK Exchequer. In 1976, when Denis Healey, the famous Labour Chancellor, said he would squeeze the rich until the pips squeak, the top 1% richest people in the country contributed only 11%. So the 1% now contribute significantly more. I would be interested to hear how much more the hon. Gentleman feels they should contribute.

The Bill contains a raft of additional measures, some of which have been mentioned, to promote growth, especially in the north of England. There are far too many to list but I will point out a few that as a northern Member I especially welcome. Enterprise loans to help young people to set up and grow their own businesses are a great idea to foster ambition and creativity among the next generation. I firmly believe that what matters is not where someone comes from or went to school but where they are going, and there is no better way for young people to get on than starting up their own business, working for themselves, employing other people, growing that business and contributing to wealth creation.

The introduction of an above-the-line research and development tax credit is a simple but important move. It will help British businesses to stay competitive in the long run and send out the message that we back innovation. I am fortunate to have Daresbury science and innovation campus in my constituency. It is an internationally outstanding campus with more than 100 outstanding start-up businesses. I hope that they will be the Googles, Amazons and Microsofts of the future which are born in this country.

There are also excellent measures to help make the UK the technology capital of Europe, including a new £100 million fund to support investment in new university research facilities; £60 million of investment in the UK centre for aerodynamics; the allocation of £100 million for ultra-fast broadband in 10 of our biggest cities, including Manchester; £50 million to fund ultra-fast broadband in 10 smaller cities; and the extension of mobile coverage to 60,000 rural homes along 10 key roads.

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[Katy Clark]

The hon. Gentleman is well aware that borrowing is going up. As I was saying, despite the fact that the Government are failing and have consistently failed to meet their own targets, the reality is that the cuts in public spending they have already made—and they propose more for the coming years—are having a disproportionate effect on the pensioner community.

[Stephen Williams]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Katy Clark]

I hope to come to a conclusion shortly, but I will give way for the last time.

[Stephen Williams]

The hon. Lady has twice said that pensioners are disproportionately affected by the collection of measures the Government are introducing to reduce the deficit. May I quote what Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, said about this particular measure? He said:

“Despite this morning’s headlines, this looks like a relatively modest tax increase on a group hitherto well sheltered from tax and benefit changes. From this Budget we calculate that pensioners will lose on average one quarter of one per cent of their income in 2014”.

How does she square that—the Opposition often like quoting the IFS—with pensioners being disproportionately affected by what the Government are doing?

[Katy Clark]

I think that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents will be very interested by his complacent approach. I suspect that he is well aware of the impact that the Government’s cuts are having on his constituents as well as mine, and well aware of the pain that his constituents are suffering. I am sure that he is also aware that pensioners rely disproportionately on social services and the public sector, and that the forthcoming cuts will make life particularly difficult for them.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Stephen Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that clarification.

The idea that the Tories would offer a tax break to millionaires would surprise nobody in my constituency—in fact, they would expect it—but that Labour would abstain after announcing it would vote against it has led to a great deal of confusion. I have had a lot of fun on the doorstep in the past few weeks explaining that, while campaigning for the local authority elections. It is similar to the way the official Opposition announced the policy of a temporary cut in VAT last June, then two weeks later abstained on the Finance Bill when I and my colleagues proposed such a measure. A lack of consistency and clarity on economic matters explains why it is so easy for the Government to continue to pin the blame on the official Opposition for the UK’s economic mess in spite of the flawed and ideological cuts programme which is destroying the fabric of the economy.

[Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)]

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that 12 months ago there was a similar set of circumstances, when the Labour Opposition said on three occasions that they opposed the rise in VAT, continued to say that they were opposed to the rise in VAT, but on three occasions failed to vote against it?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention. The hon. Gentleman is of course right. It is a matter of record, and it shows that when it comes to a vote in the House, the Labour party does not have a policy.

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[Owen Smith]

The Minister gives the lie to the argument that the Government have made about this figure, which allows them to state that it is £2.3 billion, not £3.5 billion, and is therefore lower than the £2.5 billion that they are ostensibly raising through the bank levy. Of course, both the £2.3 billion figure and the £2.5 billion figure are open to question. It is not just me who thinks that; many commentators have said so.

How did the Government manage to reduce the yield of £3.5 billion that is written in black and white on page 101 of the blue book to £2.3 billion? I could tell the Committee, but I will go one better and read out a comment piece from the Financial Times from earlier this year:

“The Treasury reached its £2.3bn figure for last year by lopping off £1.2bn from the original £3.5bn figure—citing the income tax and NI which the exchequer may have lost due to banks paying lower bonuses than they might have done. (A speculative behavioural assumption).”

As anybody who has read “The Exchequer effect of the 50 per cent additional rate of income tax” will know, highly speculative behavioural assumptions are the bedrock of this Government’s economic policies. The article went on to forecast that the bank levy, which was meant to reach £2.5 billion in 2012, would actually reach only £1.3 billion. In truth it reached £1.8 billion, but it certainly did not reach the £2.5 billion that is claimed repeatedly by Government Members.

[Stephen Williams]

The shadow Minister said that the figure of just over £1 billion being lost because of behavioural change was speculative. Of course, the previous Chancellor stated that the bank bonus tax was introduced in the last Parliament to drive down the awards of bonuses. It was meant to change behaviour. The previous Chancellor therefore speculated at the time that there would be a reduction in the number of bonuses and, therefore, in the income tax and national insurance contributions taken in by the Treasury.

[Owen Smith]

That would have been a good intervention, were it not for the fact that the £3.5 billion that was realised is written in black and white on page 101 of the OBR document. It is clear how much money was raised—£3.5 billion. [Interruption.] If the Minister wants to intervene to correct me on that, he can do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Owen Smith]

I shall keep going for a moment.

That is before we consider the actual tax cuts being introduced in the year-on-year reductions in corporation tax and the other changes to the controlled foreign companies legislation.

[Stephen Williams]

The hon. Gentleman says that banks will all get a tax cut because of the reductions in corporation tax. That assumes that they have taxable profits. Many have accumulated losses and will not be paying corporation tax for quite some time, whatever the rate.

[Owen Smith]

I would not dispute that for a moment. Many of the banks are under water and so will not end up paying tax for a significant period, but not all of them, and that is my point. Broadly speaking, the banks and financial services account for about 8% of corporation tax in this country. Overall, there will be a reduction to the Exchequer, through the cut in corporation tax to 22%, of about £5.5 billion per annum. That is leaving aside the CFC changes. On average, then, we would expect the financial services and banks to get about £450 million off their tax bills as a result of the Government’s changes. That is the point I am making. The question that needs to be asked in the round is what we are doing to tax corporations and tax our banks.