Great British Energy Bill (First sitting)

Stephen Flynn Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Catherine Fookes (Monmouthshire) (Lab)]

Q Welcome, Mr Maier. It is great to meet you—thank you for coming before the Committee. In Monmouthshire, we have seen the benefit of a lot of community energy projects, such as solar power on the Bridges community centre in Monmouth. In Wales, we have also seen lots of hydro projects in community energy, such as Ynni Ogwen in Bangor. Can you share how you think the Bill’s provisions will support community energy projects in the whole of Britain and Wales?

Juergen Maier: Community energy is definitely a priority for Great British Energy. If you want to point specifically to the Bill, clause 3, “Objects”, refers in subsection (2)(a) to

“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”.

I see community energy as a core part of that. As Great British Energy, we definitely want to support the schemes that you have been talking about, whether those are in Wales, Scotland, England or Northern Ireland. We will definitely be doing that.

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

Q Thank you for joining us this morning, Mr Maier. May I go back to your answer to a previous question? I do not think you quite clarified how many jobs would be in Aberdeen. If I picked you up correctly, you said that you expected those jobs to be operational engineering jobs. Could you elaborate on that? Could you give a steer or a little clarity on what you expect GB Energy to do in practice? The Bill states that the Secretary of State will provide clarity subsequently, but there is a lot of discourse in the public domain about what GB Energy will actually do.

Juergen Maier: Indeed. You are right that I did not answer your first question directly. The reason, obviously, is that we have not been able to put a direct number on it yet. It will be in the hundreds; it may eventually be 1,000 or more in the HQ. You will now say, “That is not going to help manage the energy transition,” but the reason is that the large numbers of people we will be helping to employ will be in the supply chain. If we look at some of the numbers already, by the end of the decade 100,000 people will be employed in offshore wind. I hope that many more of those will be in floating offshore wind, and floating offshore wind will happen off the coast of Aberdeen and indeed the whole east coast of the United Kingdom.

The jobs will be the sort that work with supply chains and the private sector to determine how we will enable floating offshore wind. What is the technology? What are the innovation challenges? What about project-managing the schemes, helping them to get through planning permission and making sure that they get on the grid? There will be all those sorts of questions. I very much see the role of Great British Energy as that of an enabler to get such new technologies on to the grid, and as that of an investor and co-investor. It will take quite a team of people and skills to achieve that.

[Stephen Flynn]

Am I okay to ask one more question, Chair?

[The Chair]

A quickie.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q In that context, when do you expect GB Energy to bring down energy bills, as promised?

Juergen Maier: The only way to get energy bills down and to get greater energy security is to get more renewable energy on the grid. We have to keep reminding people that the reason why energy bills went up was not renewable energy; it was a global oil and gas price crisis. Every megawatt and gigawatt of renewable energy that we put on the grid will help to bring bills and prices down. The exact mechanism by which that happens is, of course, a matter of policy—how you decide to bring those bills to the consumer. That is not the scope of Great British Energy; it is not the scope of the Bill, either.

[The Chair]

We are straying from the scope, yes. I call Torcuil Crichton.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Order. The Whips are saying there is something wrong with the mics—nobody can hear me either. You need to speak into the mic because nobody can hear what anyone is saying.

Mike Clancy: It is unusual for a trade union official to be asked to increase their volume; none the less, I will run counter to type and try to do that.

We welcome the creation of GB Energy and we welcome the Bill, but the reality is that communities are facing job losses now. The promise of jobs tomorrow is where the challenge lies. As we are talking about the Bill, I should say that we certainly want to see GB Energy created as an exemplar in terms of social partnership, job creation and turning the promise of quality green jobs into a reality. That is the pathway that the Bill has to provide for communities that are directly affected by technological and other changes. I guess that in other questions we will bring out further things about organisational design, because we certainly have some views on whether the Bill leads to an organisational design that will enable that.

Mika Minio-Paluello: You asked, “Will it ensure?” We very much welcome the Bill, but will it, in itself, ensure a just transition? No. Does it provide a mechanism and a tool that the Secretary of State and the Government can then use to help to deliver that? Yes. We also think the Bill is good because it creates a basis for GB Energy to grow. Ultimately, if we are going to see that successful transition, and all the jobs and the prosperity that we need to see in the UK, GB Energy needs to be on a par with the equivalent companies that we see in other countries, such as Ørsted, Statoil or Equinor, Vattenfall, or EDF. That is a long-term process, and over time, it can be good for workers and it can make the whole country richer.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q Thank you both for coming. In relation to that specific point, which is also in the written evidence that you provided, you referenced Ørsted, EDF, Vattenfall and Statkraft. GB Energy will be capitalised with £1.6 billion per annum. How does that equate to the delivery of projects similar to those of Ørsted, EDF, Vattenfall and Statkraft? Is that not quite a leap?

Mika Minio-Paluello: I mean, you would not build an Ørsted in one, two or five years. ESB, the Irish state-owned company, moved into offshore wind gradually, step by step. It took it about four or five years to get well inthere. We think we should aim to get there by 2040 or 2045. You start somewhere, so you start with the capitalisation. We can all talk about whether the Government could access more borrowing, and the fiscal heritage, but you can start with that. It will not be on that scale by 2030, but it can put in place the mechanisms and a plan so that by 2040 or 2045, we are a more powerful and richer country because we are finally on a par with our peers.

Mike Clancy: We have made some commentary about the treatment of public debt and this space in relation to GB Energy, and whether the debt rules, which are subject to current debate, should be adjusted so that public investment companies are appropriately excluded because they will provide a return to the Exchequer. We are also interested in the structure of GBE arising from the Bill in this regard. Clearly it is going to be a public investment vehicle, but if it is going to be an operator like Ørsted and so on—obviously we heard Juergen talk about the nature of the assets that it may bring under its control—these are significant engineering assets and propositions. If you are going to build a company in that respect, you had better start now, and you had better think about the labour markets in which you are going to obtain the skills, which are very competitive. I could keep you all morning talking about how that will not happen if it is constrained by public sector pay constraints.

A serious point is that there is more than one pathway for this entity, and if it is going to have a dual pathway, it needs to be thought through pretty early. That is because realising the floating offshore wind proposition—whatever sea it may be in—is a very significant endeavour, requiring an operational, management, engineering, construction, planning, and indeed operating capacity that need to be thought about right now, at the Bill stage.

[Andrew Pakes]

Q Thank you both for coming in. This Bill and GB Energy are a hugely exciting return to public steering, which we have not seen before for our energy system. One of our big challenges, before we even start building new systems, is the skills shortage we face, and the real challenge we have had in nuclear, renewables and other forms of energy production. I ask you both: how do you feel the Bill can stimulate and relate to the need to develop skills, deliver new jobs and ensure skills development in different regions of the country as well as in traditional areas?

Mike Clancy: Andrew, you are absolutely right. There are various things that need to be brought together that the Bill itself probably needs to consider, in terms of the skills profile generally and other forms of generation that are within this space. There is going to be an office of nuclear jobs developed by the Secretary of State, and so on. Our view is that it comes down to the extent to which the Bill can specify that GB Energy should be an exemplar company, and that it sets objectives for its board in relation to not only its community engagement, but how it conducts its processes to ensure that the short-termism that sometimes emerges from the private sector form of energy ownership is not characterised by a public company, which should be an absolute champion in these areas.

It comes down to governance and to the objectives and how they are set for a public company, and knitting them into the other parts of the skills landscape. That is why I also make the point—not in a usual trade union way, may I say—that we have to think about the labour markets in which GBE is going to play because they are very tight and very demanding, and there is a whole range of infrastructure that this country needs to invest in to deliver the growth mission.

Mika Minio-Paluello: There is good practice to learn from other countries: from Ørsted, Statoil—now Equinor —and Statkraft. They took a proactive role and identified where they thought the country needed to be in 10 years —not just where they might need to be from a minimalist, reactive position, but where the country needed to be—and then how to invest for the long run in those skills.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Bowie]

Q I think we are all agreed that

“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy”

should include nuclear energy—very important to your members, Mr Clancy. But to build on the point from the hon. Member for Whitehaven and Workington, I think there is a lack of clarity in the Bill at the minute over the operational independence and the autonomy of Great British Nuclear. Are you seeking that from the Government? Is it something that we should seek to have in the Bill as it moves through Committee?

Mike Clancy: That is not just in terms of the Bill, I think; the actual future of Great British Nuclear has a degree of uncertainty around it, per se, because, again—I am in danger of repeating myself—we have been here before. I used to be a member of the Nuclear Industry Council some moons ago, and we are rightly evangelists for our members, who deliver nuclear energy. We recognise that there are lots of controversies down the back end, in terms of decommissioning, but nuclear is an essential part of the future energy mix and the achievement of our climate goals. Therefore, there has to be a range of certainties in response—that is not a glib remark at all—and, in the GB Energy area, it is about companies knowing that they can invest and get the return. The Bill needs to be consistent with that.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q You have spoken eloquently and rightly about the energy transition, jobs, skills and STEM, but I have double checked and the Bill contains absolutely no detail about any of those things. Is that correct?

Mika Minio-Paluello: My understanding is that it is not currently in there, but it will be contained in the statement of strategic priorities. There are questions about how much should be added in. We understand that the logic is that the Bill will create an enabling vehicle—it will enable GB Energy to act and do things—so is it useful to put in many, many limitations? Probably not, because adding in too much detail will slow it down. Is it, on the other hand, useful to put in a clause that says that the statement of strategic priorities should have regard to a just transition and job creation? That could be a consideration.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q But, for clarity, the things that have been spoken about in this context are not in the Bill. Similarly, is there anything within the Bill that gives you certainty that energy bills will be brought down by £300?

Mika Minio-Paluello: Bringing energy bills down is a complicated process that depends on lots of things, including—

[Stephen Flynn]

Q Is it within the Bill though?

Mike Clancy: I suppose my response would be, “How could it be within the Bill?”

Mika Minio-Paluello: Theoretically, the Bill could say, “We will cap energy bills at a certain level,” but it would not be part of GB Energy’s role to cap energy.

Mike Clancy: You cannot divorce this from the fact that GB Energy will operate in a still-privatised energy asset environment, and consequently there are much broader questions about how bills are composed, the energy mix and so on. Those issues are not in the Bill, and I am sure the Chair would stop me going down that path. But I was the field official in energy, so if anyone wants to talk about that we can spend hours on it and the construction of the energy sector. I understand why you asked the question, but GB Energy is one entity within a much broader firmament of energy assets, owned in different ways.

Mika Minio-Paluello: Does the Bill enable the creation of a company that can, over time, grow to be something like EDF, Ørsted or Vattenfall? EDF brought bills down significantly during the energy crisis, when we had soaring bills. Does the Bill create the capacity to do that? Yes.

Mike Clancy: Often the focus in energy policy is on retail, because it affects domestic consumers more than wholesale when things are going a certain way. The biggest thing for us—we represent engineering and science staff—is where the generation is going to come from, what is going down the pipes and how we ensure that consistently and for the long term so that we have energy security and energy down those lines at a competitive price. Clearly, a public sector champion in that regard can be a significant contributor to changing the trajectory of energy prices and giving us indigenous energy security.

[The Chair]

Are there any further questions from Members?

[Stephen Flynn]

If there is still time, I am happy to come back.

[The Chair]

Well, we are not going to fill the time for the sake of it. If you have a genuine question—

[Stephen Flynn]

Q With all due respect, asking a question is not just filling time; it is my job.

For full clarity, you have clarified that it is possible for these things to happen—I do not think anyone would disagree with that—but as it stands the Bill does not provide any certainty about any of those points.

[The Chair]

Order. Is this a repeat of the previous question? I think—[Interruption.] Okay, there is a minute left. Go on.

[Stephen Flynn]

Again, just for clarity—because you pushed back and said that EDF brought down bills—there is nothing in this Bill, unless you tell me otherwise, that says that GB Energy will do likewise. Is that correct?

Mika Minio-Paluello: I do not think it forces GB Energy to do likewise, but I doubt the legislation that set up EDF forced it to do that. I think it probably set up EDF as a company to operate and gave it freedom to act. The question for Members is: “What do we do to enable the UK to finally be on a par with our peers elsewhere?” Does this create a basis for that? Yes. Then, yes, can you please push and hold the Government to account—

[The Chair]

Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask this section of questions. I thank our witnesses on behalf of the Committee.

Examination of Witnesses

Shaun Spiers, Ravi Gurumurthy and Marc Hedin gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Uma Kumaran]

Q Thank you, panel. We have been hearing a lot today about the mission to make the UK a clean energy superpower, moving away from fossil fuels. I want to touch on something that Shaun, Marc and Ravi have all mentioned, about leadership, ambition and innovation. In your view, does the Bill give investors increased confidence to invest in the UK in the energy sector?

Ravi Gurumurthy: You have to think about this as a whole package. If you have absolute clarity and conviction around the 2030 decarbonisation target and the pathway beyond that, and if you translate that intent into a strategic plan—with clarity about the technologies and their location through the NESO—and if you then have an enabling, activating agency like GB Energy clearing away some of the barriers, then the combination of that overall ambition, that plan and GB Energy does I think hugely accelerate investments into the sector. But you have got to do all three.

Marc Hedin: I think that is right. I think there are two key components here. One is identifying gaps in the market, where Great British Energy can provide a lot of value and can reinforce confidence from investors, and thinking hard about where it makes sense for Great British Energy to invest. We have mentioned points like local power plans, innovative technologies. I think there is a range of areas in which it makes a lot of sense for the state to co-invest through Great British Energy to develop those industries. The last point is around supply chain, to really support the whole energy transition.

Shaun Spiers: I agree with that. This is a part of a bigger picture. We keep coming back to the scope of the Bill. The Bill, in its objects, talks about

“measures for ensuring the security of supply of energy”

One area that really has not been given sufficient attention is critical raw materials, where we import 100% and then we export 100% for recycling elsewhere. There are 37 lithium recycling factories in the EU but none in the UK. This is the sort of industry that Great British Energy could help pump-prime, if that is seen as within its scope.

[Stephen Flynn]

Q Again, you have spoken very eloquently about the opportunities that may or may not exist under GB Energy, particularly with regard to the risk appetite that needs to be there. You have perhaps delved into some areas in relation to planning and Crown Estate; where they sit within the devolved competency of the Scottish Parliament. I will not ask you to comment on that because that would be deeply unfair, but what you and others have done is delve into the strategic priorities and what you think they could be. Do you think it is helpful or unhelpful that at this juncture we do not have a full understanding of what those strategic priorities are, given that the Bill is going through in its current form?

Shaun Spiers: I think the more that can be done to set out the strategic priorities, the better. I do not think it necessarily needs to be in the Bill. The explanatory statement and the introductions and so on I think do give a reasonably good steer on what the strategic priorities are, but obviously this body is being set up at pace. The more clarity there is on what it is going to do, the better. I would not set unreasonable expectations of a body that is being set up really quickly, with a pretty clear short-term aim of 2030 power decarbonisation and of supporting that. However, in the longer term the priorities clearly need to be set out.

Ravi Gurumurthy: The NESO will be producing its plan in October, and you have then got the next carbon budget in February, so the actual pathway to 2030 and to 2050 will start to become even clearer in the coming months. It will need to be flexible, however. There will be technologies which emerge that shift our sense of what to focus on. You need priorities, but you do need quite a lot of flexibility in this system.

Marc Hedin: I made the point, I think, at the very beginning that we need a very flexible scope because there will be challenges to the energy transition. We need room to adapt. If this vehicle is to facilitate the energy transition, we need that scope to be relatively broad. I did mention a couple of safeguards, more like accountability, and I think that is still reasonable to ask. However, in terms of strategic priorities, I think the scope is broad enough and makes sense.

[Perran Moon]

Q As a proud Cornishman, I am very excited about the reopening of our tin mines and our lithium mines. I was very pleased to hear you mention critical minerals. Can you elaborate a little on how you think GB Energy can support the UK’s domestic critical minerals industry?

Shaun Spiers: By investing in it. It is more a question of the recycling, because there is a big recycling industry elsewhere. When the UK was the pioneer in offshore wind, it was easy to import critical raw materials and then not bother about reusing them and just import more. As the Foreign Secretary was talking about in his speech at Kew, there are now real concerns about the shortage of critical raw materials across the world. Because they are needed for so many technologies, and so many technologies that are essential to the transition, we need a plan for the transition that includes recycling plants. Lithium mining in Cornwall is great, but we also need not be exporting our critical raw materials to be repurposed elsewhere, and then reimporting the repurposed ones. There are 37 recycling plants in the EU, while in China there were 61 waste lithium battery recycling and processing companies two years ago, and it is a growing industry. It has not grown in the UK, it has not had attention, and I think that if GB Energy is committed to long-term energy security, which it is, then it could play a part in getting that industry going in the UK.