Privilege: Conduct of Right Hon. Boris Johnson

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 19th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

We have been reminded in this debate that the report makes the fundamental point that:

“Our democracy depends on MPs being able to trust that what Ministers tell them in the House of Commons is the truth.”

On 24 November 2021, at Prime Minister’s questions, the then Prime Minister said that

“now, almost a month after furlough ended, there are more people in work than there were before the pandemic began.”—[Official Report, 24 November 2021; Vol. 704, c. 344.]

That statement was untrue. The monthly employment statistics at that time showed that there were over half a million fewer people in employment than there were before the pandemic began, and total employment remained lower than before the pandemic until this month’s employment statistics.

The former Prime Minister made the same untrue claim on 15 December 2021, then again on 5 January 2022 —when he said it three times—and then on 12 January and 19 January 2022. On 1 February 2022, the director general for regulation at the Office for Statistics Regulation wrote to the director of data science at 10 Downing Street to point out that that repeated claim was untrue. The Prime Minister repeated the claim again on 2 February, and again on 23 February 2022. I thought at first that the Prime Minister might have just misunderstood the numbers. It was true, as he claimed on a number of occasions, that the number of people on payrolls was higher than before the pandemic, but that was because a lot of self-employed people gave up self-employment during the pandemic or afterwards and became employees on payrolls instead.

The letter from the director general having had no impact, the then chair of the UK Statistics Authority, Sir David Norgrove, wrote to the Prime Minister on 24 February 2022:

“Dear Prime Minister…it is wrong to claim that there are now more people in work than before the pandemic began: the increase in the number of people who are on payrolls is more than offset by the reduction in the number of people who are self-employed.”

At the Liaison Committee in March 2022, I asked the then Prime Minister whether he accepted that correction in Sir David Norgrove’s letter. His reply was not straightforward, but the transcript of the meeting shows that Mr Johnson understood fully and clearly what had happened in the labour market—he did not misunderstand the figures—and he also accepted that employment was in fact lower than before the pandemic. He said that he was going to correct the record on that point, which he did not do, but he did recognise that his claim had been mistaken.

Despite that, Mr Johnson subsequently carried on making the claim. He said it again the next month, on 20 April and on 27 April. In his final Question Time as Prime Minister on 20 July last year, he said, despite knowing well that it was untrue,

“We have more people in paid employment than at any time in the history of this country.”—[Official Report, 20 July 2022; Vol. 718, c. 951.]

My conclusion from all of this, which I think sheds some light on the events covered by the report, is that Mr Johnson just is not interested in whether a statement is true or not. He is a clever man—he thinks quite hard about what he plans to say—but the criterion, “Is this true?” is not an important consideration for him.

[Bob Seely]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a good speech. Boris had a complicated relationship with the truth—I am not denying that. The right hon. Gentleman has been in this House for a very long time, and it is great that he is saying that truth and integrity are very important. New Labour had a reputation for injecting lies into the British political process as never before. [Interruption.] It is true, actually. Did he specifically object to the lies that were told in the run-up to the Gulf war? He was in Parliament then.

[Sir Stephen Timms]

I was in Parliament, and I do not believe that Ministers at that time said things that they knew to be untrue. I think it is absolutely clear, as far as I can tell—I am just spelling out the facts—that the former Prime Minister did say in this House things that he knew well to be untrue, because I had the chance to discuss them with him at the Liaison Committee and he agreed they were untrue, but he carried on saying them.

[Bob Seely]

So when Ministers were sexing up documents about weapons of mass destruction, they believed those claims to be true.

[Sir Stephen Timms]

Yes, I do believe that those who made those points in the House at the time believed that they were true. It subsequently became clear that they were not. I defy anyone to claim the same about Boris Johnson, given the particular history that I have recounted. As we have been reminded in this debate, that approach to politics is toxic for democracy. What is the point of us standing up and asking Ministers questions day after day if they routinely give us answers they know to be untrue? We have no chance of building confidence in Parliament, in democracy and in politics if Ministers do not care whether what they say is true or not.

Maybe there is a contrary argument that great men should not have to worry about such trivial details, but the Committee is absolutely right: if that view prevailed, our democracy would be at very serious risk, as I think it is across the Atlantic at the moment. With Boris Johnson having made a pretty successful career out of not telling the truth, thank goodness that the Committee was willing to take a stand. It is absolutely right, and I hope the whole House will support the Committee this evening.

Committee on Standards

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg)]

I beg to move,

That, notwithstanding the practice of this House relating to questions already decided in the same Session, this House:

(1) rescinds the resolution and order of 3 November 2021 relating to the Third Report of the Committee on Standards (HC 797) and the appointment of a new select committee;

(2) approves the Third Report of the Committee on Standards (HC 797); and

(3) notes that Mr Owen Paterson is no longer a Member of this House.

I have listened carefully to the views expressed since the debate and decision on 3 November, and I make it clear that Members of Parliament must uphold the highest standards in public life. We expect all Members to abide by the prevailing rules of conduct. Paid lobbying is wrong and Members found guilty of it should pay the necessary penalties. Our standards system must function robustly and fairly to support this so that it commands the confidence of Members and the general public.

The Government support the principle of an additional right to appeal in the standards system in the House of Commons and for that potential reform to be explored on a cross-party basis.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

What happened a couple of weeks ago was an extraordinary failure of moral leadership and, for the first time, it has given rise in the minds of many to serious questions about the character of this Government. With hindsight, why did the Leader of the House and his right hon. Friends not recognise the brazen wrongdoing of their colleague?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I think the simple answer—[Interruption.] No, I think the heckle from the right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) is unfair and unkind. It was simply that the tragedy that afflicted Mr Paterson coloured and clouded our judgment, and my judgment, incorrectly. It is as simple and as sad as that.

The Back-Bench amendment that we supported was intended to facilitate the exploration, on a cross-party basis, of the standards system, with a time-limited, ad hoc Committee. However, I regret that the amendment conflated an individual case with more general concerns. That was a mistake. Crucially, the amendment did not carry cross-party support, which is why we have changed our approach.

The Government fully recognise the role of the Committee on Standards in ensuring that the code of conduct reflects and fosters the highest standards of public life. I would like to thank all the Committee members and the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards for their service. We await the Committee’s report on the code of conduct with interest. The Committee performs an important role in identifying opportunities to improve the standards system, and I note that the Chairman, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), has made a recent, and helpful, commitment to commission a senior judicial figure to advise on possible changes to the process.

I assure all right hon. and hon. Members that I am always willing to discuss this matter further, and I hope to work with Opposition Members constructively on this issue. We all have the best interests of the House at heart and I hope that, setting aside the previous debate, we will work well together in the weeks ahead.

Committee on Standards

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

If the original ruling is upheld, it will come back to this House for a vote on the proposal in the normal way. I agree with my hon. Friend that it should be timely.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Can I take the Leader of the House back to what he was saying a couple of minutes ago about the whistleblowing exemption? Does he recognise the grave danger that, if the interpretation of that exemption that he appeared to be commending was accepted by the House, there would in effect be no ban at all on paid advocacy?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The right hon. Gentleman is a very distinguished and fair-minded Member of this House. It is fundamentally important that the whistleblowing exemption is an exemption and not a loophole that can be exploited for all purposes. Paid advocacy demeans the House and is not something that Members should be involved in. On the other hand, if people have come across a serious wrong in the course of something they have been paid for, I think most fair-minded Members would think it only right and proper that they should tell Ministers about it. There must be a clear dividing line, which I hope the Select Committee would be able to establish. That is at the heart of the disagreement between my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire and the Committee on Standards, and that matter needs to be clearer.

Business of the House

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Thursday 23rd March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

One of the important roles of both lower-tier authorities, such as parish councils, and Members of Parliament is holding local authorities to account for their stewardship of the scarce and finite resource of taxpayers’ money. I am in no position to comment in detail about traffic lights at roundabouts in my hon. Friend’s constituency, but he is clearly not going to let this issue go.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The cuts to the personal independence payment explicitly exclude people applying for mobility support if the problem arises from psychological distress, despite the Prime Minister’s commitment to treat mental health problems on a par with physical health. I am grateful for the Leader of the House’s commitment that we are finally going to have a debate, but can I press him for a date? Those cuts have already taken effect, but it sounds as though the debate will now have to be after the Easter recess. Can he at least give us a firm date for when it is finally going to happen?

[Mr Lidington]

I want to reassure the right hon. Gentleman on the design of the personal independence payment. It is at the very core of the personal independence payment system that non-physical conditions should be given the same recognition as physical conditions. We already see the outworking of that in the fact that a significantly higher proportion of people who have mental health issues receive the top rates of PIP than was the case with disability living allowance.

Business of the House

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Thursday 21st July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

On the basis of my hon. Friend’s description of the situation in Shropshire, it seems to me that what is needed is certainty that the local NHS management, including the senior clinicians who will be part of those teams, will decide on what they want and provide justification for any changes. As for a debate, this strikes me as something that might well fall within the scope of an Adjournment debate that either a ballot or Mr Speaker might be able to make available to my hon. Friend.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Today’s Order Paper shows a written statement on the UK Commission for Employment and Skills, although I do not think it has yet been published online. The Education, Skills and the Economy Sub-Committee has already expressed regret at the closure of the commission. Will the Leader of the House join me in commending its achievements, since its establishment in 2008, under its two chairmen, Sir Mike Rake and Sir Charlie Mayfield? In view of its record of independent analysis and advice to successive Governments, is it not a shame that the enthusiasm for independent analysis and advice of the Government who set up the commission is not shared by the current Government?

[Mr Lidington]

I am happy to join the right hon. Gentleman in expressing thanks to the commission and its leadership for all the work that they have done. It is also a fact, however, that from time to time, Governments of all political colours need to review the institutions through which policy is delivered, and this is one of those occasions.

Strathclyde Review

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Thursday 17th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

If we talked to the public about the way our Parliament works and said that we have an elected House which, as a result of these proposals on secondary legislation, will have the final say, but that we also have a group of people who have been eminent in their very different professions—people ranging from Lord Lloyd-Webber in the arts to some of the most senior business people—whose job it is to advise and guide the elected House about when it might be getting it right and when it might be getting it wrong, I think they might form a different view. I accept that there are strong opinions about this, but right now this is about solving a structural problem in the relationship between the two Houses that has emerged in the past few months. Lord Strathclyde has given us three sensible options to work with.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Surely the episode that gave rise to the report was simply an example of Parliament functioning as it is supposed to do. The Chancellor has since been trying to take the credit for the change. Will the Leader of the House accept, as I think the great majority of his hon. Friends now do, that the other place was right on tax credits?

[Chris Grayling]

What really happened was that having set out some tough decisions that we said we would have to take—we have always been clear about the tough decisions that we were going to have to take—and having discovered that the public finances were doing better than expected because of the success of his economic policies, the Chancellor was able not to take some of those difficult decisions, and that is a good thing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Splendid. The same goes for Mr Timms.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

T9. Does the Minister plan to increase competition in the superfast broadband market following last week’s debate that highlighted lack of competition as the main source of current frustrations with the roll-out?

[Mr Vaizey]

Let me take one more—I have broken my duck. We have one of the most competitive telecommunications markets, and will continue to work with Ofcom to increase competition in the sector.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

The hon. Lady is a doughty campaigner on this front and I commend her for it. The policy of central Government is to pay undisputed invoices within five days and to pass 30-day payment terms down the supply chain as a condition of contract. The situation is therefore improving. We encourage our prime contractors to pay more quickly than the 30-day commitment on a voluntary basis. We have tasked Departments with managing their contracts in a way that ensures that that happens. We also encourage SMEs that are not being paid by the prime contractor sufficiently quickly to let us know so that we can investigate.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

8. What progress he has made on the commitment in the “Open Public Services” White Paper of July 2011 to publish public service user satisfaction data on all providers from all sectors.

[The Minister for Government Policy and Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr Oliver Letwin)]

I am delighted to be able to tell the right hon. Gentleman that the progress in that incredibly important area has been considerable. The friends and family test, which is our main user feedback mechanism, is used in all hospitals and maternity wards. By March 2015, it will be extended to the rest of the NHS. It is already used in further education, it has been used in the National Citizen Service since August and it will be used in Jobcentre Plus from March next year. The intention is to roll it out right across the public services.

[Stephen Timms]

I am heartened. The Government’s Work programme is a good example of a public service where user satisfaction data would be extremely valuable, but the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has steadfastly resisted their introduction. Will the Minister have another go at persuading the Secretary of State to introduce the use of such data in that service?

[Mr Letwin]

I am grateful for that suggestion. I will certainly talk to my right hon. Friend about it. He recently agreed to introduce the data in Jobcentre Plus and we have had to work through the details of that. I will certainly open discussions with him about the Work programme and will have discussions about other programmes across the rest of Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Newmark]

I am delighted that my hon. Friend has highlighted the important work that Cheshire Community Development Trust does to support people in Weaver Vale. Through our social action work, we are supporting communities across the country to take a more active role in shaping their neighbourhoods and working together for the good of others.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

T4. On user satisfaction data, does the Minister accept that the Public Accounts Committee was right to say that the position is currently far short of the ambitions in the White Paper? How long will it be before user satisfaction data are published for all services and all providers?

Business of the House

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Thursday 13th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I am very pleased that the railway line through Dawlish will reopen by 4 April, a fortnight earlier than was previously expected. If an opportunity arises for a debate, I suspect that it is more likely to be on the Adjournment than by other means, but it would be helpful for the Government and for Members to make it clear that the south-west will be open for business, including tourism, this summer.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House answer the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) about the Work programme evaluation report, whose existence was revealed yesterday by “Channel 4 News”? The report apparently points out that people who are out of work on health grounds are getting a particularly raw deal. When will it be published?

[Mr Lansley]

I confess that I do not know when it will be published, but I will talk to my hon. Friends at the Department for Work and Pensions and ask them to reply to the right hon. Gentleman.

Business of the House

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I would be delighted if that opportunity were to arise, particularly given that secondary schools are now being built for £6 million less, on average, than under the Building Schools for the Future programme. I have seen evidence of that in my own constituency, where a new school is being built, as a free school, employing composite laminated timbers prefabricated in Yorkshire and Humberside.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

May we have an urgent debate on the living wage, so that we can explore why councils such as Tory Croydon, which does not pay the living wage to its employees, charges a higher level of council tax than neighbouring Labour Lambeth, which does?

[Mr Lansley]

The right hon. Gentleman might like to talk to his own Front-Bench team about whether they wish to discuss the matter, as Opposition time is available next Wednesday. He might like to press that case on them. I would be happy to debate the matter, however, because it would enable us to discuss not only our support for a living wage but the efficiency and value for money delivered by Conservative local authorities relative to Labour ones.