Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

John Bercow Excerpts

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Commons Chamber

Second Reading

[Mr Speaker]

There is a four-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches, and 71 Members want to speak. We will do our best to accommodate them all, but it will be appreciated if Members do not keep coming up to the Chair asking whether, and if so, when, they will be called. They shall just have to be patient. We look forward to the debate.

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[David T. C. Davies]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

I hope it is not a point of frustration from the hon. Gentleman.

[David T. C. Davies]

The right hon. Lady has taken an intervention from her hon. Friend. When will she take an intervention from the Government Benches?

[Mr Speaker]

I note the point. It is not a point of order but the hon. Gentleman has put it on the record.

[Yvette Cooper]

May I say to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) that I have taken interventions from many hon. Members on both sides? Given the number of people on the Government Benches who are desperate to speak in the debate, I am keen to allow them the opportunity to do so, even though they have strong disagreements with each other.

Often the opponents of previous measures have changed their minds and moved on. I hope the same will be true again. I hope that opponents today will look back in 10 years and be unable to remember what the fuss was about. Today, let us vote for people to be able to marry, for the sake of those couples who really want to wed; for the sake of the Quakers, the Unitarians and other religious organisations who want to celebrate same-sex marriage as part of our respect for freedom of faith; for the sake of equality, removing unfair discrimination and challenging prejudice; and for the sake of marriage, to keep it inclusive and in touch for the next generation. In marriage let us celebrate, not discriminate. Let us be on the right side of history. Let us vote for the Bill today.

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[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The Second Church Estates Commissioner, who has designated responsibilities in the House, will be subject to a 10-minute limit. Thereafter, a four-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches will apply.

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[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

This afternoon hundreds of Members of Parliament have come into the Chamber to discuss marriage. I wish that happened much more often, because the really big issue —the one we debate very rarely in this House, although it is an unfolding tragedy across our nation—is the collapse of family life.

I have to take issue with the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who said that family life had not fallen apart. In this country the marriage rate has almost halved since 1972, and the number of single parents has more or less doubled between 1980 and today. Four million children live apart from one or other parent, and every year 300,000 couples split up. We do not discuss that enough in this House, or what we can do to help reverse that situation and give couples the skills and support they need to make a success of their marriage and relationship. I hope this is not the last time that hundreds of Members of Parliament come together to discuss the important issues of family life. It is a huge issue that Parliament must not miss.

In his landmark speech in December 2011 at Christ Church, Oxford, the Prime Minister said that the United Kingdom was a “Christian country”. Those were his words and I was pleased to hear him say them. What we are doing this afternoon should give us pause for thought, because we will be realigning the laws of this country in a way that is different from what Christian doctrine teaches. We should take note of what the newly installed Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, said yesterday, and of what the Roman Catholic Church, the Evangelical Alliance, the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches, and many others, are saying.

Let me quote two verses from the New Testament from when Jesus was talking about marriage. He said that

“at the beginning the Creator made them male and female…For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”

That was Jesus’s definition of marriage in Matthew chapter 19.

I absolutely recognise that homosexual people want to celebrate their relationships, and that is what civil partnerships are for. All the rights and privileges of marriage are vested in civil partnerships. If civil partnerships are not sufficient, we should create a new term—call it a civil union, a lifelong union. Churches are now able to bless civil partnerships if they are willing to do so, and we have the opportunity to provide the celebration that homosexual people are looking for without changing a foundational institution of our country.

We have heard reassurances about protections, but looking at what has happened in other countries, I understand that in Denmark the protections that were promised to Churches are not being honoured and that they are being forced to perform same-sex marriages. I am worried about the legal position in the European Union, and others have mentioned the European Court of Human Rights and articles 12 and 14 of the European convention on human rights. It is possible that the situation could change. What of further redefinitions? Will this be the last redefinition of marriage? I understand that in the Netherlands and Brazil, three-way relationships are being legally recognised.

We have heard arguments from all sides, and legal opinions have been quoted this way and that. Remember, however, the case of Adrian Smith who lost his job and was dragged through the courts and had huge costs—

[Mr Speaker]

Order.

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[Mr Harris]

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He talks about the unchanging nature of marriage over thousands of years. I do not know whether he is a Christian—he has not yet got to that part—but will he have a good look at the Old Testament? King David, a man described as:

“A man after God’s own heart”,

had not one wife or two wives but many, many wives and concubines. He had children by them all and was never once criticised by the priests or the writers of the Bible. Of course marriage has changed over many thousands of years—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman but interventions must be brief.

[Dr Offord]

I am grateful for that intervention, particularly as it gives me an extra minute, but I will come to that point later.

One reason I oppose the Bill is that it will be an open-ended process, the consequences of which the Government and the hon. Gentleman do not appear to have considered. In an attempt to appeal, the Government have produced a policy on the principle of eradicating difference. The bitter irony is that it will lead only to greater inequality.

First, civil partners already have all the legal rights of marriage, which is denied to many others who cohabit. Two sisters who live together for many years cannot enter a civil partnership, but if one dies leaving the property to the other, the sister who remains is liable for full inheritance tax on the property. That would not apply to female same-sex partners. That is hardly fair, is it? As a result of the Bill, same-sex couples have a choice of seeking to get married or seeking a civil registration. A heterosexual couple would be denied the opportunity to seek a civil registration and have only one choice: marriage. That, too, is hardly fair.

However, what concerns me most is where this Bill will lead. The Government are unable to give assurances that certain scenarios will not develop. I suspect that many problems will evolve through the legal process because the judiciary will construct judgments that are contrary to the reassurances we hear in the Chamber.

Many hon. Members supported the legislation introduced by the previous Government that created civil partnerships because the consultation document—“Civil Partnership: A Framework for the Legal Recognition of Same Sex Couples”—stated:

“The Government has no plans to allow same-sex couples to marry. The proposals”

for civil registration

“are for an entirely new legal status of civil partnership”.

Just a decade later, we are in the House to discuss the matter again. When the Government say they have no plans to change the criteria for determining who can form a marriage, including a marriage between two people, their assurances are worthless. When I asked the Minister what consideration she had given to extending other forms of marriage, her response was that the law is pretty clear that marriage is between two people. Is that the same law that says that marriage is between one man and one woman? If so, another Government can simply change the definition to include as many partners as they want.

Three Members of the House have said they find it disgusting that people compare polygamy to same-sex marriage. I would challenge all three, if they had remained in the Chamber, to justify that. The assertion was particularly galling because my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) refused to take my intervention. I could have explained to him that no one has ever made that justification. For the record, I have never made that comparison, but the evidence from around the world is that, once marriage is redefined and has a flexible definition, pressure grows for further redefinition. That should come as no surprise. Several advocates of same-sex marriage openly support changing the law to permit polygamy.

In Holland, same-sex marriage was introduced in 2001. Three-way relationships have since been given legal recognition through cohabitation agreements. There have been attempts in Canada to legalise polygamy through the courts using same-sex marriage. In 2007, an appeal court in Ontario ruled that a child can legally have three parents.

Polygamy already exists in this country. The Government recognised in 2007 that there were more than 1,000 bigamous or polygamous marriages in England and Wales. That was identified by Members and peers in the House of Lords. The unintended consequence of the Bill will be allowing the introduction of polygamous marriages, as advocated last night on television by Peter Tatchell. Therefore, I will vote against the Bill on behalf of almost 1,000 of my constituents who have made clear their opposition.

Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), I am angry that I have defended people who are homosexual, including many who have left the Chamber, who then deride me as a bigot, and send me text messages saying that I am wrong just because I do not support them. I bitterly resent that.

Equality does not mean that we should treat everything the same. We certainly do not have the right to redefine marriage over the heads of our constituents.

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[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

I think you said at the beginning of the debate, Mr Speaker, that 71 Back Benchers were going to take part. If I am the 71st or thereabouts, my speech will be an action replay of many of the points that have previously been made.

I am going to oppose the Bill. On balance, I accept that evidence from the polls probably indicates that a majority in the country favour this change. However, the democratic process should protect those with deeply felt and sincerely held views that mean they cannot—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I know it has been a long debate, but the hon. Gentleman must be heard, and with courtesy, I hope.

[Martin Vickers]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

The democratic process should protect those with deeply felt and sincerely held views that mean they cannot go along with this change. In proposing it, we are alienating tens of thousands, and possibly hundreds of thousands, of our supporters, who feel threatened. Perhaps the tide of history is moving against them, but a major social change should not be pushed through with no electoral mandate. Previous speakers have referred to the contract for equalities that was published by the Conservative party three days before the election. It is disingenuous to say that that was a manifesto commitment: clearly, it was not. Very few people knew that it existed, and at that point many people had already voted by post.

I accept that the younger generation, and perhaps even the middle-aged, are more relaxed about this issue, but those in the 50 or 55-plus age group feel, to say the least, uncomfortable with the proposed changes. I suspect that few, if any, in the 50-plus age group are offering policy advice to Ministers. Had that been the case, we would probably not be in this position tonight.

The Minister said that religious organisations take different views on this, and indeed they do. It is easy to pluck out biblical references to support arguments, but politicians, even practising Christians such as myself, should be very wary about doing so. However, in one particular exchange with a constituent I was reminded of the biblical quotation,

“love is the fulfilment of the law”.

That, combined with an e-mail that I received from a young lady—a student constituent—who is in a same-sex relationship, did, indeed, make me reflect on the situation. As I have said, however, I have still come to the conclusion that I will oppose this change.

Governments must legislate to balance the different views of those over whom they rule. Put simply, by pushing ahead with this Bill without a mandate, the Government are trampling on the strongly held views of a great many people. Significant social change should be allowed to evolve. Attitudes move on and a Bill such as this may well be accepted in the not-too-distant future, but now is not the time. The very least the Government could do, as has already been suggested, is allow us more time—they should stop, pause, reflect and give more time.

It is unfortunate that the media have represented the Conservative party as split. I can assure them that, if they visited the streets of Cleethorpes, they would see that people from across the political spectrum are very wary and concerned about the proposals. I join those colleagues who have urged the House to vote against the Bill.

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[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On the Floor of the House today, we heard many times that the Bill should be committed to a Committee of the whole House. The Minister was asked whether that was possible, and he gave his reasons why he believed not. For clarification, Mr Speaker, and before we vote on the programme motion, is it possible to have split Committee proceedings, with some upstairs, facilitating what the Minister would like to happen, and some on the Floor of the House?

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her attempted point of order. Her point might be interesting, but that does not render it a point of order on which I can rule. Her view, no doubt informed by a close reading of Standing Order No. 84A(2), will assuredly guide her and perhaps other right hon. and hon. Members on how to vote on the programme motion, which is about to be moved by or on behalf of the Minister.

MARRIAGE (SAME SEX COUPLES) BILL (PROGRAMME)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill:

Committal

1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on 12 March 2013.

3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

4. Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading shall be taken in two days in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.

5. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the second day.

6. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on the second day.

7. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

8. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mark Lancaster.)